Talk:List of country-name etymologies

I restored the latest version that included the etymologies for Canadian provinces because they weren't listed alphabetically like countries but as sub-points to Canada, just like provinces of Denmark, the Netherlands & Britain were included under their respective country name. I believe that it's a good thing to include province names here, too, because a) some Canadian provinces are several times as big as European countries and b) some people already consider their province as independent or would like it to be, e. g. Quebec, Alberta. Junesun 07:52 Mar 23, 2003 (UTC)

Link for reference to Bharat's etymology. Gyan 00:30 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)

Several questions:

Why are there two entries for Albania?
It was my understanding from reading years ago that Egypt is a Greek word meaning "The House of Ptah" (ecos being "house" in Greek)
Nohon or Nihon?
What is Seborga?

Taku - NEVER delete other people's Talk comments. If you have a problem with my question, discuss it. It's an innocent question, and I don't appreciate your deleting it. -- Zoe

Albania - the list has only just been alphabetised, and the second person to add an "Albania" entry probably didn't notice the first one. I don't know which is accurate, so I left both.

Egypt - Not sure - more research needed

Nohon - almost certainly a typo for Nihon. This probably should be put under the etymology of the English name "Japan" (which I understand comes from the Chinese name for the islands...)

Seborga - a tiny Italian principality. Not a UN nation, but claims its own sovereignty and mints its own currency...

Adding Canada's provinces is IDIOTIC. Why dont you go ahead and add their counties too - Im sure some are larger than Liechtenstein and Luxembourg. While youre at it, name all the primary administrative divisions of ALL countries. They should be removed - Immediately. Nihon was correct the first time. Nippon is a sinisation of the original. Deleting the passages in the 'Yemen' entry was uncalled for - the 'lucky' etymology deserves someone writng why its supposed to be lucky. Furthermore you had no right to delete Seborga, since it is officially recognised by Monaco. Albania doesnt mean "land of the (white) mountains" - it means land of the mountain people. Why did you eliminate the fact that Hungary - land of the 10 spears was a reference to an alliance of ten tribes? are you stupid? - There was no reason to add "named after the mongols" for mongolia - you might as well add the same such line for all the other entries. Sudan doesnt mean "blacks" - it means, "land of the blacks". The 'arya' as in 'free' or 'noble' is well-known as the correct etymology for Iran. Why this "sons of sun" garbage? Actic isnt a country - its a type of climate. - tridesch

Tridesch, I suggest you be more careful in your choice of words. My main source is the Berlitz "Encyclopedia of language"(translated literally from German, the English title *might* be a bit different), which is a standard book for students of linguistics. I'm not going to add Canadian counties or German states because neither do they seek independence nor are they big. No offense to Luxembourg and the like but when saying that Canadian provinces are several times as big as European countries, I was referring to the average European country. E. g. Quebec is SEVEN times as big as the UK. Besides I believe that these etymologies are quite important because they can't be found on the English internet - try a Google search. I didn't delete anything related to Nihon/Nippon, Yemen, Seborga or Hungary, see the page history. My IQ is quite high, thank you. The etymology of "Albania" refers just to white mountains, not people. Check your source. The Monghol tribe was just one tribe in Ancient Mongolia, so it's the same kind of generalisation as in "Nicaragua" for example. Not obvious. You're wrong about Sudan: the Arabic words "bilad-as-sudan" means "land of the blacks", whereas the word "sudan" just means "blacks". "Bilad-as" is a generic thing that is put in front of most Arabic country names when you build them from the name of the inhabitants, similar to the Chinese "guo2" (国), although that is put AFTER the name. Check [this history] of the word "Aryan". It's from the American Heritage dictionary, also a renowned source. Amongst other things, it says that "Aryan", apart from the strict meaning "noble", referred to "the upper crust of ancient Indian society". This part of society referred to themselves as "sons of the sun" much like Egyptian pharaohs did. The Arctic is the area around the North Pole of our planet. Although it isn't considered a country - just like Antarctica - it is huge and it's inhabitated. Finally, may I suggest that you adopt a user name, if they haven't kicked you out yet? I like to know who I am 'talking' to. - Junesun 08:59 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

I have a degree in history - Mongols are Mongols are Mongolians. No need to refer back to obscure tribes, everyone in the country speaks the same language.

Not true. Only about 90% of today's population speak Mongolian (including those who learnt it as a second language). Besides that wasn't the case when Mongolia got its name - in the 13th century, when Genghis Khan united the Mongolian tribes (I'll use "Mongolian" to refer to inhabitants of Mongolia and "Monghols" to Genghis Khan's tribe). Genghis Khan named all of his empire after his tribe, although there were hundreds of other tribes even in the area that is now called "Mongolia". You're committing a dangerous mistake by assuming that the name which nowadays refers to all those living in Mongolia meant the same people earlier. The meaning of words changes. For a different example: you could say that the name "Germany" means "land of the Germans", ignoring the fact that at the time it was coined ("Germania" by the Romans), there was no such thing as "Germans", there were hundreds of tribes like Cheruscans, Langobards, Vandals, Albians just to name a few and they couldn't even be put into a category like "Germans" because they fought against each other and some allied with Rome while others fought the Romans and they had different cultures.

