Talk:Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

Constitutional status

Nikola, when you say "had no special status" it's ambiguous and potentially misleading because this part was actually the Social Republic of Serbia, the others were autonomous under Serbia. I remember we used to call it "uža Srbija" in school, meaning "narrower Serbia" but that doesn't sound too good in English. --Shallot 10:23, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Well no, it was not actually SRS, but only a part of it that was not an autonomous province. I don't see that 'had no special statrus' is ambiguous, if you have some better wording apply it. But the status must be explained, if not, whatever you say will mislead anyone not previously informed that this part was also an autonomous province. Nikola 11:29, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. Can we simply say SR Serbia "had these two additional provinces" rather than "was further divided into"? --Shallot 14:18, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

In addition to what? They were as much part of Serbia as the central part. BTW, we surely can't go without mentioning it as some people will think that Serbia consists of only Kosovo and Vojvodina. Perhaps we could say "Part of Serbia (oftenly called "Serbia proper" that was neither in Vojvodina nor in Kosovo was not an autonomous province." and leave everyone puzzled. Or perhaps the topic is so complicated that it deserves an article on its own. Nikola 05:40, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

It seems there isn't a copy of the 1963/1974 Yugoslav constitutions available online and I can't be arsed to go to a library, so I'll defer the judgement on how autonomous they were to you. :) --Shallot 12:37, 4 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have some good news! I scanned and OCRed the whole SFRY constitution from 1974; it took me 14 days to complete, but now all of 406 articles are available on-line at Slovene Wikipedia as Ustava SFRJ (1974). Have fun! --Romanm 20:02, 20 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Great!!!! :DD So, regarding this, "Socialisti?na federativna republika Jugoslavija je zvezna dr?ava kot dr?avna skupnost prostovoljno zdru?enih narodov in njihovih socialisti?nih republik ter socialisti?nih avtonomnih pokrajin Kosova in Vojvodine v sestavi Socialisti?ne republike Srbije." Nikola 05:03, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

So, yeah, if I guess-read Slovenian correctly, the others were autonomous under Serbia, like I said before. I think we should simply omit the mention of the naming of the central part in this page because it's already dealt with on its page. --Shallot 10:57, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Using redirects

Shallot, instead of linking directly to the Serbia and Montenegro page or allowing the FRY page to redirect, maybe we could put a short explanation of the connection between FRY and Serbia and Montenegro on the FRY page and continue linking to that from here. Tim Ivorson 19:35, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That occured to me as well, though I wasn't sure if people would think that such a short page would be better replaced with a redirect... I guess we could rid the current S&M page of a fair bit of historic baggage if we moved it to the FRY page. Nikola Smolenski, are you watching this, what do you think? :) --Shallot 20:44, 16 Feb 2004 (UTC)

National motto

Wasn't bratstvo i jedinstvo unofficial really? Certainly a popular phrase, but I doubt it was codified. --Shallot 20:16, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I believe it was unofficial, too. This is what I also wrote in the first version of the table, but someone seems to leave "unofficial" out, obviously. --Romanm 20:31, 1 Apr 2004 (UTC)

AFAIK, "bratstvo jedinstvo" was just one of the slogans used to express the ideology of the socialist Yugoslavia, and not a national motto in any sense. I think this should be removed, or ideally dealt with somewhere else. Zocky 20:54, 24 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

My first version of the table listed "Bratstvo in enotnost" as unofficial motto; ie. of course it was not official (although sintagme "bratstvo in enotnost" appears several times in the Yugoslav constitution), but if there was some motto-candidate, this would be the one. I suggest to mark it "unofficial" again and leave it as it is. --Romanm 21:23, 24 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

No, I think that it's pointless to invent or approximate national mottos when there are none. It's like pronouncing red or blue to be the unofficial national colour - if there is no official colour, the unofficial colour could be any colour. Zocky 22:05, 24 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

UK, for example doesn't have official flag or hymn, yet unofficial ones are listed in the table. By the way, I am neutral about this. Nikola 07:08, 25 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

That might be true, for a country like UK, which also has no written constitution and whose flag and motto are several centuries old. I don't think it's a comparable situation. Zocky 23:09, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this motto was only half a century old. But as I said, I don't care, remove it if you wish, mark it as unofficial if you don't. Nikola 23:27, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Avala's edit

Avala, Slovene and Macedonian were also official languages of the SFRY. You also removed the map of the country showing the political entities and rephrased the passage on Serbia so that it's not clear that the autonomous provinces had any special status in the federation. For this reasons I reverted the page. Please discuss these issues here before you act. --Romanm 13:58, 4 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

They were official on the paper. But ok leave them. Draw the new picture for ne table. Old one is "buggy". Also I just copied the info for Serbia. I will revert and leave it to you to draw the new picture(just change numbers (old one was bad-serbia,croatia,bih,slovenia,macedonia and montenegro by size i think that is the order) Best wishes Avala 16:52, 4 May 2004 (UTC) If you want you can change info for Serbia so that everything can be clear.[reply]

