Wikipedia talk:Non-free content

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Defining borderline case

Image:10040550.jpg, a promotional photo from All in the Family is used, in addition to All in the Family, in the article 1970s. There is some discussion and commentary with regards to the show's iconic reflection of this decade. However, when conferring with the section Wikipedia:Fair_use#Images I would conjecture a stark contrast with the spirit of the descriptive passage on photographs of art works (there is no mention for screenshots that could help settle the inquiry): "Paintings and other works of visual art. For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school." Had this passage read "...illustrative of a particular technique, school or period", howeverm I would have surmised a stark parallell instead.

Am I correct in perceiving here where the line is drawn, i.e. had the promo image from the TV series instead been a work of art of a style that was prominent in that period, it would not pass the Fair Use test? Otherwise, should the cited text be appended as I indicate above? __meco 17:52, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

If a work can be dated to a period by visual inspection, that implies that there was some technique/school/style that was prevalent in the period, and that the image could be used as illustration of that technique/school/style. However, typically something used as fair use as illustration of a technique/school/style should only be used in an article discussing the technique/school/style; are you going to add a discussion about the period's style to the show's article? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I found it difficult putting this issue into words, and I realize I haven't succeeded in making my point. All the more since noone else has addressed my question either. It's about illustrating social trends of a time period – in this case the 1970s – using a Fair Use image from a television show that was iconic to the zeitgeist of that decade. I will try and elaborate more if need be. __meco 15:21, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Although this inquiry did not trigger a discussion of the Fair use principles and how they are applied, I have in another discussion on this page aired the opinion that our criteria are opaque, even ambiguous, and I intend to make an attempt at clarification. __meco 08:24, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Resuscitation attempt

Short version: Does Image:10040550.jpg qualify as Fair Use on this page: 1970s ? __meco 17:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

My guess would be not. All in the Family was important in the 1970s, this image was not. The image just illustrates the mention to All in the Family, i.e., a decorative use.--Abu Badali 17:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Rights given

If I contacted a company and asked them for permission to use images of their products on Wikipedia. Got them to fax me a letter stating that they don't mind, but in fact welcome the use of their promotional pictures. Would that be against the rules of fair use? Or would it break some other policy like original research? Or would the images have to be released under some licence? Same goes for screenshots of their product in action (like games and computer software). Havok (T/C/c) 06:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe they have to licence their images under a free licence, then we will no longer need to claim fair use. Wikipedia-only permission is not acceptable, as this project wants to be forkable. --Abu Badali 07:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

A good place to start if you contemplate asking someone for permission to use their material on Wikipedia is Wikipedia:Boilerplate request for permission. __meco 07:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with Wikipedia:Boilerplate request for permission is that it askes for them to release it under GNU, which will most likely never happen. And fair use being so strict as to not allow the use of screenshots and images of products that the company wants people to use in describing, showing off and in other ways promote their product is strange. Yes, I do understand the legality and reasoning behind the current policy, but there should be some sort of compromise. For example, when no free image can be obtained (as is the case for screenshots). I guess we chould take a photo of our monitor showing of a game, but that would be rather silly. :P Havok (T/C/c) 07:41, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with getting people's permission to use the image (see {{withpermission}}) however it doesn't change much. The image is still unfree as long as they just gave permission to use it, so it must still be used in acordance with Wikipedia fair use policy. We can not use images based on {{permission}} to use alone. It's not so much about about wether or not they mind us using the image as it is about wether or not they agree to let anyone use, modify and sell the image. Oh and taking a photo of the screen changes nothing, if the copyrighted game content is a prominent part of the photo it's still just a copy of copyrighted content, same as a regular screenshot, just of poorer quality. --Sherool (talk) 08:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"Yes, I do understand the legality and reasoning behind the current policy, but there should be some sort of compromise." Actually, current policy is the compromise. Other languages' Wikipedias don't have any "fair use" provision at all and only free images are allowed. English Wikipedia might have gone that way, but instead it was decided to allow fair-use images under very strict conditions as a compromise. User:Angr 08:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"Oh and taking a photo of the screen changes nothing, if the copyrighted game content is a prominent part of the photo it's still just a copy of copyrighted content" Does the same apply to hardware? I've taken a photo of the Nintendo DS Lite and released it under CC 2.5. Am I allowed to do that? And why wouldn't the same apply for pictures taken of my PC monitor playing X game? Havok (T/C/c) 09:08, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

As I understand it (and I may well be mistaken) the difference is between a two-dimensional object like a screen display and a three-dimensional object like the Nintendo thing. A photograph of a copyrighted two-dimensional object is considered a faithful copy of it and therefore is not a new work but instead is subject to the same copyright as the original, while a two-dimensional photograph of a three-dimensional object is not a faithful copy and so the photographer can license the photograph however he likes. User:Angr 09:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If anyone could confirm this I would be greatful. I just don't understand the problem with using screenshots of games as they are in effect only representing a static image of what the game is. And if we want to use them, they need to have some sort of critical commentary, which is even more absured. Please enlighten me, as the fair use page is very sketchy on this, and could be interpreted many ways by different people. Havok (T/C/c) 10:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that you are in fact mistaken. If there is no creativity in creating a work, it's not subject to independent copyright; even if it is subject to copyright, that doesn't eliminate restrictions on derivative works. The fact that a screenshot of a game is two-dimensional is irrelevant, because there's still usually creativity involved in choosing where to take it: there's a fantastically large heap of possibilities that often (with today's 3D games) involve all the creative aspects of taking a photograph and then some.

