Talk:Frat Pack

Why is Mystery Men listed as a Frat Pack movie?

The only Frat Pack cast member was Ben Stiller, which hardly qualifies it as a Frat Pack movie.

Also a topic for discussion is listing "Wilson Brothers" films like Bottle Rocket and Rushmore as Frat Pack films. I disagree with Wilson Bros. films included as a subset of Frat Pack films.

I think your disagreement is more with Wes Anderson films. I don't think his films really fit into the classification. But then again, what is the classification here? Is any film containing several of these actors to be included in this list? Or is a frat pack movie something that embraces sophomoric humor as its central philosophy? That's how I would classify it, and thus wouldn't regard The Royal Tenenbaums -- despite containing both Wilson brothers and Stiller -- as a frat pack movie. If we go by actors alone, we could argue that Cannonball Run 2 is a Rat Pack film, because it has Frank Sinatra and Sammy Davis Jr. in it. I'm also removing The Cable Guy, because that's just plain wrong. It's got a few of the peripheral frat pack members (most of whom I would argue are misplaced here), but nothing else. Everything else on the list is a movie from the very late 90s, early millenium. The Cable Guy is not frat pack.

Jack Black? Am I just missing things, because I cannot see how he fits in with the rest of them, at least in terms of movies they've done. Ok, even reading what is in the article, I still don't agree with the logic that he should be considered with the other five.

• No, Jack Black should be left in the list. Both the USA Today "Frat Pack" article and the original Entertainment Weekly "Slacker Pack" article include the same 6 in the "pack," and Jack Black is definitely in the Pack. --Josh, September 20, 2005, 7:35 PM EST
  • Indeed, while it didn't seem obvious to me at first, black even had a decent cameo in Anchorman, (which I had somehow forgoten about) combine with his roles in films like Orange County, and you can't really deny his place.

rolling stone included him in their list of six.

This doesn't make any sense whatsoever. None of these actors have anything to do with eachother besides doing a couple of movies together. Doesn't merit being compared to the Rat Pack. --Purchase Mafia

Agreed that the Wes Anderson films are not comedically similar, despite similar stars. Blatant disregard for the topic when "Life Aquatic" is used in place of "The 40 Year Old Virgin" to describe a "Frat Pack" film with only one Frat Pack star. (see http://www.the-frat-pack.com/learn-more.html This is the problem with Wikipedia - no quality control. Black gets additional cred for many appearances with other Frat Pack stars, Stiller and Ferrell in particular (note Black/Ferrell appearances at the 2004 Oscars and 2003 MTV Movie Awards), though we agree his overall credentials are less than Stiller/Ferrell/Vaughn/Wilson/Wilson -- Kevin Crossman, Feb. 27, 2006

Organizational Format

Would it be too much to suggest renaming "Other people who often collaborate on the Frat Pack Films include:" as "Pledges"?

Also, shouldn't Jim Carey and Tim Robins get "Honorable Mentions"? Its clearly stated in the article of their contributions. - ConradKilroy, 20 November 2005, 10:31 AM EST

Also, why was Jackie Chan removed? He's been in movies with Owen and Luke Wilson.

Because he's only been in movies with the Wilson brothers, and never Luke alone (or for only one scene,) and never made an appearance in a Frat Pack movie.--Josh 12:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Even though Jackie wasn't in a Frat Pack movie, he should be on the list on because there is no good reason the Wilson brothers were in 80 Days without some sort of camaraderie. Also, Jack Black and Jackie are together in the upcoming movie Kung Fu Panda. -Kurt 24 May 2006

The 40-Year-Old Virgin

Could The 40-Year-Old Virgin be considered a Frat Pack movie? Steve Carrell and Paul Rudd are both considered to be members and were since their roles in Anchorman: The Legend of Ron Burgundy and are stars in "Virgin..."

