Talk:Moon landing conspiracy theories

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Spoofs

I added a spoof (the Dark side of the moon one), please change the title of it so it is better .

Nevermind, there is a section about it.

Title

One or two of the main "theories" state that the landings did occur, so there is clearly no consensus among the hoaxsters. So, how about this, or something like it, as this article's title? Apollo program alternative theories. Wahkeenah 23:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, pedantically speaking, I believe the guy who claims the landings did occur but that gravity was four times higher than accepted claims that the video footage of the landing was faked to pretend that gravity wasn't any higher than we thought. BTW, it might be worth pointing out that many (if not most) of these people have had to self-publish, presumably because no publisher would touch it... I believe he's a case in point. Mark Grant 23:35, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to the Internet (and especially to this page) any yahoo can self-publish... up to a point. Anyway, that title came to me as being neutral and non-inflammatory. "hoax accusations" and "conspiracy theories" and "Apollo shills" and "Bill Kaysing shills" just don't quite cut it. Maybe someone will go for this one, or something like it; or at least maybe everyone will disagree with it, so they'll have some common ground. Wahkeenah 23:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

The next time someone wants to publish a pro-hoax book, I wish they would pay me to be the fact checker. That is a job that certainly doesn't do any work. Bubba73 (talk), 23:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe the title, Apollo program alternative theories,is an example of false balance as it implies parity between the generally accepted historical record and the conspiracy theories. As far as sources go, I agree with Mark. We should point out the various issues with all of the sources. Since the treatment of evidence seems to be a central argument, I think there should be a blanket statement about the veracity of the sources briefly explaining the POVs of 'both' sides. i.e. NASA faked the evidence vs. the Historiography. See the ::introduction of Holocaust denial for an excellent treatment of a similar problem of evidence. I think this statement should be added to the skanty introduction and the 'Burden of proof' section removed entirely.

Look at Holocaust denial as well as a good way to structure the 'top' of this article to make for a good short introduction to the topic. Then we can trail off into the swamp if you want. 70.160.231.246 00:02, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

• You've got an excellent point, the article title gives more legitimacy to the "Apollo skeptics" than it deserves, but at least it doesn't contain any "pejorative" words, I don't think. Although there are some comparisons to be made, Holocaust denial is largely confined to neo-Nazis, and there are few (even the Apollo skeptics) who would argue that Holocaust denial is anything other than patently offensive. This is more of an argument about whether the government, which couldn't even hide a third-rate burglary, could somehow pull off faking the space program. As I said, maybe there could be a better title... maybe "Challenges to the official Apollo history", or something hopefully less wordy. "Apollo denial" is very succinct, but I don't think they would buy into it. Wahkeenah 00:07, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

the term conspiracy theory is not inherently perjorative. it is simply descriptive in the case of this topic. 70.160.231.246 02:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

To the hoax proponents, it is a hot-button issue. Wahkeenah 03:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

understood and beside the point. This is not a soapboax or a vanity page. it is widely understood as a conspiracy theory and should be labeled as such 70.160.48.35 11:45, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Theoretically it's beside the point, but in practice it will unleash further edit wars. Read all the junk on this page and you might see what I'm getting at. Wahkeenah 16:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Wahkeenah's entirely correct, except that the point runs even deeper than the title. The problem here is not going to be solved by clever naming; it'll be solved by getting the editorial framing of the content structured in a way which acknowledges the inevitable onslaught of opinion it will always attract - not always from the most patient or 'housetrained' wikipedians. Hence my 'stuck record' insistence that we consider how other touchy issues are handled elsewhere on the 'pedia, to see how other editors maintain articles which might suffer as this one has.

I'm proposing we should keep this article to an account of the accusations in one dimension only - the fact of their existence, as a cultural phenomenon: That's the only aspect of them that is accepted as common ground between Apollo deniers and Apollo defenders - that they are out there, and have a certain history, key individuals, popular resonances, etc. We can join together to tell that story entirely neutrally. Put the substance of the arguments elsewhere, and make it VERY clear in a top-note to the discussion page that contributors wishing to engage in the specific arguments should do so under the "Examination of the claims ... " article. Adhib 20:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I tend to agree, and it seems to be the format used in articles about similar hoax claims (e.g. holocaust denial and 9/11 denial). But I think you'll find that any attempt to treat this as a 'social phenomenon' will immediately be rejected by the Apollo-deniers. Mark Grant 20:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Right. "social phenomenon" is effectively another way to say "conspiracy theory". Wahkeenah 21:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, hang on a minute. Let's let them do their own objecting. Many of them may be quite happy for one article to focus on the history of their story, and another to delve into the arguments internal to it. And as far as I can see, there's no other common ground on which to base a neutral article. There is the fact that these notions are 'out there' - this much we all agree on. They have been out there in ways we can report neutrally on. All pro and anti arguments can be catered for in an 'Examination of ...' What could be wrong with that? Adhib 18:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, how about we treat the odd case of why so many people still believe NASA as a sociological phenomenon? No? Quite. The point here is that hoax deniers are frightened that actually presenting the evidence on this page will expose the truth. The only person who could object to presenting what accusers say (and the responses by landing believers) is someone afraid of the truth. Carfiend 21:17, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

No-one is 'frightened by the evidence' because there isn't any. We're just tired of being expected to debunk the increasingly bizarre claims that are posted here, and particularly when they've already been debunked numerous times on the web. There's no reason whatsoever to have yet another list of 'why the Apollo-deniers are wrong' arguments on this page when there are so many sites devoted to that. Or do you think that the 'holocaust denial' page should have a similar list of rebuttals of holocaust denial 'evidence'? Mark Grant 21:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