The reason that you own full rights to images of your hardware is because there, the underlying object isn't itself sufficiently creative to merit copyright. Hardware is typically designed in a pretty functional manner. There are, however, grey areas; if your hardware contains a graphical logo, and the logo is the main point of the picture, then it may have to be fair use. Where exactly to draw the line is hard to say; it seems to me (as a non-lawyer) that your Nintendo DS image can probably be assumed free. See Ets-Hokin v. Skyy Spirits, Inc. 39ff. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Confirm what exactly? ed g2s • talk 18:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

If you read Angr's comment and then mine, I want comfirmation on what he said about 2D and 3D objects when taking a picture. Havok (T/C/c) 11:33, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought so. It's a bit of a grey area, but he's pretty much right. Taking a photo of a screen would be no better than a real screenshot, and usually a photo of a 3D object is considered an original work. ed g2s • talk 13:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a photo of a 3D object is certainly a copyrightable work in almost all cases, but it may nevertheless be a derivative work and thus unfree, even if its creator makes his contributions to it free. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Number of fair use screenshots per article

Hi --hoping someone can help me clarify something. I can't find anything directly addressing this, but on the upload page for images, I see that the fair use rationale for screenshots is listed as "Screenshots (one per arcticle)". Is this a still a valid part of our fair use practices? I thought it was, but then, I can't seem to find it anywhere else. Am I missing something? -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 17:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

That isn't a hard-and-fast rule. However, the quantity of fair-use work should always be kept to the minimum possible for you to make whatever point you're making (identification, criticism, etc.). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

TV/Music Vid screenshots?

Two questions; I find a lot of TV screenshots with the film copyright box - was the tv box added later and these images are older, or were they just misclassified?

My main question is regarding music videos. The fair use copyright for music videos says: "for identification and critical commentary on the music video in question" while the use for film/tv says: "for identification and critical commentary on the film and its contents"

Someone deleted a music video screenshot from an article I keep my eye which is an article on a person who appears in the video (a band member); they did so on the basis that the article is not about the video (and thus does not ID or comment on the video); Now, I know there are thousands of screenshots on wiki for TV characters and Movie characters that use tv/film screenshots, so my question is whether there is a legal difference that would allow this for TV/Film but not for music videos; I'm not sure if the "and its contents" at the end of the film tag means anything in this case, but if there's no legal difference, perhaps "and its contents" should be added to the music video template as well? Either way; I'd like to hear opinion on whether there is a legitimate case for taking down music vid images. (which are just as publicly displayed on TV as other TV shows, right?). Thanks TheHYPO 19:41, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, if the image is not being discussed it shouldn't be on the page. Being "publicly displayed on TV" has no bearing on its copyright status. ed g2s • talk 20:03, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

My point with the displaying on TV comment is that it should therefore have the same criteria as a TV show screencap, which are often used to discuss actors and characters, but not necessarily the show itself... TheHYPO 20:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

They are, but they shouldn't be (in most cases). ed g2s • talk 20:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Characters too? I see where this makes sense regarding actors (since the film/show/etc is not the main point of the article). But I'm curious about the application of this to articles about characters who exclusively occur, for example, in a certain film. Isn't it fair to consider the character to be an element of the film? I assume that if I were writing an article about Citizen Kane, for example, I could use a screenshot from that movie, and if I were writing an article called, say, "Cinematography in Citizen Kane", I could still use the same image because the film's cinematography is still part of the film. Would this suddenly change if I were writing an article about Charles Foster Kane, who only exists as an element of the film as well? -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 02:09, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

An image will be allowed if it is used to illustrate a specific point within the text that couldn't be illustrated any other way. I believe the Citizen Kane examples you give would probably be allowed, provided there was significant discussion in each case. ed g2s • talk 10:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Are scans of video game discs and carts fair use or free use?

I've seen cart scans tagged as being public domain with no qualm. I don't see any mention in any policy about what they qualify as. Can someone clarify and point me in any potentially right direction? --TJive 16:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Under normal circumstances, the art and design of a video game cartridge is copyrighted to one of the companies involved in its production. A simple reproduction, such as a scan, neither grants copyright to the scanner nor diminishes the original author's protection. Therefore, the scanner is not able to relicense or release the image to the public domain. All such scans should include a fair use tag and rationale, though I don't doubt that we have many mislabeled instances. ×Meegs 17:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't locate any scans that I might have seen, but there are two instances of carts being reproduced that I can easily relocate. One is a picture of the system with the cart inside. The other is said to be a picture of a cartridge but is very nearly the same as a direct scan. They are very clearly derivative. Does the distinction made justify the images being released into the public domain? I do not intend to raise any dispute with these users but am wondering about policy in this regard as I might have intentions for similar pictures or scans. It doesn't seem spelled out explicitly. --TJive 17:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Scans of video game discs and carts should be under fair use. However, there is no explicit rule surrounding this as well. --Siva1979^{Talk to me} 17:20, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The first image is arguably free, on the logic of Ets-Hokin v. Skyy, but I wouldn't count on it (since the logo is displayed prominently and is much more creative than the label in that case). The second is pretty clearly not free. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 22:47, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Scans of basically any media cover should be fair use when used in an article about that piece of media. Perhaps we could create a generic template for this sort of thing, for the rare things which fall outside the realm of album covers and the like. And no, scanning something along does not create any copyright claims (you can neither claim copyright to a scan nor claim that your scan is in the public domain). However the photograph of the console does have some "creative" elements (lighting, arrangement). The best way to label those sorts of things is to say that the artwork on the game shown is copyrighted (and definitely fair use in this context), and that the photograph of the console is public domain (or whatever). Things can have multiple copyright statuses. --Fastfission 02:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

What defines promotional?

In order for an image to fulfill the {{promotional}} tag, does it have to be part of an explicitly marked press pack or are online publicity images acceptable? The particular case that's vexing me is the images on the FIFA photo gallery that could be very useful for articles about various FIFA officials (for example Sepp Blatter). Would it be acceptable to use these images for that purpose? --Daduzi ^talk 02:48, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Promotional image without a source link

I'm having some problem with an issue directly linked to this question. The image Image:Allison_Janney.jpg shows a character of a cancelled TV show. According to the uploader (and I do not doubt his word), the image was taken from the now defunct website for the show. It's tagged as {{promotional}} but, without a verifiable source. I have marked the image as {{no source}} twice, and got reverted. Now I had put the image on ifd. Althoug I do not doubt this user's word when he says the image was taken from a defunct promotional website, and althoug I don't have an idea on where to find a valid image of a character of a defunct TV show to be used, I am very against the keeping of this image due to amount of FU abuse this move would allow.

