Talk:Kosovo/Archive 10

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Protection and introduction of article

This article is protected since May 30 because of disputes on its introduction. Please refer to /Archive 9 and /Intro_changes_proposal for more information. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:39, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected now. -- ChrisO 07:40, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Congradulations

Finally the good editors of Wikipedia came to their senses. I remember a time when Kosovo was a part of the FRY even though it was 2005. I'm glad that it really does say that it is part of Serbia. Peace. --Косово 04:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

There has been no agreement whatsoever. The dispute continues!Ferick 00:09, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

There has been agreement. If you continue revert warring, POV-pushing and inserting original research, action will be taken against you. I suggest that you accept that a majority consensus has been reached and move on from there. -- ChrisO 07:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with this version, at all. ilir_pz 11:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

We all know why Ilir, give it a rest. Litany 11:10, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not think I can bear it. Thanks for the piece of advice. ilir_pz 11:12, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Basic rules of engagement

I think it might be worth reminding people of the basic rules of Wikipedia. A lot of the arguments over the previous version of this article were, I think, largely due to these policies not being followed. I've rewritten the article to make it strictly wikipolicy-compliant, and I intend to ensure that those policies are followed on this article:

• Don't add partisan commentary, and ensure that your contributions are written in a neutral tone. We're here to write an encyclopedic article, not a partisan screed. (WP:NPOV).

• Any additions must be sourced, cited and verifiable. (WP:CITE, WP:V).

• Any sources must be reliable. Newspaper reports, government documents, books and reports from well-known international organisations are generally regarded as good sources. Commentary on ersonal websites or the personal views of individual editors are not. (WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NOR.

If we follow these policies we should be OK. -- ChrisO 07:37, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the version that I just inserted, and is being blindly reverted by Litany does comply with all the points above. The source I provided can't be more verifiable, reliable, and the most important document. I will have to revert back to that, as it is more legitimate than any newspaper claim that some people like to cite here. Regards, ilir_pz 11:38, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

What other encyclopedias say

For the record, I think it's worth mentioning how other reputable and reliable encyclopedias describe Kosovo's status:

Encyclopedia Britannica

Kosovo, region within the republic of Serbia, Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia, 1929–2003), occupying the southwestern portion of the republic...

Britannica Student

The province of Kosovo is part of Serbia and Montenegro (formerly Yugoslavia), a country in the Balkan region of Southeastern Europe.

Britannica Junior

The province of Kosovo lies within the republic of Serbia, in eastern Europe.

The Oxford Dictionary of English

Kosovo, an autonomous province of Serbia ...

The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable

An autonomous province of Serbia bordering on Albania ...

Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names

A geographic, and predominantly Albanian-populated, region under Serbian sovereignty—but, in effect, a European-run colony or protectorate under UN administration since mid-1999 ...

World Encyclopedia

Autonomous province in s Serbia ...

The Macmillan Encyclopedia

An autonomous province of S Serbia, in the Union of Serbia and Montenegro.

The Crystal Reference Encyclopedia

Province of S Serbia...

The Columbia Encyclopedia

Albanian Kosova, Serbo-Croatian Kosovo i Metohija and Kosmet ... S Serbia and Montenegro, in Serbia.

The Hutchinson Encyclopedia

Autonomous region 1945-1990 of southern Serbia ...

In short, there isn't a single reference source that I can find that describes Kosovo as anything other than a province in Serbia. This emphasizes just how far outside the mainstream Ilir pz and Ferick's position is. -- ChrisO 12:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Eh - that's what I've been trying to say for a long time... Please skim the Archives. The same thing (...Province of Serbia...) is stated by the CIA World Factbook, as well as by several sites dedicated to the "Countries of the World", Brockhaus Encyclopedia, LaRousse, etc. --HolyRomanEmperor 18:07, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

And all these sources are more reliable than Kosovo's Constitutional Framework adopted by the UN administration, and approved by UN's Security council???? Am I saying something wrong, or the Constitutional Framework of Kosovo is the most important law, and especially over any Encyclopedias that you have cited here? I do not think my mainstream is far from the truth, yours is, definitely, because it ignores this main document. Greetz, ilir_pz 13:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a collection of legal documents and resources. Encyclopedias contain interpretations of laws and documents. If all big news stations, international organisations and encyclopedias interprete the Constitutional Framework as Kosovo being a province of Serbia, why should we disagree? That would come close to original research, which is not allowed (Wikipedia:NOR). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:06, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

How can you be allowed to misinterprete a Constitution just like that then? NOWHERE does this UN approved document state what some people are speculating above? I am all against speculation, dear Wikipedians. Should anyone have a political reason to push for that, I am the last person who cares about that pushy way of misinterpreting a law. Regards, ilir_pz 14:14, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record, am I correct that it is your opinion that all encyclopedias above [1] and in addition the BBC, CNN, the IMF, the UN and the EU [2] all misinterprete the Constitutional Framework? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

"Interpreting" a document is original research. We go by what our cited, verifiable and reputable sources tell us. Our sources tell us, unanimously, that Kosovo is a province in Serbia. Therefore we also say that Kosovo is a province in Serbia. It's as simple as that. -- ChrisO 19:19, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Official languages

It is not completely clear to me what the official languages of Kosovo are. Until the 24th of May, the article named only Albanian and Serbian. That day, Turkish was added [3] and today even English [4]. This link [5] names only Albanian and Serbian, so that is what I changed it to. Maybe somebody can clarify? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 15:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think only Albanian and Serbian is the official languages in Kosovo. But Turkish and perhaps even Romany for Roma people is official in some municipalities or it is semi-official? Albanian is of course official due to as many as 90% of the population speak Albanian, and Serbian (or Serbocroatian or something simulare)is the language for Serbs, Bosniaks, Montenegrins, Janjevci and Goranis.

According to the link [6] "English is the official language of UNMIK. The texts of legislation created in Kosovo since the beginning of the UNMIK administration exist in English, Albanian and Serbian." So I wouldent say that English is an official language of Kosovo since it is only offical for UNMIK. Litany 15:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure either. I am just following my own guideline on reverting any edits which have not been discussed (by new users and/or sockpuppets). As far as I know, Turkish used to be official but not sure what the situation is after 1999. Regards, E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 16:05, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The addition of turkish was done from an anonymous account, the addition of english was not very seriously I think. Until somebody shows otherwise, we will leave it at Albanian and Serbian. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 16:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Turkish was an official language in Kosovo until UNMIK administration was installed. Not sure about the official languages as of now. Will check that again. Not sure that Serbian will be an official language either, they are a minority of less than 6%, and in Macedonia Albanians do not get that even though they are around 20%, but can use it only in the cities where it is official. We'll see how that works. ilir_pz 13:50, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the USAID: "Because Kosovo is not a country, it does not have an official flag—residents often use that of Albania—or an official language. English is used for official business, and all traffic signs are in both Albanian and Serbian." Official documents are copied in local languages, but de jure none of them are official. TSO1D 14:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Can ayone find another official source that contradicts this one? TSO1D 14:48, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

The website of EU in Kosovo clearly states that "The official languages in Kosovo are Albanian and Serbian. The majority of the population speaks Albanian. Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian are spoken by minorities. A very large number of people also speak English, German and other European languages. English is the official language of UNMIK. The texts of legislation created in Kosovo since the beginning of the UNMIK administration exist in English, Albanian and Serbian." Regards, ilir_pz 14:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I also saw this page, so I agree that for now the two languages can be kept as official. This matter is really bizarre though. I cannot understand how various official sources can contradict each other on this point. This should not be a subjective matter, either the languages have been declared official or not. TSO1D 15:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

According to the so-called Constitutional Framework, paragraph 9.3.17: Meetings of the Government and its bodies shall be conducted in both the Albanian and Serbian languages. All official documents of the Government shall be printed in both the Albanian and Serbian languages. [7] So I suppose its Albanian and Serbian. According to this website: [8], Turkish was considered but not approved as an official language. And English is the official language of UNMIK.[9] Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 18:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok that makes sense. TSO1D 19:15, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not fair

User:Ferick keeps removing the sentence that describes the Pro-Serbian site listed at the bottom of the page as "with the aim of reminding the foreign public once more of the gravity of situation of human rights facing Serbian and other non-Albanian populations in Kosovo-Metohija.", which is simply what the site is doing.

May I remind everyone that every single Pro-Albanian link has an explination of what it's about and it is not fair to let an Albanian, Ferick, delete sentences that describe Pro-Serbian sites, especially when they are harmless like this one. I rather think the descriptions of the Pro-Albanian links are very inflamatory, like "Save Kosova", and everyone knows it's Kosovo in English, and not Kosova which is in Albanian (Imagine if someone wrote Kosovo in Serbian, imagine what the Albanian users would do...), or maybe "American Council for Kosovo, increasing the awareness of the recognition of Kosovo's independence in the American society.", which suggests that Kosovo is already independent and what is left is for it to be recognized, and that is also inflamatory. But I'll stop here, because I don't care much about how the Pro-Albanian links are described, and I would appreciate the same amount of respect when regarding the Pro-Serbian links. Please don't erase descriptions. --serbiana - talk 00:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Again, without discussing like I have, Ferick erased the sentence describing the Pro-Serbian link, he even wrote "Staying on gurad against Serb vandalism.", which I find extremely nationalistic, considering that the sentence I added is clearly harmless. I will not revert, but rather allow others to give opinion, and I ask Ferick to explain his actions. --serbiana - talk 04:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Dear Bormalagurski, first of all I must say I appreciate it a lot that you came here to discuss this matter. Indeed a lot links contain descriptions, but all of these are neutral descriptions. When you say remininding of the gravity of the human right... you also make a statement there, rather than give a neutral description. I added a more neutral description to the website link, namely focusses on the human rights situation of Serbian and other non-Albanian populations in Kosovo-Metohija.. I hope that is ok with both of you. Regards, Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:07, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

With regard to the Albanian links, Save Kosova is the name of the website, not a description, Free Kosovo is a translation of the name of a website and I agreed with you on the description of the American Counsil on Kosovo, so I also changed that one. The rest is harmless in my view. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

We shouldn't be devising our own descriptions of external websites - if you put in a link to google.com would you call it "Really big search engine"? The convention is to use the website's own name for itself, in this case "Serbian Government for Kosovo and Metohija" (as appears in the title bar of the English version). -- ChrisO 07:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I must say that I am very surprised by this comment. A lot of wikipedia articles contain descriptions of the websites under External Links, see for example USA. Also, why did you then remove only that one description, an not all descriptions in that section? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:55, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I felt that the website's self-description was enough - it's the official Serbian government website on Kosovo, just as it says in the description. As for the others, I'm very pushed for time right now! I'll go through them later today. -- ChrisO 08:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Although I do understand that you are busy, selectively removing a description of a Serbian site, but not of the Albanian sites is potentially very inflammatory here. I suggest we go through all of them on the talk page here and then change them all at once. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:09, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

BTW: The convention is not to use only the name of the website. The Wikipedia Manual of style says this on External links: External links should summarize the website's contents, and indicate why the website is relevant to the article. (See:WP:SG#External links). So I am not in favor of simply removing all descriptions. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 08:24, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I support Cpt. Morgan and his views. --serbiana - talk 18:36, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

What Ilir and Ferick fail to see...

