Hi,

When you create a new article on a Canadian political party could you create a link for it in the Canadian political parties page and also put a link to Canadian political parties in the article itself. Also, if you're going to create more articles on provincial CCF parties please include links to their modern NDP successors and vice versa. Also, when you create an article try to bold the name of the article when it fist appears in the body of the article. You can do this by using three single quotation marks at either end of the word or phrase. AndyL 08:58, 10 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Well, aside from the technical quibbles, your contributions are excellent - well written and very interesting.. Just a few more wiki points, if the info is available try to put birth date and death date at the top of the article right after the name eg John Smith (January 1 1900 - December 31 1999). If you don't have the exact date just the year is fine - if approximate use ca. or a question mark. Also, on wikifying dates, don't wikify the entire date as a link since such links won't go anywhere. There are articles on individual years and on dates of the year so wikify January 1 and 1900 but not January 1, 1900. AndyL 02:51, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I notice you've been moving articles a lot. There's nothing wrong with that but I'm wondering if you're aware of "redirects" which can be used to link to an article via an alternate name? For instance if you want links that say P. E. Trudeau to connect to the article Pierre Trudeau click on the former link and edit it by entering #REDIRECT [[Pierre Trudeau]] make sure you are redirecting to the actual name of the article and not to a name that itself redirects to the actual name or you'll be causing an "double redirect" which won't work properly. For instance if you go to the article Pierre Elliot Trudeau you'll see that it actually redirects to an article called Pierre Trudeau so when you do redirects they should be #REDIRECT [[Pierre Trudeau]] rather than #REDIRECT [[Pierre Elliot Trudeau]]

Alternately, you can code it as [[Pierre Trudeau|P.E. Trudeau]] in which case it doesn't matter if the link written prior to the | is a redirected link or not. AndyL 02:51, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Paula Fletcher was the leader of the Manitoba CP for a period in the 1980s. She has since left the party and is now a city councillor in Toronto representing ward 30 which was formerly represented by Jack Layton. I believe she's now a member of the NDP but I'm not sure, the NDP machine supported her in the municipal by-election held to fill the seat left vacant by Jack Layton when he became NDP leader and he endorsed her personally. She had previously been a school trustee in that ward for several years. Her husband, John Cartwright (another ex CPer), is President of the Toronto and District Labour Council.AndyL 03:21, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Don't know anything about the others. Am curious if Darrell Rankin is related to Harry Rankin. Anyway, the CP was in general disarray in the early to mid 1990s due to the split between the George Hewison reforms and the more orthodox members and the party was deregistered federally following the 1993 election so I suspect the problems the party was having were also felt in Manitoba. The CP has a discussion board, perhaps you can ask for details there?AndyL 04:22, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Great work in assembling the Manitoba Liberal leadership data! I've proposed an alternative format for this page. If you don't like it, I won't be offended if you revert. Kevintoronto 15:19, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm glad you approve. The formatting is straightforward: put in Major Headings by putting == before and after the heading. For minor headings, use === before and after the heading. The Table of Contents will take care of itself. Wiki is so smart! Keep up the good work. I look forward to your PC and NDP articles. Kevintoronto 17:54, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Finally! I've always wondered who Stan Roberts was! I had heard the name several times, but searches pulled up nothing. I thank you and Wikipedia for this! Kevintoronto 20:09, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

==

Never heard of Larry Johnston but you might want to contact John Riddell, the former leader of the RWL at socialistvoice@sympatico.ca and Ian Angus at ian@socialisthistory.ca , Ian was at the RWL at the time and he's a left historian as well.

There's also Barry Weisleder at barryaw@look.ca he was in the Winnipeg branch of the RWL at the time so he'd definitely know Larry Johnston and might be able to give you some more detail. AndyL 01:21, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ed Schreyer

In New_Democratic_Party_of_Manitoba you describe Schreyer was a Dutch Catholic. Are you sure about this? I always thought he was Ukrainian and I recall , as a child, listening to the Royal Canadian Air Farce making Urkainian jokes about Schreyer when he was Governor General. Now I concede RCAF is not the most authoritative source, still, you'd think Luba Goy would know a fellow Urkainian when she sees oneAndyL 06:19, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Royal Canadian Air Farce was on CBC Radio from 1973 or so until the early 1990s when they switched to tv. AndyL

Interesting. If you look online we have a Ukrainian site saying: "Ukrainian-Canadians have made an enormous contribution to this country, from the Prairie settlers to Governors General Ed Schreyer and Ray Hnyatyshyn" [1] while a site on German Canadians says: "Ed Schreyer, a Canadian born to German parents" [2]

I know that over the centuries quite a lot of German famers emigrated and settled in the east. In fact, one interpretation of the Pied Piper of Hamelin fable is that it's an allegory for the exodus of youth from some areas of Germany to eastern lands (another is that it's an allegory for the Children's Crusade).