Avala, Slovenian and Macedonian were official on paper (ie. constitution) and in real life. As for your other changes:

the original list of republics was in alphabetic order, but you changed that to sort them by area. IMHO sorting them alphabeticaly is the way to go, since this is the way they were sorted in the constitution and is also the way to sort other entities; see U.S. states, for example.
you omitted the part about "uža Srbija" and said that it was called "Central Serbia". I think that the usual English name for "uža Srbija" is "Serbia proper" or "Narrower Serbia". This was discussed on Talk:Serbia some weeks ago.
the picture was just fine, I don't see why you removed it from the page? If the boundaries between autonomous provinces and other part of Serbia bother you, we can change them to dashed line so that it'll be more obvious that they belonged together.
the new table looks bad, especially on small screens. In generaly I prefered the old layout of this page.

I'd like to ask you and especialy the other users to comment this before I revert, so that I won't start an edit war. --Romanm 08:00, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

First about old "table". I think that majority of today users have 17" screens on which that old text was going over the picture. This one is much better for 17"screen with 1024x768 which is about 80-90% of users. You can buy 17" to change your 15" or 14" for only 100-150euros.:) I don`t really care for the line but OK if you want to do it all right. I already told you that you can format the table if you want(order it alphabetically or whatever).--Avala 13:51, 5 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we should go for a list, alphabetically sorted or not. The problem with the list was that the image interfered with it on some browsers, leaving the list which was only two characters wide or so. I can fix it. BTW, Regardless of the solution, I think that we should link as Serbia so that it would be visible what if its official name. Nikola 01:45, 6 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Nikola, I agree with you. Please include the list and the image, then. The part of linking as Serbia I don't understand, could you explain a bit more, please? --Romanm 21:44, 6 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I re-added Image:SFRYugoslaviaNumbered.png to this page. It looks good on my monitor in Mozilla with new Wikipedia skin, but if there are some problems on other user's equipment, please let me know. In this case I'd also like to ask Nikola to fix it (I cannot reproduce the problem). --Romanm 12:34, 30 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

What happened :? I wrote Socialist Republic of Serbia. An alternative might be Socialist Republic of Serbia. Nikola 05:40, 7 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I don`t get it! You are linking to Serbia with Socialist republic of Serbia!

Please explain! Avala 15:07, 7 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Kako drukcije da objasnis ljudima da se republika zvala "Socijalisticka republika Srbija"? Mada ima smisla to sto kazes, verovatno je ovaj drugi predlog bolji. Nikola 21:58, 7 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Znam ali ako kliknu na taj link otici ce na danasnju Srbiju i onda ce gotovo sigurno da misle kako je Srbija i dalje Socijalisticka republika.

Inace ovima ovde pogotovo Slovencima je vrlo tesko objasniti i najobicnije stvari kao npr. da neke stvari ne mogu da imaju copyright kao sto je grb ako on izgleda isto kao original...Al' sta da se radi Avala 08:11, 11 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

A pa to se slazem onda neka bude ovo drugo. Za kopirajt, moram da ti kazem da su u pravu, grb naravno nema kopirajt ali slika grba ima kopirajt onoga ko ju je naslikao. To je vrlo glupo ali je tako. Tako je i po nasem zakonu o autorskim pravima.

P.S. Neki ovde pogotovo Slovenci znaju srpski ;) Nikola 11:38, 20 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. But although we understand Serbian, it'll be more useful if we stick to English on the English Wikipedia talk pages, so that others understand us too. We can always talk slovensko or hrvatski or српски on our user pages, if we'd like to have some ex-Yu privacy. :-) --Romanm 19:55, 20 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I know, but as Avala's English isn't the best one, I thought it would be the best to resolve this in Serbian. Nikola 05:03, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

I know that they speak and I don`t really care because I already told them everything on Serbian and English and whatever.

About CoA - on Serbian-mi ne znamo da li je neko nacrtao taj grb ako nije dodao neki detalj koji ga cini razlicitim od originala. Onaj Grb je sa zvanicnih stranica i siguran sam da makedonski predsednicki websajt nece tuziti Wikipediu zbog objavljivanja istog. Takodje nisam siguran da li takav zakon obuhvata grb. A i lepo je rekao Tito da se sudije "ne drze zakona ko pijan plota". A kad on kaze onda nema druge........ ;-) Avala 14:37, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

E, ali to je drugo ako je s drzavnih stranica, onda mozes reci da prema zakonu te drzave (a vecina ih ima tako), sve sto je drzava objavila u javnom vlasnistvu. Jedino ako skines sliku s privatne ili komercijalne web stranice onda oni imaju copyright nad tim konkretnim djelom. --Shallot 15:24, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Ne vazi ni to za svaku drzavu. Nikola

pa uostalom vidim da ovde sve sto skinu sa state department ili bilo kog drugog gov sajta satvljaju pod fair use. Avala 18:01, 21 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Pa to je zato sto po americkom zakonu drzavni organi ne mogu da kopirajtuju nikakav materijal koji proizvedu. A po nasem zakonu drzavni organi ne mogu da kopirajtju nikakav ZVANICAN materijal koji proizvedu. Da li je zvanican sajt zvanican materijal treba pitati nekog advokata... Nikola 08:17, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Ne treba.... jer na novom sajtu vlade Srbije npr. pise velikim slovima Dobro dosli na zvanicnu prezentaciju Vlade Republike Srbije. S druge strane sumnjam da ista o tome ima u nasem zakoniku. Jedino da neko posalje mail webmasteru..... --Avala 14:17, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Da li mogu da prekopiram informacije o okruzima sa sajta na wikipediu? To su vise cinjenice a i sajt je zvanican? Avala 15:30, 22 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Vec postoje: Political divisions of Serbia and Montenegro.

