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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nathan Mercer (talk | contribs) at 07:44, 24 July 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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July 21

Category:International Democrat Union to Category:IDU

Let's keep it short, otherwise the similar Category:ELDR has to be called Category:European Liberal Democrat and Reform Party. Intangible 23:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Reward websites

transfer from PROD as PROD does not and should not do categories 132.205.45.110 22:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is self-promotion, nothing else. Wikipedia:Companies,_corporations_and_economic_information/Notability_and_inclusion_guidelines
02:03, 21 July 2006 - User:Jessemonroy650

More Academy Award categories

The automated mass renaming of the Academy Award categories seems to be over now, but some have slipped through the cracks. In at least one case this is because it was omitted last time.

Category:Celebrity Whovians

Spurious category, non encyclopedic ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:18, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Since the Ninth Doctor

Unused since creation in December 2005. - LA @ 18:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Beaches

The 7 categories listed below do not follow the same form as the other 27 national categories:

Category:Highways with full control of access and no cross traffic

Category:Highways with full control of access and no cross traffic (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Highways with full control of access and no cross traffic by country (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Highways with full control of access and no cross traffic in Canada (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Category:Highways with full control of access and no cross traffic in the United States (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)
Note: I have (as far as I know) informed everyone involved in the previous discussion, no matter what name they preferred, of this discussion. --SPUI (T - C) 19:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fictional Businesses to Category:Fictional businesses

Which nom? Do you mean that both Category:Fictional companies and Category:Fictional Businesses (caps fixed) should be kept, or that they should be merged into Category:Fictional companies? If the former, does the current structure bother you, where businesses is a subcat of the more specific companies? ×Meegs 20:05, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That would be factually incorrect. Category:Fictional companies should be a subcategory of Category:Fictional businesses. Hawkestone 18:01, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Japan history of foreign relations to Category:History of the foreign relations of Japan

Second attempt to sort out this name (see recent first attempt). Rationale: to follow parent Category:Foreign relations of Japan's name format (and improve grammar). David Kernow 15:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Smith College alumni to Category:Smith College alumnae

Smith is an all-women's college, so graduates are considered alunae, not alumni. I know that the category is relatively unpopulated right now, but there are at least a couple dozen people that could fit in it. cbustapeck 15:28, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Pundits to Category:Political pundits

The proposed name matches the intention of the category. The lead article is Pundit (politics), which could be moved to political pundit. Mixing in political pundits, business pundits, technology pundits and so on would not make the category more useful. Chicheley 14:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Articles lacking sources