• According to the article, neither Steve Carell nor Paul Rudd is a member. --LostLeviathan 02:53, 6 September 2005 (UTC)
  • They're not founding members, but they could very well be considered "Pledges." However, as there were no founding members starring in "The 40-Year-Old Virgin," the movie should be left out of the article for now, until some sort of mass media considers them official members. --Josh, September 20, 2005, 7:37 PM EST

I agree, Steve Carrell deserves to be upgraded, he even sings it so. - ConradKilroy, 20 November 2005, 10:31 AM EST

Granted, media upgrades don't necessarily set grounds for who is in the Frat Pack, but a recent New York Post article (http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/63050.htm) suggests Paul Rudd is also a Frat Pack member. I don't feel Rudd's a member YET, but you could see the validity of the inclusion. He's got co-starring roles in Anchorman, Virgin, and the upcoming Knocked Up, as well as a cameo in Ben Stiller's A Night at the Museum. My point here is that the increasing argument in Rudd's favor raises the overall inclusion of 40 Year-Old Virgin as a Frat Pack film. Sure, if you set strict guidelines, that 40 YOV falls short. However, just as you could argue against, there's more than enough to argue for its inclusion (Frat Pack star, Judd Apatow's involvement, similar farce elements, co-stars like Rudd & Rogen, the Koechner cameo, Frat Pack references to Luke Wilson & Jack Black.) Anyway, while I don't think Rudd's in the Pack yet, I do share the increasingly popular opinion that 40 YOV counts as a Frat Pack film. That's just my two-cents on the whole situation. - Rick Duran, 10 May 2006

New Pledges?

What about Ryan Reynolds (Van Wilder), Kal Penn (Harold & Kumar), John Cho (Harold & Kumar)? I don't know for certain if they have been in any movies with the others of the "Frat Pack" but their humor seems to be in the same style.

I also don't think Jim Carrey should be included. He hasn't starred in any of the more recent/prominent films of the "Pack" nor has he made one of the trademark cameos of the group in fellow packers' films.

Finally - how about a page for the old school comedians? Bill Murray, Dan Akroyd, Chris Farley, David Spade and others formed a similar group back in the day but never received a name per se.

While the humor is similar, the article's about the actual actors that keep working together.

I agree with you about Jim Carrey. The main reason he is listed is because The Cable Guy is considered the first Frat Pack project. I just don't see the harm in leaving him as a friend, because that category isn't that important.

As far as an article involving Farley and Spade, see Bad Boys of SNL.

-Josh, October 30, 2005, 12:34 AM EST.

Total profits?

This paragraph in the article doesn't make sense: "With all their movies' profits ($643,816,307) added together, then subtracting by all of the budgets ($281,000,000), The Frat Pack is ahead by $362,816,307." Is that supposed to be relative to the Rat Pack? --LostLeviathan 02:51, 6 September 2005 (UTC)

That was what I came to the talk page for as well. I was wondering if it's relative to the Rat Pack or the Brat Pack. Also, is inflation taken into account? And where did the statistic come from? I'm going to remove it till someone can show a source... I suspect if I dig deeper I'll be able to find it in one of the references but I don't know which one. Dismas|^(talk) 10:21, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Ahead in terms of profits over costs. Not ahead in profits over profits of some other group. The paragraph simply seeks to illustrate the massive profitability of the cadre of actors. Of course, this information isn't particularly useful in it's acontextual state. IE How many movies added up to that 600 million mark? How does that compare with other films by established comedy toups.

Capitalization

Alright, this has been bothering me for a while, and I decided to finally bring it up. For some reason, "Frat Pack" is redirected to "Frat pack." The fact that it's the title of a group, along with the capitalization used by the media and it being a reference to the Rat Pack, not to mention the capitalization used throughout the entire article, makes me think someone should switch this around and make "Frat Pack" the official title, with "Frat pack" redirecting to it. -Josh, October 10, 2005, 8:19 PM EST

• I went ahead and did this myself. -Josh, October 10, 2005, 8:25 PM EST

I switched revised back to an older version.

Snoop Dogg's not even an actor, and he's only appeared in Old School, playing himself. He's certainly not a friend of the pack. Especially if someone doesn't want to include Chris Parnell. And "40-Year-Old Virgin" only has Steve Carell, and it's not even been determined that he's official yet. The last reviser obviously had no idea what s/he was talking about -Josh, October 21, 2005, 9:15 PM EST

No, Snoop Dogg was in Starsky and Hutch you Huggybear Hater

You're right. I somehow totally forgot about Huggy Bear back when I made that change.--Josh 16:00, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

The "Frat Pack movement"? Come on... we're talking about half a dozen actors who work together. This is a "clique", not a "movement".

"40-Year-Old Virgin" should defnitely count because it also stars Paul Rudd, who was in "Anchorman". By the way for anyone who is interested here is a chart showing most of the connections between the members.

Response to Clean-Up tag.

