Talk:Shadow of the Colossus

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Alright then. Let's talk about the large and small section.

I thought it was nonsense and removed it, but apparently it deserves to stay in. That was the first edit I've made to the article, so I apologise if there was a discussion about this in the past where you agreed to keep it in. Having said that, I'd like to know what makes it significant. -- Steel 11:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

I personally think large-and-small is a big concept of the game. Considering that the Shrine of Worship is basically a huge version of the Save Shrines, and that there are lizards and birds around, which have Colossi analogs, and that Wander and Agro even have Colossi analogs, it's rather interesting. Add to that the fact that there's a humongous, colossal tree, to analog with the ordinary-sized ones that can be seen, I'm almost certain this large-and-small comparison is intentional.
However, I can't confirm that; does any of the making-of or design web sites or so on suggest that this relationship was intentional, or important? It might be good to cite at least some kind of verifiable source. I'm a big fan of including whatever is appropriate to the article, and I do think this is perfectly viable to include, but it does need something to stand on... -JC 18:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because there's big versions and small versions of things in a game doesn't make "Large and Small" a theme. For example, the player travels across many different types of terrain in SotC (desert, forest, etc). But that doesn't mean that "contrast" is a theme. To take another example: in Zelda, there are large and small gorons. Oh my God, Large and Small must be a theme in that game too! I hope you see what I'm getting at.
Like you said yourself - none of this has been confirmed, so even if it is a theme, it should be killed per Wikipedia:Verifiability until there's evidence from the developers. -- Steel 18:46, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It's been three days, and no-one has given any more reasons why this should stay. I'm removing it on the basis that it's unintentional and made up by fans - which it is until the developers say otherwise. -- Steel 18:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you may have missed the point of the verifiability thing. It need not be that the developers have said that the large and small theme was intentional. There need only be a published (electronic or paper) source for it, examining the matter. Use this. The large and small theme is -- regardless of whether or not it was intentional -- something that is most obviously there, and is certainly notable. I think this section should be restored. Ryu Kaze 22:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, it already was. Well, nevermind. Ryu Kaze 23:01, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

For anyone else following this, take a look at my talk page and Schicksal's talk page for further discussion. Anyway, I still think the Large and Small section cannot stay as it is. Saying "The birds and Avion are both flying creatures, and both can carry Wander through the air." is not evidence for a large and small theme. A few vague relationships between the small animals and the colossi does not make large and small a theme. To take Zelda as an example again, there are fish in the sea of Majora's Mask, and there's also a fish boss. That does not make large and small a theme in that game. It is not "obviously there". And the FAQ that you provided essentially confirms that it's made up by fans. Also, regarding the FAQ, please read WP:RS, specifically, the following:

"A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses.

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources."

Summary: There is no significance in the relationship between the fish and the fish colossus, and that information does not belong in the article.-- Steel 16:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I apologise if I came across a bit confrontational. It was not my intention. -- Steel 18:01, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Steel's right, while there are large and small objects in the game, it doesnt make it a prevelant theme.--Awesome Username 21:42, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I haven't really been paying attention to the article recently. I'll give you my input(yes/no) on each entry in this section to help cut it down/rewrite it.

• Agro and Phaedra both have an equine configuration. questionable, i'd have to play again to see how similar looking they really are, but i'm going to say no
• The birds and Avion are both flying creatures, and both can carry Wander through the air. this is interesting, because you wouldn't think the small birds could carry a man, although they can in the game. should probably be rewritten.
• The fish and Hydrus are both aquatic animals, and both can drag Wander around underwater. see above
• The lizards and Kuromori are both reptilian in nature, and both land on their backs and struggle to right themselves when dislodged from walls. yes, their animations/behavior are very similar, which helps to support a theme
• The tortoises and Basaran also share physiologies. would have to look again
• Wander has many counterparts among the colossi: Valus, Gaius, Barba, Argus, and Malus are all humanoid, although Malus, with its huge stone 'skirt', is more likely a counterpart to Mono. Valus, Gaius, and Argus carry weapons in their right hands. should be rewritten and merged into some kind of "general similarities"
• Just south of Dirge's cave is a mesa featuring a dead tree the size of a colossus: a stark contrast to the smaller fruit-bearing trees found throughout the land. yes, the tree is seriously huge, it's one of my favorite sights in the game
• Also in that cave tiny Bats can be found which could be seen as small versions of Dormin* would have to play again
• The save points around the world are miniature versions of the Shrine of Worship. yes