I think ill just as "Britain - land of the British" and Italy "land of the Italians", and "Upper Volta" land of the "Upper Voltans" - then everyone will think sooooo much of the list. THe difference between Mongolia and Nicaragua is that not many people realize that the Nicarao were a native people and most wouldnt have any idea what the etymology is.

As for the British, Italians and 'Upper Voltans': see above. To me, most of the explanations on this list are obvious. To other people, they might not. Some people might think "Côte d'Ivoire"(ivory coast) has a self-explaining etymology, others might not. Some might know about the relation of "Zambia" and the river "Zambesi", or the Nicaraos and Nicaragua, others might not. How many people, do you estimate, know that Genghis Khan was nearly killed in disputes with MONGOLIAN tribes who hated the MONGOLS (to which he belonged) before he could set out to conquer the known world?

As for Sudan, etymologically the name (as is the case with say Australia) resulted from, as you said, the contaction of a whole phrase "Bilad as Sudan" - youre not helping anyone, and in fact, youre misleading them by leaving out reference to it. Is the toponym derived REALLY from "Blacks" or does it mean ETYMOLOGICALLY - "land of the blacks" - This is an etymological list! Youre etymology for Iran gives the wrong impression, when it removes ENTIRELY any reference to the fact that Arya means "noble" but includes some trivial/irrelevant crap about solar bodies - one can imagine that they may have very well referred to themselves as ? "sons of the sun" whatever name they schose for their country - Am i wrong here?

As you can see in the version of the page I submitted after reading your first comments, I explained the Sudan / Bilad-as-Sudan and Aryan difference. From a linguist's point of view it is WRONG to say that "Sudan" means "land of the blacks". The "land of" part got completely lost in the English name. The ones not familiar with the Arabic language would have a hell of a hard time trying to see "land of" in the word "Sudan", that might lead to wrong conclusions about the Arabic language.

The Arctic isnt now, nor has it ever been a COUNTRY - (THIS IS A LIST OF """"COUNTRIES"""" - why dont you add Boreal, Tundra, Savanna, and "quite pleasant" to the list? As for Canada - you're wrong. Am glad you mentioned German bundeslaender - since places like Saxony and Thuringia have far more right to being added to the list as "COUNTRIES" than regions which have never been recognised as such like "British Columbia" and Ontario. Its a slippery slop when you get into adding provinces - you will the list as long as an entire encyclopedia - though i realize youd like to decide which administrative districts get added to a list of "COUNTRIES" based on your feeling about "size" - Which people in Quebec and Alberta dont realise that their territories are part of Canada?

I explained my criteria for adding entries to this list to you already. Canadian provinces enjoy much more autonomy than German Bundesländer, they are much larger and many of them strive to be independent. Their status is countries is certainly more justified than the one of Italian villages or those newly-founded countries with virtually no own space and recognition only by others like them (countries of the so-called "5th world"). I won't let this list grow too long. If I wanted to add the etymologies for the states of the USA for example, I'd create an extra page and just refer to it here.

Its people who writer on things which about which they have NO personal knowledge who should be, as you said "kicked out". Who cares if you know who youre talking to - my opinions are apparently correct. I added 9/10's of all the entries to this list from the time i formed it and only once - in the case of "holland" did i appear to give a possibly wrong derevation.

This is an open-source community. If you want a copyright for what you wrote, make a homepage or write a book. On a single day I contributed as many entries as everybody else before but I don't make as much fuss about it because I'm quite content to contribute the things I know to Wikipedia, a collection of wisdom from thousands of sources.

Oh, and - "white mountains" is redundant. While your sitting in 'linguistics class' - maybe you flip through and look up "ALP" in something. Albania was named by mountaineers who descended from inland to a coast which lower and still populated by people speaking vulgar latin - the genesis of the toponym occured when the new population claimed the land for themselves. Now Albania encompasses both the old inland area and the coast. Check out the book "kosovo" by noel something or another - balkan studies was one of my concentrations.

- Tridesch 08:59 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

Nice and pretty, why don't you explain Albania's etymology at the list?? Especially explain why the Latin has to be translated as "mountain people" and not "white (mountains)", just because the people who named it came from the mountains. While you're at it, explain why Guanahani should be translated as "Columbus' island" because he named it. - Junesun 16:25 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)

Is this a List of country name etymologies or a List of country name English language etymologies? After reading the article, it is unclear to me. Kingturtle 16:45 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

Nothing you've written isnt going to change the fact that Canada's provinces arent countries. Who are you to even try judging an administrative distict's size so you can deem it a "country"? Doesnt anyone else agree here? They're not countries. This guy will eventually have an etymology added for every subdivision on earth, and the page will be of no use to anyone.

90% mongolian - oh puh-lease. Present day mongolia is the inheritor of the legacy of the mongol empire. That s a KNOWN fact. Also, at times, when the ancient romans referred to Germania (from the germanic root by the way "Spear men" they werent referring unknown groups which we cannot trace into modern times. Youre argument is empty. How many frnch men do you think fought against other frenchmen during the 100 years war before the realm was united - does it make the etymollogy of the current country name other than what it is? Anyone else, please feel free to chime in here - this guy is totally wrong.