I removed the paragraph on how the people considered "friends" are connected. It was not well put-together, and was filled with weak connections. I left the information on Steve Carell, as he's been considered a member of the Frat Pack in some articles since the mentioned SNL appearance. I moved the information on directors, which was mixed into the paragraph, after the movies, as I thought it worked better there in the article. --Josh 23:56, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Contradiction - Anchorman director?

The article contradicts itself. Both Adam McKay and Judd Apatow are referred to as the director of Anchorman in different parts of the article.

The article states that 'the dan band' played a cover of 'Lady' by Styx in the bat mitzvah scene in 'Starsky and Hutch'. That song was played in 'Old School', not 'Starsky'. I don't know the name of the song they were playing in 'Starsky.'

Adam Sandler?

Can Adam Sandler be considered member of the Frat Pack? Benzh 11:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

No, he is included with Chris Farley, David Spade, and others in the Bad Boys of SNL.--Jklin 18:28, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Steve Carell?

According to the article carell is a core meber of the frat pack, how? He wasn't even mentioned amongst them untill the 40 year old virgin came out. So how is he a core member? -Brodey

He was a minor character in Anchorman as well as a few roles with Frat Pack members not mentioned as Frat Pack films (like Melinda and Melinda) and is known to have hung out and been good friends with the group outside of movies. As noted, it's debateable whether he's a core member or a good friend. Right now, the article's just working off the idea that in future movies, he'll become more an obvious part of the group. -- Viewdrix 01:25, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree that he's not part of the group. Just looking at the current movie grid, he appears in 1 of the 21 movies listed. Andy Dick has more roles in those movies than he does. Whether or not he's a good friend with the others of the group, I think that by that criteria alone he just doesn't fit with the group. I don't think "working off the idea" is good enough reason to include him. Wikipedia isn't a crystal ball, IMO. --Billdorr 03:13, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

No, both Carrell and Rudd, are desperate for Frat Pack initiation. I say we DONT give them that satisfaction by leaching off the originals after they've put up with years of comedic exploits to get where they are. Now even Jon Heder from Napolean Dynomite is trying to cash in on the scene too. When is it going to end? Not everyone can be a Frat Packer!

• How are Carell, Rudd, and Heder leeching for initiation? Rudd has one upcoming movie them. Carell has none. Heder has never even been in one.

Remove Carrey

Its one thing to include carell an up and comer as a frat pack member but jim carrey? this guy had an already establised movie career over a decade before this term was even coined. he is rarely seen in the same circles as the other member. And should evryone who shares the same agent as will ferell be included in the pack? i hate to be picky but if your including carey you might as well include every other comdedian associated with sophmoric comedies. ~~Brodey

It's not that he's an actual member, just a possible friend, though his work with the Frat Pack has been sporadic, which is why there's special mention as well as the circumstances of him sharing an agent with Ferrell and Carell. There should be some mention as to why some people consider him associated in any way. -- Viewdrix 00:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed the context that you probably wrote that while he was on the list of main members, in which i agree, he is not a main member. However, he should still have his paragraph. -- Viewdrix 00:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that when I wrote Carrey in, it was as a possible "Friend", not a core member. Whoever has moved him up to the core list misinterpreted that intention. -- Viewdrix 13:25, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

He has not been "moved up to the core list"; he and Carell have just both been demoted from "core members" to "friends". The sole solid evidence for Carell being considered a member of the Frat Pack seems to have been Carell's own statements on the matter (i.e. his song on SNL), which is hardly a very good determining factor. Considering Carell's been in fewer Frat Pack movies than Carrey (and much fewer than Andy Dick), there's no justification for listing him as one of the "core members". He and Carell, and any other quasi-members/friends of note (I'm thinking a paragraph on Andy Dick would be a good idea at this point), should be written of in paragraphs following the "core list", followed in turn by a raw list of various other quasi-members/friends. The only point of the move was to keep things more organized by not arbitrarily separating the expanded paragraphs on "various other people associated with the Frat Pack", including Carrel and Carrey. -Silence 15:30, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

When I said "moved him up to the core list", I meant placing it where it is now. When considering its current placing of above the "Friends" list, it implies that when the paragraph says Carrey may be "strongly associated" with the Frat Pack, it means he's arguably a core member. He's much more arguably a Friend, so maybe his paragraph should be moved back to where it was, as a note after the Friends list. -- Viewdrix 19:39, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

If he's moved to below the Friends list, then I'd say that Carell should be moved below the Friends list as well, as it's only arguable that he's a friend as well: he's alluded to such being the case, but he's only appeared in one movie that's widely-considered a "Frat Pack" one. It was mentioneda bove that one of the main reasons Carell's been over-valued as a "core member" on this page has been based on the assumption that he'll become more "core" in future movies, but that's outright speculation, and a violation of the Wikipedia policy that explicitly states that "Wikipedia is not a crystal ball"; if he becomes a core member in the future, we should note that then, and until then make no more assumptions about his status than we do about Jim Carrey's status.