Schicksal 13:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What you are doing here is original research, which is not what Wikipedia is for. I'd still like to see a reliable external source which says that large and small is a theme. Unfortunately, FAQs don't qualify due to, as it says on WP:RS, "no one stands between the writer and the act of publication". -- Steel 13:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Uh, no, what I am doing is giving you my input on revising the section, as you said you wanted to do. We've been over this. That section does not need to be cited. It's a theme. Do you honestly think it's required by the developers that they say "yes, we do this and we meant it to mean exactly this" for a Wikipedia article to be published? A theme is not something that the developers necessarily even need to have intended. You are going to wait a long time before a reputable publication puts out an article based on the (mind-numbingly obvious) theme of Large and Small in Shadow of the Colossus. Either rewrite it like you said you were going to do or just leave it alone. Don't harm this article due to wanting to follow the letter of the Wikipedia law. There's a lot of articles about things that are impossible to cite - go file AFDs on them instead of trying to remove a section about the relationship between large and small in a game where a little man fights a bunch of huge giants. Schicksal 18:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Due to the fact that anyone can edit a Wikipedia article, it is imperative that we source the information we add to articles. This so called theme is not mind numbingly obvious, and even if it was, we would still need an external source. Please read WP:V:

"Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed."

I am doing just that. Challenging and trying to remove unsourced fan speculation based on a few vague relationships between animals and colossi. Please understand, this is rule is absolutely crucial for Wikipedia's reputation as an encycopedia. -- Steel 19:00, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What of the other gameplay info in the article, then? The plot summary, character analyses, and other gameplay info? I don't see citations for them. The problem with no original research is that people tend to take it to extremes, such as you have here - when it's a rule meant to protect clearly false and damaging information from being spread. That guideline was not written with a video game article in mind. I don't appreciate your quoting of that guideline to delete this section when other sections in the same article could also be perceived to be in violation of it. The section is not even well written - you could have made an excellent point to delete it due to the fact that many of the correlations are obvious and a relationship between large and small in a game about colossi is to be expected - but instead you want to delete it based on perceived violation of a rule. This makes me think that you aren't really deleting it because you want to improve the article, you just don't like the section. That is OK, but it is really preferable to rewrite or somehow integrate the info with the rest of the article rather than obliterating it.

Please understand, this is rule is absolutely crucial for Wikipedia's reputation as an encycopedia. If Wikipedia's reputation hinges on this one rule, then we are really in trouble, because click the random article button a few times and you'll end up with a few articles that are mostly uncited, and feature user-written descriptions of their subjects. Wikipedia does however have a reputation as a site where you can find relevant/useful info on just about anything, and please don't take away from that by removing this section rather than trying to improve it/integrate it. Thanks. Schicksal 19:40, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, it's Summer and I have a lot of free time. Let's find a source for everything in this article and remove the bits we can't verify. As it says on my user page, I've been looking for something to do here. You're welcome to help, Schicksal. We could even get this to be a featured article if we all pitch in. -- Steel 19:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't here to publish unverified original research. I don't quite agree with the lenghty plot summary, but that's more of a style choice for the WikiProject, not me. Character analysis is pushing it, as there's no analysis. As for other gameplay info, the list of Save Points probably should get cut, and the list of Colossi is nice, but not necesarilly appropriate for an encyclopedia article. At least all of that is based on evidence from the game, and manuals, not personal interpretations.

Sadly, the relationship between large and small isn't based on anything concrete in the games. It's more or less the personal analyses and research of people who had nothing to do with the creation of the game. WP:NOR and WP:V both apply here. The claim has not been verified, and while if it is verified, unless the cretors specifically go into depth listing these relationships, that list is also original research. That'll have to go.--Toffile 19:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I never disagreed with that list being original research. I merely don't feel it's right to kill the list when so many other things in the article suffer from the same problem. That is all, I have no problem with that list getting deleted, as long as other items in the article are also heavily revised/deleted by the same yardstick. Schicksal 20:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, asking you to examine the entire article for violations is hardly a strawman. A strawman refers to setting up a weak argument and then attributing that argument to the opponent. That is not the case here. Don't patronize my efforts by attributing logical fallacies to me. Steel's argument was perfectly valid, however it applies just as much to the rest of the article as it does to that one section. Anyway, I would be glad to help once we get started on thoughts to improve this article rather than cut it up. Schicksal 20:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup

