Talk:Italy national football team

Shouldn't the title be "Italian National Football Team" and not "Italy National Football Team"? Jez 12:11, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

All the articles about national football teams are entitled Nation national football team; see, for example, France national football team opposed to French national football team, England national football team versus English national football team, Brasil national football team opposed to Brazilian national football team, and so on.--Panairjdde 13:32, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

Can someone reformat the current squad list so it is more in line with others like Spain and Brazil, where the the region of birth flags are next to each player? --GoHawks4 19:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Personally, I did it time before, and I'm going to do it again when the 23-man will be defined. --necronudist 21:33, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

I would like to point out that the introduction of the region of origin of the player bears no important information. --Panairjdde 12:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I disagree entirely, and have entered the relevant images. --GoHawks4 17:52, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

reverted. Please explain why is important to know in which region they were born. Why not the city, instead? Why not their astrological sign?--Panairjdde 21:48, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually did it by province, not by region, which I suppose is more relevant. Not to mention that there is precedent in this:

Netherlands_national_football_team Spain_national_football_team Brazil_national_football_team Australia_national_football_(soccer)_team Argentina_national_football_team Germany_national_football_team United_states_national_football_team Mexico_national_football_team Canada_men's_national_soccer_team --GoHawks4 06:54, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it was you, but someone added the region flags. Anyway, it is irrilevant the region/province a player comes from. And the fact it has been added to other articles is not a good reason (I plan to remove it from those articles the flags).--Panairjdde 13:35, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

One could argue that any factoid in any article is irrelivent. I think that when it comes to nations like Italy or Spain for example, where the regions themselves have existed longer than the state itself, people feel as much if not more allegiance to their locality than the nation. I think it's interesting to see at a glance which regions of these countries are more represented by the national side than others. I don't see how it could possibly detract from the article. --GoHawks4 16:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, nice argument. But current regions have nothing to do with with ancient nations, so that very few can recognize the flag of their region. And as regards "detracting", cluttering the article with useless informations actually detracts in readability, thus reducing the quality of the article.--Panairjdde 16:46, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"very few can recognize the flag of their region." false. we aren't Dutch. --necronudist 17:06, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how 30x20 pixel images really clutter an article at all.

Adding useless information always clutters an article.--Panairjdde 21:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing useless about it and I'm confident that if it ever came to a vote, the results would be in favor of including regional symbols as a standard practice.--GoHawks4 14:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

What is the point in putting the region of birth of a player? As I already asked (and you did not answer) why not putting the city emblem, the province emblem, the astrological sign, the photo of the player or whatever?--Panairjdde 15:58, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, I did answer the question. And when I put the images in question in the article, I used the provincial emblem. I assume that you're sarcastic about astrological sign, but if you honestly fail to see the differing degrees of relevance between regional indicators of the make-up of a national side representing the entire country and astrology, I am sincerely sorry. --GoHawks4 20:00, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I promised not to collaborate anymore but this is a debate I already had time ago:

• Is useless to debate it in this thick little page, it should be a widely accepted convention, see this.
• Don't forget that we [Italians] are strongly "regionized", but really people from other countries (yeah, Dutch for example) don't have a clue of how are their regional flags like.
• Regional/state/province/city flags are used not only in football articles, but also (e.g.) in ice hockeys.

P.S.: I'm pro-flags but Panairjdde isn't totally wrong, and there are more problems than it seems, need to discuss somewhere. Cheers. --necronudist 21:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• It looks like I'm completely behind in this discussion, but on the other national football team articles, the flags indicate where (club-wise) the player is currently playing - not where they were born. -- Chuq 23:35, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

And this article too. As the text immediately after says, "Saudi Arabia and Italy are the only countries to submit squad lists comprised entirely of players contracted to clubs in their own country."