This is a sibling and near-duplicate of the recently deleted category:Articles with unsourced statements and is a bad idea for all the same reasons, starting with the one pointed out on the category itself, namely that it is a self-reference. I would particularly like to emphasise that this is not a help for readers, and it is not needed as a warning to them, as the notes and boxes in the articles do that more than adequately. As it is can be added by templates it often appears at the head of the list of categories on an article, where it is an impediment to navigation, and suggests that Wikipedia is optimised for editors rather than readers (who outnumber regular editors by thousands to one), which makes Wikipedia look amateurish. The category is vast, and I see no prospect of it ever being cleared, which is not a bad thing, but just an inevitable outcome of the Wikipedia process. If is sometimes found on excellent articles with many references, when one person decides there are not quite enough; fair enough in some cases perhaps, but that action shouldn't interfere with the category system. I don't see how it is of much use in finding articles to work on, and subdivision would be a disaster as some articles could end up in 20 of the subcategories. It just has to go. Chicheley 14:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete as above. Chicheley 14:03, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This category is associated with Template:unreferenced and Template:primarysources, so any discussion of the category should start there, not here. siafu 14:42, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I strongly disagree. This is the page where we discuss how to optimise the category system. I am not proposing deletion of the templates as I don't have a problem with them, and the two issues should not be confused. Chicheley 14:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not confusing the two issues is exactly why I strongly suggest discussing it on the template talk page first. Deleting this category is pointless as it will be instantly recreated by using the templates unless said templates are first editted to not include the category. siafu 15:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • You are plainly and demonstrably wrong as the similar category has not been recreated. A template cannot create a category without human intervention. Chicheley 16:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • You misunderstand me clearly. Editors will recreate this category. Put simply, in order to get rid of this, the template must be editted, as a category redlink at the bottom of the page is much worse than another blue link in the list. In order to edit the template, you'll have to have consensus on the template talk. Going from here to there is completely backwards. siafu 17:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • I do not misunderstand you, and I am relying on a precedent while you are merely speculating. There are no "redlinks at the bottom of the page" in respect of the other category which was deleted, and if I see it again I will nominate it for speedy deletion. It is out of order to say that the categories for discussion page cannot discuss the fate of a particular category. Chicheley 17:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. "The category is vast may never be cleared", per Chicheley, this category obviously has plenty of demand. Additionally, the motivation presented for removing this category seems to be more about avoiding the problem of unsourced statement than optimizing categorization. siafu 15:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • It proves nothing of the kind. All it proves is that the template is added to lots of articles, which is not under dispute. The category has only been added to the template once. You misinterpretation of the motivation is absolute. There is no motivation other than to optimize categorization by reducing the number of distracting categories which are of little use to readers and by allowing categories to be put in a sensible order manually, without clumsy interventions by software. Chicheley 16:45, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • If I misunderstand, it is only by reading your words. In particular: "If is sometimes found on excellent articles with many references, when one person decides there are not quite enough; fair enough in some cases perhaps, but that action shouldn't interfere with the category system." The solution in this case is to remove the template from the article not eliminate the category altogether. The only reason removing it would prove impossible is if consensus is in favor of its presence. Eliminating the category is just a means of avoiding the problem. siafu 17:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • My words were clear enough. I am against the category, not the template. I want the category removed in all cases, and I am certainly not going to trawl through thousands of categories to look for cases where the template can be removed to reduce the damage done by the category. Chicheley 17:07, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • In that case, you argument that this category is used on excellent articles is absolutely meaningless and irrelevant, and your words were not clear enough. siafu 17:14, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • It is neither meaningless nor irrelevant. It is intended to expose the way this category can misrepresent the situation if the template is added overenthusiatically or if it isn't removed when additional references are added. At the very least the current name is ill thought out, as it can be read as "Articles that lack any sources". Indeed if you asked people to consider the phrase cold, I would expect them to assume it to mean exactly that. Chicheley 17:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
              • It is both; if there's a problem with its use on particular pages then the solution to that problem is much more specific than the deletion of the category. Whatever argument you make (including the ones you have) in favor of deleting the category outright are not supported by the fact that it's occasionally misused. The same goes for the choice of name. siafu 17:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. What we really need is a choice between "editing mode" and "reading mode", but on the whole Wikipedia's presentation is skewed towards the needs of editors, which can make it look rather scrappy. Most people don't edit anyway, but they might donate if their experience is optimised. Carina22 17:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as self reference. Hawkestone 19:30, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per well argued nomination. Casper Claiborne 22:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as deleting the category will not solve any of the problems raised. It is my personal opinion that the templates should only be used on talk pages to avoid clutter in the article and will solve the "impediment to navigation" problem the nom raises. Nom would also be wise to post actual statistics on the category itself. Discussion needs to be moved to template talk pages per siafu as deletion solves nothing. —Viriditas | Talk 01:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Deletion may not be what you want, but it solves all the problems that bother me. The talk page suggestion is a non-starter as the category placement is generated by templats which should be no the article page. Chicheley 13:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Agree with Viriditas. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 01:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep category. C56C 02:59, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per above. Passer-by 13:16, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Not useful to readers. Athenaeum 13:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The name is literally untrue in most cases and the category is needlessly self-denigratory. Honbicot 15:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Delete Would one see this in a professional encyclopedia? Wikipedia needs to improve its standards of presentation. Nonomy 17:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The contents are totally random and this category is therefore useless for browsing. Olborne 18:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is a maintenance category. It's not meant for browsing. siafu 21:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Some of us use this category, which is a maintenance category, to help fill in gaps in sourcing in articles. The fact that necessary and used maintenance categories are proposed for deletion here, when being maintenance categories they are intended as links to articles that need fixing, just shows the ludicrousness of these deletion pages, not this category. But then looking at many of the comments on this page, it seems that a lot of users don't know what maintenance categories are and how they are used. They operate fundamentally differently to ordinary categories and once an article is fixed it is taken off the category. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 23:55, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete It's a pain when the first four or five categories at the bottom of the article are non subject matter related, so having one less of these administrative categories would be useful. More could be deleted too, in particular all of those related to sources, eg 1911 Britannica. Cloachland 00:42, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Totally random connections are not category material. If there was a means of hiding this from all users apart from those who requested to see it, then it would be fine, but as things stand it is category clutter. Golfcam 02:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per nom. Nathan Mercer 07:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Rapid transit systems that operate around the clock to Category:24-hour rapid transit systems