Are we going to accept any (or most) image marked as {{promotional}} without a source? If we do not have a verifiable source, how can we tell promotional images from images intended for fee-based licensing, for instance? Are we going to allow this only for defunct tv shows? I believe that the {{promotional}} tag is already one of the most hard to verify. If we start oppening this kind of exceptions, FU abuse control would become even harder task to take than it already is. --Abu Badali 21:22, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

How many obstacles and hoops are we going to make people jump over and through to allow fair use on Wikipedia? Are we going to delete all fair use images whose URLs are no longer valid? Since when does "verifiable" mean "trivially verifiable by only clicking a link"? One can probably verify this image comes from where the uploader says it does from by writing to NBC and asking them... or, with a little bit of effort, one can verify the source of this image by persuing the Internet Archive and finding the photo at http://web.archive.org/web/20010913011345/nbc.com/The_West_Wing/photo/20.html. And from there, one can find that the image still exists on nbc.com! DHowell 02:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with DHowell. If you see an image that states a source that seems plausible, I can't see any alternative to accepting it until sufficient evidence is raised to cast doubt on it. How else would any image that the uploader says he or she created be keepable? —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 05:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair use images in lists

See Wikipedia:Fair use/Fair use images in lists for a request for comment about the use of fair use images in lists. This RFC arose out of a dispute about the use of images on list of Lost episodes and has grown beyond that article to have broader significance for lists generally. Please join the discussion if you are interested in this issue. --bainer (talk) 04:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Cover art - Is "critical commentary" necessary?

The policy page says that cover art may be used "for identification and critical commentary (not for identification without critical commentary)", but most cover art tags mention only "Illustration" (that I interpret as Idenficication). Is the policy statement on this page to narrow?

• {{albumcover}} says: "solely to illustrate the album or single in question"
• {{Boardgamecover}} says: "to illustrate the board game in question"
• {{DVDcover}} says: "to illustrate the DVD in question"
• {{Gamecover}} says: "to illustrate the packaging of the game in question"
• some others....

This is probably just about wording. But take for instance the use of an Album cover image on an article's section that just lists (and do not discusses) the discography for some artist. The image is being used solely to illustrate the album or single in question (so, it's ok with the tag) but there's no critical commentary (so, not ok with policy). Am I missing something?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Abu badali (talk • contribs) .

It's probably easier to look at it from the other way. If unfree content is just being used for decoration, we really don't want to be republishing it. Lists (such as discographies), are a contentious issue. Jkelly 19:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the bar for critical commentary is pretty low — as long as it is not purely decorative and is plausibly encyclopedic I think it is probably safe. I waver when it comes to things like lists — in many cases I think it is probably fine anyway, since the use in the list is so different than the actual commercial usage of an album cover. --Fastfission 21:32, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Is critical commentary described somewhere? I want to read up on it. And the only mention of critical commentary is under guidelines, which is in no way policy. Havok (T/C/c) 22:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I read somewhere that the difference between policy and guideline was that guidelines could not be forced ;-) In any case, guidelines are as important as policies, as they focus on behaviour and presentation. Otherwise, we may as well begin bitting newcomers, in example. From what I understand, critical commentary is "left as an exercise to the reader". If you ask me, you fulfill that request when you discuss the image, being that why, how or when it was made, the reception, criticism and controversy it brought, the sequels or derivative work based on it, etc. Most times images are pasted just because there is a lot of text around. An example: pasting a screenshot of Chrono Trigger opening just because we are in the Gameplay section is not covered. However, explaining that the image shows a clock which is supposed to be a representation of the time travelling the game involves, that unofficial sequels like Chrono Cross start in the same way, that the opening music played during the credits section is considered between the most beautifuls ever created, etc (note that some sentences here may not be true, I am just adding them up to create a context), can be considered Fair use (at least, under my own interpretation of the criteria). So, basically, when the article or section describes the image, the image can be inserted. When the article or section does not make reference to the image, it cannot. -- ReyBrujo 23:01, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure whether there's broad-based consensus for that, although there may be. Arniep added it about eight months ago. Use of covers for identification alone is unlikely to violate fair use:

Appellant asserts that each reproduced image should have been accompanied by comment or criticism related to the artistic nature of the image. We disagree with Appellant’s limited interpretation of transformative use and we agree with the district court that DK’s actual use of each image is transformatively different from the original expressive purpose. . . . Originally, each of BGA’s images fulfilled the dual purposes of artistic expression and promotion. . . . In contrast, DK used each of BGA’s images as historical artifacts to document and represent the actual occurrence of Grateful Dead concert events featured on Illustrated Trip’s timeline.

(Bill Graham v. Dorling Kindserley, Second Circuit Court of Appeals.) I don't think there's any need to restrict ourselves beyond that here, personally. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:05, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

To me it seems more and more like fair use is something that is interpreted from person to person. Havok (T/C/c) 23:10, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Which is why our policy is not equivalent to fair use law, but our own strict interpretation of it based on our own needs (such as minimising unfree media). ed g2s • talk 00:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Game Covers, Screenshots and photos

Yet another topic. I've been researching a little, and came over this on Nintendo's Press site

"No trademark and/or copyright license (either express or implied) is granted to the recipient, provided, however, that the recipient may reproduce the Images without any alteration and solely for non-promotional, non-commercial and/or editorial purposes."

Would the images posted there go under "editor purpose" on Wikipedia, or does it not apply to us? Havok (T/C/c) 23:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Personal opinion: I believe "editorial purposes" is basically "critical commentary". The FAQ states that they will never grant rights, although we may still be allowed under the relevant laws of the particular jurisdiction involved. (which I guess means Fair use). -- ReyBrujo 23:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Such a restrictive license is of no use to us and, as such, is (almost) completely irrelevant in evaluating a fair use claim. ed g2s • talk 00:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

They're basically saying that they're down with a lot of use as "fair use", which is nice, but not necessary. --Fastfission 01:31, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

NOGALLERY

I added the __NOGALLERY__ tag to the speedy deletion category, but was later reverted. Per a small discussion here, it seems it is useful not to use the tag in that category, to quickly differenciate attack images and to keep images separated from pages. Per the same discussion, shouldn't a category, list or template exist to categorize/include pages where the tag should not be applied? Categories existing in such list would be discussed somewhere (Village Pump maybe?) to see if they get consensus enough to become exceptions (as stated at FUC #9, Exceptions can be made on a case-by-case basis if there is a broad consensus that doing so is necessary to the goal of creating a free encyclopedia).