Recent Scandals

Should anything be added to the recent history about the scandal and the possible implications in the cup? I'd say that if Buffon can't play, that's big news, same with many of the other players. 67.176.41.21 04:13, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

If there is something that has consequences on the team, yes, we should add it. But if only a single player can not be called (and this is not sure, at the moment), the news should go in the player's page, eventually.--Panairjdde 10:45, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

POV

This article seems like a polished job. It seems to gloss over any disappointing results of the Italian team and focus too much on minor successes. POV.--Sir Edgar 09:16, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

You are biased. The article reports the history of the team, with both triumphs and disappointing results. Furthermore, calling three World Cups, one European Cup, 16 partecipations to WC (of which last 12 in a row) "minor successes" is an example of "sour grapes". Stop vandalizing this page, and remove the {{POV}} tag.--Panairjdde 09:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not vandalizing the page. I am merely putting it up to the same standards you have held up other articles to. In addition, I am quoting the same articles that you have in 2002 FIFA World Cup (match reports).--Sir Edgar 23:20, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

If you add an "unreferenced" tag to a section that says that "Italy hosted the World Cup in 1990" or to another that says Italy won in 1982, it is either stupidity or vandalism, because you just click on "1990" and "1982" links and find who hosted the 1990 edition and won 1982 one.

As regards the performance of Italy in the last years, I removed it from the introduction because it is referenced in Italy national football team#Recent years section, and thus is duplicated. Since you look to disrupt this article only to show a point on SK team page, notice that there there is a "footnote" on a competition that is not dealt with in the rest of the article.

As regards the performance in 2002, note that already there is a reference to the relevant article, so I removed the duplicated info you added. Always with the will to show you the difference with SK article, notice that it was someone else to add a reference to Italy and Spain defeats in 2002, I just added more infos, in a footnote.

Also, since you seem to disrupt this article only to prove your point on how SK article should be written (but this is against Wikipedia policies, see Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point), I removed the POV tag.

--Panairjdde 08:51, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Totally agree with Panairjdde...what a mess you made, Edgar! --necronudist 13:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I am merely putting a more balanced perspective to what looks like a total polish job.--Sir Edgar 01:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

After this comment you lost any credibility.--Panairjdde 08:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the page is not necessarily the information presented as the style it is presented in; hence the copy-editing tag below. Labeling sections as "triumphs" and "dark days", among other stylistic problems, paint the editor as a fan of the program and not a responsible Wikipedia editor. It's okay to be a fan (after all, one who follows the program most closely tends to have more information on the program) but you can't let it shine through like it does in your writing. More restraint is necessary. Frackintoaster 16:34, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I was looking into making similar changes to this article, so thank you for properly cleaning up Frankintoaster. I went into the Moreno article and cleaned that up a bit. So definately, I agree with what Frackintoaster says above. --Jayohz 18:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The mention of the Aus v Italy game should state that the final penalty kick was HIGHLY DISPUTED, and considered dubious by most observers of the game. Phanatical 08:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The following sentences are POV'd:

• but the Azzurri won an incredible semi-final
• As shown by their pathetic displays in the group matches and their inability to play offensively for most of their game against South Korea.

The following sentence needs sources: As evidence of this, was the remarks of Christian Vieri who blamed Trappatoni's negative tactics as the main reason of Italy's failure in 2002.

Please proceed with the due changes or it will be reverted. Thanks. --Beamrider 09:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

All of these sentences are the result of Mr. 58.178.91.113 edits, that I reverted twice, presuming his good-faith, but that now I assume backed only by his will to introduce negative elements in this article. The only exception is the first sentence, which refers to Netherlands-Italy Euro 2000 semifinal: I think winning 10 against 11 with two penalties against should be considered "incredible", however I am open to suggestions on how this adjective could be sobstituted.--Panairjdde 09:25, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Copyedit

I'll step away from the POV edit wars for the time being and remark that this page needs some serious copyediting work. I'm going to tag it as such and start working on cleaning up some of the English. Frackintoaster 16:24, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Panairjdde - Re: Reverts

• The info you've added can all be found in the individual competions. This is an article on the Italian national team; you're adding superfluous information on the championships in question. If a user wants to know about the Netherlands failing to convert six penalties in a match, they're going to check the page of the match/tournament in question, not this one.
• The claim that the World Cup is the most prestigious competition in the world can either be established on the World Cup page or assumed. It does not need to be re-asserted here.
• Your section titles are POV (what constitutes a slump?) and a violation of accepted section title style.
• Claims such as "the most successful" and "the incredible semi-final" are superfluous and debatable.
• The English in your revisions is poor and contains many grammatical errors. You've reverted my attempts to fix them.