Uzgred, [1] i [2] prema [3] i [4] sugerise da neko treba da izvrsi jedan search/replace na ovom i drugim srodnim clancima (pre svega onim povezanim na njega...). Nikola 10:47, 24 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

[[5]] evo sajt sa svim informacijama. Ne samo lista okruga vec sve informacije. Pa ako se slazemo da je to sa sajta zvanicni materijal mogao bih da iskopiram i da napravim tekst o svakom okrugu Avala 20:06, 24 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Ja bih ipak pitao webmastera. U stvari, upravo mu pisem. Nikola 07:08, 25 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Vidim hvale se kao novi sajt, sve super a ovamo ne mogu da odgovore na obican e-mail! Avala 15:50, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Da, nista mi ne odgovara. Ne bi ti savetovao da to radis, sve ce ti pobrisati. Nikola 23:28, 31 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

Lepo cu napisati u fusnoti da je ta informacija zvanicna i da vlada ne moze drzati copyright za to. To je ionako 99% tacno. To nije ni neka umetnost napisati kolika je povrsina, gde se nalazi koji su gradovi.... --Avala 12:33, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I jos samo da kazem da na svakom sajtu , drzavnom sajtu, na kom sam bio ne stoji znak za C. Od singapurske vlade do predsednika austrije. Pretpostavljam da se to sve odnosi na izgled sajta. Tj da taj kopirajt drzi webmaster. A sadrzaj je verovatno slobodan ali takodje ovo je Srbija :) Avala 19:03, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)

UZA or CENTRAL

Just for the record if you type

Google search
Uza Srbija	1,500 results
Centralna Srbija	6,480 results
Central Serbia	1,260,000 results
Serbia proper	110,000 results

Avala 13:33, 6 May 2004 (UTC)[reply]

See Talk:Serbia proper for more on this search and why it proves nothing. Morwen 14:19, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

Factoids

I disagree in part with the recent edit by Jiang. I think that the obsolete ISO 3166-1 and calling code information should remain if it was true throughout the SFRY's existence. Presumably it was (unlike population information for 1991 or membership of the EU).

Did the area change during the SFRY's existence? If not, then I think that that should be reinserted.

If somebody does put the ethinic/national information back, I don't think that Muslim should count as a national or ethnic identity. Does Muslim mean something special here? Does it mean something like Muslim-Serb, Muslim-Croat, Muslim-Turkic or Muslim-Arab?

Tim Ivorson 11:33, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The area changed very little, in the 1950s the surroundings of Trieste were formally annexed. Yes, Muslims by nationality was a legal concept in SFRY. --Joy [shallot] 11:45, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Hello Joy [shallot]

I have linked the poulation groups to the relevent pages. I hope that this is appropriate. I have not bypassed redirects at Slovenes or Hungarians, in case there was an important reason for not using `Slovenians' and/or `Magyars'.

Ah, don't worry, all of it is correct, I don't think those English spellings were chosen by anything other than chance. While we're nitpicking, the combination that would fit the original phrasing the best would be "Slovenes" (Slovenci) and "Magyars" (Mađari). --Joy [shallot] 23:16, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have changed `Muslims' to `Muslims by nationality', but I have linked it directly to Slavic Muslims.

Is there a shorthand for [[Montenegrins (people)|Montenegrins]]?

I looked up Trieste and discovered the 1954 dissolution of the Free Territory of Trieste. Perhaps I should mention it and the area of SFRY in the history section.

Tim Ivorson 12:46, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yeah. I'm thinking we should also move this demographic data into the main text, like it's in other country articles. It looks crammed in the table, anyway. --Joy [shallot]

I added something about the annexation of Trieste's Zone B. I'm not sure whether what I wrote is accurate. I said "most significant change to the borders" because that's not strictly inaccurate if it was the only change to the SFRY's borders. Tim Ivorson 18:43, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I looked it up at Wikipedia:How_to_edit_a_page#Links_and_URLs and found that [[Montenegrins (people)|]] is the shorthand and that there is no lasting difference between that and what I did, because the shorthand is expanded in the Wikisource when it is saved.

Tim Ivorson 16:54, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yep, that's just fine. Looks a tad redundant in the source, but hey. --Joy [shallot]

IMO, that article shoul be moved to Montenegrins, a sentnce could be added which explains that in a wider sense, Montenegrins are all inhabitants of Montenegro. Nikola 03:00, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)