Is that Wikipedia is not truth, but verifiability. --HolyRomanEmperor 16:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It's interesting you say verifiability. A lot of Serbs have verified that they were the victims of 1999 wars. If you ask, they will produce a ton load of documents proving that they were the victims. It's also interesting to note that the Serb regime went out of its way to hide crimes, believing, I guess, that if the crimes were not verified, they didn't occur. Very interesting theory you have....Ferick 21:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

This is not a "Theory" (please refer to the article) of mine - I was simply quoting Wikipedia's policy. I must add, though, how strange is your reply. It seems as if you interpreted my answer as if I attacked something Albanian and you used the ol' saying Offense is the best defence... That was very needless, and will much more damage you, rather than me. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:34, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Let me ask you this, Ferick. Why would Serbia do anything about Kosovo if there was no reason to do so? Did they just not like Albanians, or did the Albanians organize a separatist organization bent on achieving secession from Serbia? Well, if you look at other countries that have separatist movements, you'll see that the government of the country at question would go to extreme lengths to stabilize the situation and stop the constant terrorist attacks. Thousands of Serbs were ethnically cleansed from Kosovo, you can't fake the documentation, it's there, and the Serb population of Kosovo confirms it. I think that you have to understand that us a crime is not verified, that doesn't mean it didn't happen, but you can't present it as a fact. Thats all. For example, Serbs were ethically cleansed from Kosovo, thats a fact. Serb forces cracked down on the KLA, a CIA-confirmed terrorist organization, thats a fact. Serb forces wanted to rid Kosovo of all Albanians? Well, maybe, who knows, but untill you find a signed document where President Milosevic wrote "kill 'em all", you can't really claim anything. But then you have Albanian guerilla leaders saying that Kosovo is for the Albanians, and similar things, so their aim is obvious. Belgrade only wanted Kosovo not to separate. Thats a fact. Ethnic cleansing organized from Belgrade is not. --serbiana - talk 22:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Woaaaa………you are wrong on every sentence. Literally every sentence has inaccurate information. Congrads on that achievement!

You ask: why would Serbia do anything about Kosovo if there was no reason to do so? Nobody ever said Serbia did things without a reason. Serbia had her reasons pretty well laid out: a total and complete elimination of any Albanian traces in Kosovo. When you come to thing about it, it wasn’t a stupid reason after all. They consider Kosovo the heart of their nation, yet the majority of people living there were not Serbs. So in way Kosovo was sticking out and destroying the Serbian dream and myth. The only way to solve the problem was killing and expelling. Various Serbian governments had tried every other way to subdue Kosovo Albanian for decades, so killing and expelling them was the last and only hope. You know what happen after that………..

I appreciate you understanding that Kosovo is the heart of Serbia. This is a good step, but you're still wrong on most of your points. Albanian separatism started long before Milosevic. In 1981. riots in Kosovo caused instability in the region and the stench of secessionism left it's toll on Yugoslavia. For 8 years after that, Serbs did nothing, they had to be quiet about the Albanian-organized protests, secessionism and even terrorism. It is the Albanians who started the ethnic conflict by asking for independence of an autonomous province, something which was illegal in every way, according to international law. The Albanians knew what Kosovo meant to Serbs, so they provoked, provoked and provoked. They didn't vote, pretending to be separate from Serbia, the police were biased toward Albanian crimes against Serbs, and the list goes on. Then, Milosevic took away it's autonomy, to preserve the peace. Serbian army forces targeted terrorists' homes, and in such operations, there were civilian deaths too. Also, I'd like to remind you how Albanians appeared in Kosovo in SFRY in the first place - Albania, supported by Fascist Italy, ethnically cleansed Kosovo of Serbs and settled Albanians in the province. Tito, however, decided not to kick the Albanians out of Kosovo after WWII, and even gave therm self-rule. But that was not enough for Albanians, they wanted an ethnically pure Kosovo.

Serbia tried to subdue Albanians way before the KLA ever came into being, so you are wrong on this one as well. And by the way, I haven’t seen any other instance in a world since WWII when a country has tried using physical elimination of entire people (by either killing or expelling them) as a political tool.

This is a lie. There is no way that Serbia could've tried to subdue Albanians before 1990 (around when the KLA was formed), because the police force was Albanian, and Serbia couldn't send the Yugoslav Army to Kosovo. Not a single Albanian was ethnically cleansed from Kosovo by Serb forces. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Thousands of Serbs were ethnically cleansed? How about this: Million Albanians were ethnically cleansed? How does that sound to you, equal deeds? There is no doubt that some Serbs were cleansed from Kosovo, but about 60-80% of them left Kosovo way before anybody could even tell them to leave. They left together with Serb forces, you know. I say this because I was there and I saw them. Did they have good reason to leave? You bet! They were smart enough to realize that people are going to seek revenge from them. By the way, they are all welcomed back anytime to live in their properties.

As I've said, more Albanians fled Kosovo in 1999, during the NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, then 1990-1999, when Serbia was comitting the alleged "ethnic cleansing". When Serb forces cracked down on the terrorist KLA, Albanians fled to Albania, because their dream of a Greater Albania was crumbling in front of their eyes. The "million" digit is a fairy tale, it's just funny. Now, your claims of Serbs being welcome in Kosovo is just an arrogant lie, and everyday stoning of busses with Serbs in them, and a murder there and then prove my claim. Also, the Unrest in 2004., the burning of 15th Century Orthodox Monasteries and entire Serbian communities show how extremist Albanians in Kosovo can be. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

KLA, a CIA-confirmed terrorist organization? Baloney (another words, you are factually wrong….again?)

CIA has confirmed that the KLA is a terrorist organization and it is. Go to the CIA website. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Serb forces wanted to rid Kosovo of all Albanians? I think for most of the world the camps in Albania and Macedonia were enough evidence. NATO didn’t intervene just for the heck of it, did they? But I digress, you are right we will never see a piece of paper signed by Milosevic showing that he ordered the total elimination of Albanians. So you won on this one…………. Well, in a way. Here is something new to you: Actions speak more than words!

NATO intervened in 1999. not to help Kosovo become independent, but to get rid of their old weapons and try out their stealth technology. They also wanted troops in the Balkans to control the region. I think we all know how much we can trust the US's motives (Ahm, Iraq.. WMD?), and I'm sure the US didn't do this for the "poor Albanians", because Kosovo would be independent today if that were so (the US always gets what it wants). Did you know that "Actions speak more than words!" was a Nazi slogan? Here's something new to you. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Albanian guerilla leaders saying that Kosovo is only for the Albanians? Baloney (Another made up fact, incidentally not verifiable).

You speak Albanian, you should know. You probably listened (and worship) people like Hashim Thachi and similar terrorists, and I'm surprised you didn't hear the part about Kosovo being for the Albanians, ONLY for the Albanians. Or maybe you didn't want to hear that. --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing organized from Belgrade is not a fact? Insane and very much false statement! Go to www.google.com and type ethic cleansing (don’t even type Kosovo or Serbia) and see for yourself.

Well, I have a website, and I'm sure Albanians have even more websites, and I'm also sure there are international websites that attach Albanian writings on them. So... I could write that Kosovo is a part of China, and then we would have to write "some claim Kosovo is a part of China..." :-) --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Facts are out there, around the corner, in front of you. They are calling your name. Help yourself and look at them, even once, and truth shall set you free! Sincerely yours, Ferick.

Ferick 03:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I say the same to you. Sincerely yours, --serbiana - talk 04:29, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Ohh boy, you have a very strange view of the world. How do you manage to live in the real world where you have to accept things as they are? Just curious…….Ferick 15:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

People, just a reminder that talk pages are there to discuss the Wikipedia articles, they are not a chatboard to discuss political opinions. See Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 19:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I completely agree. I find this ongoing argument quite tedious to follow. You are not going to convince each other, obviously. E Asterion ^{u talking to me?} 00:14, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder, I was just disproving Ferick's lies, but I will stop now. He actually disproves himself if you read his messages carefully :-) --serbiana - talk 21:43, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

You still didn’t answer me: how do you manage to reconcile you fantasy world with the real one? Perhaps we can learn SOMETHING from you…………Ferick 23:16, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I will not dignify this with a response. --serbiana - talk 23:57, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Saying Milosevic's regime was repressive is a fact not an opinion

Most of the world has, by now, agreed that Milosevic's regime was repressive. So the word repressive is not a matter of personal opinion but a descriptive word that accurately describes a regime. I am surprised that, of all things out there, you have taken upon yourself to defend a Repressive Regime. Salon – Rage against the regime[10] US Congress [11] The Financial Times-Milosevic turns screw on news[12] US Office in Pristina- Kosovo,Irag and the values we share[13]

Contrary to your believe, the word repressive has been used by just about every media when describing Milosovics administration. It may pain you to learn this, but it’s a matter of fact not an opinion.Ferick 20:53, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you make yourself acquainted with Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. It does not matter whether prominent individuals and establishments called the police force repressive, you still cannot simply use that adjective directly as fact, as there are others who disagree with it. For instance, you can say the police force which has been described as repressive by .., ..., and ...., but you cannot simply state that the police force is repressive. TSO1D 21:11, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes I can...and I just did. You can open your own website if you like to defend repressive regimes. And by the way, it’s not up to you to interpret what is NPOV and what is not.Ferick 21:38, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Official policy states: "We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the non-bias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but don't assert opinions themselves." I don't see how you can interpret this in any other way. The idea that the Serbian police force was repressive is just that an opinion, no matter how firmly you or even the majority of people might believe it. TSO1D 21:50, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

---

I am inclined on adding here: saying that Miloshevich's rule was a dictatorship is slightly, pretty much a fact - and that his reign was authoritarion would be true as well. However, one must understand that although Slobodan Miloshevich was/is a hero to many, he did use means of oppression to stay in power (nothing nationalist/racist/ethnic, only as a means for power). THAT is a fact. Ever heard of the Otpor Serbian resistence? For a good understanding, compare him with the current authoritarian dictatorial Premier of Montenegro, Milo Đukanović - a well-known War Criminal, Smuggler, Vote-buyer, Propaganda spreader, Abusive-means politicians and Mafia Boss. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:40, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

A very interesting thing to be added...