As i said this is an etymological list - is is incorrect for a linguist to add an entry for sudan that says "blacks" and not "land of the blacks", since the concern isnt word to word translation, but historical development of the name.

Oh, how nice of you not to add separate entries for each state of the US - gag. What is it about them that makes them inferior to nowheresville canada?

Again it isnt white and mountain - the root meant simply mountain, and in other senses white.

Despite your high opinions of your additions, there garbaage. - and cant possible be maintained.

tridesch

The Montenegro item has 143 words and contains what seems like an editorial?? Trimming is needed. --Menchi 01:59 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Doesn't "Franks" refer to them calling themselves "free men"? Originally Franc, which also became Franche-Comte, franchise, etc. That's what I've always heard, at least. Adam Bishop 02:29 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

But that is what it says. Are you thinking about the two "land of"? yeah, that seems a bit redundant to have translation of plain English. --Menchi 04:09 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It didn't say that when I wrote that comment, though :) Someone changed it after I posted, I guess. Adam Bishop 04:30 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)

For the record, this page is quite silly, and definetly misleading. The etymologies for frex. Finland, are, have been, and will always be higly dubious. There really is no accepted etymology, but an endless plethora of speculations. Just the speculations for "Finland" and "Suomi" would fairly presented be as long as the whole article is currently. I am not saying that this page should go, but it definitely has some issues. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 04:30 23 Jul 2003 (UTC)

True. Brewer's Names is more equivocal about most of its place-name etymologies. I tried to correct the article but got reverted (rudely) by the original contributor, user:Junesun, who I suspect typed the whole lot in from a list of unreliable folk etymologies. -- Heron

Each of the entry should add what language the etymology was based on. For example, Philippine and Costa Rica was definitely not based on English. 67.117.82.5 23:41, 24 Sep 2003 (UTC)

The etymology given For nauru cant possibly be correct. I mean its one thing for some silly travel sight to tell a joke about the name Nauru matching the word for laughter in Finnish, but come on...

Anyway, i added that the etymologies for Finland (in eng) and Suomi arent really known. I dont think i reverted it to anything, i just complied w your request to add the element of doubt. This page isnt mine anyway - if you know of an etymology in the list thats just 'folk etymology',then thats what your keyboard is for. -- User:tridesh

I am removing A third possibility is that it derives from the name of the god "Bharat", brother of the famous god Rama. from the India bullet. There is nothing in Ramayana and its commentaries to suggest that Rama's half-brother gave his name to the country. The only legend that is popularly quoted is Bharat(India) originating from the name of Dushyanata's son. (This, surprisingly was quoted second among the three in the article and I am not very sure about the veracity of the first too, though I am reasonably sure about the third NOT being the source.) chance 11:11, Dec 11, 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure about Portugal coming (in part) from "the Greek cale, meaning beautiful) I've always read that it comes from the Latin portus cale, meaning warm harbor, because the ports along its coast were free of ice year round.

Brazil - from the brazilwood tree, which in turn was named because its reddish wood was the color of red-hot embers (brasil in Portuguese).

this is a myth in Brazil; that was probben not to be truth. Fortunnaly, Portugal saves documents from that time, the reason for the name was, how we say in Portuguese "Aquela terra era um brasil" or "that land was very hot" or "...redhot". Portuguese peoele only give the name to the lands they've discovered from a saint name, when they've got no more names of that kind they give a name to the find land with the most proeminent characteristic.

red-hot embers in portuguese is "brasa" or "braseiro", not "brasil".

For Canada that was not a joke, that's also the truth. Canada means "Nothing here", may seem a joke or offensive, but when Portugal sailed to the west, they find north america very dall and different from the lands they've discovered. Portugal had explored all Africa, Asia and Brazil. When they sailed to North America, they've think that it was very cold and with unpleasent weather, that didnt assembled in anything to Portugal or to the lands they've discovered. They signed the all continent as "Cá nada" (nothing here), because they were not interrested in that lands. That's why there's no portuguese colonies in North America, altought there are all over the world. The name was in portuguese secret maps (the only country at the time that produced believal maps). A portuguese saylor selled (by treason) it to the French and they speeled the name as "Ca nadá" (like the french do). I'm sorry if you find it offensive. But that's the truth. Do you thnik that came from a local tribe? HAH!

If you don't believe me, please try to read from independent and historical sources.

This world is full of myths; even a myth that Portugal is a rebel province of Spain; but in fact, Portugal has almost 900 years old, and Spain 500. That's how we see that the world dont know nothing about us. in fact, Portugal was a rebel County of the extinct kingdom of Leon.

Camaroon comes from the word "camarões"(that's how we call that country), that means "Shrimp". "Prawns" in Portuguese is "Gambas".

Pedro from Portugal

Romania: A neologism coined after the 19th century unification of Moldavia and Wallachia.

