Talk:Human/Archive 26

Pre-2004 discussions: Talk:Human/Archive1
Talk:Human/Archive2 -- September 2004

My 2 cents

This article does indeed focus on the biological side of the subject. I wouldn't mind a more spiritual POV added to the article. In my opinion both of these focusses deserve a place here. As for the taxobox. Humans are essentially a part of the animal kingdom, so it should have a taxobox like the other animals here om Wikipedia.

If you want more responses from me regarding this article, drop a note on my talk page. Mgm 19:16, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)

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What do you mean by "more spiritual POV added to the article"? How would you do that? How about some of the alternatives suggested above? ---Rednblu 20:32, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Remember, Mgm, the Wikipedia is not suppose to have "biological" or "spiritual" POV. It is supposed to present fairly all important POV's. The article should not end up pushing any POV, but should divulge all important ones. It should expressly say some believe biological is all she wrote and others believe humans are also spiritual beings (or whatever). Tom 21:01, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Notice I suggested adding all POV's to the article. I don't feel only the biological POV should be mentioned. But I'm having trouble myself defining "spiritual" in this context. Mgm 07:02, Sep 24, 2004 (UTC)

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Yes. How about centering on the observable facts? Most efforts of law, philosophy, and civilization focus on methods and techniques for repressing the biological part of man in favor of a part of man that is artificial, man-made, and not biological. For example, men have a biological hunger to kill. [1] But law looks for methods and techniques to make biological man more human by caging, rehabilitating, and chilling the very real but very undesirable biological part of man. And the "spiritual" part of man is one example of the man-refined non biological part of man. How would you phrase it? ---Rednblu 17:21, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But humans are social animals. Our urges to live peacefully (or not) in regulated societies and to think about our world are just as biological as our desires to eat, excrete and mate. --Heron 18:00, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Wait a second. As dab was saying, I think we need to step back a bit. I think instead of "centering on the observable facts" we need to center on the observable POVs and report them. Isn't it just a matter of organizing them fairly? Tom 19:00, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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<<Our urges to live peacefully (or not) in regulated societies and to think about our world are just as biological as our desires to eat>>

Well said. But there is a tension between the 1) biological part and 2) what people want to be. I agree with you that the aspiration of "what people want to be" also has biological components. But as Tom says, there are other points of view. Some people would call that aspiration of "want to be"--spirituality or "rising above our evil nature." Let me give you an example.

1. Take your and my hunger for sugar, salt, and burned fat--all biological--we inherit these hungers with our biological hardware.
2. In tension with these biological hardware hungers are aspirations for healthy bodies--which our hungers for sugar, salt, and burned fat repeatedly threaten--given the ready access to salt, sugar, and burned fat that technology, including McDonald's marketing, provides us.
3. And, the empirical evidence indicates that the biological hardware hungers for sugar, salt, and burned fat are so stong that a healthy human body in an urban setting is nearly impossible without tremendous personal effort and discipline to repress the biological hardware hunger--in order to get the desired result.
4. That is, getting the desired result requires artificially repressing the spontaneous and natural urges, hungers, and desires of the biological hardware to be "human." Would you agree? ---Rednblu 19:15, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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I agree that we can't just let ourselves be driven by the strongest urge that we feel at any moment. Yes, we have to repress some of our urges sometimes in order to survive. However, my view is that the self-discipline we use to fight the bad urges is just as much a part of our biology as the urges themselves. I admit that self-discipline requires a kind of abstract awareness that perhaps only humans possess. This awareness is what some people call "spirituality", but I just call it "being smart". I'll be happy as long as we present both views in this article. --Heron 19:34, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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<<my view is that the self-discipline we use to fight the bad urges is just as much a part of our biology as the urges themselves.>>

There you see--you and I have different points-of-view. In my point-of-view, the self-discipline is not a part of the biology--just as nutrition is not a part of the biology; nutrition had to be discovered and is not part of the biology. Culture may exhibit on the components of biology, but in my view, the "culture" is not part of the biology--just as Michelangelo's David is not part of marble.