...is that User:Ferick admittedly and openly refused to follow/read Wikipedia's policies. I know that they are not a necessity - but it is to my opinion that they should be honored, or at least read for Wikipedia's sake.

==Hello==

Could you please read up (if you haven't already) WP:POV and WP:NPOV? --HolyRomanEmperor 16:03, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

No,thank you very much!Ferick 18:28, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

...posted from User_talk:Ferick#Hello. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:50, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

This is expected. Ferick doesn't respect anyone or anything, and should be banned forever. He who denies to go by the rules is not welcome at Wikipedia. --serbiana - talk 16:30, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

To the above user: enough with your ranting!Ferick 16:54, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

There are two users above... Wow... --serbiana - talk 22:28, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess you need clarification: I was talking about the above teenager. Please grow up and don’t waste other people’s time. When you grow up, perhaps we can discuss issues as two adults. Right now the debate is very lopsided: between an adult and an emotional adolescent. I found a good side where you can put your two cents: Teen Advice.org [14]. Talk to you in a few years.Ferick 18:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Now who's the immature person here... --serbiana - talk 20:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarification of word 'province'?

Not to open up pandora's box, but is there any chance a small note could be inserted that the word province is not being used in the common sense? At first glance it could appear to some readers (e.g. me) that Kosovo and Vojvodina are the only two administrative divisions, rather than the only two of a special type. Maybe a reference to "Administrative subdivisions" on the Serbia page. Just to make it clear that Serbia has districts as well. echalon

The correct way to put it would be "Kosovo is one of two autonomous provinces of Serbia...", but the Albanian loby wouldn't like that... --serbiana - talk 23:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the implications of changin the current text, the present version is indeed confusing. When I first read it, I could not fully deduce its meaning either. I will be bold and change it and if opposition arises, we can seek a compromise later. TSO1D 02:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Nice, I wouldn't have the guts to change it, or else Ferick, Ilir and the Albanian gang would be on my back. This is a step towards neutrality and resistance towards the Albanian loby. Good job, TSO1D! --serbiana - talk 02:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I did not mean to take a side in this dispute, I just wanted to make the text more comprehensible. I don't believe that my change had an inherent POV, and I don't believe either side will advocate reverting to the previous version which was clearly misleading. TSO1D 17:19, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no reason for the above reason to pretend as if he is neutral. You have proven yourself many times to be very biased and the above congratulations from the Serbian user is just another example. Neither version is correct. The sentence that describes the situation correctly is the current one.Ferick 18:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't need to pretend that I am neutral, however I don't believe you are in any position to assess neutrality. You have a strong bias as do other users on both sides. I came here with few preconceptions and ready to try to improve the article. As I said if you do not like my edits you can explain your disagreement and we can try to find a solution. For example, in this case you reverted my edit and completly removed the part of Kosovo being one of two autonomous provinces of Serbia. I assume that is because you don't like the fact that Kosovo is de jure part of Serbia, but there's no need to change the text so drastically. As for the UN administration, the following paragraph explains it fully. TSO1D 18:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I used this as an experiment. Adding autonomous to the article changes very little, to be honest, but I made it sound like it was a huge step towards neutrality, which it isn't really that much. Well, I congradulated TSO1D, and as soon as I did, Ferick started calling TSO1D biased because of the "congratulations from the Serbian user". This shows how nationalistic Ferick is, and how, to him, every Serb is biased. Good job Ferick, you proved my point. --serbiana - talk 19:21, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I cannot see how adding the word "autonomous" in any way changes the meaning of the sentence other than to make it more clear. If nothing else, can a word other than "province" be agreed upon? Maybe the word in the original language (of whatever document it derives from) rather than this unclear translation? --Echalon 02:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not about that, the change did make it more clear, but it was not a dramatic step towards neutrality as I've described it. I wanted to see if Ferick will turn against TSO1D the moment I congradulate him for doing something that I made Ferick to believe to be pro-Serb, but was actually exactly how you described it. The experiment worked, Ferick is extremely anti-Serb. He clearly hates ALL Serbs, and some might call him a nationalistic racist. --serbiana - talk 03:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

My own opinion is that the word "autonomous" is definitely justified, as it's how Kosovo is formally defined in terms of its legal status as a province of Serbia (which of course is recognised by every UN member, as far as I know, including Albania). However, we do need to be careful that we make clear that it's only a de jure status and that de facto Kosovo is not now administered as a sub-unit of Serbia. -- ChrisO 08:28, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yet, you continue to lump Kosovo with Vojvodina.Ferick 16:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Because, as all of our sources say, Kosovo has the same legal status as Vojvodina, i.e. it's an autonomous province of Serbia. The difference is in its administrative status as a UN-run territory. -- ChrisO 19:31, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Rejecting Reality

I like to ask all of you, what is wrong with the following wording? This describes the situation as it is. It says nothing about Kosovo being independent. On the other side it does say it is a UN run province, de jure part of Yugoslavia ( now Serbia). Help me out here! Does anybody here know something different from what is described below? If so, please enlighten us!

Kosovo (Albanian: Kosovë/Kosova, Serbian: Косово и Метохија/Kosovo i Metohija) is located in the south-east Europe, bordering Albania, Macedonia and Montenegro. The mountainous province's capital and largest city is Priština. Kosovo has a population of around two million people, predominately ethnic Albanians, with smaller populations of Serbs and other ethnic groups. The province is the subject of a long-running political and territorial dispute between the Serbian (and previously, the Yugoslav) government and Kosovo's Albanian population. Although by the UN Security Resolution 1244, it is de jure and regarded as a part of Former Yugoslavia (now Serbia), since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations with little direct involvement from the Serbian government. Kosovo is governed by the UN Interim Administrative Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK) and the locally elected Provisional Institutions of Self-Government, with security maintained by the NATO-led Kosovo Force (KFOR) and Kosovo Police Service. Negotiations began in 2006 to determine the final status of Kosovo.Ferick 18:30, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the fact that the first sentence does not refer to the province's legal status and completly ingores Serbia. If it were independent you would not say that Kosovo borders the other countries, but exclude Serbia, but that is not even the case because formally it is part of Serbia, so it makes sense to say that in the beginning. The CIA factbook for instance states that Kosovo is an autnomous province of Serbia albeit nominally. So I insist that we keep that in the first sentence. Regardless of POV the former version is simply confusing. TSO1D 18:54, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick and Ilir are consistently ignoring a key requirement: we report what our sources tell us. Our sources tell us, literally without any exceptions, that Kosovo is formally an autonomous province of Serbia under UN administration. See the list under #What other encyclopedias say above, and as TSO1D says, the CIA World Factbook too. Ferick and Ilir have consistently failed to provide any reference that says that Kosovo isn't de jure part of Serbia. Their claims that it isn't are pure original research and simply aren't admissible in the article. -- ChrisO 19:43, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

The comments above show once again that the above users are trying to push their own personal opinion. Who is arguing that Kosovo is not de jure part of Yugoslavia (now Serbia)? The above paragraph clearly states that, but once again you don’t care what the paragraph says: if it is not YOUR PREFERED version, then it must be wrong.

The paragraph is factually correct, and no one cares if the version is to your liking or not. Wikipedia was not developed to please neither of you. As long as there is no objection to the facts of the paragraph, I will insist on this version.Ferick 21:39, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, I don't believe the dispute that you have with Chris is about the content, but rather the style. I have to say that the version you have sounds a bit awkward. That could of course be corrected, but I don't see the need at the moment the need to change the text. TSO1D 22:02, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, there is a content issue - three distinct problems:

1) Ferick's version claims that Kosovo's status as part of Serbia is "by the UN Security Resolution 1244". This is simply wrong: it's recognised as part of Serbia because that's what was set out in the Helsinki Final Act of 1975. The resolution states this explicitly: "Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2."

2) Ferick keeps removing the phrase "internationally recognised". This is a very important point. No country in the world recognises Kosovo as anything other than a de jure province of Serbia - not even Albania.

3) Ferick claims that Kosovo is "part of Former Yugoslavia (now Serbia)". That's misleading; it's part of Serbia, which was part of the former Yugoslavia. Kosovo was a subordinate unit of a Yugoslav republic, not a republic in its own right as Ferick's wording implies.

Ferick and Ilir have consistently tried to push the POV that (a) Kosovo was part of Yugoslavia, not Serbia; (b) it's not part of Serbia now; and (c) it's only regarded as part of Serbia because of a UN Security Council resolution seven years ago. We've already been through this at length in Talk:Kosovo/Intro changes proposal. Neither Ferick nor Ilir have provided any evidence to support their claims and they've consistently failed to explain why they are right and every other source - encyclopedias, books, newspaper reports - is wrong. Without sources, their claims are simply unverifiable and constitute original research, which are disallowed under two of Wikipedia's fundamental policies, WP:V and WP:NOR. -- ChrisO 22:47, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

1. This is getting ridicules. An amateur “Balkan Historian” wants to tell the world that legal judgments about European countries can only be drawn from the Helsinki Act, agreed upon 30 years ago. This just shows that you have no clue what you are talking about, and makes people even more determined to oppose you views. According to you, countries such as Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia should not exist because the Helsinki Act reaffirmed the sovereignty of Yugoslavia. Right? That’s one of the dumbest arguments I have ever seen. In addition to that, the Helsinki Act does not even mention Serbia. Even more, any act agreed upon by nations after the Helsinki Act and which contradicts the Helsinki Act, takes precedence. That’s normal International practice, and as a matter of fact it’s a practice that every nation uses when laws are changed. Just to remind you, laws are not written in stone to never change, and your proffered law does not take presence over the latest law. So contrary to your believe, UN Security Resolution 1244 is indeed the latest law about the legal status of Kosovo, and therefore takes precedence over any other law that may have been passed in Belgrade or Helsinki in the last century. Incidentally, there is only one other person in the world that uses the Helsinki Act to bolster Serbia’s argument over Kosovo: Kostunica. How coincidental that you agree with him!

OK, I'm not going to do your homework for you this time. You're making claims without bothering to provide any evidence, as usual, so here's a challenge for you: find a source that says that the Helsinki Final Act no longer applies. For bonus points, find an explanation of why UNSCR 1244 explicitly references the Helsinki Final Act. I have sources and explanations for why the HFA does apply, but I'd like to know what your source is for claiming that it doesn't. -- ChrisO 20:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

2. This is RUBBISH- I have never claimed that Kosovo is not de jure part of Yugoslavia (now Serbia). This is a big time lie in your part.