That is false. Romanians always refered to themselves as "Români" (word used mostly in North) or "Rumâni" (mostly in South). Here's a document from 1521 [1] that writes about "Tara Rumâneasca" (Rumanian Land/Country). Bogdan | Talk 20:12, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)~

No, YOUR argument is false. Readers should be aware that Bogdan is a 'journalist' born in communist romania who regularly vandalizes pages concerning Romanian history in order to replace the Vlach migration with continuity. Um Bogdan? - has noone told you that all the modern latin roots in Romanian were added from 19th century French dictionaries?

The changes to "Germany" were executed by an imbecile.- and so im changing it back.

Tridesch

Dubious etymologies

1. The entry on Egypt is very misleading. The Ancient Egyptians called the country Khemet, meaning Black Land, from the colour of the mud brought down the Nile each year at flood time. The Greeks called the country Aiguptos, which I'm fairly certain comes from the Greek aigupios meaning vulture - Egypt being the Land of the Vulture to the Greeks. I don't think the Greeks would have named the country after anything to do with Ptah. The modern Egyptians call the country al-Misr (Jumhuriyat Misr al-Arabiya), which I think means "the country across the border" (from Arabia) in Arabic. Unless anyone violently disagrees with me I will change the entry. Adam 15:29, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

2. I'm pretty certain the entry for "Germany" is also wrong. Germany is not a German name, it is a Latin name, Germania, given to the area east of the Rhine by the Romans. The name means "neighbouring," as in, the land neighbouring Roman Gaul. It is related to the English word germane, meaning related or relevant to. I will check further on this. Adam 12:02, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

3. We are told that Montenegro was named by the Venetians, and then that "Montenegro" isn't Italian. What is it, Chinese? Last time I was in Venice they spoke Italian there. Adam 14:51, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It should be "Monte nero" in Italian. It could be in an Italian dialect or a local Romance (maybe Dalmatian or some old Romanian dialect). Bogdan | Talk 16:44, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

4. We are told that Portugal comes from Porto cale, the cale being from kali in Greek. There were no Greek colonies on the Atlantic coast so this is highly dubious. Adam 14:51, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

It could be "Porto" + "Gaul". There were some Gaulish/Celtic tribes nearby, see Galicia. Bogdan | Talk 16:44, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but isn't Allemagne (Germany) derived from the Alemannen tribe? 82.82.125.13 22:09, 10 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone else think the Moa link on the Samoa entry is drawing a very long bow? Moriori 21:30, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

After googling for a while, I see it was more than a long bow. Inaccurate, so I will delete link. The def is suspect too. Moriori 23:32, Feb 13, 2004 (UTC)

A prank removed from the article:

Samoa: "Sacred Moa Preserve", after the Moa, a native hen-like fowl. In legend a sacred hen enclosure "Sa-moa" was created by King Lu. After battles to protect it, he had a son he named "Samoa" who became the progenitor of the Moa clan, who came to dominate the island of Manu'a and the whole Samoan area.

There was no King Lu with son Samoa. Mikkalai 00:28, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It may not be a prank, but misinterprertation. See http://www.samoa.co.uk/creation.html I don't know enough about this to fix it. Moriori 03:16, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

With all due respect, where is the Big Chicken Moa on this page? A prank is a prank is a prank, even if it is based on a native legend.

That was the reason Tagaloa, the messenger, went down to ask Night and Day in the first Heavens (if they had any children).

Then answered Night and Day, "Come now; there remain four boys that are not yet appointed, Manu'a, Samoa, the Sun, and the Moon."

These are the boys that originated the names of Samoa and Manu'a; these two were the children of Night and Day. The name of the one is Sa-tia-i-le-moa, 'obstructed by the chest'; the meaning of which is this:- the boy seemed as if he would not be born, because he was caught by the chest; therefore it was he was called Sa-tia-i-le-moa; that is, Samoa; the other was born with one side abraded ('manu'a' ); then said Day to Night "Why is this child so greatly wounded?" therefore the child was called `Manu'a-tele'.

Mikkalai 10:05, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

With all due respect, it was not necessarily a prank. The person who posted the original definition way well have been genuine. See http://www.janesoceania.com/samoa_origin/ . Moriori 18:51, Feb 14, 2004 (UTC)

That's the idea of a good prank: to make people believe. The article you pointed out says it very mildly: "are fantastic and very amusing". I am a simple man an read it: "prank". And the version that was put into here sounded like a mock of all these legends concocted to amuse tourists.