The best known of these German settlers are the Volga Germans, of course but there were also large numbers of German settlers in Romania, other parts of Russia and I would expect the Ukraine. This all happened in the centuries before German unification in the 1870s so by German I mean ethno-linguistic Germans (ie Austrians as well). So it sounds like some of Schreyer's forbearers were ethnic Germans (or Austrians) who had settled in the Ukraine. Since a lot of people think Schreyer is Ukrainian this should probably be worked into the article (eg "Schreyer's maternal grandparents were members of the Ukraine's German community"). Something like that. AndyL 17:42, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the Pied Piper story predates the most significant German settlement in Russia by a few centuries. Most German settlement occured during the reign of Catherine the Great who was German herself and sent out manifestoes inviting German farmers to settle lands in the Ukraine that had recently been conquered from Turkey and that ethnic Russians had been slow to settle - guaranteeing the Germans the right to keep their language and culture. (see Volga Germans - Volga isn't actually in the Ukraine but that settlement was part of the same wave. Don't know if the Schreyer's lived on land won from the Turks, quite likely if one looks at the prior boundaries of the Ottoman Empire which had covered the Balkans and I would expect parts of western Ukraine) AndyL 17:53, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

leadership conventions

If you have time to check out The Happy Warrior by Donald C. Macdonald it has the results of several Ontario CCF/NDP conventions (Macdonald's first, a late 1960s leadership challenge and I believe the the 1970 convention won by Stephen Lewis) as well as a lot of info about Ontario politics in the 50s, 60s and 70s. AndyL 15:46, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

NDP

Well, I guess it's a matter of opinion whether the RWL's intervention in the NDP was entryist or not. I guess they'd say they were doing fraction work in the NDP but since their focus was outside the party they weren't, strictly speaking, entryist. Others on the left (ie those not in the NDP or those who don't have a problem with the word.) would say any work by revolutionary socialists in the NDP or a labour party is entryism by definition. I think it's useful to make a link to the article on entryism in some way for the purpose of reference. I'll see if I can come up with a way to do it without making a claim ex-RWL members would dispute. AndyL 21:57, 28 Aug 2004 (UTC)

LaRouche

Thanks for the spelling fix there. One small thing though - when you made the change, you accidentally deleted the last few paragraphs of the article entirely, it looks like. Not sure what happened exactly, but I just thought I'd let you know so you can be careful about it in the future. Snowspinner 19:33, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

Adminship

Hi, I've nominated you to become an Administrator. Please indicate on Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship whether you accept the nomination. AndyL 15:52, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Which computer were you using? On some computers with smaller memories artiicles that are more than a 32K in size will be truncated if you edit the entire page rather than editing section by section (ie clicking the "edit" links that run down the side of the page after each paragraph). If the file is too large there will be a warning at the top of the page when you go into edit mode which reads (in the case of the LaRouche page)

WARNING: This page is 36 kilobytes long. Please consider condensing the page and moving the detail to another article so it is not approaching or in excess of 32KB.

Another possibility you were doing cutting and pasting you may have just not cut enough.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry about it, it's a pretty common error. If you can you should try to compare your final version of an article with the version that precedes your edits to ensure that nothing has been accidentally removed. AndyL 22:53, 14 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Odd question

CJ, I hate to be nosy and bizarre, especially since we've never chatted, but I saw you're a PhD candidate at Queen's. Do you know Brian Thorn, by chance? He and I were at SFU together in their history department, and I remember he went off to Queen's, I think. Brian and I weren't particularly good friends (we chatted now and then, but were in different time periods and countries entirely for our theses), but I always like finding these odd degrees of separation between editors. Just thought I'd ask. I'm considering supporting you for admin, but I always feel odd when I don't know someone -- maybe a brief chat with you will help me hurdle that one. :-) Jwrosenzweig 22:03, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vandalism in Progress