However, I think the organization makes more sense by having the paragraphs above the simple list. It might even be best to make Carell and Carrey's paragraphs a part of the list, and add brief descriptions to everyone else on the list explaining why they're considered to be associated with the "Frat Pack" and providing citations supporting these associations (lest we risk including original research). That probably makes more sense, especially organizationally, then arbitrarily drawing a line between Carrel/Carrey and the other possible friends and quasi-members. -Silence 19:50, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand the promotion of Jim Carrey here. One of the hallmarks of the Frat Pack is the onscreen teaming with the other Frat Pack stars. Carell scores major points for Anchorman in this regard, along with this Frat Pack-style cameo in Bewitched, and the numerous "friend" connections and very similar subject matter in The 40 Year-Old Virgin (man-boy does not want to grow up, like Old School, Wedding Crashers, Dodgeball, etc.). Carrey (to date) hasn't done anything except The Cable Guy which didn't even have the same kind of comic sensibility (it's a dark comedy, not a farce). You could make a case for Carrey with Bruce Almighty, but only if Carell is a core member. - Kevin Crossman

I agree completely. The belief that Carrey is a member is not widely-held enough to be notable. It's been removed. --Josh 19:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Heat Vision and Jack

I considered adding this to the Movies table but hesitated because of how it was:
A) A TV show, and
B) Never publicly released.
Any objections about adding it if I do? -- Viewdrix 00:37, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I was considering adding the youtube link featuring the lost pilot of that show to the page, i think it should simply be added to the external links with a brief description.-- Brodey 00:56, 31 March 2006

Criticism

I do not understand why the criticism section was removed. It is absolutely relevant. I could not find sources offhand but there aren't many sources for anything else either. It should stay.

• It was removed because no one logical would ever think that an unofficial group of actors has some sort of evil conservative goal. Plus why the fuck WOULD the Nation right about them? That's like pointing out that Taste of Home hasn't written about them.--Josh 00:38, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

** no one logical It is absolutely logical.

evil conservative goal Nobody ever said it was evil. In the movie Starsky and Hutch, for instance, the character "huggy", played by Snoop Dogg, is a snitch for the government. He is also portrayed as a positive character. This is a clear sign that the characters in the movie support a stronger system of law and punishment. Art, even comedy, tends to contain social commentary and this gruop of actors are no different, nor any less relevant.

I don't think portraying a pot-smoking criminal in a positive light is very conservative. Plus, that's a character from a TV show from when these actors were children.--Josh 21:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Plus why the fuck WOULD the Nation right about them? Ummm the Nation has often times written about popular social phenomenon in the arts, including movies. There complete exclusion from the arts and culture section is obviously intentional and deliberate on their part.

No. Like I said, the Frat Pack is an unofficial group. A lot of magazines haven't mentioned it. Maybe this one liberal magazine hasn't mentioned it. but it's not like Bill O'Reilly is on his show raving over them.--Josh 21:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If you want to edit the section because you feel it is unfair, well fine. But to exclude a common criticism of this group - well that is bias, plain and simple.

It's not a common criticism of the group, it's an incredibly uncommon one. If you want to link to an established media source that is making this complaint, be my guest.--Josh 21:48, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Could someone please provide any cited eveidence that their is an actual common criiticsm of their comdey for being neo-conservative in nature? If not it should be removed, wikipedia is supposed to post commonly accepted beleifs and facts, if this is something a few guys and their friends feel then it shouldn't be included. Honestly with lines like : Some feel that the overall tone of movies such as Starsky & Hutch, with its references to crime and notions of justice, are innapropriate or out of place, i feel this is just cammouflaged vandalism.--User:Brodey

OK on the first count... as for the second, I don't know what other citation is needed... Startsky and Hutch has political overtones; Always has. But I'll try and fix it up this afternoon.

Having political undertones in not the issue. The section says "the group has garnered a considerable amount of criticism" and "Some feel that." You need to cite these critics or else the section remains weaselly and original research. Cite these sources soon or the section will be deleted. Crumbsucker 10:48, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

The Controversy section contains alot of weasel words.