You constantly make that claim implicitly by deleting any reference to Kosovo's status as a sub-unit of Serbia. All of our sources (see above) say that it is. Systematically omitting a verified fact is a rather underhanded equivalent to making an explicit claim that the fact is wrong. -- ChrisO 20:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I noticed in several other occasions that you argue points that nobody disagrees with just to make a point and make the opposing party looks as if they disagree with trivial facts- essentially make them look disruptive. Somebody should be made aware of this- we do not need ROUGE ADMINISTRATORS in Wikipedia.

Yes we do! There's even a page on ROUGE ADMINISTRATORS and a logo for them (see right). -- ChrisO 20:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

3. Per Resolution 1244, Kosovo is part of Serbia and Montenegro which is now inherited by Serbia. Never said Kosovo was a republic, nor implied it. This is part of your smear campaign against users you disagree with. Kosovo was a Constituent part of Yugoslavia per 1974 Constitution with the same voting rights as all other republics. I think Vojvodina did not have this right [15]. Regardless of what Kosovo was in the last century, that’s part of History. What we are arguing here is the current status of Kosovo. Even if you want to go with the Serb Law, Kosovo cannot be said to be an autonomous province of Serbia because that autonomy was revoked by Serbia and it has never been restored by the Serb Parliament.

No, Vojvodina had an equivalent status and voting rights - see the Vojvodina article. Both provinces were sub-units of Serbia, with equivalent voting rights to the republics but not with equivalent political or legal status. As for what happened in 1989, Kosovo's autonomy wasn't abolished outright but was greatly reduced and its parliament and government were suspended, not abolished. Milosevic abolished the practice of Kosovo's autonomy but not its principle. He replaced Kosovo's Albanian-led government with his own cronies (as he did with Vojvodina too) and so took control of their votes on the federal presidency, which of course was his objective all along. The ICTY's indictment of Milosevic spells out what happened to Kosovo's autonomy - read paragraphs 79 onwards. --

ChrisO 20:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Breaking news. Accroding to the state department :"Serbia abolished the political autonomy of Kosovo in 1990"[[16]]Ferick 14:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

4. More rubbish here- please don’t copy and paste your previous arguments many times over.Ferick 17:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The autonomy wasn't "revoked" as often reported in the media. Please read the conversation here for proof of this. Phildav76 17:36, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes it was-all but in name.Read the 1974 Constitution and then 1990, and you will see.Ferick 19:42, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

But not in legal form. That's the whole point. Kosovo is de jure an autonomous province of Serbia which the United Nations is administering. -- ChrisO 20:45, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Please don’t cherry pick which arguments you respond to. There is no reason for me to respond for as long as you keep doing this.Ferick 05:25, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Trimming the history

Over the next few days, I plan to make some major changes to the history section of the article and to the related History of Kosovo article. This article's history section is way too long and detailed for what's supposed to be an overview article; I intend to replace it with a much shorter and simplified version. As for History of Kosovo, it will probably be necessary to rewrite it from scratch. It's almost entirely unreferenced and very badly written in places. Unfortunately the lack of references will most likely mean that much of the content will have to be dumped until people can find proper sources for the assertions it makes. -- ChrisO 22:56, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Will it be more of what we seen from you so far, or a sincere attempt to make the article better? We shall see……….Ferick 17:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, I noticed you've been causing a lot of trouble. If you love Kosova, go there and help the 50% of the population that don't have a job and are starving to death. Stop wasting your time here, please. --KOCOBO 21:07, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Kosovo and Metohija

Why is this article not called Kosovo and Metohija or Kosovo and Metohia? Thats the official name of the province. --Svetislav Jovanović 21:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Who told you that? Milosevic?Ferick 23:04, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know Milosevic. --Svetislav Jovanović 01:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. are all the users jokers like you, or is there anyone that will take my argument seriously? --Svetislav Jovanović 01:24, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I am sure people will take you seriously when you bring up a serious argument.Ferick 03:18, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

The CIA article on Serbia defines the administrative province of Kosovo as Kosovo and Metohia. Is the CIA not a good enough source? --Svetislav Jovanović 03:38, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

This was discussed a long time ago (it's in the archives somewhere). On the English Wikipedia, we use the English version and spelling for non-English names. Hence Koln is Cologne, Timor-Leste is East Timor, etc. The official local names are noted in the relevant articles but are not used for the article titles themselves. A similar principle applies to Kosovo, as neither "Kosovo and Metohija" nor "Kosova" are widely used in English. See Wikipedia:Proper names#Place names for more guidance on this. If you look again at the CIA factbook, you'll see that it also follows this convention - it mentions "Metohia" once in a section which gives the official local names of administrative divisions, but everywhere else it uses "Kosovo" without the "-and Metohia" suffix. -- ChrisO 09:01, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Two further examples for Jovanović: the article on USA is at United States, not "United States of America" and the article on the UK is at United Kingdom, not "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". For article names we often shorten the official name if the shortened form is more common. —Gabbe 10:25, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining. I agree now. And thank you for taking my opinion seriously, I appreciate it. --Svetislav Jovanović 02:48, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

New Intro

Ferick, I don't understand the new version of the introduction that you are trying to introduce. You de-wikified several of the words for no apparent reason, but that is a minor change. But you removed the fact that there is another autonomous province in Serbia, why? Then you said that there is no direct Serbian involvement although Resolution 1244 does stipulate that "4) Confirms that after the withdrawal an agreed number of Yugoslav and Serb military and police personnel will be permitted to return to Kosovo to perform the functions in accordance with annex 2;" and always emphasizes Kosovo's autnomous status within Yugoslavia/Serbia. Then the part about internation recognition should not be removed. Although you might consider it redundant, it emphasizes the fact that the international community views Kosovo as a territorial unit of Serbia which is an important matter. TSO1D 14:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what de-wikication you are talking about. As I have said many times before, Vojvodina will have no place here whatsoever. There is no reason or logic for it. Vojvodina is part of Serbia, and you can make that assertion there. It’s a matter of personal opinion of yours and some others to keep Vojvodina here, but it will not happen. That’s all I have to say about that.

As to your second point about Resolution 1244, it does say that an agreed version of Serb forces will be allowed to return. So what? There has been no “agreed number” and they have not returned-therefore Serbia has zero-nada-influence over the running of Kosovo institutions. Just because it might happen in the future it doesn’t give you the right to say that it is happening now. This is an absurd argument. The article describes the current situation in Kosovo, not its future.

Your third argument about including “de-jure” and “internationally recognized” in the paragraph. Can you define de-jure for me? Of course it’s redundant in addition to being a preferred version of yours and some others here. Next time don’t revert the article and invite me to a discussion page if you have no legs to stand on. Thanks.Ferick 15:55, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

You said that Vojvodina is different from Kosovo because the former is a part of Serbia. I don't understand that argument. You yourself agree that Kosovo is part of Serbia, and it is an autonomous province of the second, thus it makes sense to include that information in the introduction. As for resolution 1244, you yourself cited that as an example proving that it strips Serbia over any direct control. I just showed you that the resolution does explicitly state that Kosovo will be an autonomous province within Serbia and it lists the duties of Serbia in aiding the process of restoring normalcy in the region. I agree that in reality this influence has been marginal, nevertheless, it is not completely absent. And as for de jure, I already explained that above. TSO1D 16:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh boy...Where did I say "Vojvodina is different from Kosovo because the former is a part of Serbia".? Nowhere- therefore your inability to understand the argument! All I said is that you can put Vojvodina all over the page in Serbia- Not here. See Missouri for example. Serbia has no influence over the running of Kosovo institutions-not marginal, a little bit, a tiny bit-but zero-null.Ferick 06:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I should add that de jure is in two senses. Domestically, the Serbian constitution defines Kosovo as part of Serbia; internationally, the Helsinki Final Act and USNCR 1244 both maintain the "territorial integrity" of all the former Yugoslav states. As for Serbia's involvement in Kosovo, I was under the impression that the Serbian government is still significantly involved in Serb-inhabited areas of Kosovo (especially the far north): "On the ground, Serbian areas of Kosovo still function as if they were part of Serbia, outside the framework of government established by UNMIK, in terms of courts, schools, health care, pensions, telecommunications and most importantly security forces." [17] Is this no lonegr the case? -- ChrisO 16:31, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Helsinki Act, as I have said before, says nothing about Serbia, or Kosovo or Vojvodina........We need some sources here that says nothing has happened in Europe since 1975 that contradicts the Helsinki Act. USNCR 1244 does not maintain the "territorial integrity" of all the former Yugoslav states and nor does Helsinki Act. If so, source please. Your source dos not say anything about Serbia’s involvement in the north- it merely says the north operates as it were part of Serbia, which is not the same (perhaps the north is emulating Serbia). In addition the source should be checked for verifiability because it says security forces in the north operate outside the framework of the government- a false assertion. Kosovo police with KFOR enforce Kosovo law everywhere in Kosovo, including the north.Ferick 06:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, do you have difficulty reading UNSCR 1244? "Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the other States of the region, as set out in the Helsinki Final Act and annex 2." The words are right there in the document. As the US State Department says, this "mandated that the territorial integrity of the FRY be provisionally preserved pending a future decision on Kosovo's political status". [18] -- ChrisO 08:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Again,cherry picking what you like to answer. But I ask again: we need some sources here that says nothing has happened in Europe since 1975 that contradicts the Helsinki Act. Can you bring Helsinki Act and anex 2 for everybody to see it? ThanksFerick 13:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, if one article is about "dog" then you should not write about "cat", right? This is article about Kosovo, not about Vojvodina or about Subdivisions of Serbia. What if Serbia for example have 10 provinces? You would mention all of them here in the preface part of the Kosovo article??? This is clear violation of the basic literary principle that if you have one subject you should not write about another in that article. Besides this, it is in fact 3 regions about what we speak here: Kosovo, Vojvodina, and Central Serbia, but if article is about Kosovo, why we should write about other two? I see no logic there. PANONIAN (talk) 02:11, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