No problem, I think I fixed my contribution. (I was worried I had messed it up, these multisection admin pages are always tough).--Samuel J. Howard 02:15, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

No problem

Thank you for stating your concern. I was actually worried I was overreacting to a newbie so I will give that IP a rest and a possible 2nd chance. Regards, Ancheta Wis 02:28, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Green Party edit

Well done on the cleanup of my sloppy edit. I do a lot of work on Green party wikis that are less public and i have bad habits. Generally i just tried to make the whole page less flakey.

Leader of the Opposition (Ontario)

I've created Leader of the Opposition (Ontario) which needs a list of opposition leaders - if you have time to help compose this it would be very helpfulAndyL 13:39, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Terrorism

Hey CJC, I notice that you've been eliminating reference to the FLQ as a terrorist organization. Um, I think that the murders and bombings to achieve political ends pretty much makes them one. Removing that word from the Caouette article makes him sound like a nut-bar for wanting the FLQ types executed. Okay, he was a nut-bar, but identifying the FLQ as a terrorist organization gives some explanation for his vehement stand on them. Without it, the reader who has never heard of the FLQ has to go to the linked article to find out why Caouette was so vehement. (There, the reader will find out that the FLQ was a terrorist org.) Also, I think it would be better to use the full name of the FLQ at the first instance, rather than the initialism, both for reasons of style and for clarity. Keep up the great work on Cdn politics. Kevintoronto 22:40, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments re the use of "terrorism". Sigh. While I do agree that the the word has been mis-used by many people, I don't agree that that is justification for abandoning such a useful word. I think that there is a clear case of terrorism, and that there aren't going to be FLQ-supporters around to object, unlike for the Mohawks, or the PLO, but I have no interest in engaging in a dbate on semantics, so I propose this: that I add to the two article mentioned, and elsewhere if necessary, "The FLQ was an organization that sought to promote its goal of independence for Quebec through violent means, including bombing, kidnapping and murder." (I think that "terrorism" is a much more convenient short-hand, but I've already given up on that.) This would explain to the reader why the individuals in question took such harsh stands on the FLQ. Is that a fair compromise? As far as accents, just go ahead and write the French words sans accent. There are gnomes with bilingual keyboards who go around correcting these things for us. (I post from two computers - one unilingual, and one bilingual, and I've noticed that my accentfree posts are fairly quickly corrected.) Kevintoronto 00:35, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

CJC: "An alternate suggestion for a compromise would be the approach I took on the William Kashtan page -- use the word "terrorism", but only in conveying someone else's opinion. Something like "The FLQ were widely regarded as ...", for instance."

Hmmmm.... I have used that sort of wording on occassion in NPOVing an article. It helps to avoid offending the writer by removing as little text as possible, but I think in this instance, I'd rather go with a factual approach (as suggested), and let the reader come to conclusions. I still think that "terrorist" should be aword that can be used in a factual way, rather than as a matter of opinion, so I'm not crazy about using it only to as someone's opinion. I would hope that no-one would have a problem identifying the acts of violence actualy carried out by the FLQ. If you have no objection, I'll make the change as poposed. Thanks for your comments. Kevintoronto 11:26, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind offer of research on a Canadian political figure. I come to Wikipedia for information on the people and organizations that occupy the more obscure corners of Canadian politics, i.e., those for whom information is not readily available elsewhere. So I hesitate to ask, because unless you have magical powers, it would probably be unreasonable to ask for information about Anne McBride or Henri-Georges Grenier. Kevintoronto 13:37, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Rod Bruinooge: quite a character. Thanks for that. I met Anne McBride once in 1982. Her campaign pamphlet showed a young woman with a hairstyle from the 50s. In person, she was a tiny, frail, white-haired woman. Very amusing. I would love to know what motivates someone like that. Kevintoronto 15:02, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Guay

Never heard of him but I'd be cautious, Gerard Guay may not be an uncommon French name. I'd be more confident that they were the same person if all the references were to one city but given that we have an apparently right wing Guay in Hull and a left wing Guay in Manitoba they are, more likely than not, different people. This could be a French version of Donald MacDonald (which was even worse since Donald S. Macdonald and Donald C. MacDonald were both Toronto politicians.) AndyL 01:24, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Ah, I hadn't realised that they both had links to Manitoba. It's not unheard of for leftists to move to the right, LaRouche himself is an example of this. Moving from the far right to the far left is somewhat less common but not unheard of. Best thing is to talk to Rankin and to Guay himself if you can get an email address for him. Then again, one can be a legal representative for a group without sharing their beliefs. Left wing lawyer Clayton Ruby, for instance, is the legal representative for the Church of Scientology in Canada. AndyL 01:37, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You're a sysop!