This article is pointless and inane. Thank you very much.

Defamer link.

I replaced the link to the Defamer article with a mirror of the New York Times aticle "They're in on the joke." The Defamer article was just two sarcastic paragraphs referring to the Times one, which is linked to. I linked to the mirror on Vince-Vaughn.com so that people following the link wouldn't have to register at nytimes.com. The Times article is the primary one, not the Defamer one, so it's the one that should be referenced.--Josh 15:53, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Maintaining a Neutral Point of View

One of the key policies of Wikipedia is Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, or NPOV. This states that all articles must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly and without bias. What you recent editors need to understand is that I too consider Steve Carell to be in the group. However, his inclusion is widely disputed, and he was not considered to be a member in either of the original articles. His inclusion is not "absolute and non-negotiable," as Wikipedia NPOV requires. Steve Carell's not the only person outside of the original six who has been considered to be a member before. Paul Rudd, Seth Rogen, Jim Carrey, David Koechner, Snoop Dogg, and Jason Bateman have all also been considered to be a member at one point or another. However, as a Wikipedia article devoted to maintaining a neutral point of view, it would be biased to name any of these people as one of the members of the Frat Pack as if it were solid fact. That is why Steve Carell, for the sake of fairness and neutrality, must be left off of Wikipedia's list. Please do not put him on the list again. The article clearly states that Steve Carell is considered by some sources to be a member, and that is as much inclusion as he can recieve without being biased towards a certain point of view.--Josh 19:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

See, what makes Steve different is his humor style and popularity. Paul Rudd, Seth Rogen, and David Koechner are still relatively unknown names. Jim and Jason hardly star with them. Snoop Dogg is hardly an actor! However, Steve is a good friend of Frat Pack members, his humor style is similar, he has appeared in Frat Pack movies and movies with Frat Pack cast or crew. He even sang a song and appeared with Will Ferrell at the Oscars. He is a Frat Pack member. Check IMDb (his biography, as well as other Frat Pack members'), check the Frat Pack tribute site, articles, and ask around. It's time for an upgrade Steve. Who's with me? - Patrick 19:29, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't need to "check the Frat Pack tribute site." I'm a regular visitor there, I'm on its message board every day, and I've called in to the podcast twice now. I agree with the belief of Steve being in the pack as well. But I must stress that stating it as fact is not NPOV. I'm more than fine with the paragraph about Steve Carell being included; honestly, I'm glad it's there. But the only way to keep this article with a neutral POV is to only list the original 6, as it's solid fact that those were the original members included.--Josh 00:43, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I would agree with the fact that the Frat Pack should stay with the 6, orginal founding members. But they didn't found anything. The fact that all of them haven't appeared in a movie together and that they did not make this up themselves proves that they didnt found it. And the point is, if everyone agreed on something, we wouldn't have war would we? I've seen many articles stating the Frat Pack to not include Jack Black. I've seen some to include even Paul Rudd. But I've seen MOST to include Steve Carell. His style suits. - Patrick 00:47, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

Paltrow addition

I added Gwyneth Paltrow's name to the list of frequent collaborators, because she was in The Royal Tenenbaums with Ben Stiller, and Luke and Owen Wilson, and she was in Shallow Hal with Jack Black.--NWilson120, May 14, 2006, 7:53 AM EST

Snoop Dogg

It is irrelevant whether Snoop Dogg is an actor or not. The whole reason the frat pack exist and are called as such, is because of thier similiarites to fraternity stereotypes, or being "fratty" if you will. Broaddus is a rapper and clearly trys to embody the "gansta rap" style (and he does so well). But for this reason alone he would never be considered as part if the group.--TAMU May 27, 2006, 1:25 PM MST

It's not like he says "I can't be friends with those guys...they're referred to as a fraternity by the media, that conflicts with my reputation." They're friends, and the group doesn't refer to themselves as the Frat Pack. They just hang out, if there was some sort of image crisis going on, I doubt Snoop Dogg would star in the kinds of films these guys were in. Your argument makes no sense. -- Viewdrix 20:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Movies.