Yeah, so now we're all best friends I think it's time we took a look at the article to see what can go. I also want to get everything referenced, possibly up to featured article standard depending on whether I get any assistance. Anyway, my suggestions,

Description. This can be cut down and added to the introductory paragraphs.
Story. Possibly cut down depending on the response here.
Characters. Not sure what to do about this.
Colossi. I quite like that table, though I'm open to suggestions.
Extras. Instruction manual/strategy guide stuff. Got to go.
Connections to Ico. I think this section is important. In fact, it's the reason I first came to this article. Must be sourced though.
Large and Small. Is that going now?
European version. Staying.
Wander vs Wanda. Cut down to one sentence and added to European version
Japanese packaging. At the moment that's just stuck on the bottom of the article with no real purpose. Maybe European version could be changed to Regional differences and stick the Japanese packaging there.
Early development as Nico. Possibly cut down to one or two sentences and moved elsewhere.
Viral marketing campaign. Random website spreads false rumours. This can go.
External links. Cut down per WP:EL

Comments? -- Steel 21:57, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

The description is alright, but should be cut down. Story is way too long. Characters section seems unencyclopedic. Colossi table is pretty good information, and its easily verifiable. Not really unnecessary gameplay info, as the names of the colossi aren't in the game, they were released by the media. Extras should be removed. Connections to Ico should be sourced a little better but yeah. Delete L+S, compress WvW into european version section. Japanese packaging is out of place where it is. Nico section is relevant but there is probably too much info on it in the article. Viral marketing campaign will have to be discussed. External links, there's too many, currently.

I mostly think the article has too many unencyclopedic parts, and elaborates far too much on them. Care should be taken to not cut down the article to stub length, but it's way too bloated as is. Schicksal 22:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I pretty much agree with everything you've said there. I'll remove the Extras and L+S sections then, you OK with that? I'm currently looking for a reliable website which dictates the story, though all I'm finding are reviews. I'll find a site with that colossi table on it too. -- Steel 22:21, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Also, check out the Final Fantasy X article. The story section in that is only slightly longer than the one here, yet FFX has much more story than this game. The plot summary here is definitely too long. -- Steel 22:25, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Referencing

I've added a load of websites to my sandbox. At some point I'll sift through it all and reference that description section, unless someone else does it first. Also, the Connections to Ico are proving hard to find a source for, so I'd appreciate assistence on that. -- Steel 11:38, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, another quick note. The Final Fantasy X people have used lines from the game to source their story info. We could easily do the same. The game script is easy enough to find. -- Steel 11:42, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Characters Section

After doing some revision with the "Story" section (mostly shortening it and making it more concise), the Characters section is starting to bug me more and more, as it contains a lot of redundant information. It's hard to figure out what to do with it. I've often considered just cutting it down into a very short "voice actors only" section on several occasions, but then we'd lose some information (particularly for Dormin) that really needs to be in the article.

Any way you look at it, the Characters section needs a complete overhaul. That, plus we could really use a section discussing interesting points and examples of Dormin's mysterious dual nature. Any ideas? Comments? (Constructive) criticism? Onlynameicanget 00:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The story section can be cut down dramatically. See the Final Fantasy X article - the story section there is only slightly longer than ours, but FFX has masses more story than this game. Indeed, this point was also raised in this game's (not very active) peer review. After the story section's shorter, the characters section should end up not repeating what's already been said... if you get me?
I've been working on getting everything in the article sourced by reliable sources, and I have an alergy to far fetched fan theories, so try and avoid adding stuff which could be seen as original research.
When I have the time, I'll go through the game script and the various reviews/previews for this game to get the story section referenced. -- Steel 17:29, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and a lot of games also have a Gameplay section. I guess I'll get round to that sometime too. -- Steel 17:35, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The chars section is hugely overblown, especially in comparison to the FFX article, which is on a game with vastly more backstory than this one has. Nuking it down to voice actors only and integrating Dormin into Story is probably best. Schicksal 22:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

More about the cleanup

I removed two images from the story section, as it was a bit cluttered. The one of Wander holding his sword can be added to the Gameplay section when it gets written. The map was nice, and could well be included, just not in the story section because I think one image is enough for that. -- Steel 20:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Giant Names

Why is the information on the table that shows information about the Colossi constantly changing? I remember Gaius was known as the "Earth Knight" now it states it was known as the "Earth Truth" and also Malus was at first called "Grand Gigas" and is now "Grand Superior", why does someone keep changing the names? I know that this information came from an instruction booklet or something but why is the information constantly changing?