Note that I have added the tag to several other categories. If determined categories like Category:All images with unknown copyright status should not be tagged, it would be a good time to determine, before I continue tagging them. Thanks. -- ReyBrujo 00:16, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a possibly a case for an exception for categories which list images that are being processed for deletion, but categories which list unfree images which we expect to keep should have to NOGALLERY keyword to comply with FUC#9. ed g2s • talk 11:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The galleries certainly made processing the daily no license/no source cats much easier, both for deleting similar images together and for rescuing easily rectified images (like album covers with missing info). ×Meegs 11:53, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I will continue tagging article categories and leave these for now. Other reasons I decided to tag them was to actually speed up processing (as loading images is slower than getting the text), and to prevent "discrimination" of images (where editors choose which images to process first instead of processing them all in a sorted way). However, I see these are valid points, and will not tag new maintenance categories anymore (and will rollback changes if the maintenance criteria is agreed). -- ReyBrujo 12:06, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

As I said before I found the category galleries quite useful and have to agree with Meegs that especially for Images with unknown copyright status they were very helpful in spotting duplicates... --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 12:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Being bold I've created a category for pages that will be semi-permenant exemptions to FUC#9, Category:Wikipedia fair use exemptions. This may be useful to use as a flag for bots to avoid when doing future updates. Please dicuss it on Category talk:Wikipedia fair use exemptions. — xaosflux ^Talk 03:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The category above is in production, with the discussion benig held at Wikipedia:Fair use exemptions and it's talk . — xaosflux ^Talk 03:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Brief VS Extensive

"Brief attributed quotations of copyrighted text used to illustrate a point, establish context, or attribute a point of view or idea may be used under fair use. Text must be used verbatim: any alterations must be clearly marked as an elipsis ([...]) or insertion ([added text]) or change of emphasis (emphasis added). All copyrighted text must be attributed.

In general, extensive quotation of copyrighted news materials (such as newspapers and wire services), movie scripts, or any other copyrighted text is not fair use and is prohibited by Wikipedia policy."

Can someone define brief and extensive for me? William conway bcc 03:40, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we could use some of these links as guide? Both state about the same information (haven't checked them completely), and seem to be pretty up to date (Agreement on Guidelines for Classroom Copying in Not-for-Profit Educational Institutions With Respect to Books and Periodicals (included in House Report 94-1476) and On November 2, 2002, President Bush signed into law Senate Bill 487): [1] [2]

Maybe cutting the numbers given in those links to half may ensure a better Fair use usage. -- ReyBrujo 03:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

No publisher has been found that says that 200 words is NOT fair use. that is they all agree 200 words is OK. Rjensen 10:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Surely that depends on the length of the original. Quoting all 200 words of a 200-word poem or essay is bound not to be OK. User:Angr 10:47, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

"Not OK" is not exactly a legal term. The 4 criteria always apply. The most important is the economic impact of the reprint--it may have no economic impact at all if the essay/poem is not marketed separately, That is if it's one of 100 poems in a book and the book is the commercial product, then quoting all of one poem is fair use. Rjensen 10:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

The fourth criteria—economic impact—is actually the least important, legally speaking, though it is probably the most important, practically speaking (determining whether or not a copyright holder will care at all). Angr is right that it depends on the length of the original, the character of the original, the way in which it is being used, and whether or not it consistutes the "heart" of the work, generally speaking. --Fastfission 16:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not exactly true that the fourth criterion is least important. It's actually quite important (I recently read a case where the opinion said that the first and fourth were the most important, although what case it was I unfortunately can't recall). Perfect 10 v. Google is a (presumably ongoing?) case where the fourth factor was a major component, since the court ruled that Google's thumbnails competed for the PDA-background market that Perfect 6 had begun targeting. Commerciality of the purportedly fair use, however, is relatively unimportant. In any case, the test is four-factor, and no one factor is dispositive. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

fair use vs PD image on Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Could someone have a look at Talk:Ayaan Hirsi Ali#Fair_use_image. I think that according to the policy the public domain would have to be used, not the fair use one. But I am not a 100 percent sure. Garion96 ^(talk) 14:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

By the way, where's the best place to ask for such help on specific cases? It's not a critic! It's just that I also need help in one or more cases where disscussion had come to a deadlock and I'm not sure where to go. I left a message on Wikipedia:Fair use review , but the page seems dead... is anyone watching that? --Abu Badali 22:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for taking a look. The fair use image is removed. And yes, I also wondered where to ask. I totally forgot Wikipedia:Fair use review, but you're right, that doesn't seem like a much watched page. Garion96 ^(talk) 22:32, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Guideline vs Policy

Would it be handy to move the policy section to the top of the page? Right now the first thing people see when they look at the page is "Although it may be advisable to follow it, it is not policy" instead of "it is considered a standard that all users should follow". The policy section seems to be important enough to warrant being the first thing people see. Garion96 ^(talk) 23:51, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Never mind, see Wikipedia:Fair use criteria. Garion96 ^(talk) 15:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Using several FU images to illustrate same object

In Oprah Winfrey 8 Fair Use images are applied to illustrate this article. Would it be reasonable to remove 7 of them? __meco 10:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

No; in fact I would not only call such an action unreasonable but fanatical and stupid. --TJive 10:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be reasonable to remove all eight of them. Removing only seven would be a fair compromise. User:Angr 11:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

What a surprise; immediate retaliation. --TJive 11:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I am basing my question on the guidelines listed here on WP:FU. could you present your reasoning for disagreeing, preferably without adding vituperative comments? __meco 12:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

You would have to consider each image individually and see if it is necessary. They are not claiming to just illustrate Oprah, but historical events in her career. ed g2s • talk 13:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I see 6 pics on the article. Not bad. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 01:18, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Illustrating a movie genre