I suggest the following entry: "Origin unknown. Numerous legends differ greatly and are not very convincing." Mikkalai 22:59, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have e-mailed the Samoan govt asking whether there is a policy re origin of the name Samoa (and what is is). Will advise if I have any joy. Cheers Mikkalai. Moriori 22:50, Feb 15, 2004 (UTC)

Coherence with the main articles

I suggest to put into this list only those explanations that are present in the main articles, where someone knowledgeable can verify them. This article is poorly visible and hence and easy prey for pranksters. Mikkalai 23:03, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I looked briefly into a couple counries I know, and immediately found numerous discrepancies. I am going to cross-cut-and-paste, with reference to this page, for consistency. Mikkalai 23:13, 14 Feb 2004 (UTC)

After more thinking, I am inclined to suggest killing this page at all. Unlike many other lists, it does not *organize* data, rather disorganizes it by creating the possibility of divergence: if something is updated, it must be changed in two places. Which of the following pages do we really need? -- List of presidents of states, List of capitals, List of longest rivers by country, List of population sizes, List of countries that have a synonym of 'country' in the country name... Mikkalai

Russia

Please don't hurry here. It is an apparent blunder to derive "Russia" from "Kievan Rus'". Let me dig a bit. Mikkalai 01:51, 20 Feb 2004 (UTC)

India

was Bharatha the half brother of lord Rama, namesake of the hindu holy book Ramayana???

yes, infact there are 3 Bharatas in mythology, but I'm not clear about which of them India has been named. See Bharata. Jay 14:12, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

India is named after Bharata, the son of Dushyanta and Shakuntala. -- Paddu 14:13, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Ok, sorry for that. It could also be Bharata, the son of Rishabha, who is believed to have reborn as Jada Bharata. -- Paddu 08:55, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hellas, allegedly means "land of light", which is an extremely dubious claim, given that this resembles no Greek words for "land" or "light".

Actually, Hêlios meant "the sun". See Helios.Bogdan | Talk 19:10, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I changed it. -- BCorr|Брайен 13:24, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

An anon IP added this to the Germany entry: " Also said to be the name of a Celtic tribe that lived in the area before Teutonic settlement. (EDIT NOTE: Does anyone else know anymore about this?)" -- BCorr¤Брайен 13:06, Mar 24, 2004 (UTC)

And I removed the editorial comment: "This word may come from the Germanic "gar" ('spear') plus the Latin and Germanic "man" ("land of the spear men") or the Latin word "germanus", meaning "brother" or "neighbor" (i.e. neighbor to the Celts). Note that these are "folk etymologies" and cannot be substantiated through any scholarly source." -- BCorr|Брайен 13:24, May 9, 2004 (UTC)

Andorra comes from "Anderexo", found in a old text. In basque, andere: lady

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1. Germany - The entry of "spear men" for Germany is correct. This has been known for centuries. Germanic tribes often put the word "spear" into their ethnonym - If youd read Beowulf, the very first most basic piece of English literature, you might know this. "brother, neighbor", in places the Roman Empire never reached far even on the Balitc sea, thats crazy. It's not a folk etymology.

2. Portugal - Greek roots abound in Latin. Check a basic etymological dictionary. Greek was also the most commonly second learned language in Rome.

3. Samoa - Ive no idea as to whether the Samoa entry was correct. I pulled the info off a German-language website. I figured it had a good chance of being correct because Germany colonized Samoa.

Anyway, even if false, you shouldnt just let the Samoa space remain blank. You can express the doubts you have.

4. Montenegro - Venetian is a recognized historical language - you can find dictionaries. The language has dissappeared under pressure from the highly related (Tuscan) Italian. But then Bogdan never new that - not surprising.

5. I am sick of Bogdans continuous vandalism. - I didnt create this page knowing it would be taken over by the Romanian neo-fascist movement. He puts people on Hard-Block from posting anything if they post anything related to Romanian history that he doesnt like.

Tridesch, insulting someone is not a good way of solving conflicts. If you don't agree with something I wrote, simply modify it, but explain the reasons why you did it in the talk page.

And why do you think I am a neo-fascist ? Bogdan | Talk 10:44, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

6. I dont think this list should be used in a political manner. Palestine is on the list even though the language of this page, English, is not the official language of any country recognizing a sovereign Palestinian state - what's more, no country on earth recognizes a sovereign Palestinian geographic entity. Fine - put Palestine in if youre going to be that way, but then I submit that you may have to contemplate adding all the planet's recognized sovereign territories. There are about 45 of them which are not currently on the list.

20 Greek recognized "Sovereign" monastic states of Mount Athos (albeit with Greece 'administering' the combined territory include: Chelandari, Zographou, Vatopedi, Pantokrator, Stavronitika, Koutloumousiou, Iverion, Philoheou, Esphigmenou, Karakalou, Great Lavra, Saint Paul, Dionysiou, Gregoriou, Simonopetra, Xeropotamou, Panteleimon, Xenophontos, Docheiariou, and Konstamonitou

22 "Sovereign" Swiss cantons Bern , Valais, Vaud, Ticino, Sankt Gallen, Zurich, Freiburg, Luzern, Aargau , Uri, Thurgau , Schwyz , Jura , Neuchatel , Solothurn, Unterwalden , Glarus , Basel, Appenzell, Schaffhausen, Geneva , and Zug

It has been noted that certain the channel islands and lundy are feudal possessions of the English crown but may have inherent sovereignty.

The village of seborga has declared its independance - laughable had not Monaco GRANTED it official recognition.