Those are simply translations of the Latin names, and people are coming up with better translations. :) -JC 03:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, someone is changing the names and needs to cut it out! Can someone please cite a source here to end this whole ordeal Kara Umi 08:54, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That table needs to be sourced or it has to go. As it is, it's basically original research. -- Steel 09:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure the latin names have been sourced at one point. The rest is original research. The table itself isn't really appropriate, but I can't think of how else to have info on the colossi. Schicksal 17:58, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Me neither. -- Steel 19:03, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Spoiler Tags

Do we really need one of these for every section that contains a spoiler? Seems to me like we only really need the one in Story. Schicksal 18:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

They're having a massive discussion about spoiler tags down at the CVG talk page. May as well wait and see what decision they come to. -- Steel 19:31, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Disc Cover images

Something needs to be done there. Either a frame that separates them somehow (an individual frame for each image), or resize them and make them go down in a row, or kill the extra images. Right now, the three of them mushed together look like, well, crap. I would do it myself but we need consensus on the final look, and I don't really know if the options I listed above are doable with wiki's code. Thoughts please Tani unit 20:53, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure, but the JP art is gorgeous and should remain on the page. Schicksal 21:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps following Ico article's example we should select just one cover art and drop the rest. I see no need to have all three of them considering how minimal the differences are. I would also like to see the japanese original art as the one selected. Tani unit 22:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Although I have the PAL copy and think the US cover is the worst of the three, I think the US cover is best suited for the infobox. I'll check with the WP:CVG and see if they have recommended guidelines on this. -- Steel 22:05, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I kind of thought you guys would like that change a bit more. I based the cover art pictures off of the way they are arranged on Final Fantasy X, a featured article that I look to as a really good example of how a video game article should be done. This time around I structured the images in order of the game's release (US, Japan, Europe), but we can easily change that. It seems that the most-liked cover is the Japanese cover, so I guess I'll make that one predominant. -- Onlynameicanget 00:43, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit: Okay, I did that. I also realised that having the Japanese cover as the biggest is probably best, because it's the only cover showing a possible scenario in the game. Not only is Agro present with Colossus #1 in the US and PAL covers, both aforentioned covers show the entrance to the Forbidden Lands right next to #1. Plus, I think the US and PAL covers compliment each other nicely together. What do you guys think? -- Onlynameicanget 00:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I guess Final Fantasy article is a good example to go by. Although having a white background with centered graphics (in FF's case) certainly helps the covers not to look as crowded :), but I think in this current form the infobox looks fine. Besides, having the cover image from the country of origin as the predominant one seems fitting. Me like. Tani unit 00:57, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I still think having the Japanese cover as the main image is unsuitable for the English Wikipedia. Indeed, the CVG suggested using the US cover. Having said that, I'm not going to make a huge fuss about this. I've fussed enough already over this article. -- Steel 09:42, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

News

Any news on a sequel/other iteration of the story? 68.225.240.87 03:11, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Uhh, no.

And there are game sites for this sort of questions. Tani unit 03:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Reception/Crticial response

Along with the Gameplay section which has now been added, this is an area which we do need to cover. I'm currently gathering sources, though I could use suggestions on what could be included here. So far:

• Review scores + media opinion
• Sales figures (Both in comparision with ICO and other similar games)
• Awards
• Issues with the game (Many reviews comment on the annoying camera, for example)

If all goes well we could really beef out the article with this section. On an unrelated note, has anyone found a source for the Connections to Ico? I haven't managed to :( -- Steel 19:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks good to me, I thinks sales figures for both games would be especially interesting.

As far as connections to Ico I haven't had any luck either. Will keep looking though.

edit: i was trying for a while to find a source for the bit about Ico being the descendenat of Wanda, but the best I can do is this interview, where this confirmation is hardly as definitive:

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,70286-0.html?tw=rss.culture

Wired News: Is there any connection between the worlds of Ico and Shadow of the Colossus?

Fumito Ueda: There's no specific connection as far as a timeline. But, both games exist in the same world.

WN: But you've said the baby we see at the end of Colossus is the first 'baby born with horns' referred to in the backstory of Ico.