1. But as Tom says, our job here is not to come to an agreement. Our job is to present the points-of-view--including both yours and mine, to the extent that we can find scholars and published thinkers that have expressed similar points-of-view.
2. The major quesiton is one of ranking--is
   • Taxobox biology the first presentation in defining human or is
   • What you call "being smart" the first presentation in defining human

In my opinion, what you call "being smart" should be the first presentation--because that "being smart" is what people call the most human. ---Rednblu 21:02, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

But you can't have the cart before the horse. We already have an article on person in the philosophical sense. Improve the flaming article by adding to it instead of whingeing about it lacking content in certain areas. Dunc_Harris|☺ 21:32, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem, I think, Duncharris, is that we also have an article on human, and we can't decide how to make it NPOV. I don't think we can dodge this just by redirecting to person.

OK, Rednblu. As you say, we're not here to convince each other of our respective POVs, interesting though the discussion is. The question of how to present these views fairly is extremely difficult. We shouldn't be surprised that this article is proving to be so hard to write. Is the equivalence between "human" and "Homo sapiens" the same as that between "housefly" and "Musca domestica"? As you can guess, I would say it is, but I recognize that millions, or even billions, of people would disagree. We can redirect from one term to the other in the housefly example without causing any controversy, but in the human example, there is more at stake.

Perhaps I can accept that we need to make a special case for the species "human", just as houseflies would do if they could write about themselves. Perhaps we should have an intro that says "Humans are beings that describe themselves in a mixture of spiritual and biological terms. The spiritual explanation is <blah> and the biological explanation is <blah>." I think "Humans ... describe themselves as..." is better than "Humans are ...", because it enables us to keep a degree of objectivity. Then there could be longer sections on the two aspects. I don't care which order they go in, as long as it is made clear that neither is universally accepted as the only correct view.

Excuse me if I don't reply for a while. I have stuff to do in meatspace. --Heron 21:44, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Heron, I like your proposed first sentence. This has been eluding me in my nocturnal musings, and I think you may have suggested a solution. "Humans are beings that describe themselves in..." is quite ingenious. It says a lot, but nothing that is controversial. Very deep indeed. Cows don't describe themselves at all, and chimpanzees don't describe themselves as anything other than hungry. Gods and angels, orcs and dwarves don't describe themselves in the way you describe. I think you have come up with a first sentence that actually describes humans in a non-controversial way. Tom 05:22, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Tom. I've been bold and changed the intro. Let's see what others think. --Heron 19:55, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I like it too, good job! The third paragraph looks somewhat out of place now, though (Humans, being by nature introspective, inquisitive, and philosophical, have long wrestled with self-definition.), in the sense, that human self-perception is now at the beginning, then follows some biology, and then we go back to self-perception... Maybe we should alter it, or remove it. I have made a small change, so far, replacing science-fiction/fantasy with mythology (reducing 'slashdot' style). dab 11:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad you tackled the sci-fi reference. I didn't want to upset Tom by removing it completely, but I thought it needed toning down a bit. --Heron

btw, I have started a new section Self-Reflection further down the page. So far it is very incomplete, giving only two examples. The idea is to expand it with notable examples from other epochs/cultures (it can still be moved to a separate article, of course, should it get out of hand). Maybe (as an afterthought) the abovementioned "third paragraph" could be moved down to head this section? dab 11:20, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Para 3 does seem mostly redundant now, but I'm not sure that I would delete all of it, and I'm afraid that if I incorporate all of it into para 1 then para 1 will lose its succinctness. Your suggestion is probably the best compromise. --Heron 13:02, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We are doing a good job of exploring ideas, and I like it when we actually edit the article. We still have a long way to go before the overall article organization reflects all major points of view fairly, but this level of effort and flux is going to eventually pay off, and someday the article will surely be NPOV. Tom 16:36, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The first sentence is all right, I think. But the second sentence is where we already begin to violate NPOV. "Spiritually, they are the only species known to practise religion and philosophy." Where we are supposed to, by NPOV, start saying 'P-ists say (or believe) P and Q-ists say Q', we jump immediately from an NPOV opening sentence into a POV description of spirituality. We have to find a way to let the POVs speak for themselves. But instead, we keep coming around to having everything described within a biological/secularist POV. The second sentence and the taxobox that presides over the whole article instead of tgh biology section are the first two examples of this currently. Tom 16:42, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Could we just remove the words spiritually, culturally and biologically from the second, third and fourth sentences? That would avoid defining these terms so early in the article. --Heron 17:50, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

aw, that's just what I liked about your arrangement...