I'm pleased to let you know that, consensus being reached, you are now an administrator. Congratulations!. You should read the relevant policies and other pages linked to from the administrators' reading list before carrying out tasks like deletion, protection, banning users, and editing protected pages such as the Main Page. Most of what you do is easily reversible by other sysops, apart from page history merges and image deletion, so please be especially careful with those. You might find the new administrators' how-to guide helpful. Cheers! -- Cecropia | Talk 00:21, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Page move request

Hello, you sent me a message, which is how I know your name. Congratulations on your administratorship!.

I have integrated the text from Fort Bliss, Texas, a bot-generated page into Fort Bliss. Can you now move Fort Bliss over the bot page? I can take care of redirects, etc. to save you time. Thank you, Ancheta Wis 09:52, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

You put this message on the Fort Bliss talk page: "Just to let everyone know, I've shifted the information on this page into Fort Worth, Texas (giving notice of the merger on the latter page, should anyone be interested in the earlier edits). The Fort Bliss is now, as such, obselete. CJCurrie 21:08, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)" - Did you mean that you'd moved the page to Fort Bliss, Texas? - Mateo SA | talk 00:44, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

CPC-ML Manitoba change

I was trying to figure out why you undid my change in this article. Your un-do obviously makes sense. I can't figure out why I made the change in the first place. I must have been editing too quickly. Thanks for catching my mistake. Kevintoronto 22:43, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Pax Vobiscum

Thank you for the Fort Bliss results. I interpreted the actions referring to Fort Worth as your sense of humor. Everything is fine. No problem at all. The sum total is that my Cleanup is accomplished. Regards, Ancheta Wis 02:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Vfd (CAD candidates)

As you might guess, I have a different opinion on the notable-ness of these articles since the election results (if complete) would provide the same information as most of these articles, Magnus Thompson, as you say, does have more content than most of the rest. --Big_Iron 01:36, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I still support the deletion, but I think that you have made some good points in favour of keeping the article. I hope that voter apathy isn't the deciding factor. --Big_Iron 02:07, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

CJC, maybe there would be more reason for keeping these articles if there were links from the parties for which they ran, or perhaps a category, so that someone researching a particular party could learn also about its candidates. Kevintoronto 03:34, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Also, I have only voted on the one that I've been able to find - you said there were 5. What are the names of the others? Kevintoronto 14:39, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Non notable losers of Canadian elections

Rather than overloading the votes for deletion page, perhaps we could find one place to discuss generally whether running in one (or more) elections and losing badly in itself is notable enough for an article. Once consensus has been obtained on the principle, you can then proceed or desist with adding them all. Jongarrettuk 23:16, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Why not have just one page for all candidates (or candidates of one party). If there's nothing more notable about an individual than standing in that election, have a small biography of that person (1 or 2 sentences) on that page? Those who really are notable just having links to their pages? Jongarrettuk 17:43, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

- In reply to your comment on my talk page - the main benefit of an article for all the candidates of a party in an election is that people can easily find it. It can be linked to the page discussing that election and to the page of the party those candidates represented. At the moment nothing links into any of these separate pages.

- Hardly anyone's ever going to read them! Yes, their size is tiny and they are not doing too much harm, but what's the point of writing articles no-one's going to read? The only way of remedying this sensibly (as far as I can see) is having a separate page listing all the candidates that stood in the election (or for a party in the election), which is what I, and you say others, are proposing. Maybe you should construct this list now anyway?

