Talk:Rhodesia

/Archive 1: June 2004 – March 2006

Canberras

In the discussion of Rhodesia's military assets during the Bush War the Hawker Hunters are mentioned but not the Canberras. These were the largest & most powerful aircraft the Rhodesian Air Force had. Were they omitted because they were used to bomb other countries?

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The picture is that of an RhAF aircraft damaged by a SAM hit, probably taken in the late 1970s. Do you think that the aircraft is a Canberra?.

Do you know if any of the RhAF Canberras were still operational at the end of the war?. There were certainly losses in the war. They were able to replace Hunters (from Israel and Jordan (?)) but I doubt they could replace the Canberras. Bob BScar23625 21:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

That is a Canberra and not a Hawker. The Canberras were old with many hours on the airframe. In fact, the wings had a tendency to fall off and the Rhodesians were unable to get spare parts. --Vumba 22:39, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is broadly consistent with my recollection. The Canberras never amounted to much operationally. At least two were lost to accidents and one was shot down in the war. Bob BScar23625 23:21, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

ps the English Electric Canberra was designed to be a high speed, high altitude light bomber and reconnaissance aircraft. It would be very vulnerable if used to attack defended ground targets from low altitude. It would have been of marginal use, at best, in the war

Actually, the Canberras were used in external operations in Mozambique and in Zambia. In Zambia they were used in the raid against Nkomo's force at West Farms and Mulingushi. On the West Farms raid (supported by the Hunters and helio gunships) there was concern about wings falling off when they increased speed for the bomb runs. In a "famous" tape called Green Leader, the Canberra flight leader actual voices this concern>--Vumba 00:58, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. But if you go to the English Electric Canberra article, you will note that Zimbabwe is not recorded as a user. That leads me to suspect that the aircraft were no longer operational at the time of independence - but that may be wrong. Bob BScar23625 08:20, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

My understanding is that the Canberra's in the Rhodesian airforce were phased out pre the establishment of the independent Zimbabwe and its new airforce.--Vumba 13:29, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Vumba. My recollection is that the Canberras were far from being key assets, although they were used. They were too expensive to operate and too vulnerable to ground fire for a major role. But I am no expert. Bob BScar23625 16:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the following link will give some insight http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/aa-africa/zim/zim-af-all-time.htm It lists 20 in total (4 were trainers). Agree with their vulnerability, that's why the Rhodesians probably only used them in low-level surprise attacks (eg West Farms and Mulingushi) or with prior Hunter softening up. At lest that is my understanding.--Vumba 23:07, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Vumba - is there an internet link for that Green Leader recording from the Zambian airspace incident?

If you have had no luck, go to [1] and buy a copy of the Rhodesia Was Super CD (approx US$10). BScar23625 19:42, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

Capitalisation of racist terms

Is there a standard for black vs Black, white vs White? The article uses them interchangeably and I wonder if it would be worth agreeing a standard? I did a copyedit of it tonight and it is an excellent article otherwise I thought. Guinnog 23:40, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

property and education qualifications on the Rhodesian electoral role

139.92.214.98. You have altered the description of these qualifications from “(unexceptional for the early twentieth century)” to “(common in southern Africa at the time, but not so elsewhere)”.

I am no expert but I wonder if your understanding is correct?. Property, income, education and gender qualifications were commonplace in Europe and North America until well into the twentieth century. Less than 3 millions votes were cast in the 1911 general elections in the UK. The 1918 UK election was the first with anything like a mass electorate and full universal suffrage was not actually achieved until the 1931 election. Education qualifications had the effect of excluding blacks from the electoral role in some Southern US states until well into the 1960s. Qualification by ethnicity was a peculiarly South African thing that even the Rhodesians shied away from until late in the UDI era. My facts may be incorrect in detail, but I am sure my main thrust is correct.

Unless you object, I will revert your alteration in the next few hours.

Bob BScar23625 07:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Banana Republics

Damon. You have just inserted the following section of text concerning the period leading up to the 1965 UDI :

".. newly independent African States were descending into communist 'banana republics', and were expelling White and Asian settlers, the White Rhodesians were justifiably concerned."

Perhaps that statement is less than objective?. Some whites may have perceived things the way you put it, but was that perception objective fact? The main reference case is obviously Kenya, which had a large white/Asian population and was moving to independence during the period in question. Bob BScar23625 04:59, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

ps - I have now adjusted your text to make clear that it is expression of opinion rather than fact. I hope that is OK. Bob BScar23625 10:55, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Damon. Thanks for attempting an adjustment - but I am not sure it is much of an improvement. It presents opinion as if it were fact. The obvious reference cases are Kenya and Botswana, both of which had smooth transitions to a relatively prosperous independence without the violent civil war that Rhodesia experienced. Bob BScar23625 07:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

ps : I mean, where are all these communist banana republics that bankrupted their treasuries while expelling their White and Asian settlers?. Can you name three?. Take a look at Botswana.