Tom, we don't have to put "X says" in front of every sentence ;-) I know that absolute truth can never be acheived, but if a statement is undisputed, we might as well treat it as given. Or can you think of any view that would object to "they are the only species known to practise religion and philosophy" (note that it wisely says "species", so even if you want to assume religious angels, or similar, because angels hardly qualify as a species) dab 18:40, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Right, dab. We don't have to do that. What we have to do is make our thesis and our organization reflect NPOV so that everything that is said within that NPOV framework can be said freely and without repeating words like purportedly, allegedly, etc. ad nauseum. The problem with the second sentence is that it fails to help set up an NPOV framework for the article. Note I am saying it is the framework that is failing to comply. It seems like in spite of all the discussion above, we are still trying to fit this article into one grand absolute POV, which I again believe stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the NPOV policy. The intro needs to introduce masterfully and neutrally all the major POVs (and I included fantasy only with tongue in cheek). Of course everything said in the intro must be carefully qualified so as not to give an 'official' Wikipedia orientation on any controversial point. The second sentence currently says 'Humans have culture and religion'. But from the religious (traditional?) POV, religion is not something humans have; rather it is something that defines humans. So without intending to, we have jumped immediately into the biological POV in the second sentence. And of course having the taxobox frame the entire article also jumps right into the biological POV. We need to let Tradition, Religion, and Biology speak for themselves, and not let them define one another. Tom 19:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Agree with dab and Tom. To illustrate Tom's point above, suppose the article said something like "Humans have physical bodies with a number of biological characteristics..." I am not proposing this as phrasing for the article, merely trying to show how that kind of sentence construct can potentially weight the article towards one POV or the other. And, I still think that the taxobox should be in a Biology section, just as any hypothetical diagram of a human's body/soul/spirit should be in a Spirituality section. Wesley 21:52, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Proposal for vote on Taxobox

I hear you. I think that in a definition of humans, when we say "humans have X", that automatically translates to "humans are defined by X", without having to repeat "necessary but not sufficient for humanity is X" like five times. But I am open to a more commital phrasing, such as "are endowed with" (too theistic maybe?), or indeed "are defined by", no problem. I am afraid this is going towards the splitting of hairs for me, but why not. It is certanly better to say "humans have bodies" than "humans are bodies", because "have" is a very powerful verb that can express circumstantial possession as well as essential constituency. I thank you for the inclusion of fantasy by the way, which in my view, in its more general guise as mythology, is on equal footing with science and religion in the human mind. Concerning the taxobox, I think we are finally at a stage where we can just vote on its position, unrelated to questions of exact phrasing of the article text. I can see the following options:

1. keep it at the top of Human
2. move it to the biology section (at this point the first section after the intro)
3. cut the biology section to a summary, move the full text to a separate Homo sapiens article, and move the taxobox there, too
4. same as above (taxobox to Homo sapiens), with more emphasis on extinct human subspecies, and the taxobox from Homo (genus) in the biology section.