- If we discount the trolls, it's touch and go as to whether your articles will survive the VfD. It seems ironic that it may be better for those interested in what sort of people run in Canadian federal elections if the VfD vote wins. Jongarrettuk 19:16, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

- - Re your comment about it not being important how many people read the page, I've got to disagree with you there. There's no point writing a page no-one will read, and similarly it's not useful to put information somewhere where those who are interested will not read it. If the consensus is keep, so be it, but if it is, I still recommend you get a way so that those that may be interested in these candidates can easily find them. Jongarrettuk 20:05, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I would argue that short bios on a consolidated page would certainly have more information content, be easier to maintain in terms of keeping the content correct and current, and more likely to attract interest. The issue of finding it could be addressed by the appropriate use of links or redirects. My $.02 --Big_Iron 10:43, 3 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sir William Thomas White

I'm trying to provide articles on all the Canadians given the honorificRight Honourable. I'm having trouble finding info on Sir William Thomas White who was Borden's finance minister. It seems he suddenly left the cabinet but I can't find an explanation, was there a scandal? Did he resign on principle? Did he resign due to illness? If you have some time it would be great if you could do a write up on him.AndyL 16:37, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lawrence

Yes, I was thinking of federal politics where Eglinton and Lawrence were merged into Eglinton-Lawrence some time in the 1970s. Also, I used to ride the Bathurst bus through the riding during the 1990 election when Shalom Shachter was running and I didn't remember the riding being called Lawrence. AndyL 22:25, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

White

Ok, I created a short stub based on information on the parliamentary website (ie when he was elected etc). I didn't think he either quit in a dispute. left due to scandal or was dumped given that he was named to the Imperial Privy Council the year after he left the cabinet. Also, his successor was appointed to cabinet without having a seat in the Commons and had to enter parliament through a by-election which suggests White didn't leave until Borden had found a "star" replacement. AndyL 23:53, 2 Oct 2004 (UTC)

1872 Canadian election

Kevin and I are trying to figure out who was the "leader" of the Liberal Party in the 1872 Canadian election. Any ideas?AndyL 20:02, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Until 1872 one could sit in the Ontario legislature and the House of Commons at the same time. Sessions were far shorter than they are now and I believe the house and legislature met at different times of the year. This changed in 1872 which is why Blake quit as Premier of Ontario, so he could run for re-election to Ottawa. Blake's entry in the Parliamentary website [3] lists him as Federal Opposition leader from 1869 to 1871. Presumably, he quit in 1871 when he became Premier of Ontario. I have caught a number of errors on the Parliamentary website as well but they are usually of the nature of misidentifying a CP candidate as Conservative Party instead of Communist Party or listing a New Democracy candidate in 1940 as a New Democratic Party candidate. I guess the only way to be certain is to delve into Hansard from the period. AndyL 01:05, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

leadership conventions

Alex Ng alexng@ican.net would certainly have the numbers from last year's NDP leadership convention. Feel free to say I suggested you email him. He may also have the other numbers you seek. I'm not going to have time to go to Robarts or York University's library for some time but I'll look up the info from 1984 if you still need it in a few weeks. AndyL 01:16, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Feel free to elaborate as you see fit. As for Blake as opposition leader, perhaps a Blake biography or Hansard can give us answers?AndyL 01:50, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Earlier, I had misread this entry on Blake from the 1911 Britannica] which identifies him as leader of the opposition at Queen's Park but makes no mention of him having the position in Ottawa prior to 1880. AndyL 01:59, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've written the Parliamentary website a few times to point out errors. They've never acknowledged my emails but I believe I have noticed corrections being made. I think you may be correct about Blake and they may have misread a passage in an article or book describing Blake as Leader of the Opposition at Queen's Park from 1869 until 1871. Perhaps, if you can verify that he did not hold the position federally at the same time, you should write and correct them?AndyL 02:02, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the summary of your research. This is a fascinating area. I think that you and AndyL have better access to research facilities, so I will leave the issue in your capable hands. Kevintoronto 13:04, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Jim Renwick

Do you have any info on James Renwick, the late Ontario NDP MPP? If you can find an obituary that would be very useful. AndyL 22:20, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Manitoba Cabinet Shuffle

According to babble there was one to day.

"David Chomiak is moving to Energy, replacing Tim Sale who is taking over from Comiak at health.

Scott Smith, the first NDP’er to hold his seat, was given a promotion to Intergovernmental Affairs and Trade. A promotion was also given to Jim Rondeu taking over for Smith at Industry and Economic Development.