People tend to accept recorded history unless there is proof to the contrary. A better question is, at what point did you decide the historical record was suspect? Was there any one defining moment, like the "waving flag" or some such? Or was it a gradual process? Wahkeenah 21:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Carfiend, I think that black and white idea of what kind of person could object (fearful self-deceivers) is unlikely to prove constructive, and very likely to lead to charges that you're not engaging here on the assumption of good faith. To clarify: I'm delighted to have each and every new mental pabulum chewed over by denier of the week exposed for what it is. There's no question of censoring such stuff, and so no relevancy to posing as the voice of free speech. My only concern here is with the credibility - wikipedia recently scored reasonably favourably in a like-for-like comparison with Britannica. What Britannica has and we don't is the luxury of editorial decisions being final. So Britannica doesn't have to handle topics better suited to a medium like Usenet. Here, there's no such thing as final, and the trick is to work out a way to handle the endless flow of new, would-be contributors, in ways which preserve the credibility of the pedia. Adhib 18:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Do we have to endlessly have this conversation? You already conceded defeat on this issue - there is no historical record aside from NASA propoganda. No independent witnesses, no engineering data to back up the models in the museums. There is no historical record. Carfiend 21:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

How about trying to answer the question? You weren't born doubting the historical record, you arrived at that conclusion somehow. I'm just trying to figure out what you're seeing that I'm not seeing, or vice versa. Wahkeenah 21:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not that I doubt it, there ISN'T ONE. I'm finding it hard to see what evidence for you are seeing. When I see that the only evidence for the landings are some photos of a dubious nature, with none of the backup documentation, high quality video, telemetry etc that you would expect, along with issues with cameras, radiation, etc etc, what other conclusions can you come to? Carfiend 21:29, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

If you think there isn't a historical record, you haven't looked very far. You still haven't answered my question, though. Wahkeenah 21:33, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Where is it? I think we should have a section in the page of independent evidence for the Apollo landings. It would include all the data, witnesses etc. The good thing is it would not take up much space! I arrived at the conclusion because I was really interested in the landings, they seemed such a phenomenal achievement, on reading more and more, it just seemed more and more fishy. So many inconsistencies, so little real evidence. Carfiend 21:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The apparent inconsistencies are all explainable, and have been explained on the page. I'd be interested in seeing your point-by-point of which explanations don't hold water. And don't say "because NASA is the source". That's circular reasoning. Explain why the explanations don't make sense to you on their face. Wahkeenah 21:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Your logic is faulty out of the gate. Of course you can't prove that NASA is telling the truth by reference to NASA. I'm not going to get into a point-by-point with you, because I don't think you have a very good grasp of logic, but most of the 'explanations' are a matter of opinion 'the flag is waving because Buzz is shaking it' vs 'Buzz is trying to stop the flag from waving', but since the video is NASA anyway, and we don't have the original hi-res, we can't really know. Carfiend 21:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It's hopeless. As I have said many times, the basic premise is that NASA is lying. So anything that apparently contradicts that notion must be rejected. Now, getting back to basics, what do you think the title of the article should be? Do you like my ultra-neutral title idea? Or is too neutral? Wahkeenah 21:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't see what's wrong with the title, from the vote above, nobody else seems to either. You don't like it? I'm not sure why. My premise is not that NASA is lying, my premise is to look at the problem from the point of view that we don't know whether NASA is lying, so we have to look at the evidence from a skepitical point of view. When you discount NASA's stuff, there is NO EVIDENCE to speak of. Unless you assume that NASA is telling the truth (the opposite of what you are accusing me of) you can't conclude the landings happened. It's an act of faith. Carfiend 21:51, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

As long as everyone (except that one user who had renamed the article for a day or so) is OK with the title, they might as well archive this section also, since it's moot. The primary reason I don't accept the Apollo denial is that all manner of government conspiracies and secrets from that era were exposed, some at the time and some later, and I just don't think the government was smart enough to have pulled off such an elaborate hoax without someone finding out about it. Also, the explanations are consistent with the observations. The burden of proof is on the accusers, and I keep waiting for them to come up with something, but they haven't done it so far. Wahkeenah 21:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

It's also easy for people who did not live through an era to start questioning the validity of the historical record. That's fine, if there is proof to the contrary. I'm sure the Holocaust deniars (sp?) are convinced that they are right also. The comparison between the two stories is very similar. Those who deny the historical record look at it through a specific lens, with a pre-judgment that the authors of the historical record fabricated it. Obviously, the Holocaust denial is a quantum leap more noxious and offensive than the Apollo denial, but the approach to the subject matter is similar. Wahkeenah 22:07, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again, there is a HUGE difference between Holocaust Denial and landing skepticism. Imagine if only one US government agency had produced any eye-witnesses, or evidence for the holocaust. That would be similar. It isn't the case though. There are thousands of independent individuals with first hand testamony and evidence. The two ideas are not remotely similar. Carfiend 22:13, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

And those who deny the Holocaust would argue that all those "witnesses" are part of the conspiracy. Same thing. Wahkeenah 22:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but in order to believe that you have to believe that almost everyone in the world alive at that time is lying. It's a dozewn orders of magnitude more difficult than some people in one US govt agency. NASA controls all of the data, the US army (or whoever is supposed to have hoaxed WWII) didn't have control. Carfiend 22:16, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Not everyone in the world, just the "Jewish conspiracy", along with the U.S. Army. The Holocaust deniars don't say the camps didn't exist, just that they were mischaracterized and exaggerated. The Holocaust deniars have no problem accepting the idea of a large conspiracy. Wahkeenah 22:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Right, but the hoax proponents suggest a conspiracy simply within one govt agency. Not involving some huge 'Jewish conspiracy' or whatever. The HDs need to constantly draw more people in because everyone is lying. For the moon hoax, it's just some people in NASA. No one else. NASA is so tight with what they release, that you don't need more people. Carfiend 22:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, hoax proponents do not start from the point of view that NASA is lying - that's something you made up. They start from the point of view that we don't know whether NASA is lying, and look for evidence on either side. Carfiend 22:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