First of all, Central Serbia is not a province, it is just the territory between the two provinces. Sencond of all, Kosovo has a de jure status that is the same as Vojvodina, but while the status functions de facto in Vojvodina, but not in Kosovo, it's practical to mention Vojvodina. Also, it's not as complicated as you present it, Serbia only has two provinces, mentioning the other in each of the two articles does little harm. And unlike dog and cat, Vojvodina and Kosovo are de jure the same, but de facto different, and it does no harm to mention that (if you don't mention it in one of these two articles, where will you mention it then?). --KOCOBO 02:18, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that if Serbia had 10 provinces it wouldn't be practical to mention them all (except perhaps in an infobox). But since it only has two such subdivisions I honestly don't understand the harm of mentioning one in an article about the other. Think of it as a convenience link for the user. There's no other mention of Vojvodina in the Kosovo article, even in the infobox. Incidentally, the current infobox is problematic too - if Kosovo is still part of Serbia this should be shown (compare the Vojvodina infobox). Right now it isn't. -- ChrisO 08:05, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, your personal opinion.Ferick 13:37, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no, status of Kosovo is NOT SAME as that of Vojvodina. Autonomous status of Vojvodina is defined by the Omnibus Law from 2002, while the autonomous status of Kosovo is defined by the 1244 resolution. Vojvodina and Kosovo have very different levels of autonomy, Vojvodina for example have no president, army, police, etc, as Kosovo have. Besides that, even the proposal made by Serbian government about future status of Kosovo has defined Kosovo as autonomous state within Serbia, not as autonomous province. Also, status of Kosovo is same de jure and de facto, because Serbian government accepted 1244 resolution and UNMIK administration, thus Kosovo is de jure autonomous province of Serbia only through UNMIK, not apart of UNMIK. PANONIAN (talk) 13:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point, but as you will see, this caries no weigh here because it contradicts a paradigm held by the other user.Ferick 03:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

While nothing is so good that it can't be improved, it feels like it wasn't long ago that we agreed on a compromise introduction. Osli73 12:20, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Illicit drugs

Can some of the admins please add this sentence (alter it in any way you see fit): "Kosovo is a transshipment point for Southwest Asian heroin moving to Western Europe on the Balkan route; the economy is vulnerable to money laundering" CIA reference, I think it's important to put in the article, but I don't dare to add it, because Ferick or Ilir will remove it... --KOCOBO 03:00, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Based on the evidence so far, I am quite confident you can gather the courage to do it.Ferick 06:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Will you remove it? --KOCOBO 06:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree, it's worth mentioning. I've added a paragraph on the black economy to put the drug issue in the broader context. BTW, I found an even better source for the drug trafficking issue, in the shape of the UNMIK Police themselves. -- ChrisO 07:50, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought so.Ferick 13:08, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

But I am removing it promptly for two reasons: original research: your source says nothing about "an extensive black economy has developed with significant organized crime and official corruption". That's your own conclusion. The source actually says: "Significant progress has been made in creating economic structures". Second reason: Your second source [UNMIK Police] is a 5 and a half year old press briefing (not a police report) being used to describe the current economic situation. Obviously this is ridicules and with no precedent and goes to show your highly biased view.Ferick 13:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Shut up, Ferick. --KOCOBO 20:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

You might wish to read this Sunday Times article from three months ago: [19]. -- ChrisO 21:34, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I did. You have found a very reliable source indeed. It’s almost laughable. Tom Walker-among other things, has written: "Kosovo goes to hell", "CIA aided Kosovo guerrilla army", "Islamic Terror in Kosovo" (this last one he witnessed!).These titles speak enough about this "journalist”. Above all, it fails on verifiability. As the UN Administrator says: the accusations are “entirely unwarranted". Your true skin and purpose is becoming more evident every day.Ferick 22:12, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Your comments on the reliability of an individual journalist are, of course, your own personal POV and have no relevance to this article. You've also made a very dishonest misquotation of the Sunday Times piece. It says: "On Friday the UN’s internal watchdog, the Office of Internal Oversight, accused Jessen-Petersen of turning a blind eye to widespread fraud at Pristina airport. He protested that the accusation was 'entirely unwarranted'." Note that there's absolutely no refutation of the wider concerns about the black economy. The fact that it exists in the first place isn't disputed by anyone with any credibility. As for your final comments, no personal attacks. You're heading for a block if you continue in that vein. -- ChrisO 22:24, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Then provide a reliable source. There is a difference between "concerns about the black economy" and the concrete conclusion you are are comming up with. Your main goal here appears to be: push your biased views using unverifiable and unreliable sources, dated data and mixing it up with your unsubstantiated conclusions. Not a recipe for success! I have every intention of amending your edits ( if you don't do so).Ferick 03:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

De Jure

For God's sake, I like to ask everybody to answer this question: in your reading about Kosovo, in which phrase have you come across most often:

1.Although de jure part of Serbia, since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations

2.Although it is de jure a territorial sub-unit of Serbia and internationally recognised as such, since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations

I have never seen the second one. If one has, please provide source-I like to see it.Ferick 14:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope you wouldn't find those two exact sentences anywhere, otherwise it would be plagiarism, but this is certainly not a factual dispute, just one about wording. I prefer the second version for the reason that saying that Kosovo is de-jure part of Serbia simply means that in principle Kosovo is part of Serbia, but the second part emphasizes that the entire international community views it as a territorial sub-unit of Serbia, eliminating the vagueness of the beginning. I am not enamoured with the wording, so if someone wants to change it again, I'm not going to revert. But Ferick reverted the entire page to his prefered version, instead of just removing the reference to Vojvodina, which more users agreed to. You also changed the de-jure part where more users declared themselves against your version, as well as adding the "no direct involvement by Serbia" which I believe is too categorical. TSO1D 15:21, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I did have objection to the Vojvodina reference as well as de jure confusion. And no, it's nor plagiarism-it's called a common expression.Ferick 16:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

If a fact is common knowledge, then it will obviously be found in multiple sources, but using the exact same sentence as in another source (i.e. a word by word copy) would be considered plaagiarism. TSO1D 17:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

In English there is a difference between a) common expression and b) common knowledge. Saying United States is a Democratic Republic is not considered plagiarism even if this same expression is found in 1000 other articles. The fact is that the U.S is a republic and this is the clearest way to say it in English.Ferick 19:09, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

About the no Serbian involvement: "The rest of Kosovo's Serbian enclaves are run by the UN, but in reality, the Serbian Government retains considerable control over local services." from the BBC. Thus the Serbian government actually manifests real influence over the areas, it is not as if the local Serbs just emulate Serbia. And add to this the numerous, albeit small areas where Serbia has been allowed to act in Kosovo, I would say the "no involvement" statemetn would definitly not be justified. TSO1D 15:47, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Legally and otherwise, Serbia has no control over the running of Legal Institutions in Kosovo. Are they involved in running illegal organization in Kosovo? No doubt about it.Ferick 16:55, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

---

Ferick, I looked over you version again, and I see that you made more changes than I previously thought. The minor changes are not important (although I don't understand why the languages are dewikified, maybe that was added later). You removed a paragraph abouot the economy that was adequatly sourced, though once again that might have been added later, in any case I don't know its history. But then some of the interwikis are also messed up, look at the Bulgarian one. And I think you didn't close the ref tag, so that all of this history section got moved to the footnotes. Please do not revert but rather look at what you want to insert, and do it manually (ideally discussing the more controversial changes beforehand). TSO1D 21:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Does the 3RR rule apply to Serb users?

I was wondering if there is a provision in wikipedia that exempts Serb users[[20]] from the 3RR rule. Any help would be highly appreciated. Ferick 20:16, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course there isn't, but by my count KOCOBO has reverted three edits in the last 24 hours. This is within the 3RR limit. -- ChrisO 20:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I must have misunderstood the rule then-I thought 3RR meant 3 edits gets you blocked.Ferick 21:29, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

See WP:3RR. —Gabbe 21:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Questions for Ferick

1. Why are you deleting the links to other articles (namely Albanian, Serbian, Serbia, Vojvodina, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro and Albanians) in the first paragraph? What possible problem could there be with inter-article links?

2) Why are you deleting Category:Disputed territories when it's universally acknowledged that Kosovo is, in fact, a disputed territory?

3) Why are you deleting interwiki links to the Albanian, Alsatian, Bulgarian, Latin, Polish and Slovenian versions of this article?

You haven't provided any explanation of your reverts other than that they're to "remove unreliable & unverifiable claims/sources" (which plainly can't apply to inter-article links, interwiki links or the category). What is your explanation for the three points above? -- ChrisO 07:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no clue what you are talking about.Ferick 12:56, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Part of the problem here seems to be the way people are reverting. I'd suggest that people (on all "sides") please just change the individual points that they think are wrong. This way, we may gradually stop "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" and losing innocent improvements in the process of lazily reverting. – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 13:00, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

That is indeed the problem. Ferick, I made the same observation one paragraph above, but I believe you didn't see it. Your version has a number of flaws caused by lack of links, an open ref tag, wrong interwikis, and others. Once again I urge you not to revert to that old version as it has some incorrect changes, whether because you accidentally introduced them while editing, or because they existed previously. If you have some changes add them manually, and as always if they are controversial, please explain them beforehand. TSO1D 14:12, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, please see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kosovo&diff=63368417&oldid=63331772 to see all the changes that you made with your reversion. If you don't know what you're changing when you revert, that's a very good reason for not reverting in the first place. -- ChrisO 07:27, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Map

Proposed map of Kosovo in Serbia

Hello, since this is a sensitive issue for all sides, I will not make changes myself. However, I propose we put this map from Commons in the article, if not at the top, then somewhere in the middle or bottom. It shows Kosovo's position in Serbia, and the municipalities that are in it. What do others think about this? --GOD OF JUSTICE 01:08, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this picture should replace the current infobox map, however it can be a useful complement to the history section. Perhaps it could be added to the "Kosovo in the Second Yugoslavia" section, although the names of all localities are only in Serbian. TSO1D 02:17, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the names are that important, the purpose of the map is to show the location in Serbia. My proposal would be to put it next to the blue map at the top, so as to show the position of Kosovo in Serbia, and next to it, Kosovo as a separate province. Plan B would be to place that map lower in the article, because at the moment there is not map showing Kosovo's location in Serbia, and this image is an accurate represantation of that. Do you agree? --GOD OF JUSTICE 02:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, putting it on top would make some users very unhappy, I have noticed this after looking at the history of the article. Better not to start a conflict, maybe the map should just not be in the article for the time being. I see that there's been a lot of problems over this issue in the past, better not to open Pandora's box if it's not neccessary. --GOD OF JUSTICE 03:44, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we need a map showing Kosovo's position within Serbia, but I don't think this is the ideal map to use - it's too detailed for our purposes. There's no point in showing all the municipalities outside Kosovo, for a start. Also, all the place names are in Serbian Cyrillic, which is problematic both alphabetically (the map shows no Latin transliterations) and politically (no Albanian names are given either). Instead, I suggest that we use a large-scale locator map showing where Kosovo is plus a more detailed map of the province's political boundaries, giving both both Serbian and Albanian municipality names in the Latin alphabet. What do you think of the one on the right as a general locator map? -- ChrisO 07:20, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This looks like a good map to me, ChrisO, I suggest you just put it in and we'll see what happens (unfortunately). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The principle is OK, but the colors are making too big of a contrast (hurts my eyes :)), I've made a map that resembles some of the more popular maps in this encyclopedia, like the England and Scotland articles. Below it, I propose this next map I am showing you, which shows Kosovo's position within Serbia, with no municipality names or anything like that. The municipality names map should go down to the section called "Subdivisions". As I've seen on Wikipedia, the purpose of the top map of any article is to show location, and nothing else (which is why I changed my opinion about the first photo I proposed), so maybe the next map I'm proposing should go below, like in the other more popular articles. What do others think? --GOD OF JUSTICE 18:33, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I like the position-within-Serbia map but I really don't like your proposed European locator map - the colours are far too indistinct (dark green and slightly lighter green?). I deliberately chose red and green as high-contrast colours. Kosovo is a small entity in what's a fairly small country, so it won't occupy many pixels on the map - it needs to be very visible if it's going to show up clearly on that scale. -- ChrisO 19:37, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