Fair Use is acceptable according to WP:FU when "Paintings and other works of visual art. For critical commentary, including images illustrative of a particular technique or school." Would this suffice for the ample use of FU images on Fantasy film, a movie genre? I.e. could a movie genre be likened to a school of art? __meco 14:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I would say some screenshot(s) may be used as long as they content is representative of the "movie school of art", and as long as they image content is really discussed (and not only mentioned). I don't believe this is the case with all the movie posters on Fantasy film. It's a common pratice on Wikipedia to use a movie poster (or one or more screenshots) whenever a movie name is barely mentioned. --Abu Badali 14:44, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I am removing a great number of such listings now. __meco 15:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Kudos to you. The most frustrating thing about this taks is that these pages are mostly editted by celebrity fans, and they commonly take it personally when you remove "theirs images" from "their pages". After all, the "images are fair use" (sic) because they "greatly improve the article". :) Let us know whenever you need some help. --Abu Badali 16:38, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I will, and just to remind myself I also notice that History of science fiction films has the same FU issue as Fantasy film does. __meco 16:54, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Who to turn to

In my enterprise to clean up inappropriate use of FU images the last 24 hours, pruning hundreds of pages, mostly movie awards using movie posters, I came across a few users who apparently have little regard for our policies and thus continue to upload and apply copyrighted material inappropriately, despite having been warned. I'm no administrator, so what I would like to do is simply to report those cases some place. However, I felt that WP:AN isn't the place for this (or is it?). Maybe this is? For example, User:Dylankidwell keeps several FU images in his user space, he has been warned but keeps adding. __meco 08:52, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

AN is perhaps too high traffic. This is a good location, since everyone watching here is interested in the subject and most are administrators. Keep in mind, that the only thing you need to be an administrator for is to actually push that block or protect button, and we like to resolve things in other ways when possible. I'll go look at Dylankidwell. --Gmaxwell 08:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Copyright owner complaint

What happens if I use a photo under fair use and a person claiming to be the copyright owner asks for its removal?

The image in question is a photo of a living writer. I made a low-resolution copy and uploaded it to Wikipedia (not en.wp). The image is used only in the article about that writer. Now an anonymous user asked: "what kind of authorisation i gave to use a photo taken by me?"

What should I do? Thanks. — AdiJapan ☎ 13:46, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I would ask him to contact Wikimedia Foundation, as anyone can claim to be the owner. Havok (T/C/c) 13:48, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Note that the subject of the image doesn't hold the copyright to the image. The photographer does. Regardless, do tell him to contact the WMF about it, at Wikipedia:Contact us/Article problem/Copyright. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:13, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, I've just done that. — AdiJapan ☎ 07:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Screenshot fair use criteria

Can anyone here explain the extent of the fair use criteria for film screenshots? I am unclear how the "Film and television screen shots. For critical commentary and discussion of the cinema and television." bit works. In particular, I am referring to this edit at the Aragorn article.

The edit summary said "Removing images with no applicable Fair Use rationale". I've asked at the talk page of the editor who did that edit, but I wanted to raise the general point here to get more feedback, as the use here seems to me to be similar to the images used at Darth Vader.

To my mind, the use of film images in articles on characters from The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit is a good example of fair use. The images are used to illustrate the parts of the article that are commentating on (and sometimes comparing) the adaptations of a particular character in a range of film adaptations of a book. To my mind, this counts as critical commentary on the relationship between the characters in a book and the films based on that book.

In the more general case of Tolkien character articles, the use of film images is inconsistent. In many character articles there is a template with a parameter to put an image in an infobox at the top of an article. See for example Samwise Gamgee. However, in my opinion, this gives too much emphasis to the Peter Jackson films (many of the characters have been portrayed in the two other films, by Bakshi and Rankin-Bass respectively). A better approach, IMO, is the way it has been done at Frodo_Baggins#Portrayal_in_adaptations, or Gandalf#Portrayal_in_adaptations. (It was also handled this way at Gollum, but someone recently moved the images around again - trying to use images from the Peter Jackson films to illustrate the character arc from the book - not a justified fair use in my opinion - instead of limiting the images to a "portrayals" section").

I have several questions arising from the above:

1) Would I be justified in reverting the edit at Aragorn?

2) In general, if a character in those three films has an article, would shots from each of the three films be justified under fair-use in the articles about those characters?

3) Should such images be strictly limited to a "portrayls" section, and excised from the template used at the top of the articles?

4) Should the pixel size of the images be restricted?

5) What can I do to prevent someone else removing the images again and making the same mistake. Where would be a convenient place to put a link to the fair use justification. Should that be placed directly on the image pages of such images, or linked from those pages?

Thanks. Carcharoth 15:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The Aragorn images look fine to me -- they are explicitly different portrayals of the same character in different films, and are not just being used to illustrate the page. The question of the template/infobox is not related to fair use considerations IMO. In your specific queries, I would say: 1. yes, but make a note about it on the talk page as well explaining it; 2. yes, 3. not necessarily, at least from a copyright point of view—if one portrayals is much better known than the others then there is a plausible argument for it being at the top, 4. yes in general, but none of the Aragorn images are too large, 5. you should put a fair use justification on the image description pages themselves. Hope that clarifies things, as I see them. --Fastfission 16:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

From Fastfission's response it seems I have been too strict in my interpretation of Fair Use policy. It was particularly the use of image:LOTRROTKmovie.jpg that I found to be trangressing our requirements for critical commentary. I still cannot understand how any of this constitutes critical commentary, however. I expect I will gain a better feel for how consensus opinion on this page regards this concept as this discussion continues. __meco 18:16, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Fair use policy needs to be made more specific in lots of cases. Your attitude is welcome because it bring these issues into question. --Abu Badali 19:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

To speak directly to Carcharoth's particular issue, would it be unfair to use a representation of the character for one of the various illustrated versions of the trilogy that have been printed? It would seem that the article's about the character, who appeared first and foremost in the books. Or would that not be fair-usable in this case? Barring that, perhaps an illustration could be created and released as free media just for the sake of illustrating certain characters; that would be the free-est solution. But I would think in either case, the movies aren't (or shouldn't be) the primary focus of the article -- for the most part, Lord of the Rings is best known as a series of books. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 20:07, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I would say that such artwork could be fair use in a section on how the character has been portrayed by artists. But as there is a wide range of such artworks, the problem becomes how to chose one over another. Carcharoth 10:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The use of the LOTR-ROTK movie poster in the infobox for Aragorn is against the Wikipedia FU policy, in my opinion. The use of some screenshot in the "Portrayal in adaptations" section, one per adaption being discussed, is ok. There's no other way to depict a movie/cartoon character other than with a screenshot. Low resolution is prefered, of course. And I would apply this rationale to any movie/cartoon/comic-book character. Some good examples of that are (some of) the articles on X-men characters, like Beast, Jean Grey or Cyclops. Each of these articles contains a apparently excessive number of fair use images, but when you look carefully, each image shows the charater in a new incarnation. I would not find a fair use rationale for picking some book character image to use in a infobox, though. Book characthers (usually) do not have a face.