Look, you've contributed a lot of useful information, but I am apparently not the first person (I count two more on this page alone) to contest your inability to maintain NPOV on this topic. You've erased attempts to tag the article for a (I feel, necessary) POV-check as "vandalism". If you revert again I'm going to tag for a POV-check myself and ask for moderation from the administrators. It wouldn't be a problem for me if you were adding on to the things I feel I've fixed, but you seem unable to accept the editing of your work here. Frackintoaster 02:01, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

1. You keep on connecting the link http://www.figc.it/english/storia/storia_completa.htm#1913 with the wrong text. I'm reverting.
2. No one decided we are obliged to divide the history of a team into sections bearing the years. "Origins and first two World Cups (1910-1938)" is perfect an more clear than "Pre-World War II".
3. The performance of all the teams in World Cup are reported in the articles about each single edition of the WC. Are you going to remove any reference to WC that can be found elsewhere? I do not think so. Notice also that you added "(Italy)" to WC 1934. It is a duplicated info, since it "can either be established on the World Cup [1934] page or assumed [by the fact that the final is in Rome]. It does not need to be re-asserted here", to use your words.
4. Some of your reverts are not explained, for example the content of your "Post-World War II" section
5. "Incredible semi-final" is not POV; it is just a match in which one side missed five penalties on six. And the info is important, since it was the Italian goalkeeper who was on the other side of those six penalties. If the "most successful" that is "superfluous and debatable" is the reference to Inft performance, you deserve no answer.
6. You may (note: "may") be right only on my English. But this does not allow you to blank my edits.
7. You are free to criticize my edits, but please, choose better allies: SirEdgar is here to "disrupt an article to prove his point", which is a clear violation of WP policies.
8. As regards moderation, do what you think is better.--Panairjdde 11:12, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

This article is POV and it's primarily Panairjdde's fault. People have pointed this out to him, but he continues to engage in edit wars without reason or compromise.--Sir Edgar 04:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Hahah, funny that you mention POV. I've seen how you do the same thing with the Korean football page Sir Edgar. Hypocrisy is un-Wiki maybe? 192.45.72.26 01:20, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

You keep on pointing on my POVs, but you (and others like you) failed to explain why reporting the performance of a team in its article is POV. Instead of keeping on reverting my edits, you (and others like you) could simply find a compromise that does not remove information.--Panairjdde 08:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Edgar, I don't understand why are you making all this mess for a simple thing: you have vandalized this page asking sources for the most stupid things (d'you remember azzurri?) and so on. so, please, stop it. =_=' this isn't a nursery (or maybe...it is) --necronudist 12:04, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Only the positive information seems to be included in this article. It lacks overall perspective. Italy has not won a World Cup in nearly 30 years. The previous two were in the 1930s, one when the Italians hosted. The teams is stricken by never-ending controversy and conspiracy theories. It's quite sad actually, but this is not really mentioned.--Sir Edgar 00:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I can't quite explain your attitude, however, what I will say is that both your edits and those of Panairjdde are (for the main part) POV and need to be toned down. The lead is misleading- in fact Italy's record since 1982 (3rd place 1990, 2nd place 1994, last 8 in 1998 and very narrowly beaten by the eventual winners on home turf, last 16 in 2002) makes them one of the most successful World Cup teams of recent times. They may not have 'performed so well lately', but no team can win the trophy every time. I do concede that their European Championship record is a shocka by contrast. If you can't see that edits like 'Italian fans cried foul yet again' and 'what Italian fans describe as controversy' (an opinion that happens to be shared by many, for example the BBC [1] [2] [3], world soccer news [4], The Guardian [5] etc etc etc). I would also like to know what 'unsportsmanship' is, and why he had a separate ban for that as well as the spitting incident, as your edit implies. The conspiracy theories should be mentioned, outlined and debunked using evidence in an encyclopaedic way (although I could almost believe they had a point in Korea!). I have reverted your edits once again. Please try and avoid POV, it really is completely unecessary. If you persist, then we ought to get an outside opinion. Badgerpatrol 01:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Re-iteration of Badgerpatrol's comments, he's on the money. It seems as if some of Edgar's edits were disruption to prove a point, which isn't good... but invalid techniques do not imply an invalid point. Reporting performance is okay, but you're not doing that. Reporting performance is telling people that they lost so many matches or won so many matches and letting the reader make their own conclusions about their performance during the era. You can say that "they won more championships in this time period than any other team" and that's much more preferable to saying "they were the best team in the world at this time". You can defend the former with facts but you cannot VERIFY and DEFEND the latter because it is a value judgment. It's the habit of attaching value to facts that is the main POV problem facing the article. This is an encyclopedia, not an editorial or fan page. Everything that cannot be supported through citation or direct defendable fact must go. Frackintoaster 17:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Right. Now, could you please tell us what is not supported through citation?--Panairjdde 20:07, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Every time I visit this article, even the slightest negative information is deleted. What happened to the sentences about all the controversies Italy has been involved in? And what about its players who spit on other team's players? Italy hasn't won a World Cup in 30 years and yet this article makes it seem like they are the best team in the world.--Sir Edgar 01:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That is not my reading of the article. Can you point to specific instances of POV? It does rather seem to include adequate coverage of Italy's defeats and setbacks. I have added a note regarding the 2002 conspiracy theory; Totti#s sending off for spitting was already included, and in any case, a single player being sent off for bad conduct is hardly noteworthy in and of itself in international football these days. I do not see that 'the slightest negative information is deleted' - in fact, I see quite a few negatives in there right now. The article is hardly rose-tinted. If you think you can improve it without injecting your own POV (which seems to be somewhat lukewarm towards the Italian team) then of course do so, or point out any improvements here. Badgerpatrol 02:26, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