In accessibility terms, red and green are a disaster for (certain types of...) colour-blind people. We should go for excellent contrast, not two bright colours. How about increasing the contrast in the second version, but sticking with just greens? – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 19:42, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Chris, I'm glad you like the second map I proposed, and I appreciate your honesty. Kieran, I aggree that making the contrast bigger is a better idea, maybe the colors should be the same as in the other map that Chris likes. Plus make the light green even lighter and dark green even darker to make it more distinct, without hurting my eyes ;) What do you think? --GOD OF JUSTICE 19:46, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the "Kosovo in Serbia" map has sufficient contrast and uses relatively neutral colors. The new "Kosovo in Europe" map also is the best version in my view. TSO1D 23:47, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with both too - good work! -- ChrisO 07:20, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Please restore Kosovo map. There is no reason to remove it. Ferick 20:12, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It's redundant - we already have a very detailed map immediately below the contents box. What we lacked was a locator map, which we now have thanks to Bože pravde. See Catalonia for a comparable infobox. -- ChrisO 21:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Restore map or I will do so myself. Your reasoning is pathetic. Ferick 22:16, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

So why do we need two maps of Kosovo? -- ChrisO 22:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, there are three maps right now-so I don't understand what you are talking about. The arguments is not how many maps,but which maps.22:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

External links

Its good to see this article has improved over the last period of time. There is one thing that is still really bugging me here, though. The external links section contains a pro-serbian and a pro-albanian section. Many of those sources are in Serbian or Albanian, so of little use to English Wikipedia users, the headings (pro-....) are inflammatory and the sources (as evidenced by their grouping in pro-.... sections) are probably not neutral or independent. My first hunch is to simply delete both sections and all the links in them, but I considered that too drastic to do without discussion. Another options is to mix all the external links together, keeping only the ones linking to english language site. Any other ideas on how we could deal with this? Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 19:45, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It might be worth going through the criteria at Wikipedia:External links and identifying which links don't qualify for inclusion. I note that foreign-language links are listed on WP:EL under "Links normally to be avoided". -- ChrisO 19:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Intro poll

I've asked for the article to be protected temporarily while we resolve once and for all the issue of the intro. I believe we have an unofficial broad consensus on the wording (except for Ferick, of course), but to demonstrate that, I'm proposing the following poll. Please state whether you support or oppose the proposals set out below, and it would be useful if you could provide your reasons as well. I'll keep the poll open for a few days and post a notification to Wikipedia:Current surveys.

Note: the poll is now closed as of 28 July 2006. See #Thanks - poll now closed below.

There are two questions to be decided:

• Should the intro contain the line: "Kosovo has been under Serbian sovereignty since 1912"?

Propose and support. Wikipedia:Guide to layout#Lead section states that "the first paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail and the qualifications and nuances that follow." The fact that Kosovo is under Serbian sovereignty currently and has been so for nearly a century is critical to understanding the Serbian claim to the territory. This line serves as a very short preparatory statement for the history and politics sections of the article. -- ChrisO 07:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Support, that part of the history of Kosovo is so important in understanding the current situation, that it deserves to be mentioned in the introduction. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Support TSO1D 12:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC) That is a key part of any summary about Kosovo. TSO1D 12:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Qualified support: I support this, but I strongly feel that the mention of UN/NATO involvement should be in the first paragraph instead of, or in addition to, the second para. I find it impossible to vote on either of the current questions here, without a proviso that the paragraph must also mention the current situation; otherwise a casual reader of the introduction (admittedly a strangely ignorant one) might believe that the sovereignty/independence issue had been resolved. – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 12:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Kieran, the intro is based on the model adopted for other subnational entities - see Catalonia, Northern Ireland, etc. The usual approach is to give basic geographical and demographic information in the first para, followed by a brief political outline (broken out into one or two further paragraphs if necessary). The Kosovo intro follows this standard pattern exactly. Political stuff is certainly important but it's relatively transient info, whereas fundamental things like geographic location are never going to change. Hence the standard approach of putting the fundamental details first. I hope this makes sense - please feel free to raise it on my talk page or elsewhere on this page if any of it seems unclear or illogical to you. -- ChrisO 22:12, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Chris, thanks for the info. I like the idea of adopting standards across Wikipedia, but not at the cost of misrepresenting things (again, presuming we may be writing for an uninformed reader). The argument you put forward means that to be consistent we should oppose including "Kosovo has been under Serbian sovereignty since 1912" – because that's "political stuff" too. So, in all good faith, and taking your point on board, I continue to feel the current situation is significant enough, and non-transient enough (>5 years) to be a sensible inclusion. It's the same story with the second point, below; yes, in official terms, Kosova has very similar status to Vojvodina, but actually in reality, on the ground, it's different. And Wikipedia should tell people the facts. It's a fact that the two areas are... different. On an entirely trivial point, note also that "1912" is not a useful internal link... – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 23:00, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course, I Strongly Support this proposal. My reasons are similar to ChrisO, most people know there's a conflict going on in Kosovo, the reason why people come to an encyclopedia is to find out why. Now, the introduction of an article is the most important part, because it "hooks" the reader into reading on. I would also mention that Kosovo is the cradle of civilization of Serbs, it's Holy Land, what Jerusalem is for the Jews - Kosovo is for the Serbs. Things should be put into perspective, and only then can people understand the core of the dispute. --KOCOBO 22:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Support, I agree with KOCOBO, not only do I think that ChrisO's sentence must be in the intro, I think we should also add some information about why Serbs feel so passionate about Kosovo and what it represents. I think the 1389. battle of Kosovo should be mentioned in the intro, because it is basically the corner stone of Serbian history. No single nation in the world is so conscious of it's history, like the Serbs. --Svetislav Jovanović 22:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Oppose - history, not basic facts, so not for the intro. Pickleflyer 20:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC) THIS IS THE FIRST EDIT THIS USER HAS MADE --KOCOBO 21:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Strong Support, we are here to state facts, and this is what the sentence is doing. Furthermore, I also support the idea to mention the Battle of Kosovo of 1389 in the intro, it is an important part of the history of Kosovo and Metohija. --serbiana - talk 01:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Support, per TSO1D. --Evv 11:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Support, this is the truth. I agree with KOCOBO. This is an encyclopedia and must state the facts. The history should never be erased or restrained. That is very dangerous. Litany 18:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Should the intro state that Kosovo is "one of two autonomous provinces in the country (the other being Vojvodina, in northern Serbia)"?

No Kosovo is nt a province of Serbia but a UN Protectoriat betwen this two countris is a reguler Border and you need a Passaport to crose thate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.158.254.169 (talk • contribs) 07:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Propose and support. Ferick has provided no rationale for not including this statement other than stating repeatedly that it "will have no place here whatsoever". In understanding Kosovo's political status, it's important to note that while its administrative status is unique, it's one of two similarly constituted political entities (i.e. autonomous provinces within Serbia). -- ChrisO 07:07, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Neutral, although mentioning Vojvodina puts things in a broader perspective in my opinion, the province has little direct involvement with the Kosovo situation and the introduction is perfectly understandable without this sentence. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 07:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Support Although the two provinces might differ in their de facto situations, formally they are both autonomous republics, so it's logical to mention Vojvodina in order to produce context. TSO1D 12:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Qualified support: per my reasoning in the other question, above; I support this but only if the rest of the paragraph covers the other parts of the situation. – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 12:27, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I've struck-out my own vote because I'm increasingly suspiscious of this whole section and really don't want anything to do with it. Please consider this an abstention, not a conversion to opposition. – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 10:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Support - Officially, Kosovo has the same status as Vojvodina. Vojvodina has it's own government too, it's President, it's Prime Minister, just like Kosovo. I'd like to point to a similar example, not too far from Kosovo - Republika Srpska and the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina. In the Republika Srpska article, the intro mentions "the other entity being the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina", and in the Federation article, the intro mentions "the other entity is the Republika Srpska", which is logical, people want to know these things, and it hurts not to put them there. --KOCOBO 22:03, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Strong Support, as per ChrisO, Vojvodina officially has the same status as Kosovo. Since there is only one more autonomous province in Serbia, besides Kosovo, it does not harm to mention it there. --Svetislav Jovanović 22:13, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Support, If we had 20 other provinces of Serbia, I guess it wouldn't be practical to mention all of them, but since we only have Vojvodina and Kosovo-Metohija, its very practical to mention both, because it helps people to understand the status. --serbiana - talk 01:44, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Support, per TSO1D & KOCOBO: it's much clearer. Evv 19:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Support, since this is also true. It should be included since it is much more neutral not excluding any facts. Litany 18:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this Belgrads Parliament???? No body from you are neutrale. I have talk with most from you and I know thate you are not neutrale. In fact you are part of the serbian propaganda incitive wicht it hase stardet since one year in "Sava Center", — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.10.219 (talk • contribs) 24 July 2006 (UTC)

At first you must answer the quesqen : Is Kosovo part of Serbia or is Kosovo UN-Protectriat? All the time you are saying Kosovo is part of Serbia. The fact is that Kosovo is the only one UN-Protectoriat. Something what is potecdet belong only to the power wicht is protecten. Nevermaine how I say here is like in Belgrads parliament and in Belgrads parliament are not presante kosovars like in this article. Nobody from you dont know nothing about Kosovo and you are voting about the Kosovo? For all of you Kosovo is Black Box. At the end all of you are serbians and you get money from Serbian govermante. Arguments are easy you ate voting for the Kosovo in 1912 and you dont know in witch time they have taket unter control? You are voting for some sulution wicht was maked from Sovjet Union and was never acceted from the Kosovars. You are War makers beacose you are falsing the realty.