I know that I seem to be the only proponent here of the idea that 'human' "really" includes all of Homo (genus), and I won't be terribly insistent on that. I can really accept all of the possibilities above. dab 08:19, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I feel that, if either option 3 or option 4 is eventually chosen, then this page needs to be nothing more than a disambiguation page pointing to different perspectives of humans. If only the biological POV is moved to a new page, then this page won't be neutral. I would prefer option 2 as a compromise if not 1. -- Sundar 12:20, Sep 28, 2004 (UTC)

well, in a way this is already the case. If you think of the articles about Religion, Language and Philosophy as sections that properly belong here, but which we only summarize and point to, arguably, the biology section should follow suit. At the moment, it is the longest paragraph. The suggestion is not to cut it down to a single link, but to make all paragraphs roughly the same length (while we still have to decide on which section titles we want, exactly). As I said, I think 1 or 2 are acceptable, but I think you objection really just amounts to a vote for them. For the voting process, to avoid to "draw votes", I suggest, we first vote on "should the full biology section be exported or not?", and in the case of "yes": "do we keep a taxobox with the biology summary?", and in the case of "no": "do we leave the box at the top, or do we move it to the section title?". We'd need to vote twice, but I think the results will be fairer.

Hrm... I was about to agree very strongly with Sundar (1 is preferable to 2, which is preferable to...), but you've cut a little bit of fire from me by editting in right before me *grins*. I do not feel the full biology section should be exported. Before religion, language^* or culture existed, humans existed, for they could not exist without the biological creatures that we are, regardless of how our different cultures and religions view their relationship to our physical existence. Looking at even just the religion and language articles, religion is about twice as long as human is, and language is half the size but is only a collection of article summaries (and not only about human languages!). I think it is best to leave the taxobox where it is and simply clean up the organization of this article to be more streamlined. One last thought that I'll leave in the form of a series of questions: What is the expectation of this article's reader on what the content of the article will be? Does this expectation vary depending if the reader lands here from a WikiSearch vs linking in from another article? - UtherSRG 13:42, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

^* I do acknowledge that some form of language may have been inherited from our evolutionary predessessors, and that as evolution has shaped the various proto-humans lines, our ability to use and create language has also been so shaped. However, that was proto-human language spoken by proto-humans, not human language spoken by humans. Some similar understanding exists for culture and religion which feed off of and grow from each other, just as they use and adapt language as they need. - UtherSRG 13:42, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Before religion, language or culture existed, humans existed – welcome to an eternal argument (please browse the previous discussions). You need to understand that not everybody will agree with this, and if you are determined to argue about this before voting on the taxobox, we are back at square one. I was hoping that we could just agree to vote, without settling philosophical disputes first. I think we all have our predilections on where the 'box should go, but prerequisite for the vote is just that nobody thinks either of the proposed options so unacceptable that he/she will block the change even if a majority of contributors is seen to support it. (please let's not argue whether religion or biology came first, here and now. please?) dab 14:26, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've been away for about a month. Reading a month's worth of debate compressed to the time it takes to read will not help me. the changes in peoples viewpoints have happened over time, time which I can not regain. Regardless, my latter point remains: What are the various ways the reader is going to come upon this article, and what expectations will the reader have? I assert that most readers are going to come to this article seeking knowledge about the physical human condition. If I am correct, then the article should start from that perspective and move to other areas of the human condition in turn. For comparison, language starts by talking about human languages, then branches out into other forms of language. - UtherSRG 15:25, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Looking at the whole of article we have now, it seems to be in reasonable shape, although stubby in places. There is some good stuff here that would be lost if we made this just a disambig page. For this reason, I think it would be best just to move the taxobox (minus the Voyager pictures) to a new Hom sap article, and move most of the biological stuff to the existing article on human biology. I'm afraid this doesn't fit any of the four options above, so I'll have to call it option 5. Sorry to complicate things. --Heron 15:02, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I should say this is option 3, cut the biology section to a summary, move the full text to a separate Homo sapiens article, and move the taxobox there, too. The division between (or identity of) human biology and Homo sapiens would then not concern this article (former is a stub, and refers to biology as a science, i.e. "study of..."). But, before proceeding, we must first establish if somebody is prepared to resist such changes even against a majority. dab 15:14, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I may be such a person. I do not know if I would be able to accept options 3 or 4. - UtherSRG 15:41, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oops. I think Rednblu started the voting process a bit early. It's pointless if the outcome is not binding. Consider, though, that the taxobox would of course be at the top of Homo sapiens, so your only point to object would really be the guideline requesting "common name rather than scientific name" to which humans could conceivably form a justifiable exception (the sheer mass of text, should we try to lump all that concerns humans in this article). dab 16:31, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Consideration for "why" the reader comes to the Human page