Tridesch

Brunei

There's an etymology at Brunei Direct, but I shan't put it into the article without confirmation. Anyway, I don't understand how Barunah (said to mean 'excellent') can be from classical Malay, and Barunai (said to be from Varuna, whatever that means) can be from Sanskrit, as the two languages have no known common origin. There's more at Brunet, beginning with the 6th century Chinese name Puni, which had mutated to Berunai by the 14th century. This page says that another Chinese spelling as early as 518 AD was Bun-lai. -- Heron 08:25, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)

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Adding all of these non-sovereign territories is the beginning of a slippery slope. Before you know it, someone will try restoring the Provinces of Canada and then who knows, obscure counties in Poland.

Tridesch

...

nope, those Canadian provinces can go in the subnational toponymy page. Territories/colonies are disctinct from regions/counties/provinces, they are halfway between them and a fully soverign nation. Most are near independent anyway. If anyone wnats to make a slippery slope out of it then their entires will jsut be moved to the proper page.

Yugoslavia

note to the person who put 'Yugoslavia' as a proper entry: all former names go under the modern-day equivelent country with a double-star (**). In this case it goes under Serbia and Montenegro, the 'successor state' to Yugoslavia, containing the former capital Belgrade, retaining the name for a while etc.

- sdrawkcab

The Federal Republic of Yugoslavia is now called Serbia and Montenegro. Note that the term Yugoslavia (see page) was not coined to mean this country, but the country that included the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Republic of Macedonia, Serbia and Montenegro and Slovenia! FRY choosed to call itself that way when the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia dissolved in 1990s! So the origin of the name should be listed by itself. Any objections to move it back? --Romanm 14:39, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

actually, you've made a good point. Yugoslavia is different from, say, Transjordan or Dahomey.

It isn't my list, go ahead and move it back. -sdrawkcab

OK, I did. --Romanm 13:57, 2 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A question about Qatar

I found some info, but I'm not sure if it counts as a proper etymology.

"In the 5th century BC the Greek historian Herodotus referred to the seafaring Canaanites as the original inhabitants of Qatar. Further, the geographer Ptolemy showed in his map of the Arab World "Qatara" as believed to refer to the Qatari town of "Zubara", which has acquired the fame of being one of the most important trading ports in the Gulf region at the time."

This is from an official Qatari governemnt site. Is it suitable for adding this as it is to the list, or is it to vague on the meaning etc.

- sdrawkcab

I'd go with too vague; I don't see how you can even write "Qatara" in Greek. Needs more research, at least. Sadly, the Arabia section of Pliny doesn't seem to be online yet. - Mustafaa 07:44, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Tajikistan toponymy - mired in confusion

I've been looking around and have found no less than three seperate and disticnt explanations for the meaning of Tajikistan.

1. from a Turkic root tasi meaning 'Muslim'. The name means 'land of the Tajiks.' (the one on this list)

2. In Persian, taj means "crown" and ik means "head," so tajik means "a person wearing a crown on his head." Tajiks were originally Persians. [2] [3]

3. Then there's the Tajiks. They take their name from the Sanskrit word tajika "Persian". The Tibetans also call Persia sTag.Dzig (Pronounced "Tajik") but in Tibetan this means "tiger-leopard". This could explain why so many Tibetan legends about their western neighbors feature tiger/leopard combinations. It hardly explains why, in some old Persian epics, the hero wears a leopard-skin cap and a tiger-skin coat. Just to complicate matters further, some say that tajik originally referred to the Tay, who were not Persians at all but Arabs. [4]

They can't all be right. What should the entry under Tajikistan be - all three? None? The page [5] n makes an interesting point about the Tajik flag featuring a crown.

- sdrawkcab

Unless there are some major outbreaks of wars, the list seems almost complete. While, I'll pat myself on the back for having written most of it, i've done some research on the Germany 'spear men' derevation that indeed makes it look false. Oh well, mea culpa.

On the other hand, I must strongly object to the renewed addition of subnational entities, the so-called "territoties". Its absolutley ridiculous, and i really didnt get the "halfway beteeen" subnational and independent argument. What standard are you using to judge? Who ARE you judge? They either form part of one country's sovereign geo-graphical extent or not. They really should be taken out immediately. We wanted a country name wetymology page, not a country and its subnational territoties page - youre dilluting what the page is about with extraneous nonsense. Why dont you wait until Baker island and all the other "halfway" territories are recognized by a single country as soveeign before adding them? Its really insane. A regular province or state which could seceed whenever its inhabitants are annoyed enough is less of one of your "halfway" territories than some island with no resources and money which would never be able to seceed?

Tridesch

reply

I added the territories/colonies, and they ar ebased on those listed in the authoritative CIA world fact book. You seem to view these territories as almost non-entities that shouldn't be on the list. Let's remember the world when it largely carved into colonial empires. Would you then not have included all the African colonies (or anywhere else) as seperate entries? Of course not. They'd get listed - the same applies to all the various colonies that still exist today. Sure, most may be obscure islands or so forth, but it doens't matter. There's a lot of difference bewteen, say, the Caymans and Shropshire.

youre reply doesn actually resond to my point. The CIA list was apparently WAS NOT (and i dont know what the title of it may have been) a list of sovereign states, such as those THIS list was dedicated to listing.