re your latest edits [6]: You seem to be disrupting this article to make some kind of Point, although why you are doing so truly escapes me. Please don't. Your attitude seems to my reading to be bordering on racism; if you continue, the next step will be page protection and a RfC. It would be a much better use of our time and energy if we instead try to co-operate to improve the article. Badgerpatrol 02:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Are any of my edits incorrect or falsified?--Sir Edgar 02:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Please read this page. If you think that edits like "These reports were quickly dismissed by FIFA and the majority of the world's media, but Italian fans continued to whine and cry about it even though Italy has never won a World Cup match on penalties." conform to NPOV then I am surprised. (In addition, I don't actually understand that sentence grammatically or structurally- why is it relevent that Italy have never won a shoot-out?). Badgerpatrol 02:56, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I acknowledge "whine and cry" as POV. It's true though that Italy has never won a WC match on penalties. It's relevant because if many Italian fans seem to believe that if Totti was not thrown out of the match, then Ahn would not have scored the golden goal and it would be 1-1. This would lead to a shootout.--Sir Edgar 05:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Italy not advancing at shootout (but notice that Italy already advanced during extra time) is your speculation, based on past events. SK never won a WC, so are you going to claim that it will never?--Panairjdde 08:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Following Edgar, Netherlands is one of the worst team ever (1 ec), like england (1 wc, hosted) or spain (0 wc, 0 ec) and greece is one of the best european team actually (won the last ec). Maybe truth is that Brazil, Argentina, England, Netherlands, Brazil, Argentina, Italy, Spain, France, Germany are all very good teams and they can win the World Cup, even if some of them aren't in a good period (like France and Germany). You can't say if a team is a good team counting its trophies. There's something called tradition, teams with great football tradition can always win something. If you're into football, you know it. Nobody doubt about the strenght of teams like France or Germany, even if they're in a bad period. --necronudist 12:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Edgar, I'm glad you acknowledge your bias. Please therefore try and avoid inserting POV in the future. As for the penalty situtation- I do not see what you are talking about at all. You seem to be saying that because it has never happened in the past it will never, ever happen- which is a bit silly. By a similar rationale, it is impossible for Spain or Portugal to win the current tournament, since they have never done so in the past. To reply to Necronudist- it is not for us to make value judgements as to who are the 'best' or 'strongest' teams; we should instead use terms like 'successful'- i.e. a descriptor that can actually be backed up by evidence. This is an encyclopaedia, after all. Badgerpatrol 14:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I only acknowledge "whine and cry" as POV. I did not say that I have a bias. Panairjdde seems to continue to polish this article and censor very relevant negative facts in this article while slamming other teams. My hope is that we can have equal application of positive and negative facts in each team's article and avoid accusations and opinon.--Sir Edgar 00:24, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

What did I censor?--Panairjdde 00:51, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Look at the tile of this section in Talk. It's about your reverts.--Sir Edgar 02:22, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The title may be restricted to his reverts. This discussion is not. No-one is entitled to insert their own POV into this or any other article, as you admit to doing above. Best thing here is for everyone to grow up and concentrate on producing a good balanced and fair article. Badgerpatrol 02:26, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Edgar, don't play with me. You said I "censor[ed] very relevant negative facts in this article". I ask you, what did I censor?--Panairjdde 08:50, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

This whole argument concerning POV is rather comical. POV is standard whenever anything is stated. It is impossible not to have a POV. The medium is the message, as they say. People who complain about POV have a POV of their own; people simply complain about other people's POVs because the latter's POVs do not correspond with the former's POVs. This article is no more biased than the criticisms levied against it by its detractors. It seems, however, that those who want to add negative things about Italy (diving, spitting, etc) simply want to do so as an attempt to tarnish the image of the Italian team rather than to add anything substantial to the article.