The category's current name is too long, awkward, and unwieldy. It should be more concise, avoiding such colloquialism as "around the clock". Larry V (talk | contribs) 13:52, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I mean that the new name seems fine. The other sentence was added in case someone decides to argue for deletion. --SPUI (T - C) 16:54, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. Ok, sorry that I misinterpretted you. Alphachimp talk 17:11, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Articles with multiple video files

These technical administrative categories are a real barrier to the creation of a quality category system. They tend to appear first at the bottom of the article because the text that creates them appears further up the article than the main list of topic-related categories. It is not helpful to the reader that this is one of the first categories on Adolf Hitler's article. It makes it look like Wikipedia has an unencyclopedic set of priorities, and is not focused on providing easy navigability to closely related articles. Chicheley 13:46, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Israel and Zionism to Category:Zionism

1. Broad topic, "Israel" is not informative. 2. Correct English. Psychomelodic User:Psychomelodic/me 10:17, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Current national leaders who are relatives of a former leader

Suggest (a) rename to Category:National leaders related to a former leader; or (b) Category:Current national leaders related to a former leader if (to be) watched; or (c) delete as overly contingent. David Kernow 07:40, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Beach Boys and Beatles singles

These are the last, and potentially most troublesome, of the Singles by artist conversions. In the Beach Boys' case, all singles and B-sides by the band have been categorized, though they are all in the Songs category. In The Beatles' case, all singles and B-sides have been categorized, but they are not in the Songs category (only non-single, non-B-side Beatles songs are in the Songs category). I think we should merge all for the sake of consistency, but I'm open to other thoughts. The Beach Boys merges were offered up for discussion on Talk:The Beach Boys, and I've also informed Wikipedia talk: WikiProject The Beatles. Definitely say your peace if you don't want them merged.--Mike Selinker 06:44, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Famous Tests

POV name. Was discussed here a few weeks back but not acted upon. The three articles which are in it can move up one level to Category:History of Test cricket. -- I@n 06:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Postal codes of the United States to Category:ZIP codes of the United States

Correct term, although it should still be parented by Category:Lists of postal codes. ♥ Her Pegship♥ 03:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete both as a misunderstanding of the use of categories. — FireFox 10:04, 21 July '06

Category:Most Successful Female Rapper

and

Category:Second Most Successful Female Rapper

Because of the name of the category, they will only ever have one article in them; and their presence on Wikipedia is not necessary. JD[don't talk|email] 02:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