No, they focus on the alleged inconsistencies and refuse to accept the reasonable and consistent explanations. Wahkeenah 22:22, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the devil is in the detail - it all hinges on what you think is 'reasonable'. Carfiend 22:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

They constantly complain that NASA is the only source - which is not true - but I wonder how you could get around that complaint if you could take a time machine back to 1969. Would you require a representive of Mother Jones be on board, for "independent" verification? Wahkeenah 22:26, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Who else witnessed anything more than NASA TV and photos? Carfiend 22:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The flights were tracked from other stations around the world... oh, but they were in on the "conspiracy", weren't they? A worldwide conspiracy. Imagine that. Forgetting that, though, how would you do it if you could go back to 1969? Wahkeenah 22:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, who witnessed the landings, aside from NASA? What you are talking about is the tracking of some object. It's possible that the tracking is real, but it still doesn't prove human landing. Many hoax theorists accept robot landings, and if you accept that, you can have a robot mission that can be tracked with no people on board. The only evidence of human landing comes from NASA, so we're back with nothing. Carfiend 22:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Because NASA lied, ja? The problem is that the conspiracy theories get ever more elaborate, to try to account for the inconsistences in the conspiracy theories themselves, while the NASA account remains consistent. Wahkeenah 22:37, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. See Occam's Razor. (no, that's not Occam's cell phone. We're talking about a theory.) It's simply much, much easier to accept the landings as truth than to trouble with complicated theories and spend time searching for inconsistencies in NASA's account. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 ^{(T | C | @)} 23:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

There's som faulty logic here, you can't apply Occam's Razor to human duplicity. You wouldn't use Occam's Razor to solve a murder or a fraud, since the perpetrator my deliberately obfuscate. Carfiend 01:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't seem to me that NASA's account is more consistent than any give theory. One logical error you make is lumping all the theorists together. Each one is internally consistent, and even if some of them are not, only one has to be. The task is to see which theory (NASA's, or one of the hoax theorists) best fits the data. Given that NASA is the only agency that has ever claimed to get to the moon, you'd think some kind of evidence was in order, right? There are several nations that have tech for soft-landing on other planets, so that's not so difficult, but the one piece that is unique, human landing, there is no independent evidence for. That doesn't strike you as odd? Carfiend 22:42, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Not particularly. What could we have done? Sent camera crews with the astronauts? Oh wait--if we did, they would be part of the conspiracy too, right? --M1ss1ontomars2k4 ^{(T | C | @)} 23:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

The theory of the planets revolving about the sun within crystalline spheres was also "consistent", given sufficient tinkering, sub-spheres, etc., but turned out not to be the best fit for the observable facts. The hoax theories also fail on that account, because they have to keep adjusting them to fit the facts, whereas NASA does not, because their story is consistent; and the hard reality is that the hoaxsters have never been able to produce any actual evidence that the flights did not occur; no testimony, no secret film studio, no nothin'. Man being physically on the moon is not a problem. They had plenty of experience with men operating in the vacuum of space, thanks to the space-walks in Gemini, etc., so they had that technology down. In terms of getting there, they skirted the Van Allen belts, so that's not a problem either. Everything is accounted for. The fact that Kaysing might think it's a problem doesn't mean anything, since he couldn't even get his facts right about the rockets. Wahkeenah 00:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

So your main argument for it is that NASA's story seems more 'consistent' to you? Carfiend 00:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

My main argument is that hoaxsters have frequently demonstrated that they don't know what they're talking about. If they can't figure out the "waving flag" and the "starless photos", which are as obvious as can be, what possible hope do they have of interpreting more complex issues correctly? Wahkeenah 01:48, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

a couple of points:

1. title: not everyone is OK with it. Carfiend reference to the vote is pretty funny given his input on that particular topic. Obviously since te title comes up again and again it is not settled. 'Conspiracy theory' is an accurate descriptor and it is how the moon hoax is viewed my a significant number of folks. It may well be perjorative, but that doesn't make it inaccurate. Accuracy is what we should aim for.

Only if you are committed to the article representing only your POV. Carfiend 15:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. NASA as the sole witness: discounting those parts that took place in space, there were hundreds of other witnesses as should be obivous. just as obvious is that there could be no other direct witnesses to the landings becuase, well they were the first ones there.

?? Discounting the parts of the landing that took place in space?! I'm astonished that you're able to even type that statement. Discounting the parts that are disputed, nothing is disputed. Carfiend 15:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. NASA as one thing: NASA is not a monolith. It is/was comprised on thousands of people from military personal , to civilian sub contractors, and so on. Many, many bright people sincerely believe that they worked on a real proeject. Either all those people are lying or they were fooled by the conspiracy too, but arguing that only NASA witnessed the events and that NASA is a monolith is erroneous on it's face.

Feel free to elaborate on NASA's structure. Your assumptions about how many people are lying is speculation by Plait - no one claims that. Carfiend 15:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. No Historical Record: Just becuase you don't accept the historical record, for reasons only you can know, doesn't make it dissapear. Has every last document, photo, and inch of video perserved? No. It would be unreasonable to expect it to be so given the volume of the record, the vast number of people involved and the time passed. Has all the important stuff been preserved, perhaps not, and that a pity but it doesn't prove anything. Stuff gets lost. All human organizations are inherently limited by human fallibility. Any person who has been involved in organizations of any size knows this as a irrefutable truth.

No indepedent record of the landing, virtually nothing left except a photo album. Carfiend 15:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Treatment as a social phenomena is inherently biased: it is a social phenomena. Even if everything the conspiracy theorists say is true. Even if we never left the planet and the apollo program completly staged. the human elements engaged in this topic make it a social phenomena. That should be one thing everyone can agree on, but pro-hoax zealots refuse to engage in this discussion other that to dismiss it out of hand.