It is quite surprising to find that there are so many people refusing to admit that Italy is one of the best and most successful teams in the world. And this is not POV at all, it's a plain fact. This last victory in Germany 2006 World Cup makes Italy the second best team after Brazil, having won its fourth World Cup final out of six played so far. 212.162.108.198 12:52, 11 July 2006 (UTC) Marco from Roma, Italy

Traditional jersey color

Why is blue the traditional jersey color? Thanks. Jim 18:51, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

because it was the colour of the Royal House. It is used for all the Italian sporting teams/athletes, but in motor sports.--Panairjdde 21:06, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

Better keep an eye on this page, there are some not very happy Aussies out there! -- Chuq 17:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It's coming thick and fast from many different IPs. I hope people don't think I'm jumping the gun by semi-protecting. If so, feel free to un-protect (or get another admin to). I'm off to sleep (a depressing one) :( -- Chuq 17:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I honestly don't think it's vandalism if some posters point out that Italy has a long history and a reputation in international football for diving. I mean, they've maintained this reputation for decades, so it would be at least pertinent to mention that they are often looked at unfavourably by other fans and squads.

JaysCyYoung 17:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Jays: SECONDED! This page is long overdue for a criticism section.

Aussie Jim 17:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Just check out this discussion and I think you will find you are right. The opinion of most outsiders would suggest they have gained a terrible reputation worldwide.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/mb606/F4441083?thread=3196044

Marto85 17:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikinews has related news:

• Italy win with last kick against Australia; into quarter-finals

Could someone add this wikinews link? As far as the "diving" thing goes, Italy does have a reputation. But so does Germany and Netherlands. Are we going to make ammendments to those pages too? TBH you can say the same thing about England these days, too. To mention specific incidents is not POV. 172.188.228.169 18:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Deciding to add a section about Italy's reputation for diving just after a defeat is not the smartest thing to do. Return when your head is cold.--Panairjdde 19:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

If this article gets a criticisms section (which is a preposterous idea) then almost every other major team in the world is going to have to have one too- they all dive, they all cheat to gain advantage, that's the modern game., sadly. As for today- not a penalty, but what was Neill thinking? Bonkers. Badgerpatrol 23:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Diving

Panairjdde, I think you are missing the point. Diving is a great strength of the italian team. It illustrates their sophistication and guile. The "aussies" are clearly naive fools with their notions of sportmanship and fair play. Serves them right to lose to the nation that brought us machiavelli. Italians should be proud of their world cup team, and I think it is a serious oversight of this article that it omits what is, after all, a key element of the game.

I have no idea why this page attracts this kind of trolling. It is totally unecessary and frankly to my mind borders on outright racism. Please stop it. Badgerpatrol 22:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, Italian dives, Australians play football like rugby, Communists eat children. What else? Maradona cheated, English won a controversial World Cup, Argies corrupted Quiroga... but none of us cry for the robbery every time. Blame the referee for having seen a penalty like that, not Italians. Don't be so stupid, men. --necronudist 16:53, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

How was his criticism of Italy bordering on racism? The Italian Football Federation themselves are racist, having refused to allow non-Serie A players on the national team (something NO other team in the world does) and have criticised the French for using "import" (aka BLACK) footballers on their team. I also don't see a non-white on the Azzuri. Does anyone sense a semblance of hypocrtisy here? JaysCyYoung 17:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