Cann somebody from you talle me a history of Kosovo since 1945. Wicht are the exte poit if since this time? You dont know hat was happen since 50 years and you wount to vote or omthing befor 100 years. This is my argument. You dont know how it cames to the War in 1999. You dont know how many times the serbs and kosovars have maked war since 1945? How I say this article is 100% serbian propagander witch is reasenting Kosovo as part of Serbia and every albanian user was bannet or his opinion was bloced from this usere administrator coorporation witch in fact is a part of the serbian propagander War to winn the media agains Kosovo indenpendent.

TUNG from Prishtina

upsss!!! In Kosovo wenn you wount to go in is writen "Welcommen Kosovo" this is the Realty and you cann vote and winn a media War witch was stardet in "Sava Center". I know is hard when you dont have monye for "New York Times" or BBC and you use this form to winn Media War. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.158.254.169 (talk • contribs) 07:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks - poll now closed

Thanks for everyone who contributed to this poll - we have a clear consensus in favour of both propositions. Reinoutr does have a good point though, so I've attempted to find a middle ground by modifying the infobox to match that of Vojvodina - showing the map of Kosovo next to some navigation links generated by the {{Serbia 2}} template. -- ChrisO 07:18, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Useless Poll

A poll determined by partisan reasons will have no bearing and no obligation. This is the second time you are doing this: Whenever you realize there are more active people that support your partisan view, you introduce a poll. This solves nothing- in two weeks the balance of power may change, and I can introduce the same poll and win it. When will the cycle stop? Polls do not determine facts. And for God’s sake stop protecting pages in which you are heavenly involved. What’s even worst, you protect pages when they are reverted to your preferred version. Very unethical behavior indeed! Ferick 20:24, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

You might want to read Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Polling is very much a standard way of obtaining community input on disputed issues. As for "determining facts", this poll deals with two facts which even you haven't disputed - i.e. that Serbia has had sovereignty since 1912 and that Kosovo is de jure one of two autonomous provinces in Serbia. Do you dispute these facts? -- ChrisO 21:05, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ferick,

1. This poll is not about what is fact, but about which facts should be included in the introductory paragraph.
2. The poll is not designed to obtain consensus, but to get an idea of what is the prevailing view, therefore it will run for a few weeks and independent editors are encouraged to vote.
3. Currently, the Kosovo article is not protected.
4. It is your good right to start another poll after some time.

Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 21:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Reinoutr, thanks for picking up a point that I missed. Ferick, you've misread what I posted above: "I've asked for the article to be protected temporarily while we resolve once and for all the issue of the intro." The request is posted under WP:RPP#Current requests for protection. It hasn't yet been actioned yet and I've certainly not protected this page myself. -- ChrisO 22:02, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That's funny- When I tried to edit it says you have been banned permanently because my nick name is "Kosovo"-apparently an inflammatory name. It also says my account has been used by Shareman.Production@Gmail.com. Since my account name is not Kosovo, I got confused and I thought the page was protected, but I guess I am the only one blocked from editing for some reason. Interesting…..Ferick 22:32, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That's very strange, Ferick. I'm happy to look into it if you like. Could you provide more details on my talk page? -- ChrisO 22:45, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know it is not possible to block specific pages for specific users. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 22:46, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not, which is why I'm so puzzled by it. I suppose it might be possible that Ferick was temporary collateral damage from a block on an IP range. -- ChrisO

23:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure what’s going on either, but the message said that I was auto blocked because my user name “Kosovo” ( which is not my username) was an inflammatory name and needed to be changed. It also said something about my account being used by a certain Shareman.Production@Gmail.com. I am really puzzled, and of course I cannot pull the message again because the page has been blocked now for real.Ferick 02:50, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is more: Your user name or IP address has been blocked from editing. You were blocked by RadioKirk for the following reason (see our blocking policy): Autoblocked because your IP address has been recently used by "Rappy30V2". The reason given for Rappy30V2's block is: "vandal from 216.164.203.90". Your IP address is 64.xxx.xxx.xx. I am getting lost& i have no clue what is going on here........Ferick 19:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

RadioKirk, I like to know why did you block me in wikipedia with no prove whatsoever? I never talked to you, don't know you & I have never crossed roads with you in Wiki and you block me because "I am a self admitted sock puppet". What evidence do you have for this sir? This is highly inflammatory accusation and I like an apology. You also said I send you an email? What on earth are you talking about? I have never send you an email- I have never crossed roads with you. Next time check your facts before you make these inflammatory accusation and block people. I have to go through all this hassle just because of your unprofessional behaviour. I am highly disappointed in wikipedia as a serious encyclopedia when people accuse you for something with no prove whatsoever. Are you a new administrator?

Last thing: I connect to the Internet via wireless network and my external IP address is 64.233.173.81 (This is a none static address ). If need be I can provide the internal IP address as well. Please unblock me ASAP.Ferick

I suggest adding these government movies to the article

•  Minorities in Kosovo

A documentary by the Government of Serbia about the position of Serbs and other non-Albanians in Kosovo, and attacks on their civil and human rights from March 17th to 19th in 2004.

•  Destruction of Orthodox culture in Kosovo

A documentary by the Government of Serbia about the Serbian Orthodox churches and monasteries demolished and destroyed by extremists from 1998. to 2005.

How to do envisage including movies in the article? Besides that, the movies are clearly not from a neutral POV, so that makes them unsuitable. Also, the topic that they are about is already included in the article. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 10:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia is Serbia? Just do it! make a place for the serbian propagander. Peace! Wikipedia it was and is now part of Serbia (propagander). Just do it! a copy from serbian wikipedia [21] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.10.219 (talk • contribs) 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Adminstrator check

Cann sommebody check the administrator. The users accounts and the voten is exstrem serbian propagander. I dont need to talk about users souch als serbiana everybody who hase taket part at Kosovo Edit Wars in Wiki know him. He dont have right to vote for somthing about Kosovo after all thate what he hase don. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.178.10.219 (talk • contribs) 24 July 2006 (UTC)

What exactly is it you want? TSO1D 14:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The administrator who is controling this article is not neutral, He or She is pro-Serbian propagander. This must be checket. If no body dont do it the articel is going to be like this and Wikipedia is going to be a part of the Serbian propagander. I am only a user and I dont have the power and time to make somthing agains the organisedet propagander. They have a large bugget. They get money for working here. I dont get money, I am only wikipedian. Sorry but this is big problem, is not a normal Wikipedians agains Wikipedians conflict, but Wikipedians agains a state propagander. For this problem we need help from the administrators and burokrats. A normal user dont have a chance to do agais this oranisedet propagander.

TUNG from Prishtina

As far as I can make out the rather convoluted complaint above, this anonymous user seems to think that I'm working for a well-funded Serbian government propaganda campaign (I presume I'm the administrator he's complaining about). Since I'm not even Serbian, I don't think I need to dignify that claim with a rebuttal... -- ChrisO 21:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Tung, try to be more positive and assume good faith. And why do you attack the Serb users in particular, I though you yourself were from Serbia? TSO1D 02:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

If you are a Wikipedian then you know thate this article is full of propagander. But the fact abt what you are voting is prufing thate or you are a part of serbian propagander or you are stupied. Sorry but is not my foul the arguments are clear for every body witch know somthing about Kosovo. And you dont need to worry. The albanians and the user witch know the situation they dont wount nothing to do with this article. (You are serb my fried and nothing else)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.158.254.169 (talk • contribs) 07:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You know, I've always wandered what my nationality was, I guess this finally settles the question. TSO1D 12:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

---

I don’t think anybody needs to worry about the outcome of this useless poll. Per reasons explain above, it will have no bearing on the article and no obligation on the users (to conform to the outcome of the poll). Ferick

Well, look at Wikipedia:Straw polls. The poll is certainly non-binding, however if concensus can be identified through them, then that is. You have to admit that most users (even excluding the potential socks) voted in favor of the proposal, thus I believe it should be taken into account by all editors. As for your statement that the votes of some users should be ignored because they hold a certain bias, I disagree with that. Everyone has his own convictions, and you cannot arbitrarily discount those you do not agree with. TSO1D 16:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The biggest problem with this kind of poll, as opposed to those on AfD discussions and the like, is that the attention of the community is not drawn to them. Many editors with opinions, knowledge, and most relevantly, with reference material appropriate to the article, will not know the poll is happening. It's a consensus amongst an incredibly unscientific minority of people; most of whom – and I mean no offence to anyone in particular here, this just seems blatantly obvious – are likely to be those who regularly bat the article back and forth for partisan or other reasons, and are somewhat incautious in their editing approach. There must be a better way! Perhaps some sort of peer review, which could be "advertised". – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 17:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with your general assessment of polls. Only on rare occasions do polls not become battlegrounds between partisans who try to rally others to their support and overcome their opposition through a purely numerical advantage. For that reason, discussion is the prefered method for choosing an appropriate mode of action and to reach a concensus. Nevertheless, in this case, I believe that there was a high level of agreement among active users with few exceptions, thus the poll only reinforced that point in order to avoid future conflict rather than seek to implement new changes. TSO1D 18:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I should note that the attention of the community was drawn to this poll; it's posted at Wikipedia:Current surveys. I should also note that I started the poll because Ferick was repeatedly deleting the two lines in question from the article. If you check the edit history, you will see that Ferick was the only user who was disputing the two lines, and all of the other users had no problem with them and restored them. An informal consensus already existed; this poll was intended to get that on the record. -- ChrisO 18:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Chris, I was unaware that it had been posted there. :) On the specifics of this poll, sadly, I don't trust the informal consensus because there seem to be people who come, get peed off with the edit wars, and go. Thus, the community isn't really following the article. I'm acutely aware that I'm just having a whinge rather than offering a solution. I wish I had one to offer. – Kieran T ^{(talk | contribs)} 18:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right, of course, and I also wish there was an alternative solution. Since there doesn't appear to be, I'm afraid we're stuck with what we've got. -- ChrisO 21:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Real World

"But whatever the force of Serbian feeling or strength of its attachment to Kosovo, things have moved on. In the real world, Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia". [22] Interesting take............Ferick 01:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately the author is suffering from the same confusion that you exhibited earlier, i.e. not understanding the difference between control of a territory and sovereignty over it. In the real world, of course, Kosovo is under Serbian sovereignty (hence the current talks on independence) but Serbia has no control over it. -- ChrisO 07:19, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

A comment to both: This is not about the real world or about confusion. It is about what is the prevailing view. This is just one journalist, but if the vast majority of reputable journalist sources (e.g. CNN, BBC) would talk about Kosovo like this, Wikipedia would have to follow that view (per WP:NOR and WP:RS). The question is not about what is real or what is true, but about what is verifiable (per WP:V). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 10:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Contrary to your believe, the goal of any encyclopedia is to portray the real world (not a mythical or imaginary world). And if something is real, logic leads us to believe that it is verifiable. Of course the author is “mixing” things up- glad you are here to straighten everything up. What would we have done if it weren’t for you?