OK, then let's write it as a social commentry on why people still believe NASA after all this evidence has been presented. No? Of course not. We should present the claims, and counter claims, that's the ONLY neutral way to do it. Carfiend 15:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. General course of debate on the talk pages is non-productive and likely to be cynical manipulations on the part of conspiracy theorists (see Carfiend's host of inflamatory and misleading intrepretations of what has been written here for examples. This editor is obviously not engaging ethically in the topic.) and, in some cases, anti-conspiracy theorists. The conspiracy theorists clearly have no interest in improving wikipeida and no sense of creating a credible treatment of this topic. Articles like this one only serve to validate the claims of wikipedia detractors. This is article is a pyscophrenic sewer of bad writing, bad sources, and bad logic, more suitable to Ripley's Beleive It or Not than a credible and authoratative encyclopedia. This may fall on deaf ears but consider the wikipeida project as a whole instead of this pet project.

Your assumption of bad faith and accusations are disapointing. Carfiend 15:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. Holocause Denial as a template reread some of the arguments for using that article as a basis for improving this one. Heck, go whole hog and actually read the Holocaust denial article. Note how the claims of deniers (minority) get more space than the claims of majority.

In fact, they don't. The Project Apollo pages get huge coverage for NASA's story. Carfiend 15:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. 1. The facts are in dispute.

Agreed. Carfiend 15:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. 1. Both side are intractable. Neither one will likely convince the other.

I'm not convinced of this. Carfiend 15:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. 1. Evidence of either side is discounted by the other. This ain't changing. They're using different standards of evidence.

Not true. Most reasonable people have the same standard of evidence. Carfiend 15:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. 1. One side is in a clear minority.

Yes, but the exact numbers are not clear, and that should not mean that the article is a strict democracy. The article makes the minority position of the hoaxers clear. Truth is not a vote. Carfiend 15:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1. 1. The minority side is making the most contentious claim that discounts the historical record.

The claims are certainly contentious, and the article makes that clear. There is no independent 'historical record'. Carfiend 15:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Numskll 15:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

As usual, you bring up this offensive and inacurate claim. It has been responded to before, I can only assume you are trolling. There is no analogy between the two groups or the logic they use. See my response below. Carfiend 15:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trolling. There is a great deal of similarity as I and others have pointed out. Your POV is not ubiquitous or infallible. I'm sincerely interested in improving the article as part of a general desire to improve wikipeida. I'm sincerely concerned that your treatment of the topic and your misue of the arguments of others is contra-productive and speaks to the notion of this article as a soapbox for conspiracy theorists. My response reflects that and, to quote, "Your assumption of bad faith and accusations are disapointing" Why the blatent double standard? Let's discusss high level improvements. Numskll 15:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to believe you're not trolling, but it's tough when you keep bringing up the false accusations that moon hoax proponents are in some way like NAZIs, even if the similarities are in their methodologies. It's a smear, and not a good one - the allegation is wrong, see below. There are no similarities between the methodologies, and keeping on banging on that drum is making you look like a troll. Of course the article is not a soapbox, but the article must discuss the theory. Your idea that if we could get the evidence off the page it would be better is pathetic. Carfiend 15:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The article must discuss the theory What theory? I've yet to see a single consistent theory proposed by the Apollo-deniers beyond 'we never landed on the Moon'. I've asked a number of times what the theory is, but I don't remember you ever telling us. Mark Grant 15:43, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how to make it clearer than 'it's right there'. The theory is that, rather than going to the moon, NASA faked it. I think you must be using the word in a different way to the rest of us though - in what ways do you think that the accusations are not theories? Carfiend 15:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd say this page should conform to the general standard of similar 'we have no evidence, but isn't this suspicious?' denial theories, whatever that may be. Mark Grant 15:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that would be convenient for you, you wouldn't be left looking like you had no answers. Carfiend 15:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, you've misread my argument (seemingly as a convenience given your rhetoric that surronds this misreading ) and thrown in the Nazi card to boot. That's offensive. The similarites, as I and others have discussed, are strikingly valid and the wikipedia article, Holocause denial, is a good model for the way asymetrical views can be expressed. That's the similarity. No one is calling conspiracy theorists Nazi sympathizers (though I guess to take page from your book I personally don't have proof you are not so I guess you must be). Reread the arguments. Numskll 15:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I've read them. They are rubbish. There are no similarities between the two, and attempts to paint them as similar are academicly dishonest. It's a bad model for this page. Carfiend 15:56, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually the similarities I've pointed out are evident and the model for the article is a valid one. Your inability to see the value for wikipedia of adopting such a model for this article is disappointing and misguided. Wikipedia is supposed to be a source of unbiased information, not a fan site for fringe groups. Numskll 16:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Your claims of similarity are based on faulty logic and weak slurs. They are biased, and not constructive. Carfiend 16:17, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I sincerely invite you to reconsider. I believe the model is valid for reasons I've repeatedly cited. I'm puzzled by your inability to enage in a substantive way given your evident mastery of the material. I invite you to consider that your extreme POV might be the root of your failure. Numskll 16:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The model is bad because it comes from your assumption that "I disagree with the Holocaust deniers", "I also disagree with the Moon Hoax people". Therfore: "Both of them are lunatics who should be treated as though their ideas are some kind of social pathology. The two groups share nothing in common. One is a racially motivated hate group proposing a massive global conspiracy of Jews, the other is saying that a small group of employees from one US govt agency are lying. Carfiend 16:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

your characterization of my argument in no way reflects that argument, but you know that. Numskll 16:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

