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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cecropia (talk | contribs) at 04:28, 5 October 2004 (→Pending decision: clarified my commentary language). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Violence against Israelis

Isreali Terrorism /Palestinian Terrorism /Terrorism against Israelis/Terrorism against Israel in 2000 / Terrorism against Israel in 2001 / Terrorism against Israel in 2002 / Terrorism against Israel in 2003 / Terrorism against Israel in 2004 and all these pages are making a mockery of wikipedia. Wikipedia is becoming a political mouthpiece. All relevant NPoV material should merged into Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. --Spacemonkey 13:33, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

    • I don't see any mockery. If there are notable historical facts, I don't see what's the problem with anybody writing articles about them. And merging would create extremely large articles.--AAAAA 15:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Take a look at Occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem by Jordan for more work by the same hand. Susvolans 16:27, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Look at the edit history of that article; clearly not by the same hand. Jayjg 16:32, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
And even if it was the "same hand", what is the problem?--AAAAA 15:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect all to Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. — Gwalla | Talk 19:11, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • So long as there is a corresponding (and a consesnsus for) NPOV edits, I agree, M&R (though not necessarily all, as the size will be prohibitive). El_C
  • Merge and Redirect all but the date entries into Israeli-Palestinian conflict (duplicate info), Delete the date entries (not notable). --Improv 12:23, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
    • Article would be too long. And regarding the date entries, would you consider a bomb in your local restaurant where your father, mother, brother, sister, wife, son & daughter died a NON-NOTABLE ENTRY?--AAAAA 15:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • Sorry AAAAA, with all due respect to the victims, this is not a valid argument. Billions of people had died in the last centuries and all of them had their families and relatives. Most of them had someone for whom the date of their death was a day of mourning. This however does not mean that an encyclopedia should list all possible people that died. Wiki is not about copying obituaries from all the newspapers around the world. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 16:44, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep as it is an important record of current events. Even the New York Times keeps tallies of injured and war dead in conflicts. (By the way who is SpaceMonkey and why is he afraid to have a valid Wikipedia User name as there is no word "User" in front of his "signed" name, check it out for yourself by clicking on the "edit" page. It just shows up as --[[SpaceMonkey]] ??? Another Anti-Semite afraid to face the truth???) IZAK 12:36, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Sir/Ma'am, I deeply resent your accusation of anti semitism. If you notice IZAK, I've included internal links from both sides. Also, is it necessary to have pages that say Terrorism against Israel 2001, 2002, 2003 etc. Where do we stop Israeli Terrorism against Palestinians 2001, 2002, 2003 etc? How about pages of Saddam's atrocicties 1991, 1992, 1993 or United States state sponsored terrorism 1999, 2000, 2001!!!! Why can't this information be included in a Palestinian/Israeli Conflict or similiar! Stop being narrow minded IZAK. We don't want you to make Wikipedia a political mouthpiece! All NPoV material Merge to Israeli/Palestian Conflict pages. --SpaceMonkey 09:17, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[[User:SpaceMonkey]] has now inserted his corrected Wiki user name...thank you. There is no "statute of limitations" of where Wiki articles can stop as long as they remain FACTUAL and TRUTHFUL. Israel has NOT sent "terrorists" to commit suicide-bombings against civilians as Israel has not launched any sort of "Intifada" against Arabs either, so I fail to see your "moral equivalancy" between Palestinian acts of terror and Israeli acts of self-defense. Furthermore, your suggestion that the United States would "sponsor" "state terrorism" (in ways similar to Saddam-the "Butcher of Baghdad) is highly offensive and merely reflects your distorted way of "thinking" that would explain why you crave to have this page "deleted". Finally, on a technical note, you cannot squeeze onto one page everything that pertains to the "Palestinian/Israeli Conflict" which is also part of the "Arab-Israeli Conflict" which in turn is part of the millenia-old struggle between the Jews and Anti-Semitism. IZAK 11:08, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