Category:Heavy metal singers by nationality to Category:Heavy metal singers

There aren't any categories other than for nationalities (and only one of those so far), and there might never be any, so this is a needless inconvenience. Chicheley 02:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Merge per nom. Chicheley 02:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Just perusing the destination category I can see the need for at least four more nationality categories (Swedish, Norwegian, German, Canadian) and doubtless there are more with a reasonable population. siafu 15:02, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • You have totally missed the point. How can you possibly have thought that I meant no other categories for partiular nationalities would be created? I mean no categories other than those for nationalities exist, and likely none will ever exist. This this category is nothing but an inconvenient extra click. It is particularly inconvenient at this early stage of subcategorisation as one cannot see the uncategorised articles and the by nationality subcategories at the same time. Chicheley 17:12, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Once again insisting I've missed the point, and then wondering how that could possibly happen, I see. If it couldn't possibly happen, maybe it didn't? You seem to be inferring an assertion not made by me, though, so I'll just adress it later. As for the second; I'm not following the "inconvenience" of an extra click. Not only does it only apply to users searching for articles by perusing the category system from the top-down, which is by no means the only or clearly most popular way to do things, but it implies that the parent category being of a greater size is not itself inconvenient. Category:Heavy metal singers is not small (108 members), and nor is Category:American heavy metal singers (35 members). Subdividing by nationality is done in almost all other occupations categories, and it's even done for other musicians-by-genre categories, and there is no reason not to do it in this case. I'm stating above that there would be reasonably sized populations for such categories ("and only one of those so far"). As to whether or not there might ever be any other type of subdivision for this category, it doesn't matter. There may never be. That doesn't mean this one isn't a good idea; in fact, it makes it an even better idea as this rather large category could do with some chopping down. BTW, have you made any mention of this one over at Wikipedia:WikiProject Metal? siafu 05:12, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • You think I am arguing against subdivision by nationality. What utter nonsense! My work on Wikipedia is primarily devoted to subcategorising people by nationality. It is beyond me how you can misintepret so many things so utterly. I am against this category because when the heavy metal singers are fully subdivided Category:Heavy metal singers by nationality will be the only item in Category:Heavy metal singers. As for now, it is even worse, because when a reader enters Category:Heavy metal singers they see a bunch of names and Category:Heavy metal singers by nationality and have no idea how much subcategorisation has been done. You did about Wikipedia:WikiProject Metal is utterly meaningless and out of place. Chicheley 18:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Quite frankly, your puzzlement about being "misinterpretted" is getting tiresome. For starters, the metal Wikiproject may well be able to suggest another way to subdivide this category, since you seem to be out of ideas- this is a category that needs subdivision. I don't think you are arguing against subdivision by nationality in general, but that you are arguing against it in this case because you said: I mean no categories other than those for nationalities exist, and likely none will ever exist. This this category is nothing but an inconvenient extra click. Are you or are you not arguing against the existence of this category? Are you arguing, then, that Category:Heavy metal singers should not be subdivided at all, simply because there is only one way to do it presently? If so, it would be a great idea to inquire at the wikiproject. If not, then there must be something in particular about subdividing by nationality. In the future, WP:AGF and keep in mind that, believe it or not, when people communicate in a written medium sometimes, just sometimes, what is written while being clear to the person who is writing it, is not clear to the person who is reading it, though both may be acting in good faith. Either way, I still believe that there is no reason to delete this category, and plenty of reason to keep, and I believe so for the reasons I've stated. siafu 18:55, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • I also find your comments tiresome, not to mention patronising. My last comments were utterly clear on the issue of whether I think that Category:Heavy metal singers should be subdivided at all. Yes!!!! (Are you going to dispute that too?) Please pay me the courtesy of reading my comments with some reasonable amount of care, especially when they have been rephrased in the clearest possible manner. It is unreasonable to claim lack of clarity in statements which possess no ambiguity whatsoever. Chicheley 01:05, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
              • I've read your comments with great care, and this is obviously going nowhere. Your insistence on what is or is not "unreasonable" is ridiculous, and apparently a resolution is not your goal. Simply agree to disagree-- and vote against me because you disagree and we'll let that be that. siafu 01:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom. Hawkestone 19:29, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep and fill category. Heavy metal is international and thus various members are from different nations. It is informative for a category to reflect a genre in different countries. But "singers" is too broad. Perhaps "Category:Heavy metal musicians by nationality." C56C 03:03, 22 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge per nom That only applies to Category:Heavy metal singers by nationality. Category:American heavy metal singers has not tagged been tagged for merger. Cloachland 00:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wrestlers who have died

The following discussion is an archived debate regarding the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was speedy delete as recreation of deleted content - EurekaLott 04:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The category is inappropriate as it will invariably become very large. McPhail 00:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.


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