"[In reality] Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia, Kosovo will not be ruled by the Serbs, Serbia has lost its state integrity and all that should be explained to the people", Miodrag Vukovic, advisor to Montenegrian PM Milo Djukanovic [23].Ferick 13:17, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This discussion will soon become archaic anyway. Within a few weeks the final status of the region will be definitely determined, so there is really no point in discussing it's exact status at the moment. De facto it is more independent than not, but de jure it's still part of Serbia. Just leave it at that and wait for the final verdict. TSO1D 13:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Cpt. Morgan is right. Please read carefully "Wikipedia:Reliable sources": As far as the encyclopedia is concerned, [the Real World] is a statement agreed to by the consensus of scholars or experts working on a topic. Have a nice day :-) --Evv 14:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

And if something is real, logic leads us to believe that it is verifiable. There is no such relation between reality and verifiability. There are many things that are neither real, nor verifiable (take for example the Wooglie Mooglie Monster I just made up). There are also a lot things that are verifiable, but not real (e.g. Homer Simpson) and similarly there are things that are real, but not verifiable (I could start an article about my rabbit Spoekie, but nobody could check whether he does exist). Finally, and luckily, there are many things that are both real and verifiable (there is a country called The Netherlands, for example). Because of WP:V, WP:RS and WP:NOR of these only Homer Simpson and The Netherlands belong in Wikipedia, because they are verifiable.

Contrary to your statement the goal of any encyclopedia is to portray the real world, the threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. (direct quote from WP:V). Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 14:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Looks to me that you missed the philosophy classes in college. Your conclusion cannot be drawn from those premises. If you say you have a rabbit, and he actually exist (not because you say so, but he exists on his own), then he does exit and there is no need for someone to verify. To verify whether you are laying about having the rabbit, some needs to come there and see it. So, if someone wants to verify whether “In the real world, Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia” they need to go there and inspect its borders.Ferick 02:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. How we approach this issue is determined not simply on the basis of "the prevailing view" among the general public or the media, but on the prevailing view among the experts. As we've already seen, the unanimous view of reference sources is that Kosovo is "an autonomous province of Serbia" which is under UN administration. That's what we should and do reflect in the article. BTW, say hello to Spoekie for us. ;-) -- ChrisO 18:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure, experts and people who have been there can verify whether Kosovo, in reality, is no longer part of Serbia. However, I don’t count you as one of them.Ferick 02:03, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

...and give him one of these ;) Kieran

He sure loves those :) and thanks for pointing out the importance of expert opinions, I forgot to mention that. Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 19:36, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, editors must follow Wikipedia's official policies and guidelines. Please read carefully Wikipedia:Verifiability: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader must be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, because Wikipedia does not publish original thought or original research.

Therefore, as long as Spoekie's existence (or the current status of Kosovo being anything else than an autonomous province of Serbia) is not published by a reliable source, it's considered original thought or original research and can not be published in Wikipedia. Have a nice day. :-) --Evv 12:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That Kosovo, in the real world, is no longer part of Serbia has been published many times and can be verified as such. So I don’t know get what you are arguing against? I am all for verifiability and reliability.Ferick

I'm arguing that you may have misinterpreted the meaning of "verifiability" in the context of Wikipedia's official policy. Per WP:V & WP:NOR, verification is only possible through reliable source, and not through original research. Regards. --Evv 15:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, I don't see why this should be very difficult.

1. 1 Everyone agrees that Kosovo is technically/de jure/officially a province of Serbia (ie that Serbia has sovereignty over Kosovo). That is why all encyclopedias describe it as such.

So what? That’s already in the paragraph. Most experts also know that in reality Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia, so this also should be put into the intro paragraph.Ferick 13:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

1. 2 All also agree that Serbia does not have de facto control over the territory. This is also what the article describes.

Bingo!!!! Another word, Kosovo, in the real world, is no longer part of Serbia just as Taiwan is no part of China.Ferick 13:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what it is that you object to. Do you want to describe Kosovo as an internationally recognized "independent" and "sovereign" state over which Serbia happens claims sovereignty?Osli73 12:56, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

No, not really. Merely that Kosovo is not part of Serbia in the real world. And, it’s not a matter of what I want- It’s a matterb of how it is.Ferick 13:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

But the text does say: "However, since the end of the Kosovo War in 1999 it has been administered by the United Nations with little direct involvement from the Serbian government." How specifically would you want to change it? TSO1D 13:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, you would help us a lot by providing one single reliable source stating that Kosovo is not part of Serbia. Best regards :-) --Evv 13:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be nice if you follow the discussion-That way you will know where the links are.Ferick 13:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't read the archived parts, but in this page i find no references to any reliable source stating that Kosovo is not part of Serbia. Please, indulge me and provide just one. Best regards. :-) --Evv 13:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it’s not my problem if you cannot find them. It just shows that have not followed the discussion. I have no intention of directing every new user to what has been discussed and where the links are- don’t have time for that.Ferick 17:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, what do you mean by the Real World (wasn't the Real World the name of an MTV docusoap a decade ago)? Today the article intro says that Kosovo is a province of Serbia administered by the UN since 1999 and with considerable autonomy (or something to that effect). What is wrong with that description? Osli73 13:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with that-It’s just missing the most important part: “In the real world, Kosovo is no longer part of Serbia.” [[24]

Real World MTV is a current program not a decade old program-what world are you living in? Bun in any case, "real world"(since you need an explanation fur such an obvious term) means "the practical world as opposed to the academic world" per dictionary.com Ferick 17:30, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Serbia without Kosovo is an editorial, thus expressing an opinion and not stating a fact. Furthermore, it seems to match the description given in this article, as described by Osli73 and TSO1D. Regards. --Evv 18:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again what exactly is it that you would want the text to say, just give a sample sentence that you think represents the situation best. TSO1D 17:57, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

"We believe Kosovo is independent in many ways at this time"[25], Dimitrij Rupel-Slovenian Foreign Minister. Hmmmm.........Ferick 13:27, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

B92's article Rupel: Serbia must not be the loser, mentioned above by Ferick, quotes Dimitrij Rupel supporting Serbia's position: "We believe Kosovo is independent in many ways at this time. I do not meant to say technically independent, but self-sufficient, under international guidance." (In that, he agrees with the current wording on Wikipedia, as described by Osli73 and TSO1D.)

The last paragraph: "The Slovenian minister said that his country does not wish to see a situation where Serbia would be an apparent loser, and Kosovo Albanians winners, because that would, in his words, be detrimental to both Serbia and Kosovo." Regards. --Evv 14:16, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is saying Kosovo is technically independent, but in reality it is- just like the foreign minister said. I am sorry-supporting Serbia's position? Not so much: "We have no objections to some sort of a conditioned independence"- I must have missed something. But in any case, this argument is not about the future status-so I don't know what you are arguing here!Ferick 14:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC) Ferick 14:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Rupel is quoted: "We have no objections to some sort of a conditioned independence, if that meant tying the conditions to the solution of the Western Balkans problem as a whole. We believe that the whole of that region should join the Union, but Serbia first and foremost."

I'm not arguing, but only contextualizing the quotes you provided, for he wording could have been misinterpreted.

Anyway, as TSO1D said yesterday, what exactly is it that you would want the text to say ? Just give a sample sentence that you think represents the situation best. That way we can reach a consensus and remove the article's protection. Regards. --Evv 14:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I have no intentions of repeating myself a hundred times. When the page is unblocked you will get a chance to see it.Ferick 17:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, I suspect that you are ready to go ahead and unilaterally change the article to your own liking once the page is unlocked. Is that the case? If so, why are you unwilling to compromise with other editors?Osli73 17:56, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Please Ferick, be polite, and let's work to solve editing differences here, in the Talk page, where wording and sources are easier to agree on, instead of having pointless edit wars on the article itself. The best way to resolve a dispute is to avoid it in the first place.

So, just give a sample sentence that you think represents the situation best. That way we can reach a consensus and remove the article's protection. :-) Regards. --Evv 18:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Compromise? I am not sure what you have in mind, but I have no intention of compromising at the expense of distorting reality. If the goal of the compromise is to represent the situation on the ground as closely as possible to the actual reality, then that is acceptable.Ferick 18:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The goal is to describe Kosovo as objectively as possible, in accordance to Wikipedia policies. Let's do it. :-) What change/s would you do to the opening paragraph ? --Evv 18:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

(There shouldn't be any real problem as long as we follow WP:V, WP:CITE, WP:RS and WP:NOR. The only possible obstacle could be some wording issues, as we try to follow WP:NPOV; but even that could be easily dealt with using the dictionary and good faith). --Evv 19:04, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

In other words, the goal is to represent the situation on the ground as closely as possible to the actual reality, in accordance to Wikipedia policies. :-) --Evv 19:10, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually the goal is representing the majority view of the situation on the ground, as represented by our reputable and verifiable sources. Ferick appears to believe that we should disregard what these sources say and instead present his own personal POV, based on sources which he won't cite. This is of course a textbook example of original research. We've been over this point a thousand times before, I'm afraid - Ferick's perfectly aware of what the policy is. -- ChrisO 21:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it's clear enough that Ferick has no intention of discussing his preferred version or providing sources. Agreement amongst all users but one is a consensus, as far as policy is concerned: "Wikipedia's consensus practice does not justify stubborn insistence on an eccentric position combined with refusal to consider other viewpoints in good faith." (Wikipedia:Consensus) Ferick has refused to participate in the straw poll or quote sources, which I don't think indicates good faith.

When will you stop lying so bluntly? Everything I have said is backed up by reputable sources (read above). But I should not be surprised, as I have caught you many times lying and misrepresenting facts.Ferick 01:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The article has been locked for long enough. I've unprotected it now so that we can move on. If Ferick continues to go against consensus, as I expect he probably will, we'll deal with that separately. -- ChrisO 19:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Ferick, why do you insist on changing the intro? The current intro already says that Kosovo "is the subject of a long-running political and territorial dispute between the Serbian (and previously, the Yugoslav) government and Kosovo's Albanian population" and that it's administered by the UN "with little direct involvement from the Serbian government". What is it you object to? And, why can't you accept a clear consensus among the editors of the article (none of whom are Serbs, by the way)?Osli73 02:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Same question to you!Ferick 04:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)