Replying the quiz: 1) rv just the "Portrayal in adaptations" section, add some screenshot of Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn to this section if you want. Leave the infobox empty (of images). 2) Apply "1)" to any character of any book. 3) Yes. 4) They Should be low-res. I believe those cartons screenshots in Aragorn are ok. We need to check for the others character's articles. 5) leave a html comment on the page, nearby the image use, pointing the reader to the discussion that settled the issue. Or if you preffer, pointing to some section on the talk pages with lots of links do different disucssions/policies. Just my $0.02. --Abu Badali 19:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies so far. I've been able to move forward on some of the issues, and now have a clearer idea of how fair use applies here. I'll inform WikiProject Middle-earth as well. Carcharoth 10:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Put simply: current fair-use policy is unclear and its exact bounds are currently under debate. Different people will have different opinions on whether your specific example is okay. I recently came under a good deal of fire for my stated views on fair use, including from the Wikimedia Foundation's general counsel; while previously I would have strongly felt that the image should have been kept, I think I'm going to stay out of controversial cases like this for the time being at least. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:32, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Such an elegant way to state your opinion and avoid further discussion on it. ;) --Abu Badali 23:44, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I would have thought that this would be a good occasion to obtain a higher level of clarity. If "critical commentary" and "discussion" aren't going to be the standards (if they ever were) then we might change those wordings to something less rigid, more in line with current practice. __meco 23:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Let's move to more concret steps. I have some proposals on what to do.

First, we should identify the more common Fair Use "mistakes" and list them on the corresponding template as Warnings. For instance, {{Movie-screenshot}} and {{Tv-screenshot}} should contain in "Using this image as the main/only picture of some actor's article is probably on violation of fair use". {{promotional}} should contain: "Note that not all images available on the web are intended for widespread distribution by the copyright holder".{{Magazinecover}}, {{Bookcover}} and the like should contain: "Do not use this image on an article about some person unless the publication of this issue has been one of the more notable events on this person's life". {{DVDcover}}, {{Videotapecover}}, {{Movieposter}}, and the like should mention: "If the whole article (or the article's section) using this image is not about the movie into question, this is a violation of fair use.". I agree that all of these would be redundant with the current text on all theses tags and also with the Fair Use guidelines, but the redundancy and the counter-exemple-directed tone would be a greate strategy to conterpart the subjective nature of the fair use discipline.

The image upload page has been recently changed to include a warning on these lines, but people seem to ignore it: "Images found on websites or on an image search engine should not be uploaded to Wikipedia."

Some tags ask for the used to put a fair use rationale on the image page. But there's not a mechanism into work to dispute such claims. Should it be done inline? Should it be done in the image talk page? In another special page? Wikipedia:Fair use review seems dead. Maybe it should behave like Wikipedia:Images for deletion and, if some "fair use" claim is disputed for N days, it should be considered withdrawn. We should also have a list of "invalid claims" so, that we stop having to deal with fair use claims like "The image is illustrative of the topic of the article" or "The image itself is critical comment on the movie" and "The contents of the image are mentioned in the image caption, so, it's fair use."

I'm probably being too strict here. But these are just my current thoughs, and I'm ready to shamelessly change them. --Abu Badali 00:28, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm strongly in support of clarification on the guideline page, in templates as warnings, and any place else we can get away with. As for the specific statements, however, it seems what we really need to clarify is the definition of "sufficient discussion" of an image as it applies in different contexts. That's the part that really throws me, and I know a lot of editors feel the same way. Unless clarification of this already exists and I'm just being dense. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 01:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

To Abu Badali's thought about perhaps requiring the presentation of fair use rationale on the image page (which you say some tags already state), would it be possible (or welcomed) to require that fair use images could only be introduced in an article using a template comparable to the cite templates for text. Something akin to this:

{{fair use image
 | image = 
 | thumb = 
 | placement = 
 | size = 
 | caption = 
 | licence = 
 | rationale = 
 | date = 
 | user = 
}}

with the allowance for summary removal if not all fields are provided. __meco 09:11, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I would support such a proposal. Sounds good. Carcharoth 10:13, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

That seems very useful, but it's not totally straightfoward. I'd support it if it were made as clear as possible, or accompanied by instructions for filling it out which made it simple enough for anyone wanting to use it. What goes in the placement and thumb fields? Also, rationale needs to be specific to the article the image is being placed in, would the template be required for each use in an article, or would it allow for lisitng more than one rationale statement? Also, if this in only for fair use images, would it be fair to replace "license" with "copyright information" ?

placement would correspond to "right" or "left" and thumb would say "thumb" where in normal image tags it says thumb, otherwise that field would be blank. "Copyright information" or "licence", whichever. My intention is that this template would supersede the normal image tag for fair use images, so it would have to be used separately for each image in the article, forcing a separate in situ rationale for each fair use image. __meco 00:26, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I think a lot of Wikipedia's don't adhere to our fair use policy simply because they don't understand it. New forms may be ignored if they aren't dazzlingly clear. The simpler the better. -- Lee Bailey^(talk) 13:03, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. The clearer the better. A huge number of mistakes are made in good faith because so much of the wording is imprecise. Could the wording in the screenshot template "the film and its contents" be reworded or clarified at the same time? ie what is meant by "the contents"? - is it the actors, the visual style, the cinematography, the costumes... all of the above? none of the above? Rossrs 14:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Suport! Aren't we votting yet? ...ok :) . I believe the reason for a lot of Wikipedians not adhering to Wikipedia fair use guidelines is because a lot of them see Wikipedia as a big blog. I would say many editors see Wikipedia just like a big website about "things", and they can help this website from becoming boring by uploading cool images. And as it is so easy to find an image on Google, upload it, pick some fair use tag ({{promotional}} always works) and add it to some article... fair use policying will alway be slower than fair use abuse. With this proposal (or some evolved version of it) in place, abuses could be get on the eyespot. It wouldn't be a cure, of course. But I see Meco's proposal as a potential. great advance. --Abu Badali 14:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Reversal at Disco