No, those were the only coherent elements I could pull out. Please enlighten me. Carfiend 16:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

for enlightenment: See above. See the similar discussion that was recently archived of use of the wikipedia Holocaust Denial article as a model for this one. Once you've demonstrated a grasp of those points beyond simple pulling out whatever ridiculous out-of-context claim suits your POV, perhaps we can move forward. Given that your misreading of this position has been so extremely biased, your tactics in this discussion page seemingly so disengenious, I doubt that will happen, but let's give it whirl shall we? Numskll 16:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If by 'forward', you mean 'slanted towards the Numskull Point of View', then no, I doubt I will want to 'give that a whirl'. Your rants about Nazis and how it would be good to treat moon hoax proponents the same way are inarticulate and inacurate. Your claims are simply wrong. Carfiend 17:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The logic used is similar, even if the motivation is different. For the neo-Nazis, the motivation is to cause controversy, seek publicity, and sell books. For the Apollo hoaxsters... well, maybe their motives are not very different, after all. Wahkeenah 17:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Your accusations about motive are, I presume, baseless? Do you have any evidence concerning their motivation? No, thought not. Carfiend 17:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You need to expand your sense of humour. Wahkeenah 18:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Apparently I do. For some reason I don't find neo-Nazis as hilarious as everyone else around here. Carfiend 18:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Gallows humor. Wahkeenah 18:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Carfiend wrote, For some reason I don't find neo-Nazis as hilarious as everyone else around here. and Your rants about Nazis and how it would be good to treat moon hoax proponents. ....Please remain civil. No one was comparing anyone to a Nazi and you know it. These kinds of accusations are obnoxious, callous, willfully duplicitous and certainly uncalled for. Please remain civil. Numskll 19:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Antarctica

What was Von Braun doing in Antarctica? What's the NASA story on this - I've looked, but can't find any explanation. Carfiend 22:48, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

• How do you know he was there? I've heard this repeated many times by the hoaxsters. It might be true, but if only Kaysing reported it, and his copycats, then there's no independent verification of it. Wahkeenah 00:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• Well, he definitely went there: http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/vonbraun/photo/13.html : oh, except that's a NASA site, so his trip to Antarctica must have been a hoax! Mark Grant 00:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Ironic, ain't it? The hoaxsters are relying on NASA evidence to demonstrate that Von Braun went to Antarctica, without any apparent independent verification. That's technically known as a paradox. Maybe he went to Antarctica to throw the hoaxsters off, when the rocks were actually being collected at Addis Abbiba. Wahkeenah 00:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You know, Wahkeenah, I love your witty sarcasm. I really do. It never fails to get me rolling on the floor laughing. You are insightful, each phrase a delicate epigram, change but one sylable, and the whole delicate joke falls apart. But please, just once, a straight answer? What does NASA say Von Braun was doing in Antarctica? Carfiend 00:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It says he was exploring. Is there a law against that? Where's your evidence to the contrary? Sarcasm aside (which ain't easy), the hoaxsters have implied something sinister in his trip to the south pole, but they have no actual evidence there was anything sinister about it. They simply decided that was the reason for his trip (i.e. to gather ersatz moon rocks), so it became another false piece in their false puzzle. Wahkeenah 00:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. It's at least half-witty. Wahkeenah 00:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

With what aim? Why would a rocket scientist working on a moon program go exploring at the south pole at a time when (presumably) there was a lot of work to do on the moon program? Does that really not interest you? "intrigued by exploration in space and on Earth" is enough of an explanation for NASA to send him there? Carfiend 00:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Since the hoaxsters are the ones questioning it, they are the ones who need to prove something sinister. Were ex-Nazis not allowed to either have hobbies or take vacations? I might be interested in it if you had some evidence that he was there for sinister purposes. If you've got it, bring it on. Wahkeenah 00:44, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a genuine interest, I'm not debating it with you, since I don't have any evidence about what he did there, I'm just intrigued, since it wasn't a hobby or a vacation, he was there on NASA time. They give no explanation, there's nothing to explain what he did there, or why he went, beyond the fact that he was intrigued. I can't prove he brought back 'moon rock', but it's odd that there is no story about him being there for some other purpose. Carfiend 00:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

This is another example of one of the hoaxsters' tricks. They raise a question based on some minimal information, and then expect someone else to do the research. Since this is of concern to you, then you should research the question. Maybe he talks about it in his autobiography, In German Or English, I know How to Count Down. Wahkeenah 00:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"Und I'm learning Chinese," says Verner Von Braun! Actually, I notice it was asked on the Von Braun page a year ago, with no response so far. It seems very few people know what he was doing there... Carfiend 01:16, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

That was nearly 40 years ago. How much do *you* recall of what you were doing 40 years ago? Anyhow, I don't know why he was there beyond what it says, and unlike Kaysing, I'm not going to seriously speculate on why he was there. But it's the typical conspiracy theorist approach (not you) to jump on something like this as being sinister, without any evidence to that effect. Wahkeenah 01:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If I'd been in Antarctica, I think I'd remember why. Carfiend 02:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Not if you were dead, as Von Braun is, I think. Wahkeenah 05:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If you wonder why I'm so negative on the hoaxsters, it's because I saw that 2001 Fox special. They started with the "waving flag" and the "no stars in the photos" nonsense, and I knew immediately that they were either incredibly ignorant, or liars, or both. I was truly offended by that program. It was a masterpiece of deception directed at anyone who knew nothing about the subject and might go, "Wow, dude, they might be onto something!" Wahkeenah 00:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not demanding that you research it for me, just enquiring whether you know. It's ok if it's a mystery to you too. Re Fox, mainstream media being in conspiracy against you is a sure sign of a conspiracy theorist! Carfiend 01:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Fox is a Ruppert Murdoch property, and as Chicago columnist Mike Royko once observed, "No self-respecting fish would be wrapped in Murdoch newspaper." Wahkeenah 01:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Your personal grudge against the mainstream media aside, we're no closer to getting an explanation to why the chief rocket scientist was awol in the only place where moon rocks are found on earth at a time when he should have been working overtime on the rockets. Unless, of course, the rockets wern't going to the moon, and the only problem was where to get moon rocks... Carfiend 02:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