FU: Yes. I wanted to give some idea to the player, after you complete the game, that there was a connection to Ico. That's why I put in the baby with the horns. If somebody goes all the way through the game, I wanted them to be rewarded.

I'm starting to think that this definitive confirmation about the descendent may have been a rumor. Will keep looking though.

Tani unit 22:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

What's annoying is that everything in this section is highly speculative. Internet forums have had huge discussions about all of this. It's all open to interpretation making it hard to source, if what is in the article is even correct. -- Steel 23:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I found an IGN article where they talk to some guy from SCEA about the connections to Ico. Bad news? It's for IGN insiders only, and you need to subscribe to see it. -- Steel 18:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

"Roar of the Earth" merge

We should merge Roar of the Earth into the article. The RotE article is very stubby, and we can easily fit the track listing back into Shadow's article without taking up a lot of space; just look at what these guys did, as an example. Besides, the soundtrack really needs to have a significant place in the article anyway; it is arguably one of the game's strongest elements, and it just doesn't deserve the footnote-like mentioning it has currently. What do you guys think? -- Onlynameicanget 23:54, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Lots of people like the soundtrack so I guess it wouldn't be hard to find some GameSpot/IGN coverage on it. I was initially sceptical about listing the tracks, since it doesn't really add anything to the article, but since the Half Life article is featured, I guess it couldn't hurt to do what they did. -- Steel 23:59, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

We could, but the reason the soundtrack has it's own article in the first place is because people complained that the Colossus article was too big hence the separation. I have no problem with rejoining them though, seeing as Half-Life and Ico articles have done it. Tani unit 00:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

This article won't be too big when we cut down the characters section and get rid of the Colossi table. -- Steel 00:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Ico connections

Allright, the unsourced parts are as follows:

* At the end of Shadow of the Colossus, Wander/Dormin is shown to have become a baby with horns. Ueda has confirmed this to indicate that Wander/Dormin sires the line of horned boys, of which Ico is a descendant.

- Nothing definitive on this, interviews I found confirm they exist in the same world, and Shadow is a prequel with now specific timeframe mentioned, but we can safely assume that they don't immediately follow one another. Ico being Wanda's descendant is confirmed, sort of.

*The shadowy figures that surround Wander after he defeats a colossus are of a similar design to certain ghosts that rise to challenge Ico; this may be a hint that these spirits have the same origins.

- They look similar enough, but I have seen no mention of that in the interviews, and haven't looked for any reviews stating that. Will have to look further.

*In Ico, immediately after releasing Yorda from her cage, the player comes to a long bridge with a statue at the nearest end. The statue is of a man with horns (one is broken off), who is wearing a tunic and has a hair-cut similar to Wander's. Some in-game features may simply be hints to Ico and not story related.

- Seems self-evident enough, does it really need a reference?

*The way the Shadows stand around Wander in a circle after he defeats a Colossus is also similar to how the shadows encircled Yorda during Ico's ending.

- Far too POV and incidental. Doubt it should be even mentioned.

*Clothing, and designs on those clothes, are of a similar style. This includes Ico and Wander's tunics looking very similar and Yorda and Mono's dress looking very similar. Some fans have found a beach that looks very similar to the one shown in Ico's ending.

- Reinforces Ueda's point about the design team unintentionally giving the games the same feel and look. Alos reinforces the connection as far as the setting goes. Confirmed by the same interview as the very first point.

What do you guys think? Tani unit 00:15, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

A lot of it, although it seems obvious, is original research at the moment. Also, I've heard that Wander doesn't father a line of boys, as in Ico each boy is sent to that castle place before he can reproduce. I am reluctant to say this, but the whole section may need to be significantly cut down. -- Steel 00:18, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Wait, ignore some of that. -- Steel 00:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

• Put "Citation needed" tags on anything that you think needs to be referenced, and I'll try to dig up some dirt on it. Actually, that applies to the whole article! :P -- Onlynameicanget 01:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Everything. -- Steel 01:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Done for connections section. I will look through the rest of the article tomorrow, hopefully. Tani unit 01:39, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone know if any (paper) strategy guides have been made for this game (by Nintendo Power or whatnot)? Those things usually have "secrets" chapters which might list some of the connections to Ico. -- Steel 11:09, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

There was the BradyGames guide. I don't own it though. Schicksal 20:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I asked around on GameFAQs and apparently it doesn't have anything about the connections in it. Pain. -- Steel 20:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps one of us, as a wikipedia user, could inquire directly with team Ico or Fumito Ueda himself. Small chance but who knows. Shure would get some things cleared up. Tani unit 21:38, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I would be willing to do that if I knew how to get in touch with them. -- Steel 21:43, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

His article lists http://fumi.to/ as his semi-defunct personal website, with ued@fumi.to

as his email. Could be worth a shot. Tani unit 18:46, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Viral Marketing Campaign

This has been bugging me for a while. Do one non notable website's bogus claims deserve such a large section in the article? I'm in favour of getting rid of the entire section myself. -- Steel 18:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we could keep it as a short one paragraph summary, with no pics.