Another of my edits have been reversed here. Again, I disagree that this serves any other purpose than illustration/identification (particularly not critical commentary on the content of the movie poster in question). __meco 18:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The user who did the reversal not even took the time to wrtte an edit summary. In may opinion, the movie poster in the Disco do not adds essential information. It's an FU abuse IMHO. --Abu Badali 19:06, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The template reads "to illustrate the movie in question or to provide critical analysis of the poster content or artwork" - pretty clear that the movie is not being discussed in such detail that a poster is needed, and neither the poster or the artwork are discussed, so I can't interpret it as FU. I think you were correct in removing it. Rossrs 14:26, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Entry below copied from Talk:Fair use: (meco 08:34, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

Fair use and toy boxes

On a lighter side of fair use, sometimes there is a wikipedia entry for a toy. People will quote the several sentences of the description on the front or back of the toy box, saying it's fair use since it's openly printed to the general public. Others point out the copyright notice on the box bottom and remove the toy description from the wikipedia entry. Is there any official call on this? Is it fair to quote the words on a toy box in a Wikipedia entry for a toy. user:mathewignash

It would depend on the exact circumstances. In general, I don't think there would be any reason to directly quote more than about a sentence or two, and that would probably be unnecessary in most cases as well. Just describe the toy. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 20:45, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

"In general" I agree. I can think of a few exceptions. Sometimes a toy's marketing and/or packaging are part of what makes it memorable or fun, and certain phrases may have stuck in people's minds from when they were children. In that case it might IMHO be worthy of note, but just enough to give the flavor and to jog people's memories about the toy. You might write something like "the manufacturer described this toy as 'fun for all ages, from the Middle Ages to the Space Age'" (a made-up example that probably wouldn't actually be that notable). Another example which is closer to criticism might be the ludicrous undercounting of the possible combinations of Rubik's Cube (the packaging said "billions", when the true number is in the quadrillions) -- the article does mention this but quotes the single word "bililons." Always make it clear it's a quote, of course. Jerry Kindall 05:40, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup, as I say: a sentence or two. That's undoubtedly fair, in any conceivable circumstance; possibly it's even de minimis (certainly the Rubik's Cube number falls into the merger doctrine). —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 03:33, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

When the fairuse image looks much better than the free one

A dispute about free vs. fair images at Stephen Harper brings up a need for this page to be even clearer, about if/when a fair use image can be used, when a free image exists. Everbody agrees that if two images are equal in quality, we must use the free image. However, it seems like a constantly repeated debate, as to what to do when the free image is inferior in quality (but still useable and better than no image). --Rob 09:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

This often comes up when we have mugshots, as in Matthew McConaughey, Al Pacino, Carmen Electra, Michelle Rodríguez, as to whether we should use the mugshot or a non free image at the top. Arniep 11:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

So what the fair use image "looks" better, this is the "Free Encyclopedia" so I will take a free image any day of the week. Just tell people to get better shots. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 11:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

As long as the free image is "adequate", it should be used. ed g2s • talk 12:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. Having a free license trumps being aesthetically pleasing, always. But why would mugshots automatically be free? User:Angr 12:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

They probably aren't. See this discussion. --Fritz Saalfeld (Talk) 12:57, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

This has been discussed before a couple of times for sure. I have posted some information here, and then at Jkelly's talk page here. Basically, quality does not matter unless the free picture is already obsolete. -- ReyBrujo 15:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

In cases where we are talking about living people, I think it is not inappropriate to sometimes go with non-free images (the free image could be elsewhere on the page, of course) if the only available free ones are incredibly unflattering or have other POV implications (which a mugshot could potentially—using a mugshot as a main image should only be done in very rare circumstances, since they are by definition both unflattering and encourage the idea of the subject being a criminal). In the case of Harper, though, I don't know why the cropped version is being insisted upon—the larger photo on which it is based (further down the page) is not half bad by itself, but when cropped it looks grainy and washed out. It also doesn't help that it appears that nobody has tried to do any post-processing on the image (i.e. playing with its levels in photoshop). --Fastfission 16:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I was the one who originally put in the free image (the cropped one), but have never "insisted" on only that one (nor has anybody else). I even uploaded another image, which I thought was nicer, but am told is worse. --Rob 20:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The simple fact of the matter is that we shouldn't be using unfree pictures for living people because they represent a compromise of our goal of free content which is clearly unnecessary, that we have a unflattering free picture is just double proof that a free picture is possible. How about this alternative, use the free unflattering image and send a polite request to the subject (or his PR folks) requesting an image under a free license (be specific, make sure you get a cc-by, cc-by-sa, or GFDLed image.. "wikipedia may use" is not sufficient.) --Gmaxwell 21:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I've created a boilerplate request for permission at Wikipedia:Example requests for permission#Formal request for high-quality publicity image. —Simetrical (talk • contribs) 23:32, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

List of episodes using screenshots

It's always unpleasant to tear down the laborious work done by others, but in this case I find no excuse for leaving the matter to status quo. Would anyone care to disagree? __meco 16:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Fair use/Fair use images in lists for a centralised discussion about this. Jkelly 16:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The consensus of said discussion is that the images can't be justified. I'd give it a week or two then implement it as policy. ed g2s • talk 16:24, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I know reaching consensus is not winning a votation, but shouldn't at least a closing statement, at least for the inclusion of screenshots in lists, be issued in that RFC? If we are to remove screenshots from lists, we need to point to the conclusion of the discussion, not to a 60kb page where newbies are likely to get lost. Remember, we are both trying to comply with a policy and teach users about it. -- ReyBrujo 16:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I find Wikipedia:Fair use/Fair use images in lists to be somewhat superfluous, and, more importantly, taking focus away from WP:FU where the "real meat" should reside. As you point out, the more additional pages and discussions we provide the users with the less is the likelihood that they will find their way to WP:FU. __meco 16:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Airing thoughts about current image guideline wording