    • I agree with IZAK.--AAAAA 15:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge all to Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict Wolfman 16:11, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect. That way all the information is in one place. --G Rutter 19:53, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect -- Jmabel 22:17, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)
  • Neutralize POV, Merge, and Redirect. Sarge Baldy 00:52, Oct 1, 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge all of those pages and anything else in the same vein to Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Redirect. Neutralise POV. The facts can be discussed without singling one side out as the victim. The data belong in the same place because they stem from the same conflict and because sometimes the blame is not easy to attribute accurately. Shorne 06:13, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • To Wolfman, G Rutter, Jmabel & Sarge Baldy: Article would be too long.--AAAAA 15:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep but consider merge of all pages into a more NPOV framework, e.g. chronicle of violence in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, with links to seperate pages if those exist (e.g. bus bombings or helicopter attacks on particular dates). Despite being biased towards the present title, I think it conveys too much POV to stand by itself. JFW | T@lk 10:09, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
    • I'm with JFW--Josiah 19:38, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Since not many of you read all the articles, here is a short briefing:
    • Palestinian terrorism surveys Palestinian terrorism since 1920. It do overlaps in some point the article violence against Israelis since Pals focused their attacks on Israeli civilian.
    • "Terrorism against Israel in 200?" are chronological listings of terrorist attacks against Israelis. These are seperate articles because merging to one will create too long article.
    • Terrorism against Israel in 2004 started as a continue of list of attacks against Israelis, but some user insisted on adding reports of Palestinian casualties from Israeli military operation. The page name was later changed to Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict 2004, although only attacks againsst Israelis are tracked and monitored regularly.
Puting all the information in one article will create an article that is too long, so - keep the lists, and merging of "Palestinian terrorism" with "violence against Israelis" should be reexamined carefuly. MathKnight 10:17, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge and redirect, this is what sections are for, no need to create separate articles. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 12:15, Oct 3, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep/merge and redirect/delete. These articles present a serious NPOV problem but I can't see how it can be solved unless some good soul dedicates a lot of time to describing Israeli violence targetted at Palestians, which is several times bigger than the violence described in these articles, as well as other human rights violations which are of far greater magnitude. Oh, and IZAK please refrain from gratuitous accusations of anti-Semitism. In the absence of any evidence to support that claim you violate a basic Wikipedia policy of personal attacks, and you banalise anti-Semitism. - pir 12:38, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep It deserves its own page. it is hard to have NPOV articles when people deny facts. violence by israelis against palestinians tends to be the israeli army going after TERRORISTS. violence by the palestinians against israelis tends to be indiscriminate killing of CIVILIANS. Xtra 13:43, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • KEEP This article deserves to exist much more than many other lame articles about the "philosophy of the mosquito" that wikipedia currently has and nobody deletes. Seems to me that this article is FACTUAL and not POV as some others say. Merging would create an article too long. Every single page about violence against ANYBODY should be always kept, as a reminder to all of us of the "bad" part of society and as a tribute to the victims.--AAAAA 15:24, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, but it must be refactored with Palestinian terrorism in mind, since there is a heavy overlap: "Palestinian terrorism" should be a section of the current article in the form of summary, with the rest in the "main article" (Palestinian terrorism), as it is customary in wikipedia. Mikkalai 17:28, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep whatever is accurate and present in a NPOV manner (I'm not arguing that the current presentation is or isn't NPOV), because the material is valuable and encyclopedic and is one of the better compilations I've seen. My problem is the title, which is not really accurate. It is not really violence against Israelis because the subject predates modern Israel and non-Jews are also Israelis. The issue should really be in two articles, the earlier one covering Antisemitism in Arab Lands or "Muslim Lands" if you include Iran or Historical Status of Jews in Arab Lands, either of which would be a part of the study of similarities and contrasts with worldwide anti-Jewish sentiments, and the latter material is more in the nature of Asymmetric Warfare Against Jews after World War II or Asymmetric Warfare Against Jews in the Middle East. Either title is appropriate for the time frame after Israel became a state. The nature of asymmetric warfare is that one side (usually the weaker one) cannot or will not fight on the same terms or by the same methods as the other side. The reason I would characterize the ongoing Jewish-Arab situation as AS is because it is a war whose tactics have not much changed over more than a century, although the formation of Israel changed the complexion of things by giving the Jewish side the ability to wage conventional warfare and much of the world acting as a Greek chorus to judge and pressure the combatants. So I guess, in sum, I would want to see this subject expanded rather than suppressed, if only every word wouldn't be fought over by the opposing veiwpoints. -- Cecropia | Talk 18:09, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete (or M&R) this and all the ...in the year xxxx articles as well. Irreconcilably propaganistic. The proponents of these pages should create their own web sites with this information if they feel it needs to be recorded for prosterity and not attempt to use Wikipedia for this purpose . -- Viajero 20:05, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Delete the date entries (not notable). Merge and Redirect all but the date entries into Israeli-Palestinian conflict (duplicate info). -- BCorr|Брайен 00:38, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. This is part of a larger problem which needs to be solved as a whole. Jayjg 01:42, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep, but consider either rename or define a framework: a template (Template:Arab-Israeli confict?) or a series. Deleting valuable info would not make the problem go away. Merging would create a too long article requiring resplitting. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 03:33, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep or merge. The titles could be better but this is all factual information. I have minor issues with the term "Israeli terrorism" since I do not see invasions or targetted assassinations as the same as suicide bombings of innocents. (My view - this isn't the forum for a discussion.) But at the same time the state policy of destroying family homes of suicide bombers smacks of terrorism. - Tεxτurε 03:55, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect. Separate articles written from the Palestinian or Israeli side, which is what we will have if we don't merge, are counter to the spirit of Wikipedia. I can see an argument for having a number of articles on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but I don't think this is the way to go about it. Saforrest 04:07, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
As an additional comment, I would be fine with having a number of pages if someone could propose a framework for them that was clearly NPOV. Page names such as "Terrorism against Israel", "Palestianian terrorism" refer accurately to actual past events (in that terrorist acts were committed), but these titles discourage NPOV. The title of an objective account of the conflict should at least be general enough to encompass the intifada at large (beyond just terrorism). Saforrest 04:17, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
  • DELETE ALL (without Redirect) for POV titles, POV piling on and needless clutter.
"Terrorism" in titles disqualifies all articles on POV grounds.
Having 7 articles on attacks on Israel and just 1 on attacks on Palestinians is in itself POV (and laughably so because 3 times more Palestinians were killed).
If there is useful NPOV'd info there it should be merged into Violence in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. HistoryBuffEr 04:49, 2004 Oct 4 (UTC)
Who prevents you from writing a couple more articles, if there is something to write about? (But I agree that the word "terrorism" in the title is bad.) Mikkalai 05:29, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep This article should be kept as a standalone, as opposed to the Israeli-Palestinian/Israeli-Arab conflict, as these are primarily fought by Palestinian fighters against the IDF. Violence against Israeli civilians, some which is genocidal, is totally different to the main conflict between the IDF and Palestinian militants. Don't go on about how keeping this article is POV when it is a seperate idea. Those who still believe it is POV can read the dispution message up the top. It is also a benefit to keep this article seperate as opposed to a merger as it keeps bellow the maximum file size. Evolver of Borg 18:05, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. --YUL89YYZ 13:26, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. The article maintains an important record of who was killed/wounded and whether they where civilians/soldiers or unarmed/armed (beginning in 2004). This distinct tally for civilians:unarmed vs soldiers/armed should be expanded from 2004 to all other years. Lance6Wins 14:03, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Keep. Suggestions to "merge" look suspiciously like part of a censorship campaign. If more Arabs are dying than Jews, by a ratio of 5:1 in the Arab-Israeli conflict then that might mean that there is less violence against Israelis or that it's less important, or that it's justified. Let our readers make those judgments. We should just provide all the relevant info we can find, and organize it as well as we can. If it's accurate and neutral, the article should stay. Any merge with Violence against Arabs or "Violence against Palestinians" will only aggravate the edit wars. --Uncle Ed 15:31, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
  • Merge and Redirect -- I had voted for "Redirect and protect redirect" on the "Occupation of Palestine" VfD, and this seems to me the only neutral thing to do. Etz Haim 00:53, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This VfD has expired