We don't know that he was AWOL, and I don't know that it's been demonstrated that moon rocks can be found only (or even in) Antarctica. That might be true, but if Kaysing is the source, I would be skeptical. Meanwhile, it's a little hard to ask Von Braun, as I think he has gone to his Valhalla. Wahkeenah 05:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we don't know he was AWOL, but we don't have any explanation from NASA about why he was there at that crucial time. He's dead, for sure, which is convenient, but you'd think someone would be able to think up a real reason for him being there? Carfiend 05:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Moon rocks are not found only in Antartica, but it is easier to find them there. They are meteorites that are blasted off the Moon by large impacts. The current (Aug 2006) issue of Astronomy Magazine has an article about the process. The moon rocks found on the earth all show unmistakable signs of coming from a meteor, in direct contrast to the Apollo moon rocks. Bubba73 (talk), 05:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

See this. Interestingly, the first lunar meteorite recognized as such was in 1982. And more of them have been found in Oman than in Antartica. Bubba73 (talk), 05:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but again, your logic is weak. "Chemical compositions, isotope ratios, minerals, and textures of the lunar meteorites are all similar to those of samples collected on the Moon during the Apollo missions." you're using circular logic. We know they come from space, because NASA brought them back from space. 1982? Erm? No, you're wrong on that, it was 1912 iirc. In the 1960s, Antarctica was the place to go. You argue from circular logic - you only know what 'moon rocks' look like because NASA shows you what it claims are moon rocks. Everything you 'know' about moon rocks is based on a religious belief in what NASA feedds you. Carfiend 05:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure, so go where it's easiest to find them. Rather than supervising the rocket program. Your comment about 'Apollo moon rocks' is flawed because the 'moon rocks' that you are being shown (except you're not being shown them) are the ones that NASA has given you. NASA controls the 'moon rocks', so they can look however NASA wants them to look. Carfiend 05:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

But look - my question is simply "does anyone know why VB was in Antarctica". It's fine to attack me on my motivation for asking, how dare I? Isn't it obvious that NASA must have had a good reason? Why do you think they would tell you? It's ok that no one knows. Carfiend 05:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

If only you had actual evidence that the Apollo programs did not occur, you'd be onto something. Wahkeenah 12:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

In any case, I thought everyone knew that von Braun was visiting the secret Nazi launch site in Antarctica to get some tips on travel to the Moon. After all, the Nazis had had a lunar base for years by that time. Mark Grant 13:51, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Changing the subject? This thread is about trying to find out what VB was doing there. You continually try to drag the discussion off topic. I can't imagine why. Carfiend 15:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

But the only evidence we have that von Braun was in Antarctica is from NASA. And you claim that NASA lied about something as important as the Moon landings: so why should we believe them on something as minor as von Braun going to Antarctica? Or do NASA only lie when they say something you disagree with? Mark Grant 15:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

A good point, but one that I have an answer for. Much of the evidence for a hoax or cover up comes from inconsistencies in NASA's account. When you have a big lie, sooner or later the details drift out of sync with each other. Von Braun spending time in Antarctica while he should have been in Houston is only one. To be fair, your point is well made. All that the hoax proponents can ever really show without unfettered access to NASA is that NASA is lying. The specific truth will not emerge until a full investigation is allowed. Carfiend 16:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The hoaxsters have never demonstrated that NASA has lied about the Apollo program, and the assertion that Von Braun "should have been in Houston" is Kaysing's personal opinion. Speaking of which, what were the circumstances of Kaysing's 1963 departure? I have wondered whether he was canned (probably for incompetence), and whether his moon hoax fables were a way of getting revenge? That might give him more credit than he deserves, since the preponderance of evidence merely suggests that he doesn't know what he's talking about, technologically and otherwise. Wahkeenah 17:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Ron Miller claims Kaysing left Rocketdyne because of 'personal reasons'... which could be euphemism for anything, but probably nothing good. I'd guess, though, that Rocketdyne would be somewhat embarassed to employ someone who believed that the Apollo program was a hoax. And, as pointed out here on Wikipedia, he was apparently a graduate in English with no technical or scientific training. Hence an idea candidate for writing books about Moon hoaxes. Mark Grant 17:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, you're right that it is an assumption that two years before the first human trip to the moon the head of the rocket program should be on the job, but it seems a reasonable one. I'm open to other explanations about how he was prioritizing his time, but I'm not getting any. Your personal attacks on Kaysing are not something I'm interested in, I have no particular interest in defending him. Carfiend 17:53, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

And I'm sure that when you find the explanation, you will let us know. :) Wahkeenah 17:57, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Also, since the hoaxsters have spent plenty of time discussing the alleged "motivations" for NASA to fake the program, it is only fair to examine the "motivations" of those making such allegations. Wahkeenah 18:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The search for the truth! Carfiend 18:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

So the hoaxsters claim. But do we have any independent verification of that assertion? Wahkeenah 18:11, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

So back to the point (oh no!) what does NASA say VB was doing in Antarctica? Carfiend 18:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Why do you pretend to care? We all know that if NASA has some perfectly sane reason for him travelling there, you'll claim they're lying, and we all know that no matter how much we point out that von Braun was a) well known and b) not an expert on geology you'll still claim that he was there on a secret mission looking for 'moon rocks'. So what's the point? Why don't you do some research for once and tell us? Mark Grant 19:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Typical - when you're out of places to run on facts, speculate over the motives of people who are looking for answers! Gravitor 20:08, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Or looking to sell books. Wahkeenah 23:55, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Or steal 30 billion dollars?! Carfiend 06:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Now, now, Mr. Lehrer. By the way, although my own grandparents used to complain that this was a waste of money (as Tom Lehrer did), but they never questioned that it happened, and they were much wiser than I in many ways. Wahkeenah 06:29, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to say, I would love to find a way to get a Tom L ref into this article! Carfiend 06:33, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think it would be out of scope, unless he ever said something suggesting that Apollo was a hoax. He was mostly making points about the expenditure, and about Von Braun's WWII role. Listening to that record is a nice window into what was going on politically in 1965. He talked about LBJ practicing "escallatio" on the Vietnamese. If only he knew how much worse it would get. Then there's one song where he mentions Helen Gahagan and... Ronald Reagan??? Little did he know how that would turn out. However, his comments about George Murphy's attitude on immigrant near-slave labor seem surprisingly current, as does his song "Send the Marines". Speaking of out-of-scope, I reckon this entire paragraph is such. Bedtime! :) Wahkeenah 07:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree - it's out of scope - but you're right - it's frightening how on target he still sounds. Carfiend 15:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

paper

Is there anyone with access to this who can take a look at it for us? http://pus.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/31 Carfiend 17:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Moon hoax / holocaust denial parallels