Keep the Taxobox at the top of Human

• Support. This is the most likely reason a reader will be coming to this article, to find out about the physical human condition. - UtherSRG 15:45, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Correction: This is in your POV the most likely reason. It appears to me you are stuck trying to determine something that Wikipedia policy fundamentally asks us not to try to determine. Our job is to present the major POVs fairly. One way this is explained is the analogy of explaining to a space alien. But perhaps more understandable is the idea of explaining to your teenage son or daughter. Suppose he/she approached you and asked, "Dad, what is a human?" Being the conscientious Dad you are, and not wanting to lead him/her astray you might lead of by saying, "Well, Sweetheart, it depends on who you ask. Some people believe P. Some believe Q. And a few believe R." Of course he/she will then say "What do you believe, Dad?" And you will tell him/her your belief. But at Wikipedia the dialogue can't go that far. Daddy Wikipedia never answers that question. His answer is always, "Well, sweetheart, I'm still learning." I go back to the old mantra, "Have you read the NPOV doc and tutorial lately?" Tom 19:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I disagree with you, but only in part. Yes, it's my POV that biology is the main reason someone is likely to visit the article. I also believe that if we work at it we can determine if this POV has any factual basis. But it's not a POV about humans, its a POV about the article. It's not my POV that biology is the main facet of humanity. There is a difference. To use your Parent-Child analogy from the alien perspective, the alien parent might *first* respond, "Well, they are the dominant species on the planet and are evolved through the primate line." They might then go on as: "But more importantly, they created many different and diverse societies and had all of these different religious views and ... " etc. The "more importantly" shows that the parent was using the first part of the discussion, the biology, as an intro, as a stepping point to talk about the other points. It's also my POV that it is easier to step from a basic discussion of biology into any other facet than it is to step from any of those other aspects to the biology. Stepping either way causes some POV shift and we will not be able to avoid that, so we should pick the POV shift that works best for the article and for the readers of the article.

I appreciate these comments. I believe we are starting to agree on what the real issues are here. I am shy to be so nagging, but I still think there is a lot of slinging of the terms NPOV and POV around here by people who have not read the NPOV doc and tutorial all the way through carefully ever or at least in a very long time. This is key to Wikipedia work. It impinges on the concept of an alien and the concept of POV shift you use above. Note that alien is not mentioned, but there are enough examples given to clarify these ideas. Tom 15:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, let's talk about the difference between facts and beliefs. Facts are incontrovertable. Beliefs are formed by opinions about what the facts mean. - UtherSRG 12:50, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Again here I am forced to ask that you read the NPOV doc and tutorial regarding all human "knowledge". We can't proceed without a common set of values guidelines. Tom 15:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Some facts: Humans have mammalian/primate characteristics. Human DNA that is about 98% the same as chimpanzees. Humans are social. Humans have many religions. Humans have many cultures. Humans have many different beliefs about themselves and about their place in the world around them. Humans are self-aware. Humans have a high degree of intelligence. - UtherSRG 12:50, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

True. I don't think those are disputed at all. And I agree with you that they should not be turned into "beliefs". Please don't think I entertain any delusions that the task of crafting an appropriate article for the term "human" will be easy, or that I can envision it already. Tom 15:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Some beliefs: Humans are evolved from other (extinct) primates. Humans are spiritual beings created by God. Humans are the keepers of the planet. - UtherSRG 12:50, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Right again: Expressing my own "knowledge", humans are free-will children of God who have taken on an animal body for the purposes of God. (Other worldly things may also be spiritual, but only humans are free-will children and heirs of God.) Tom 15:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We should do our best to present the facts. We should do our best to provide a reasonable selection of the facts. We should do our best to provide a reasonable selection of beliefs about the facts. - UtherSRG 12:50, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Right. And the NPOV doc and tutorial explain that we must present it all fairly and without judgement. Hmmm. Maybe a masterful split of certain parts of the article will eventually prevail. But for now I resist it. Tom 15:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