This has to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever seen on Wiki. There is no ban on non-Serie A players, and it only makes sense that there would be mostly or all Serie A players as it is one of the top, if not the top, national league in the World. There are no black players on the team, because Italy is a European country and immigration is a new phenomenon. This is not Canada or the USA. You think they should put some non-white/european player on the team for the sake of being politically correct? Why don't you go on the Ghana page and ask them why they have no non-black players. Man, dude, you need to get a brain. 192.45.72.26 19:50, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, Saudi Arabia had all domestic league players and Italy nearly let Cassano on the squad (plays for Real Madrid) but didn't because of his bad recent form. What non serie A players are worthy of being on the team other than Cassano? I wouldn't complain about their selection, they've achieved the semis now, no non serie a players would have made any huge difference at this point. They may criticise the French because they have a different definition of national team. They may require that the player be of French heritage, (I'm not really sure who they would be talking about) or something. Mauro Camoranesi isn't exactly white, or even Italian, he's Argentinian, though probably of Italian origin like several Argentinians are. I don't know who would qualify as both black and of Italian heritage at the same time, but I'm willing to hear any suggestions. KingPenguin 21:20, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Mr. JaysCyYoung, are you serious? Would you please point me to any reference to the non-Serie A player ban? Or, if you are able, the criticism against French black players? If not, you should be ashamed of yourself.

As regards non-Serie A or black players, simply none of them was found deserving to be part of the current roster. But this is not the result of a ban. Christian Panucci was part of the national footbal team when playing for Real Madrid, Matteo Ferrari was titular of the 2004 Olimpic team and member of the 2004 European championship roster.

Be more considerate when dealing with this sensible matter, or pleas go to some forum, and do not write here.--Panairjdde 22:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I think he might mean this sensitive matter btw... ;-). I'm not aware that there's any ban on non-Serie A players; I seem to recall Vieri was (I think?) in or around the squad whilst at Atletico, and possibly Bobby Dimatteo and Zola, Ravenelli et al. whilst in England (correct me if I'm wrong, and there may be others). If Serie B or foreign-based players are excluded it must I think be a recent ruling, and I can't think why they'd do that to be honest- but if it can be verified, then there's no reason to exclude that from the article. The French national team includes or has included numerous players who weren't born in France- as has the Italian squad over the years, including at least 1 or 2 in the current squad. I'm not qualified to state whether there are currently any black Italian players who should be in the squad, although I suppose it's fair to say there is an issue of racism in Italy to an extent- just as there is in many other parts of the world. Bottom line- in my experience, the Italian team does not have any worse a reputation for diving or gamesmanship than numerous other nations- let's not forget that we saw a virtual war break out on the pitch between Germany and Argentina the other day (and the situation between Portugal and Holland was not much better, notwithstanding the ref's attempts to make a bad situation much worse through his incompetence). I can certainly recall instances of diving, cheating and the occasional awful foul occurring in every football tournament in recent memory- from a variety of teams, not just Italy. Suggesting that some Italian players sometimes cheat is perfectly true- almost EVERY team includes players that cheat from time to time, it is a sad fact of the modern game. Suggesting however that there is something about the Italian national character ('the country that brought us Machiavelli' etc etc) that pre-disposes them towards cheating is, in my opinion, racist. Let's try and tone down the offensive language and POV statements and get on with adding to the article. Badgerpatrol 23:11, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure Christian Vieri will soon return to the Italian national team once he is fully fit and he is currently playing at AS Monaco, JaysCyYoung please advise on any black Italian's who should be in the national team inplace of any existing players?? The majority of African national side's have only black players, it doesn't make them racist, and it sure doesn't make a European side having white players racist either.. ridiculous claim, which borders on trolling.

And as far as diving, it happens in every single football playing country on earth, why single Italy out?... its also very much down to POV as to whether certain incidents are "dives" anyway. - Deathrocker 23:15, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I've never understood. and never will understand, why some people, reporters, papers single out Italy for diving and play acting. These things are committed by every country I have seen play, and Italy is no more guilty then these other teams. Is this simply jealousy of Italy's success?

Right, just look at the WC final and the penalty against Italy and you'll see that everybody dives. It's modern football, unfortunately. --necronudist 12:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the absence of black players in our national team, it's a statement that simply ignores a) demographics of Italy - one of the most homogeneous countries in Europe, and b) history, exemplified in the person of Fabio Liverani, adopted into an Italian family in infancy and first black player in our team. He came in with nothing but his good form to recommend him, played his games and, when his form declined, left, just like everyone.--Tridentinus 18:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Coff Coff

-Sorry...who said Italy isn't a good team? Uh? --necronudist 20:53, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

-Does this mean italy must add a 4th star to the jersey/crest?