As far as colonial africa, lets not have you twist the reality of that. A colony or "territory" is a colony or territory", and a sovereign state is a sovereign state. Someone (obviously an idiot at that since the category is very open-ended) has created an etymological list for subnational entities already.

What does the CIA have to do with anything - it has an actual interest in listing subnational entities because it was asked to provide additional insite into geo-politcal questions which arent necessarily sovereignty or recognition-of sovereinty based - we just wanted etymologies of actual countries.

Its really a black and white issue - recognised states versus territories you feel are halfway there.

You are using very very subjective judgements - How bout this? - any province not a under the general law for the majority of administrative divisions. What about adding the District of Columbia to the list next? What about Corsica or Martinique - theyre not really in France and the corsicans are always blowing things up in their independance struggle - Do you think France is going to give up island #1 where one of its great emperor was born or island #2 lying closer to Paris Texas than Paris France where a French Empress was born? Probably Not. Are Navessa and Wake island halfway independent of the US - Hell will have frozen before the US 1 gives up these islands or 2 takes a hands off approach in their administration.

Caymans and Shropshire - what ABOUT those British counties closer to London. Youll find that several of the ones on Great Britain itself have attempted at one point or another to seceed from Britain over the past several centuries while the Caymans never have.

Even the best political scientists couldnt describe a dividing line between special area and general district the way you presume to. Our measuring stick, the measuring stick used in international interactions among countries is whether the state is recognized.

Whatsmore, if you allow the Caymans someone will soon find reason to add Shropshire.

tridesch

RE:

the situation is like this: there are two main international toponymy lists on WKPDA - 1. the country one and 2. the subnational one. The subnational one deals with cities and counties/regions - areas that are a undeniably integral parts of their home country. now you can't tell me that the Caymans, the Falklands or Gibralter form an integral parts of Britain. Or that Baker Island, Northern Marianas etc. are integral parts of the USA. They are political areas defined differently from the subnational areas of each country. Corsica, for instance, is more of a county then a territory - subantional page.

How are you defining integral? - any part that couldnt be lost? - Thats silly. International relations, as a most basic presumtion, holds that sovereigties are stable (even when theyre not). I dont know if it makes sense, but I have a backround in accounting, and its the same with corporations - you assume in all financial calculations before dissolution that the company is a going interest, no matter what your hunch concerning the future is. Are you using strict language parsing - if so, and once again, the capital of the US is not a State - how could it form part of the "United States".

Im thinking the word "integral" has no place; that the concept of 'sovereign authority' is more useful. Which government will respond if the Falklands, Caymans, or Gibraltar are ever threatened. Thats right, The United Kingdom will respond - and has. Is Wales a county?, Scotland? What about holding a microscope under each county's constitutional law to decide when, according to your POV, a land has sufficient "home rule" to make it into your list of countries.

Which government was apprehensive about the Faroes possible seceeding in the last decade, but then, when it turned out the Faroes had massively overspent and were de facto bankrupt, had to bail them out - It was Denmark.

The geographical extent of the planet is divided under presiding sovereign authorities, each comprising holding legal imperium - the Caymans, Gibraltar, and Falkland are NOT among them. In fact, I know that at least, in Gibraltar and Falkland, the populations have signalled that they have no desire to removed from the British sovereignty.

A country is either independent or not.

Your expanded list is full of implied value jugments based on personal conceptions of

you said "more of a county than a territory", I challenge you to write an extensive explanation of what "more of" means.

tridesch

The Country-name etymology list is just that, a list of country names. I dont know what country your from, but i dont think in colloquial english usage that you could get away with saying "The falklands" are a county.

Which New Bedford?

Entry on Baker Island reads:

Baker Island (territory of the United States of America): named after Michael Baker, of New Bedford, who claimed to have discovered it in 1832 (it had actually been discovered before then).

Which New Bedford is being referenced here? There are multiple places with this name. A cursory web search failed to reveal the answer. Kevyn 11:26, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I've no idea to be honest. I got the info from 'Jane's Oceanaia' webapage.

- sdrawkcab

Haven't you guys read "Moby Dick"? The New Bedford referenced here is obviously New Bedford, Massachusetts, one of greatest sailing cities in the world and indeed the world capital of whaling in the 19th century. Pasquale 09:29, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Etymology of Croatia

An interesting message on "cybalist" on this (maybe the meaning should be added to this page): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/3009

This etymology is dubious at best. Indeed, like the Serbs, the Croats were originally tribal subdivisions of the Sarmatians or the Scythians, both of which were Iranian-speaking. The Sarmatians were known to the Greeks as Sarmatae or Sauromatae. Their major tribal groups were the Alani, Taiphali, Iazyges, and Roxolani. The reason Croats, Serbs, and other Sarmatian tribes became Slavic-speaking is that only the ruling elite of these tribes was actually of Iranian stock. The rest of the populace consisted of a Slavic-speaking subaltern class of farmers and servants. Eventually, the ruling elite lost its language and adopted the language of the populace.