- UtherSRG 12:50, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I like the alien analogy because it seems to make the fewest assumptions about what is already known about the topic under consideration. The NPOV doc and the alien analogy are not in conflict with each other. I *have* read NPOV. I don't see my paragraphs above to be in contradiction with NPOV. Instead of just saying "read the NPOV docs", please help me (and others) understand your understanding of NPOV better. Explain how what I am saying is in conflict with your understanding of NPOV, or point to a specific section of the NPOV doc that you think contradicts something I've said. - UtherSRG 16:38, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Good point. But, off the top of my head, I wonder if we don't have a duty as encyclopedists to portray the actuality of the subject Human no matter why the reader came to Human. I think I would say the same thing about Magnetism or Gravitation or Evolution. What do others think? ---Rednblu 17:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Your summary asks how to determine this. As far as I know, there is not fully accurate way. The best is to get a "What links here" list, get a count of the number of times each of those pages is accessed, group the pages by category (biology, religion, etc), then sum up the categories' page counts. - UtherSRG

That was the neatest idea to me in your comment--that we could pattern the page after some empirical assessment of "why" the reader came to the Human page. As I thought about it, I could envision some context-assessment--like the newest ad strategy software tries to capture: What is the interest of the reader in browsing this particular string of Wikipedia pages? And as you say, the "What links here" would be a part of that analysis. It would be neat if we could do that! Then I bet we could come up with lots of newly effective ways to structure our Wikipedia pages. Neat idea. And you may be right as you explain below. Maybe we should put first what the reader mainly wants to know--and all the rest would follow in an appropriate order for communicating most effectively with the reader. ---Rednblu 19:38, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

As for your point above, I do agree that we should present a whole picture, but the fact remains that there are so many facets, we can't put them all first. We can put up a summary of the major facets in an intro section, the go to the most likely primary facet of interest, then the next, and so on. - UtherSRG 19:03, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

If people seemed to mostly come to this article for biological info, that is because there was mainly biological info here. Biology will remain "section 1", I think, but it will only make up for a third or a quarter of the finished article. I am "filling in" the Spirituality section, at the moment, and I'm trying to structure the "Sciences about humans" section into a section dealing with the individual and society (since that's what these sciences describe). I keep the religion/spiritual part to a minimal outline of historical developments to minimize disagreement. It is clearly not the place to outline different creeds, and only the most general impact on societal structure and self-perception should be described. dab 14:09, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Moved up here from the voting area:
And since there is genuine dispute in the world about what humans are, - Is there really? Is there genuine disupte about the basic facts, or is there a dispute about what those facts mean? For instance: Is there a dispute about the extreme similarity of chimp and human DNA, or is there a dispute about what that similarity means? Is there a dispute about our high degree of intelligence and our self-awareness, or is there a dispute about what our high degree of intelligence and our self-awareness means with regards to our beliefs about our position in the universe? - UtherSRG 15:06, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

BEGIN "Scratch Area" for voting on the placement of the Taxobox

I propose that we define a "scratch" area for this voting--where a scratch area is an area that can be edited by anybody and can be deleted after we have tried it to minimize the residual clutter to this page. I further propose that part of this scratch area for this voting should be a rules section--a short statement of how we shall proceed with this "voting." Accordingly, I will set out an example scratch area to see what you think. And feel free to edit the unsigned paragraphs in the following "scratch area." ---Rednblu 15:23, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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• Note that options 1 and 2 imply that Homo sapiens remains a redirect to Human while options 3 and 4 lead to an independent article Homo sapiens.