Article Title

Obviously, it's a little late, but for shouldn't the title of this article be "Italian national footbal team?" Yanksox 22:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Check the first post on this page. Have you got something more to say, or your position is summarized by that discussion?--Panairjdde 22:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

*Thunks head agaisnt a wall* Wow, I feel...like something...Thanks for kindly pointing it out. Yanksox 22:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Panairjdde, your first post on this page doesn't answer the question. You just said that this is the current situation, which doesn't mean it's right. Shouldn't the titles of ALL countries' football teams use the adjective of the country instead of the name? 218.103.142.199 05:07, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I never said it would answer. I just asked if there was something more, or if his position was somehow similar on one of those.--Panairjdde 10:41, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

well ithink itlat has played up to standers specilay canvaro has defended well. well done italia i wish my home country pakistan would have football team and win like the italian chapions.

Vandalism (as of 11 July)

Good morning,

Can an admin put a protection tag on this one? I've removed one instance of vandalism (which someone tried to overrule - resulting in an edit conflict) earlier and have also had to take down rumours about the Zidane incident. All of this occurred in the 2006 World Cup section.

Thanks. -----Fbelange

I'd be happy about this, too. One cannot help noticing that Italy are often regarded as playing foul and diving whenever they feel need to do so. Still, there appears to be quite a lot of bias there since even the television people commenting the games seem unable to comment fairly what they actually see but talk about "oh, the diver again" and stuff, if the person in question didn't dive actively in the actual game. So, in a nutshell: yes, there is controversy, but still, keep in mind: they have won the World Cup four times, even if the Azzuri often are not liked. But this should be a reference page, and no discussion page wether or not they are considered playing good soccer. Please, stay with the facts, not personal opinions, and fact is: four stars...82.207.214.45 14:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Panairjdde

The user Panairjdde is consistently deleting other's contributions. He has a history of this all over Wiki. You can see so many times where he just firmly wants to keep his POV and just straight-out deletes anyone else's contribution. This user should be disciplined in my opinion. What is this behavior?? 192.45.72.26 01:16, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Could you please add references? So that I can understand what contributions I am deleting.--Panairjdde 09:48, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I added the line describing the disallowed goal in the final match. This goes along with the sentences about disallowed goals in the 2002 WC. This was an important point in the game and a possible match decider. You don't have many goals in a game that are disallowed, and it was arguably a dubious call. 192.45.72.26 19:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It was a clear offside, just like the disallowed goal to US in Italy vs. US match. Both of them should stay out of the article, therefore, since are simple game calls. --Panairjdde 20:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

It's true. Stop trying to keep this page a fansite. This is supposed to be unbiased encyclopaedia. Ban this person please. Damn fanboys.

I think that Panairjdde, of course a genuine supporter of Italy, is just trying to keep this page clean and free from malicious interpretations. I just deleted a "contribution", pretending that the Italian victory was marred by Materazzi's racist comments about Zidane mother or sister, which is not at all proved at the moment. Whatever Materazzi said, Zidane headbutt against him cannot be justified in any way, and it was the worst way Zizou could end his great career. Speculations about Italian racism are completely meaningless, and only show the bad conscience of many French towards algerian immigrates. 212.162.105.251 13:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC) Marco from Roma, Italy

Well, Marco, you've insulted like others...and mister 192.45.72.26 below is only trying to Gaming the System. Never read wikitruth.info? "Keep his POV", he's gaming on the controversies regardind the absurd NPOV-rule, "he has a history of this" is another example... Just ignore him. --necronudist 16:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

and who the heck are you to go around saying who should be ignored? Panairjdde does have a history of blanking out other's contributions left and right. Are you his mother or something? I've had my changes consistently deleted and this happens to many others too. Panairjdde controls this page to his liking. 192.45.72.26 19:22, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I admit I've insulted and I'm sorry about that. My violent reaction was by the way directed to mr. 58.178.15.253, who, I discovered later, has really a history in breaking Wikipedia editing rules. I think it is an understandable reaction against stupidity and anti-italian discrimination. We always care about all kind of racism, and that's correct, but we often forget anti-italian racism, which, we are discovering in these days, is quite common among the fanatics all over the world. 212.162.96.81 17:04, 12 July 2006 (UTC) Marco

Well unfortunately the World Cup has shown us not just anti-Italian racism, but a lot of racism out of control everywhere. Alas, what can you do... 192.45.72.26 19:35, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I think this should be said loud and clear. There are plenty of controversies surrounding the national team. JUST IN THIS ONE WORLD CUP, is the De Rossi elbow, Grosso diving, Materazzi's shameful actions. Why are the same editors who edit other national team's site based on this, do not insert the same controversies that dog this national team? Pathetic, stop your double standards. Either insert your controversies here or do not do that to other national team pages.