Theresa Oswald, who until now was a back bench MLA, will take over Rondeu’s old post as Minister of Healthy Living. "

Don't know if there are other changes.

BTW, I've tried to write biographies of losing contestants in various Ontario leadership conventions. Most of my articles are stubs. Feel free to add anything if you wish.

Leadership candidates

Haven't gotten anything on Michael Houlton who was neither a Liberal MP nor MPP and seems to have been a fringe candidate in two successive Liberal races. I suspect Douglas Campbell was a fringe NDP leadership candidate. There is a Douglas Campbell who was a "coffee house owner" and ran as an independent federally in the 1960s in Toronto's St. Paul's riding. Don't know if this is the same guy. I think the Campbell who ran for the NDP leadership in 1970 is the same Campbell (described as an "old CCF type") who ran in the two recent Toronto mayoralty elections but I'm not sure. Given your interest in fringe candidates you might be intertested in these two.

All I know about Albert Wren is that he was Ontario's sole Liberal-Labour MPP in the 1950s and 1960s. Eddie Sargent is described as a legendary, iconoclastic, independent character but I haven't found out too much about him. AndyL 20:28, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hm, probably isn't the same Douglas Campbell then (though how many Douglas Campbells can there be in one party)? The mayoralty candidate was 73 when he ran last year. Any idea how old the leadership candidate was when he ran in 1970? If he's identified as being 39 or 40 then it's likely the same guy. AndyL 21:15, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Not certain. My source is this weblog which says the following:

THE SIXTH PLACE FINISHER was Douglas Campbell - who had no web presence to speak of, but would you expect any different from a 73-year-old former sea captain? Campbell is an old-school NDP type who also finished just behind the high-profile top three in 2000 - of course, that group included Enza Supermodel, who failed to unseat Kyle Rae in his/her more modest council bid this year (yet still got half the one-third of the Ward 27 vote Rae didn't). As for Campbell, he scored 8,591 mayoral votes in 2000 vs. 2,196 this year.

I don't think his contact info is on the City of Toronto website any longer (I can't find it there in any case) - if I have time I guess I could go down to City Hall and ask to see his candidate regisration so I can see if I can find his phone number and just call him up and ask. AndyL 22:12, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Hm, given the number of leadership runs he lists he must have put his name in contention at every NDP convention he attended (technically every NDP convention - until recent changes to the rules federally - is a leadership convention and any delegate - maybe even any NDP member if they're so inclined - can put their name in contention if they so wish and have nominators - except most of the time there's only a contest when there's a vacancy so most of the time the incumbent is acclaimed). Since Douglas' runs against incumbent leaders wouldn't have been considered serious leadership challenges it's unlikely they are reported in the press and probably aren't worth digging up anyway. AndyL 22:55, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ontario and Federal NDP conventions are usually held in alternating years so its likely at least one of his leadership challenges was federal. AndyL 23:01, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Indeed, according to NDP leadership conventions he ran for the federal leadership in 1975 getting 11 votes.

Ok, let's see, 1970, 72, 73, 75, 89. 1970 was ONDP, 1972 was likely ONDP as well. 1975 was federal and so, probably was 1973. What I can't figure out is 1989 when there was a federal NDP leadership convention but Campbell is not listed. He may have run and gotten no votes and therefore isn't listed in the record? Otherwise there may have been an ONDP convention the same year though that's unlikely. Or perhaps he just got the year wrong? AndyL 23:24, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the 1989 convention could have been ONDP. I was a delegate to an ONDP convention that had been postponed from 1990 because of that year's provincial election (I think it was a 1991 convention after which the ONDP returned to their even year cycle, either that or they cancelled the 1990 convention altogether and the event I attended was in 1992). In any case, if the 1990 convention was postponed (or cancelled) then there wouldn't have been one in 1989. BTW, there were other occasional challenges by rank and file delegates. A friend of mine, Ian Orenstein, put his name in contention against Bob Rae in either 1988 or 1986 (I think the former) when he was a delegate as a way of protesting his leadership. Of course he got trounced! The only challenge I recall federally, other than Marcel Hatch, was one during the Broadbent years that I saw on tv. A youth delegate announced he was going to put his name in contntention against Broadbent and then he paniced and changed his mind when all the assembled media pounced on him with bright lights and mics. I seem to recall seeing him on tv running away, with the media in chase until he was finally cornered somewhere and hastily changed his mind when he'd realised what a big deal it was (and I think after a few party big wigs took him aside and told him he was being an idiot). AndyL 23:42, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The 1946 challenge was more serious. Jolliffe received a lot of the blame for taking the CCF from official opposition with 34 seats, just four seats short of being the largest party in the legislature, in 1943 to only eight seats in 1945 (losing his own seat in the process). He was particularly blamed because of his "gestapo" speech in the last days of the campaign accusing Drew of running a political police force (evidence surfaced in the 1970s proving he was right). Senior CCFers such as Charlie Millard were approached to run against Jolliffe but declined largely because they too didn't have seats. Lewis Duncan was recruited to challenge Jolliffe, from what I can gather he was a well known lawyer who had run for mayor and possibly was a Toronto alderman or Controller at the time but his roots in the party were too shallow (he had been a Liberal) and delegates preferred to stick with JolliffeAndyL 00:23, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Bill Temple