This VfD expired 5 days after being open (on Sep 27 at 13:33), on Oct 2 at 13:33. Here's the Tally:

  • Merge and Redirect: 8 of 9 (89%).
  • Keep: 1 of 9 (11%)

Consensus: Merge and Redirect

HistoryBuffEr 02:53, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)

It is most disingenuous of HistoryBuffEr to arrive at this verdict when there are at least 14 Keeps. This is not right, and deserves to be protested. IZAK 03:02, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

No need to whine and falsely accuse people, you can try a Vote to undelete. HistoryBuffEr 03:10, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)
The issue was obviously still open and being debated. Jayjg 03:12, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"whine and falsely accuse people"? Heavens to Betsy, why would anyone want to do that? IZAK 03:22, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not expired

Notwithstanding HistoryBuffEr's strange math, a VfD is live and can continue being voted on until an admin gets around to ruling on consensus. -- Cecropia | Talk 03:16, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Really? From Deletion policy:
At the end of five days if a "rough consensus" ... has been reached
HistoryBuffEr 03:29, 2004 Oct 5 (UTC)
Yes, really. This is modified by the statement on the "old votes" page, where it is noted that the voting is open until an admin acts on it. This is further reinforced by Wikipedia:Deletion_guidelines_for_administrators which especially notes Wikipedia bias against deletion "When in doubt, don't delete." (The bold face is in the original, I didn't add it.) And see my "pending decision" section below.
Pending decision
  • OK, I see History's reasoning—he is trying to freeze the vote as of five days after posting. But VfD's, like most Wikipedia votes, are to determine consensus, not play games of "timing gotcha." Admins are given broad discretion to determine consensus in a VfD with the general policy being that a 2/3 vote to delete is consensus, but keeping in mind that "if in doubt, don't delete"—i.e., the Wikipedia policy is prejudiced against deletion. I am going to leave this discussion up for another 24 hours (to approx 0400Z 6 Oct 2004) to give advocates on both sides time to understand this and have their say, and if another admin does not act first, I will act on this.

As of now, even judging "merge" as implicit votes for "deletion" as a separate article, there is clearly no consensus for deletion as a separate article, and even less for deletion of the content. Barring a significant change in consensus, I will move this discussion to article talk, and then you all can take it from there. I am not an editor on this article. -- Cecropia | Talk 03:50, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My "merge" vote (although it's cast late) should be interpreted as Cecropia suggests. Etz Haim 04:04, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)
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