I see these movements as basically identical:

1) Only one source - lack of skeptical review:

Only the Jews and Nasa saw what really happened. Moon rocks, mass graves, and records can all be fakes. (Okay, the bodies were real, but you had thousands of people who could have made the bones of dead Nazis look Jewish and bury them.) The Jews were found by battle weary solders who were willing to believe anything bad about the Nazis, similarly the US public didn't want to disbelieve Nasa during the cold war.

Yeah. Everyone in the world, masses of independent groups, or part of one relatively small US govt agency. The same. Oh, that's right, not the same at all! The second world war happened in Europe. There were many, many independent witnesses. The moon hoax apparently happened in space. No witnesses. Gravitor 20:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The difference here is that NASA is the only one to supply all this evidence. During and after the holocaust hundreds of thousands of people saw the carnage. The Germans themselves documented it. There are no similarities. Actually, the German documentaion of the holocaust is much more convincing than NASAs. Much less seems to have been 'lost'. The only way to make it similar is if the US army had 'discovered' concentration camps that no-one else did, not let anyone else see anything except some photos and a bit of video, 'lost' most of the data, but insists that it was real. Then I'd see the parallels, but in the real world? No. Carfiend 20:27, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

So you choose to believe that Nasa has lost most of the moon landing data for six moon landings? Do you have a reference for this? See #5 below. Algr

2) Thousands of people can keep a secret:

The events alleged in both cases would have required the cooperation of thousands of people under difficult conditions. The footage of the moon landings is far more convincing then movies that took hundreds of skilled people to create, and the number of effect shots is hundreds of times greater then what appeared in the 2001 movie. How many people would it take to produce all this footage, and wouldn't they all recognize their work if they were all "fooled"?

As has repeatedly been pointed out, the thousands figure is made up by Plait. Gravitor 20:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Right, more absurd speculation. It's not 'convincing', it's blurred and grainy. The original hi res has been conveniently 'lost'. In fact, the video is so bad, that for a book, they faked a composit because you can barely see what's going on on the video. Carfiend 20:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

3) Absurd placement of trust and suspicion:

Hwang Woo-suk told one lie about stem cells. His career is over. Nothing he ever says again will be accepted by the scientific community, and his whole university has lost respect over it. The works of holocaust and Moon hoax deniers are filled with invented evidence and testimony, misquotations, misrepresentations of fact, painful logical fallacies, and proposals that they know have been discredited. Nevertheless, they demand to be treated as scientific equals, and cry censorship when they aren't. They call for mistrust of Nasa, Allied and even German records without any similar verified history of lying.

Utterly irrelevant hand-waving. Look at a south Korean stem cell researcher! That's the same as the moon hoax! Erm, except it's not. Gravitor 20:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, what's the connection? Woo-suk got called out because his results were subject to peer review. NASA's have not been. I wonder why. Carfiend 20:29, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

4) Divergent standards of evidence:

Anyone can put up a web site claiming that Buzz Aldrin was an android or Hitler was secretly a Jewish pawn working to help build Israel, and if the site gets enough hits, Wikipedia will list the accusation. Only responses to these inventions must be held to the rules for the treatment of evidence. Despite claims of censorship and bias, I'm not aware of any hoax accusation that was ever removed from the article. But the comparison of the Moon hoax to Watergate was swiftly pulled, and not answered. Indeed almost every response present has been contested on technical grounds at some point.

The same standards of evidence are used by the hoax proponents. Only NASA wants to be excused from the requirement for independent evidence. They have no independent evidence of the landing. That on it's own is enough to raise serious questions. Gravitor 20:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. No independent witnesses. No ability to review the telemetry evidence. I think you're on shaky ground here. Carfiend 20:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

5) Why do it?

Holocaust denial is a way to attack Jews. Apollo denial has the same effect on science. No one contests the Roman Empire or Christopher Columbus's voyages because doing so won't make anyone angry. When Buzz Aldrin punched Bart Sibrel in the face, Sibrel reacted like someone who had just achieved his lifelong ambition. His first thought was to excitedly make sure that their had been video coverage. Here on Wikipedia, hoax proponent FGJ flat out admitted that he did not believe what he was saying. This is the central fact of both articles, and belongs in the first paragraph.

Algr 19:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Crap. What "FGJ" has to do with anything, or why writing from a neutral point of view rather than one's own POV is a crime, I don't know. This is more endless speculation on motives that is a favorite of NASA believers. Gravitor 20:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

??? It's because there is a hate group against scientists? Please stop trolling. Carfiend 20:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, actually there kinda is. Many. Militant creationism, irrational opposition to animal testing to the point of destroying labs and attacking scientists (yes, someone can be rationally opposed to animal testing, but clearly there are group out there who go far beyond this), all kinds of faith healers, etc. It appears to me that there is in fact a large segment of the population which is resentful, and times even hateful, towards science and scientists. (not accusing anyone here of being anti-science, I'm just saying that it's not trolling to recognize that science has many enemies) --Jaysweet 20:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