dab 16:02, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

• I'm not sure we are ready to do any voting. And I am afraid voting may amount to a cheap and easy way to avoid producing a truly high quality article. I can only imagine the weak result we might have come up with if we had cut the Mormonism and Christianity NPOV effort short with a vote. We are all reasonable and intelligent people, and we should be able to produce something good with each other's input. I think we ought to take some time to address UtherSRG's remarks above before we fire off a vote. We are under no deadline, and a poor solution is hardly worth settling on. Tom 17:21, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the vote could have waited a little bit. But note that it's only about finally settling where to put the taxobox, we are not even deciding between different wordings. In my opinion, the taxobox is a red herring that was distracting us far too long from the actual challenges of this article, and I'll be content to accept any of the proposed solutions. If you like, we could extend the voting period to two weeks (or longer). I think it's not unlikely that the emerging picture of votes will help to loosen the deadlock, without forcing anyone to swallow a completely unacceptable version dab 17:28, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

We could discuss UtherSRG's remarks above while the vote continues. For example, I expect to change my votes as I learn more about the issues involved through what you and others bring to my attention. dab's suggestion above gives me a week to shift my votes around. ---Rednblu 17:34, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I like. And I agree and appreciate the comments of both of you. Very insightful. Tom 17:39, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

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Rules for voting on the placement of the Taxobox

Voting

Voting here shall be proportional voting, that is, everybody gets to vote "Support," "Object," or some other vote for each of the four options that dab suggested above, so everybody gets four votes. The winner of the voting shall be the option that has the Highest score of (TotalSupportVotes minus TotalObjectVotes), where TotalSupportVotes is the count of votes that mean support. These rules are guidelines. And these rules are within the "Scratch Area" which means that any participant can edit these rules freely in an attempt to reach a consensus understanding that is better Human page than any of us individually could write for Human.

Close of voting period

The voting period shall end at 24:00, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC).

Limits on editing

Within the "Scratch Area," you may change, insert, and delete freely edit any text that has not been signed. You may also freely edit any of your own votes.

What to sign

Within the "Scratch Area," please sign only your votes and your short statements of why you voted the way you did.

Long comments

Please put long comments in the section preceding this "Scratch Area."

Dismantling this "Scratch Area"

At an appointed time, the Begin and End containers of this "Scratch Area" shall be removed after a general group consensus, leaving only the

1. final text as edited by everybody and the
2. votes as edited and signed by the particular participant.

Alternatively, by group consensus, the entire area between the BEGIN and END containers can be deleted.

Option 1: keep it at the top of Human

Support

1. Support. This is the most likely reason a reader will be coming to this article, to find out about the physical human condition. - UtherSRG 15:45, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
2. Support. It'd be utterly WIERD not to. Kim Bruning 20:53, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
3. Support -- Sundar 03:27, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
4. Support -- anywhere else makes it POV. user:duncharris (who can't find a tilde.)

Object

1. Object. Putting the Taxobox at the top of Human clutters the introduction and inappropriately focuses on the Biology of humans. ---Rednblu 15:28, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
2. object, because the article title is Human and not Homo sapiens, it is not clear that it should focus on biology, and the taxobox is therefore not "naturally" what people will be looking for. dab 16:35, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
3. object. Ditto what dab said above. And since there is genuine dispute in the world about what humans are, putting the taxobox at the top is a violation of NPOV in that it makes one of the POVs official. Tom 17:26, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Option 2: move it to the biology section (at this point the first section after the intro)

Support

1. Support. For a balanced view, I think the Taxobox should appear on the Human page, but I think the Taxobox should not be at the top, because the Taxobox at the top makes the Biology part of human dominate the presentation too much. ---Rednblu 15:34, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
2. weak support, but only if the biology section stays as far towards the top of the article as possible. I would strongly object to moving the biology section downward. - UtherSRG 15:53, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
3. support, with reservations identical to UtherSRG's dab 16:09, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
4. support moving it to Biology section for balance; don't really care which order the sections come in, so leaving the biology section as the first one after the Intro is fine.Wesley 16:31, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
5. support The intro should be short, masterfully Ultra-NPOV, and it should present all the POV's that are expanded further down. I am not clear yet on how we might name the POV sections. Biology as a POV section name seems weird for some reason, but that secularist/biological/atheist section can be first. Tom 17:31, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
6. support this seems like an appropriate compromise position Sayeth 13:55, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