The claim that *sarmat- is parallel to *xarwat-, being in fact the same name in two different Indo-Iranian languages: an "s-language" (Indic) and an "x-language" (Iranian) is, in my opinion, preposterous. How did the Iranian Sarmatae end up with an Indic form of the same name as their Croatian subtribe, if they were Iranian-speaking? Note that Iranian-speaking tribes, whether Scythian or Sarmatian, had long held sway in the Eastern European steppes. And, even though recent scholarship has identified an ancient Indic component in the so-called "farming Scythian tribes" (not actually Scythian) west and east of the Sea of Azov (respectively, the Sindoi and the Maeotae), the latter's influence was minor, in that they were subjects of the Scythians, and it is highly unlikely that they would have trasmitted to the Greeks an Indic form of an ethnic name which the Croatian subtribe would have kept in its Iranian form.

The message on "cybalist" is somewhat misleading when it says that an Iranian etymology doesn't mean that "Croatians are of Scythian stock". It all depends of what you mean by that. Their ruling class certainly was of Iranian-speaking stock, just as the ruling class of the Slavic Bulgarians was Bulgar, i.e. related to the Huns and Khazars. The same message is however correct in debunking "the Arachosia story" as a romantic, nationalistic myth. The Sarasvati-Arachosia-Hrvat connection is in fact not just "arbitrary", but simply fantastic. While the origin of *xUrvat- is most probably Iranian, the proposed etymology from *xar-wa(n)t- 'having many women, abounding in women' (like the connection with Sarmatae) remains as yet unconvincing (although I have to say it's got one thing going for it: the apparent connection to the myth of the Amazons!).

Pasquale 19:34, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As far as Belarus, I took changed the "south-west" in the reference to Black Russia back to simple 'western'. I think that in context, if you call the old Yatvingia region of Belarus 'Southwest' your implying there is some other part to the west, like 'northwest'. If you look at a map, youll see that's not really the case.

Otherwise im happy with the work done changing my recent input - i think things have been going quite constructively. The only problem is the continued presense of the sub-national entities. Perhabs as you edit, you will notice the wanring concerning the size of the page. It is already over the limit, which wouldnt be such a sticking point if so many of the entries werent even real countries.

I still have enormous doubts about the derivation of Holland to Holt. What reason would ancient Germanic tribes have had to name a once barren treeless wasteland after wood? I guarrantee you, there were no trees then, and there are barely any now, in modern times just agricultural flatland.

As far as Croatia and Serbia and their Sarmation connexion, I think this deserves attention. Ha ha, but its a question that wont be solved in our lifetimes.

Tridesch

I am baffled by some of your etymologies, for example, that Persian Gurj is derived from a term meaning 'mountainous'. You should at least say WHAT that term is and IN WHAT LANGUAGE it means 'mountainous', don't you think? Otherwise, in my opinion, it's just best to say "etymology unknown". As for the subnational entities, if any still remain, I agree they should be moved to List of subnational name etymologies. Finally, I am intrigued by what you say about Holland. How do we know that it was treeless, say, two thousand years ago? I'd like to know because, linguistically speaking, "holt" + "land" still seems to be the strongest hypothesis. Pasquale 18:30, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Guri" is PIE for mountain Proto Slavic=Gora Proto Baltic=Gire, Avestani (ancestral form of modern Iranian languages)= Gairi, Albanian = gur 'stone', Sanskrit = Guru 'heavy' and Acala (same root) mountain, West SLavic Pagorek = hill, Russian for upper Qarabag/ Artsakh = NaGORNO Karabakh., I didnt need to look that up though its what i learned in history courses about the name for Georgia.

If you consider the low-lying land of North and South Holland province, mostly dipping below see level, windblown and hardly stable, then you realize that it was once a marshy shrubby wasteland wasteland like some of the Frisian islands still are, as is also tought in history courses. After I first added "hol" or hollow as the etymology it was changed by a dutchman i guess, but i dont believe he was correct. And its not as though you cant be a scholarly work that also states "hollow", "hole-ly" / marshland. - which makes much more sense. I think if someone wrote even holtland in some rare ancient document it was their own mistake. Holtland or rather "Holsetaland"/'Woodland' was known to be modern Holstein of Schleswig-Holstein in Germany. I dont think there would have been TWO Holsetaland's so very very close to each other.

I will try and say this as delicately as I can, and with all due respect. Everyone knows their own field the best. I happen to have been a linguist for decades and to have spent some fifteen years studying Indo-European historical linguistics, and I can tell you the following with absolute confidence. You may be a historian, but you are not an etymologist, and you do not have the wherewithal, or the necessary training, to evaluate an etymology. This is bound to be inevitably obvious to anyone who does have training in historical linguistics and etymology. This "List of country name etymologies" may be your baby, but is of little value to any serious researcher. It is at best an amusing collection of historical trivia, but the etymologies given range from the firmly established to the crackpot lunatic, with little evidence of proper vetting for scientific validity, because the skills that are required for such vetting are not there. Furthermore, each time you make an addition, you throw in dozens of misspellings and malapropisms, which do not look very good in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia. Finally, if I may ask, why do you not log in as a registered user? Pasquale 17:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)