(above isn't me) Well, I'm Italian and I'm not feeling somehow discriminated. Panairjdde is simply keeping the article stupidity-free... And, however, Mr. 192.45.72.26 I'm just writing what I think. Sorry if this hurts you, I'll search for a lager where to spend my useless life. Regarding the controversies: there aren't controversies, you are talking from weeks about this or that episode, but no-one makes a war about other episodes like the Argentina-Germany riot and others. And, tell me something: where was Blatter when Italy received WC? He was talking to his friend Zidane, isn't this controverse? You aren't children, you are men. Or not? So, please, stop you all --necronudist 23:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

let just say, as an italian myself. i feel utmost ashamed that necronudist and panairwhatever are italians. they are not typical. these two are idiots.. maybe together?

how can i get a jersey?

i am an American named mark grosso. my grandpa came over here at the age of 13 by himself. we do not have much info on his past from italy except that he has/had a sister. his name was peter (pietro?) grosso. anyway, i am not a soccer fan, but i sure as heck am proud of my italian heritage and watched with great joy and interest that a member of azzurri that shares my last name would score the decisive goals in their last two games. i was bragging all week at work that fabio and i are related. the name grosso is very uncommon everywhere i have lived. (this possibility is quite remote but anything is possible) my question is this. i would like nothing more than to buy a azzurri grosso jersey and wear it with pride the rest of my life. can anyone tell me how i would get ahold of one of them. i haven't seen that on the site yet. any help would be appreciated. and last but not least GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ITALY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! congratuations AZZURRI!--Yardman171 00:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Go to your nearest Sports store?

You can try offical Puma's website, or just go to www.soccer.com which is Eurosport's store site.

Please stop the crazy Kangaroo!!!

Beware!!! The vandal is back!!! 58.178.91.113 (or whatever) keeps adding his nonsense comments to this page, although it's clear that nobody agrees with him. He's already been banned yesterday under another IP, but he's not satisfied, he goes on with his own personal war against Italy team and the editors of this page. I understand that it's been a hard time, loosing the match with Italy by a penalty in 94th minute, but that's life... 212.162.97.127 09:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC) Marco from Roma, Italy

Sorry Marco, it's only because your editors keep vandalising other National Association pages. I have no interest in vandalising this page, I simply want to maintain the same conditions your Italian editors wish to produce on other Association pages. When this is stopped, and both Association pages kept under the same conditions, I will have no need to edit in order to keep both pages neutral and under the same guidelines.

This is hypocrisy on your side. You clearly vandalized this article, and now you claim to act to counter vandalism (with other vandalism)? At least you should not hide yourself behind an anonymous account.--Panairjdde 10:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

When somebody can't admit a defeat in Roma we say: e nun ce vonno sta'... (and they can't bear with it) 212.162.97.127 10:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC) Marco

When in Rome....

When in Rome what? And please could you somehow sign your comments or am I asking too much? 212.162.97.127 13:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC) Marco

Jersey

In the first two games of their history (1910 vs France and Hungary), Italy played with the white jersey. On 6th January 1911, Italy played in Milan vs Hungary and for the first time Italian players wore the blue jersey.

References? --151.47.76.121 00:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC) (Panarjedde)

If you can understand Italian

http://www.figc.it/speciale_world_cup_2002/html/storia.htm

This is the official site of FIGC (Federazione Italiana Gioco Calcio). And these are other sites (in Italian where you can read the history of the blue jersey).

http://www.anaai.it/maglia.asp

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazionale_di_calcio_italiana

Confirm all. --Jollyroger (italian)

me too, it is widely known in Italy. P.S.: Panarjedde?? Your nick was Panairjdde...am I wrong?? --necronudist 18:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I can add that white jersey were used because they were cheaper, and the young federation had to cut down costs --Jollyroger 12:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Luigi Riva

This page has it has 35 (42), but Luigi Riva has it has 42 (35) - which one is correct? Chaldean 02:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

35 scores in 42 matches. This record for goal/matches is still unbeaten in Italy. --Jollyroger 12:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually it was never a record. Silvio Piola recorded his 30 goals in 34 matches before Riva's 35 in 42.--Semioli 15:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)