Comments

1. Seeing page structure, if we really REALLY can't get option 1, then this is the fallback 2nd choice. Kim Bruning 21:00, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
2. Ditto Kim. -- Sundar 11:12, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

Option 3: cut the biology section to a summary, move the full text to a separate Homo sapiens article, and move the taxobox there, too

Object

1. Object. I think the Human page would be most useful if it provided summaries with some "meat," and I think the Taxobox is an important part of the "meat" that should be provided the reader in the Biology section of Human. ---Rednblu 15:44, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
2. Object, for the reasons given by Rednblu. Also, this breaks the Wikipedia:WikiProject Tree of Life standard where a species article should be named by the species' common name where possible and by the scientific name only when it is not possible. - UtherSRG 15:56, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
3. weakly object I think it defeats our NPOV goals to sequester the various POV's in their own closets. They need to stand in each other's light in the same article. It won't be easy, but it is the right thing. Tom 17:34, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
4. Object -- Sundar 03:33, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

Comments

1. If at all this option is chosen, the current page should be nothing more than a disambiguation page, pointing to different POVs of Human. -- Sundar 03:33, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

Option 4: same as above (taxobox to Homo sapiens), with more emphasis on extinct human subspecies, and the taxobox from Homo (genus) in the biology section.

Support

1. support, already because homo *means* human, we can hardly classify them as non-human. dab 16:10, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Object

1. Object strongly. This option divorces the biological aspect as far as possible from the cultural aspects of humanity and equating our biology with primitive states of being. - UtherSRG 16:12, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
2. Object Weakens NPOV as Option 3 by sequestering the POVs from each other. Please remember that it is POVs we are dealing with, not merely 'aspects'. We need to discuss this further. Tom 17:37, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
3. Object strongly -- Sundar 03:35, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

Comments

1. Comment. I understand that a "comment" is a wasted vote in not affecting the count of votes for Option 4. In my opinion, the Homo (genus) page should be highlighted on the Human page if and only if there were substantial data on the "human" behavior of the extinct human subspecies. But I don't think there is enough behavioral data :) to justify highlighting the Homo (genus)--except as part of the Biology section. I will come back and change my votes later when I can look over the votes and reasons that everyone else makes and gives. ---Rednblu 15:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

END "Scratch Area" for voting on the placement of the Taxobox

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Taxobox isn't too detailed

Hmm, not very detailed, here's taxo info for H.sapiens (from a random Swissprot OC field :-P).

OC   Eukaryota; Metazoa; Chordata; Craniata; Vertebrata; Euteleostomi;
OC   Mammalia; Eutheria; Primates; Catarrhini; Hominidae; Homo.

Kim Bruning 12:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes? So? Your point is? And please sign your posts. - UtherSRG 12:17, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The taxonomy data presented might be a little old. I'm not going to change it until I figure out who thought them up though, I'd like to know the reasons for going with this layout before I'd propose to change it or not. Kim Bruning 12:33, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ah! Ok. Your comment could have gone in another direction, and I get annoyed at non-signings. Ok. I'm the guy who keeps the Taxoboxes up-to-date for Primates (or at least, I'm the guy who created Wikipedia:WikiProject Primates), and I'm a participant in the revisioning of taxoboxes in general. Our general rule of thumb is to put into the taxobox only the most pertinent info so that the box itself isn't so large that it overwhelms. So first, we start only with the basic taxon ranks (Kingdom, Phylum, etc.) and then add only those intermediary ranks that are needed to flesh out the description. In this case, adding the Homininae subfamily rank completed the listing to my satisfaction. I'm willing to add more if you think it's pertinent, but the listing as it stands can draw the reader in for a more indepth perusal. - UtherSRG 14:22, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ah! So it's deliberate. Fair deal, won't propose changing it then. Hmm, though might be nice to have the full taxonomy stashed away someplace perhaps :-) . Kim Bruning 15:38, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The problem with that is the fluidity of various points between the major rankings. The full taxonomy would have to list all the "holes" and "train wrecks" for where we have either no good data or too many conflicting understandings of the data we do have. For an example, take a look at Hominoidea. - UtherSRG 16:07, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)