The chart in the Movies section has been alphabetized. I'm not quite sure if this is the best idea. I personally think it works better in chronological order, but I'm hesitant to revert it. What does everyone else think?--Josh 15:07, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

This list is basically a filmography. Everywhere else on Wikipedia (I think?), discographies and filmographies are chronological. I have discovered this article about ten minutes ago, and was bothered by the fact that the filmography is alphabetical, as one cannot see from it how the pack evolved. --Netvor » user | talk | mail | work » 19:57, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi, guys. I'm the one who alphabetized the list. I thought it would help people better find certain films, but if you think it works better chronologically, by all means change it--nwilson120 9:57, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Is Jack Black really a member?

He's more closely associated with his work with writer Mike White and the band Tenacious D. His roles in the major Frat Pack films such as Wedding Crashers, Dodgeball, Starsky & Hutch, Old School, and even Meet The Parents are either minimal or non-existant. Black would fit better as an honorary member alongside someone like Andy Dick or Seth Rogan.

According to the original EW and USA Today articles, and most written since then, yes he is.--Josh 23:58, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Josh, but it doesn't change the fact that he's not a very strong member. Just because some writer from a major newspaper (who probably thinks about this stuff much less than we do :-) says so doesn't make it true. I agree, Jack Black has no place being in this 'frat pack'.

WP:NOR. -Silence 10:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You yourself are violating WP:NOR by thinking your own fucking opinion matters somehow more than Entertainment Weekly, USA Today, MSNBC, The New York Times, etc. Jack Black stays included for a very simple, obvious reason: the first two articles and most following them include the same exact six actors.--Josh 00:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Tim Robbins...

...Could he be listed in "other friends..." youngamerican (talk) 16:28, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Steve Carrell will never be a true Frat Packer

I think that Frat Pack Fans should distance themselves from Steve Carrell's obvious pandering and longing to be part of the Frat Pack. His SNL skit was incredibly pathetic and while he may be friends with the crew he is NO FRAT PACKER! If anyone claims HIMSELF to be part of the Pack on national TV, then you know they are really not involved and only wish to be.

The FRAT PACK should remain the original seven (even Jack Black is debatable). I think it's getting a little out of hand that so many second rate comedians (Carrell,Rudd,Heder) are dying to get into the crew. If anyone even deserves to be annointed into the crew it's Andy Dick, who has been with the crew since day one.

• Carell made a point that he was a famous comedian. He never said he was a Frat Packer. Andy Dick is not well known. Heder can't be counted, he's been in no movie. If you could Carell, he's been in 3 (Anchorman, Melinda and Melinda, and Bewitched). If you count Rudd, Carells been in 4 and Rudds been in Anchorman, Virgin, and Night at the Museum. You have to realize that new comedians will continue to appear and what happens when the other guys retire? If it's to be continued you need to add to the list. Many are now accepting Carell, and I've even seen Rudd and even Kroechner. Consider it people.

• Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Carell may be a future Frat Packer, but with only one or two such movies under his belt, he cannot be considered one at this time. And even if he could, he cannot be considered a "core" member, which is what the movie list and main list deal with. Additionally, although I've been a fan of Carell since his first Daily Show appearance, to say that he is "famous" and Andy Dick is "not well known" is rather absurd. Dick is at least as well-known as Carell, and I could see a strong argument for him being much, much more well-known. Heck, Andy Dick is practically a legend, even if he's not exactly "mainstream". So I don't think that's the line of argument you'll be wanting to use to justify Carell's inclusion. -Silence 02:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

• The second poster has NO argument. Andy Dick is is proly more memorable than Carell for a variety of reasons, one of which happens to be that he has more notches on his belt than Carell. And yes, Heder is co-starring in a new film with Will Farrell called Baldes of Glory. So he is trying to cash in on the Frat Pack act. And if the originals retire, then so does the name frat pack with them, just like with the Rat Pack and the Brat Pack. Because I would rather it slowly fade with them, then have wannabes like Carell take over.

new USA Today article

There was a new article about the Frat Pack in yesterday's USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2006-07-12-frat-pack-main_x.htm). It might have some useful info to integrate into the article. At least one interesting tidbit: They do discuss Carrell as a member of the Pack. Enjoy. --Gpollock 16:39, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

• Steve Carrell is not a frat pack member! USA Today is full of it.

Frat Pack

Principle members:

• Will Ferrell
• Vince Vaughn
• Luke Wilson
• Owen Wilson
• Ben Stiller
• Steve Carell
• Paul Rudd

Principle films:

• Zoolander
• Anchorman
• 40 Year Old Virgin
• Dodgeball
• Old School
• Starsky and Hutch
• Wedding Crashers

• -Steve Carell