For instance something like this:

In October 2005, a viral marketing campaign was launched to promote the game. A website called Giantology.net posted links to several websites claiming that remains of five giants resembling certain colossi had been unearthed or discovered in various parts of the world.

We could also mention that compared to Ico the game received a lot more promotion and advertising. I'm pretty sure I could even find the article to source that.

edit: - got it Tani unit

I think this should go into the Reception paragraph after the sales figures. How's this;

The game, unlike Ico, received far more exposure, due to Sony putting it's weight behind a massive advertising campaign. (ref the kikizo article here). It was advertized in game magazines, on TV and on the internet, including a viral marketing campaign that was launched in October 2005. A website called Giantology.net posted links to several websites claiming that remains of five giants resembling certain colossi had been unearthed or discovered in various parts of the world.

Some speculate that Ico's sales figures could have been much better if similar advertizing effort was made before it's release. (http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=59445). Tani unit 01:13, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Reverts unexplained

Is there an explanation why my edits to this article this morning were reverted? They were fairly careless, as both grammatical errors and prose polishing were undone along with the changes to the infobox and the removal of the review table.

I'd be willing to better explain any edit, but I'd appreciate it if someone would ask instead of blindly reverting. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:45, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The changes you made to the genre paragraph are poorly worded and do nothing to improve the meaning. The image use was discussed earlier on this talk page (see Cover Images section). Also, I would like you to explain the removal of the ranking section. While your efforst to improve this article are certainly appreciated, but you'd be better for reading the entire talk page, and mentioning it in the talk page before removing sections from the article. Tani unit 02:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It's hardly my problem that you don't see the reason for reverts. Like I said, the changes you made are poorly worded, the removal of the table is unexplained, and the image use was addressed earlier. Further reverts to your own edit from you will probably be considered vandalism at this point, so I suggest you explain yourself on this talk page. Tani unit 02:14, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

First off, please knock off the blind reverting to an older version. You've removed uncontroversial grammatical corrections further down the article twice now.

As for the cover image, I am raising a fuss, and I'm raising it now. There's no need to have three fair-use images illustrating one game, and in this case the NA release is even the first release, making things simple. It's the best-selling version, it's the first version, and it's the first English-language version.

As for the genre thing, let me take another crack at it. I'm not happy with either version right now, and I think something closer to the original would be better, you're right. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I've removed the review scores sections because this isn't GameRankings, and repeatedly the CVG project has decided not to add lists of review scores or links to Gamerankings, favoring instead descriptive prose quoting from cited reviews. This article already does the latter, but really doesn't need to do the former. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Finally, dialogue. I can see the logic behind removing the scores, so I have no problem there. As far as the images - there are no strict guidelines to the cover use with international releases, and there are articles (such as FFX) that use multiples. Also, it could also be argued that the game's country of origin is Japan hence the Japanese cover is most appropriate. But we'll discusss that later. Why exactly are you dissatisfied with genre paragraph? Tani unit 02:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It can be argued that the game's country of origin is Japan. However, the NA release is still the first release, and this is still the English-language Wikipedia. The Final Fantasy WikiProject (and their ugly FFX table, ew)'s style doesn't really trump WP:FUC; you may want to read WP:FUC #3 in particular, which counsels the use of as few fair-use images as possible, and to a lesser extent #8, which counsels against decorative use of fair-use images.

My objections to the genre paragraph are strictly grammatical. "Because of this (what "this" is is a bit vague), Shadow of the Colossus is regarded (by whom?) as both ("is regarded as" feels terribly awkward) an action-adventure game and a puzzle game."

I filled in some of the gaps on that sentence, and came up with "Because of this mix of different genres, Shadow of the Colossus has been described as both an action-adventure game and a puzzle game." - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)