You wouldn't know Bill Temple's birthdate would you? I know he died April 1988 - his exact birth date and death date would be helpful if you can easily find it. AndyL 21:04, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Earl Lawson

I've got something on most of the candidates for Ontario Tory, Liberal and CCF/NDP leadership over the years. One thing I'm not sure of though is this: are the Earl Lawson who ran for the Ontario Tory leadership in 1920, the Earl Lawson who ran for the Ontario Tory leadership in 1938 and the Earl Lawson who ran for the federal Tory leadership in 1938 one, two or three people? What makes me unsure is the Earl Lawson who ran federally would have been 29 in 1920. It's also hard to believe one person would run for the leadership of both the federal and provincial party in the same year! AndyL 18:18, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Do not revert riding names!

The ridings in Ontario have the exact same borders as the federal ridings at the 1996 representation. Therefore, it would be silly to have more than one page. Plus just look at Ottawa South and Ottawa Centre which show information for both the federal representation and provincial. Also, the riding links at Ontario Legislative Assembly do not have (Ontario riding) next to them. Earl Andrew 19:11, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The districts do and will diverge from time to time, but I think this can be explained within the articles. (history for example) The point is, they will be doubled at some point in time and therefore it would be a little strenuous to have more than one page. I also noticed Category:Ontario electoral districts that should be changed to. (if your plan is succesful- which I am opposed to ;-)) Earl Andrew 22:21, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

CCF sources

I've been using The Dilemma of Canadian Socialism: The CCF in Ontario by Gerry Caplan as a source though, oddly, it makes no mention that I can find of the 1946 leadership challenge - Caplan pretty much stops at the 1945 election - he has some interesting material on the pre CCF labour parties in Ontario as well as on Liberal-Labour candidates though he doesn't actually say which were the three who were elected (only one of the three he mentions is listed on the Ontario legislature website which, oddly, does not distinguish between Liberal and Lib-Lab MPPs). I've added Caplan's material to the articles on James Simpson, Liberal-Labour (Canada), Murray Cotterill, Lewis Duncan and a few others. AndyL 19:43, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I already have the name of the Communist who was elected as a Lib-Lab, Alexander A. Parent from Windsor. Another intriguing candidate who was defeated was George Burt, Canadian director of the UAW from 1939 to 1968. The ironic thing is he was Treasurer of UAW local 222 in Oshawa in 1937 when Mitch Hepburn went to war against the CIO (and UAW) over 222's strike against GM and here is Burt, 8 years later running as Hepburn's candidate! Arthur Reaume, mayor of Windsor and a former Tory was another Lib-Lab but he was defeated in 45 and was finally elected as a straight Liberal in 51 - later ran for leader. Arthur Wren, of course, was the only Lib-Lab elected in 48 (he had been defeated in 45) and would be in the Leg for 20 years.

So what justification does the CPC's book give for their alliance with Hepburn?AndyL 22:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yes and no mention that while the CCF lost in 43 the results were a spectacular breakthrough, minority legislature with the CCF a mere four seats short of the Tories. No mention either that most (maybe all?) of the Lib-Lab candidates ran against incumbent CCF MPPs and thus were directed at hurting the CCF rather than defeating the Tory government. AndyL 22:06, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)