Talk:Quebec sovereignty movement

Is "étapisme" really the best French term for sovereignty-association? My French isn't as good as it could be, but "étapisme" looks like it means "stopping off half way." It doesn't seem as precise as "souveraineté-association". The Canadian Oxford Dictionary gives the etymology as "first used as the slogan of the Mouvement Souveraineté-Association, forerunners to the Parti Québécois." Indefatigable 18:50, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

As expected, there are serious inaccuracies in this page.

Étapisme, from French étape (step) means step by step. The étapiste approach has been rejected as a way to achieve sovereignty. L'étapisme could consist of holding a referendum on the repatriation of jurisdictions, one by one, until Québec is a fully sovereign State, associated with Canada or not.

Some other problems:

"PQ leader René Lévesque, who led the party from 1968 to 1985, developed the idea of sovereignty-association to reduce the fear that an independent Quebec would face tough economic times."

This is the interpretation that was given by the English-speaking commentators at the time. According to René Lévesque and the sovereignists the reasons follow from logic :

- We were (and still are) moving towards a globalised world, where States open their borders to free movements of persons, goods, capital and ideas (therefore, culture). The construction of the European union was beginning. It was in the air to have these kinds of ideas.

- The case of Danemark and Norway as a good example. Following the independence of Norway, talks began for a political association profitable to both sides.

- Quebec and Ontario's economies were heavily interdependent. This is less true since the free trade agreement with the USA.

Again, this is an encyclopedia. You cannot simply put political opinions and propaganda in here. You need to support your claims with evidence. It would be good for this page to be written by people knowledgeable of History in general, colonial history and the history of Québec.

This page should deal with what Sovereignty-Association is:

1. A political movement that lead to the creation of the PQ.

2. A concept in which sovereignty is understood to be indissociable from international cooperation.

Bashing the separatists should be done in a page dedicated to it.Mathieugp

There is another factual error in the article. The Parti républicain du Québec wasn't founded after the 1966 Quebec general election, but after the 1962 Quebec general election. The PRQ folded in 1964.Mattcliche 01:55, Jul 11, 2004 (UTC)

Sovereignty association vs. Quebec Sovereignism

I just saw that this page was moved from Sovereignty association to Quebec Sovereignism. Without trying to exercise any sense of authorship, I believe this is not the best title for this article. I don't really think that "Quebec Sovereignism" is a word in English, and there are only 4 Google hits for the phrase -- and 3 are from Wikipedia. I'd like to restore Sovereignty Association to its own article that talks about it as an important concept in its own right, and then make a separate article on this somewhat broader topic, perhaps at Quebec sovereignty or Quebec sovereignty movement.

What do people think?

Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 22:42, 20 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There are 3 pages returned for Quebec sovereignism in Google, 5, if we just type sovereignism. In Canadian English, sovereignist, and sovereignism have entered the vocabulary. They are no more unatural than federalist and federalism. But you are right, there is a problem. First, sovereignism should not be capitalized. Also, the article History of the Quebec sovereignist movement used to be its own separate article. It was arbitrarily merged to this new article, along with Sovereignty-Association. These are all separate things that should have their own articles:

sovereignist = person who advocates sovereignty for Quebec
sovereignism = the political orientation, theory, or ideology of the sovereignists
sovereignty = the quality or state of being sovereign, self-government, independence
Sovereignty-Association = Political option of the MSA, and the Parti Quebecois under the leadership of Rene Levesque. Independence + Interdependence.
sovereignist movement = the movement that started with the 1967 MSA or the whole of the independence movement that started in 1957 depending on who you 8ask.

Personally, I favor Quebec sovereignist movement, Sovereignty-Association, and History of the Quebec sovereignist movement being different articles. Quebec sovereignty and Quebec sovereignism should redirect to Quebec sovereignist movement.

-- Mathieugp 00:29, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, Mathieugp -- these are all good suggestions and I'd be happy to work on that when I'm back from Texas next week (yes -- it may be hard to tell I'm "away"...). I do have one last question: would you feel OK about having Quebec sovereignty movement instead of Quebec sovereignist movement ? "Sovereignist" still seems a bit weird to me, but as I don't actually live in Canada.... Thanks again, BCorr|Брайен 19:03, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

If you think many native English speakers from outside Canada might find the word "sovereignist" weird, then yes it might be better to use "sovereignty". In that case we can have Quebec sovereignist movement (and Quebec independence movement while we are at it) point to Quebec sovereignty movement. -- Mathieugp 19:48, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I have found that in spoken Canadian English, the nouns sovereigntist and sovereigntism (note the t's) are much more common than sovereignist and sovereignism. Indeed, I cannot recall hearing the word sovereignist used to refer to the Quebec movement in at least the last decade by any English-speaking media personality or politician. I also note that dictionary.com defines sovereigntist as 'a Canadian who advocates the independence of Quebec', and has no entry for sovereignist.

I would think that a better title for the page would be 'Quebec Sovereignty', but failing that 'Quebec Sovereigntism' would be preferable to 'Quebec Sovereignism', to reflect general usage if nothing else. --Saforrest 04:44, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

Moving to Quebec sovereignty movement

I propose this:

We move the recently created Quebec Sovereignism to Quebec sovereignty movement. It deals with information on the movement, its position, its history (summary) etc.
We make Quebec independence movement, Quebec sovereignty, etc. point to it. A lot of people will search for these I guess.
We recreate History of the Quebec sovereignist movement as History of the Quebec sovereignty movement. This presents a detailed history of the movement.
We recreate Sovereignty-Association as it was before. It deals with the concept of Sovereignty-Association as it was in the 1980s.

If you agree, add your name below. Thanks. -- Mathieugp 16:18, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I second the motion. This sounds like a good plan. Good article names and subdivision of the topics--Indefatigable 03:05, 11 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Renaming?

Why did this page not end up staying as Quebec sovereignty movement? (Its present name is Quebec Sovereigntism. The former seems a perfectly acceptable name. --Saforrest 15:58, Oct 12, 2004 (UTC)

If you wish to move it back to what it was before, add your name above. Right now, we are only two people and its now enough. -- Mathieugp 19:10, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)