The section WP:FU#Images needs to be clearified. The introductory text states obliquely a requirement being that the articles "involve critical commentary and analysis". Then the expression "critical commentary" is repeated for some of the subsequent points and for others not. The expression "analysis" is not repeated. Some of the points state a requirement of "identification and critical commentary" others merely "critical commentary" and yet others just "identification". Also, it should be unequivocally clear that it is tha image that must be the object of critical commentary, or if that is not what is meant, what exactly is. __meco 16:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Upstream vs. downstream associations

Would arguing that it would constitute fair use applying an image of a movie poster to the article on the book on which the movie was based be an easier argument than applying it to the article about the lead actors, seeing the latter as derivative entities of the movie whereas the movie would be a derivative entity of the book (and the director filling both these roles at the same time)? __meco 02:57, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

It depends of the contents of the articles, not their primary subjects. Either a book or actor's article may or may not qualify for use of the poster depending on the nature of commentary it contains about the film. In practice, though, I estimate that film materials are misused with much higher frequency in the actor articles. ×Meegs 03:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Image:Armin wegner-pile of bodies-DSC 0124.JPG - fair use or PD?

The person who uploaded this image placed a copyrighted-free-use tag on it, but in the image description he clearly stated that all rights are reserved and that only Wikipedia may use the image. However, this image was apparently created during the time of the Armenian genocide, which took place between 1915 and 1917. Whether or not this image was published at that time is an entirely different question. I changed the image tagging, at least temporarily, to "historic fair-use" and "used with permission on Wikipedia", but, if it is indeed not a PD image, it will have to be reduced in quality. I was wondering if anyone may be able to offer a bit more expertise on the issue? Thanks. --tomf688 (talk - email) 15:33, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Life plus 70 years. Armin T. Wegner Died in 1978. It should enter the public domain in 2049.Geni 16:01, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

And since the photo was not published inside the United States, it is not in the public domain. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 19:03, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Television screenshot question?

Is it fair use to post a screenshot from one episode of a television show in an article about another episode in that same show? See The Runaway Bride (Doctor Who) for an example. -- MisterHand 18:11, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Nope. Given the article size, the photo seems distracting, so it would be good to make the photo disappear. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 23:46, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I would wager that the scene from which that screenshot is taken will be repeated at the beginning of the episode in question, if last year's Christmas special is any indication, and the bride pictured is obviously the "Runaway Bride" of the episode's title. I'd leave it. Jerry Kindall 00:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This use does not comply with Wikipedia Fair use requirements. There is no critical commentary and it serves no other purpose than ornamentation/illustration. The image must be removed. __meco 08:19, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

test question for WP:FUC

I suggest we replace:

As a quick test, ask yourself: "Can this image be replaced by any other image, while still having the same effect?" If the answer is yes, then the image probably doesn't meet the criteria above

with

As a quick test, ask yourself: "Can this image be replaced by any more free image, while still having an adequate effect?" If the answer is yes, then the image doesn't meet the criteria above

I'm not sure (or concerned) with the exact wording, as long as we convey we're looking for a free image that is "good enough". The term "same effect" sets an unreasonable standard for free images, which are much more likely to be made by amateurs, and not look as good, but still be useable.. --Rob 22:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The reason for specifying "any other" is that it's easier to understand (most people wouldn't know a "free image" if it bit them) and it's more in line with the general copyright policy: if there are two non-free images either of which could adequately illustrate the article, then neither of them qualifies for fair use. --Carnildo 23:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

We really ought not to peddle to people who aren't capable of getting into the meaning of "free image" when they are in fact reading Wikipedia:Fair use criteria. The fact that this page doesn't link to WP:FU anywhere should however be remedied. __meco 00:34, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, how is making the language more precise (and thus limiting the potential for confusion and/or conflict over meaning) peddling to anyone? And even if it is, why is that necessarily a bad thing? Not being confrontational here, just confused (as usual). --Daduzi ^talk 00:56, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I just don't think it's viable to omit using the term "free" in order to accomodate those who aren't able to comprehend what that means in relation to fair use material. There will always, and for several reasons, be people who aren't going to "get it". I find focusing on the term free to be constructive. I also don't think the text becomes clearer the way Carnildo proposes. I find Rob's proposition sound as it is. __meco 01:48, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, that explains my confusion: I thought you were arguing against Rob's position, not Canildo's. Confusion resolved, and I agree. --Daduzi ^talk 03:09, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused why Meco complains this page doesn't link to WP:FU anywhere. This page is WP:FU. User:Angr 07:37, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

By "this page", I think he meant WP:FUC, which didn't link to WP:FU until recently. --Rob 08:58, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there a Fair Use Template for Images from Within a Book?

If not I would be willing to create it. I know it's a tricky subject because of fair use and especially because of unfree images in a free encyc. Thoughts Please. -- Peregrinefisher 04:41, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

All images we claim "fair use" on need to have been published previously. What would be the purpose of this template? Jkelly 04:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I've seen templates for book covers and comic panels but not one for book panels/images. It must be OK to use them in certain circumstances and a template could explain the criteria and make it easy to include the correct licensing. -- Peregrinefisher 05:47, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a template for covers and comicpanels because we can be reasonably sure thoes things are copyrighted by the author/publisher of the book or comic. This is not the case with random pictures printed in books in general though, the publisher might simply have bought some non-exclusive licenses to print the images, or they may have taken images from the public domain. There is also no guarantee that an image from a book have any particular relevance to the book itself, wich is genraly what he make "blanket" tags for (covers of albums to ilustrate articles on albums, screenshots of movies to ilustrate articles on the movie etc). So a "picture from a book" template would make little sense, such images need to be evaluated on a case by case basis. --Sherool (talk) 10:15, 14 July 2006 (UTC)