Talk:Rationalism

Ockham's Eraser

JA: Under the rubric, "Do not ramify subtext beyond necessity", I am moving one editorical comment to the talk page, so that it can be archived for all posteriority. Jon Awbrey 12:27, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Leibniz developed his theory of monads in response to both Descartes and Spinoza <!-- this is speculation (and not convincing, to be honest), because he found that Spinoza's response to the [[mind-body problem]] did not allow for [[individuation]]-->.

On speculation

JA: The way I read them, Descartes, Leibniz, Spinoza are not just rational thinkers but speculative thinkers, and we need to exercise caution to avoid a type of misunderstanding that often arises in presenting the work of speculative thinkers. A speculative reasoner can present one sort of speculative system on a Monday morning, a very different system on a Tuesday afternoon, and an utterly fantastic system on a Sunday evening. But they can be, and in the case of these three, certainly were, just as acquainted with ordinary reality as anybody has to be in order to get through life, and they do not of necessity contradict themsleves anymore than Walt Whitman did. In the case of Leibniz especially, his speculations about what God knows and when he knows it have to be keep in a separate hamper from his knowledge of what we "fallible and mortal finite information critters" (FAMFIC's) know and how we come to know it. Jon Awbrey 12:48, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

They are historically classed as rationalists as opposed to empiricists. They may be speculative but then so were the idealists (even more so perhaps). Pretty much every philosopher, amateur and professional is in consensus about this. Hence on my course when I was taught about the rationalists, Spinoza, Leibniz et. al were mentioned. What are you on about when you talk about FAMFIC's? --Knucmo2 18:04, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Malebranche et al.

As already mentioned, the less prominent rationalists have no mention in the article as of yet. How are we to go about mentioning their rationalist "credentials" without turning it into a full summary of their works. Somehow, the distinctly "rationalist" parts have to be emphasised. Is Gassendi a rationalist by the way? --Knucmo2 18:03, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, as the category "Rationalists" is artificial and a bit vague in the first place, it's not easy to say definitively who ought to be placed in it. On the whole, I'd say that Gassendi shares enough with the Rationalists to be included (though his views on, for example, the possibility of deriving scientific knowledge through the senses changed through his life, and his scepticism and Epicureanism might be taken to set him apart from the Rationalists). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 20:53, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I agree that the distinction is a little artificial. How about Malebranche? I'm not overly familiar with his works as I am with Gassendi's. Two good books that collaborators on this article might want to read are Cottingham, J. (Major Descartes scholar) Rationalism and Aune, B. Rationalism, Empiricism and Pragmatism: An Introduction, as they are valuable secondary resources we'll be able to use for the article and they're notable for their clarity in drawing out similarities and differences between the philosophers. --Knucmo2 21:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Requested Move: Should Continental Rationalism be merged with the Rationalism article?

I vote no. As a user with a PhD in Philosophy, I think that (a) the current Continental Rationalism article provides a sober, satisfactory description of some of the modern rationalist philosophers, but (b) the current Rationalism article veers into what many academic philosophers think of as fringe material involving free thinking and anti-religious humanism. (a) Philosophical rationalism is generally seen as following a distinctly separate path from empiricism, but (b) humanistic "rationalism" is often seen as closely allied with contemporary scientific empiricism. Bottom Line: I don't think that the prospects are good for merging these 2 articles. I'd suggest instead that the current Rationalism article be left as is and that Continental Rationalism be expanded into something like Rationalism in Academic Philosophy, so that the thought of classical and medieval philosophical rationalists like Aristotle and Thomas Aquinas can be included, as well as 20th century philosophical rationalists like Brand Blanshard or Henry Veatch. --WikiPedant 03:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

You are saying precisely what I have been trying to say. I propose not that they be merged, but that rationalism should either redirect here or continental rationalism should be moved there. The content currently found at rationalism could be moved to something like rationalist movement. As is, it gives many people the wrong impression of what rationalism means in philosophy. Srnec 04:27, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Srnec, now I see what you have in mind. Your suggestion works for me. It keeps the articles separate and rightly gives the name Rationalism to the academic philosophical stream. Sorry for misunderstanding your intent. --WikiPedant 18:08, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Because nobody else but you has responded to dispute tags and move requests, I have unilaterally moved rationalism to rationalist movement and made the former a redirect here. There is a disambiguation page at rationalism (disambiguation). I still think this page ought to be moved to rationalism and continental rationalism ought to redirect there. Srnec 20:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the correct next step is to move this page to Rationalism and redirect Continental Rationalism there. --WikiPedant 21:07, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

JA: People are not following the proper protocols for page moves. When they do, I will vote that the best name for the philosophical position commonly associated with Descartes, Leibniz, Spinoza, et al. in Enlightenment Days and let us say Chomsky in recent times is just plain vanilla Rationalism. And please, I don't want to return here in the Fall and find an article entitled Just Plain Vanilla Rationalism. Jon Awbrey 21:18, 12 July 2006 (UTC)