They're certainly not similar, but neither group seems to be very concerned about the harm they do to those who were directly involved (Engineers, Astronauts, Technicians, the military and their respective families)and, as I've stated repeatedly (after it was brought to my attention on these pages), the the wikipedia article on Holocaust denial does have a structure that we could utilize here to good effect, thus returning this article to a discussion of the topic at hand AND simutaneously making it not such an embarassment to the idea of a user edited encyclopedia at the same time. Let's discuss that possibility Numskll 19:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh come on. I'm trying to ween myself off this page, but you continually posting this crap that has been endlessly explained to be irrelevant, offensive and wrong is more than I can take. Please stop it. Gravitor 20:07, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Excellent points, the two are essentially identical in terms of credibility and likelihood. For the hoax proponents that disagree, please respond with facts and not emotion when disagreeing with this. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

So you want people to ignore how offensive the idea is? OK. The problem is that they are not similar, as has been addressed above. The holocaust deniers need to have almost everyone in on it, since it happened in Europe. NASA claims the landings happened on the moon, and admits that there were no independent witnesses. Case closed. The two are not related at all. Gravitor 20:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

A bit premature on the 'case closed', don't you think? There are more parallels than differences between the two structures. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:13, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

No, there really aren't. This discussion was already had above, and archived. Numskull is just trolling, as far as I can see, trying to revive a dead discussion. It looks most like an attempt to Google-bomb to me. Carfiend 20:23, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW, offense and the truth should not be compatible in a fact based conversation. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but that's not an invitation to make the most distasteful acusations you can think of again and again without any evidence. Carfiend 20:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

With respect, I find the accusations made by this page distasteful, but unlike you and Gravitor, I continue to WP:AGF. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:28, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying. But it is really difficult with the insistance on dragging up this NAZI bullshit all the time. Carfiend 20:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Nobody is calling the hoax proponents nazis, what we're doing is identifying the similarities in structure between the Apollo hoax conspiracy and the No-Holocaust conspiracy. Please understand the difference. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:38, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Except there isn't any, so the connection is totally spurious, so why keep bringing it up except to inflame the debate and cause offense? Classic troll tactics. Carfiend 20:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Please formalize your inference. Are you calling me a troll? I just need a yes/no. Thanks! - CHAIRBOY (☎) 20:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Still waiting, I need an answer. Thanks! - CHAIRBOY (☎) 21:06, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Algr started this heading. I posted afterwards. Carfiends explanations of why the Holocaust denial article would not make a good model for revisons to this one are as inflammatory as they are unconvincing and fail to sufficiently engage the topic -- not that Holocaust denial and the Apollo moon hoax conspiracy theories are the same but that the structure of the holocaust denial article may be a useful starting point for thinking about revision. Carfiends methods, invoking the spectre of Neo-Nazis at every turn, of 'argument' are obnoxious and they are ineffective . I'm just trying to improve this article. I'm not really sure what Google bombing is, or how this article relates to it, but I'd ask you to remain civil and cease accusing me of being a troll. Numskll 20:45, 24 July 2006 (UTC) I'm not calling anyone a troll, just saying that inflaming the debate by bringing up irrelevant, emotive slurs is a classic troll tactic which we should all avoid. Carfiend 21:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

innappropriate

Whether the comparison is reasonable or not, it is inappropriate to over-discuss this point UNLESS there is a source external to wikipedia that makes this argument to cite, in which case it can safely be discussed in an NPOV manner. until then lay off the holocaust denial stuff. i kan reed

you fail to see the point of the comparison which is carefully and repeatedly ariculated above. I'd suggest you read the archive more carefully. Lay off the selective reading comprehesion stuff. Numskll 00:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

On methodology

OK, I can see we won't be allowed to hold the mooted higher level editorial conversation, until the case for having that conversation has been thrashed out. Carfiend tells us that the only basis he can see for any proposed comparison between the two sets of sceptics is entirely in the imagination of Apollo boosters. Then he asserts that "the two groups share nothing in common", and offers us his account of their different beliefs as proof of that. Five scene setters I'd appreciate Carfiend's considered thoughts on:

• What a group believes, and the means by which they arrive at their beliefs, are two distinct, separable issues. OK so far?

Sure. Carfiend 01:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Great, thanks. Adhib 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• Myself and others here have not once claimed that Apollo denial and Holocaust denial are in any sense related in terms of their specific, political content, have we? Is there a single example I've missed, somewhere? If there isn't, claiming that we're trying to smear Apollo deniers as 'Nazis' is either tragically misunderstanding or deliberately misrepresenting our case, isn't it?

For the sake of this excercise, let's assume that's true. Carfiend 01:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Great, thanks. Adhib 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

• The parallel that is being drawn is purely the methodological one: that species of scepticism which expresses itself in a more-or-less random and potentially infinite series of objections to whichever mainstream story it scrutinises. Such scepticism is essentially impossible to disprove. No matter what the object of scrutiny is, it is always possible to invent another unanswered question, or to find a way to discount the answers already given. This was well known to Greek philosophers - it shouldn't be news here.

I disagree with your characterization. The Apollo sceptics are not random and infinate, they are in response to specific problems with NASA's story, and are limited pretty much by the number of errors in the narative that NASA presents. It would be easy to disprove if NASA had the evidence that it should have, for example, the original telemetry, hi res video, design documentation etc. Carfiend 01:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure I follow, here. Is it your case that the series of empirical errors Holocaust deniers 'discover' in the Holocaust story are of a different sort to those errors Apollo sceptics are interested in, and that's what differentiates their methods? Adhib 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This one? The HDs clearly start from the position of a racial hate ideology. Their whole story is built around a much bigger story of massive zionist conspiracy (as far as I can tell). On the other hand, there is no a priori axe to grind with the landing hoax. The theory stems from problems with NASA's 'evidence', such that it is. There is no underlying ideology, no a priori assumption of hoax, no global super-conspiracy (at least, not in the same sense). The two are unrelated except in the sense that all theories share certain superficial resemblances. Carfiend 21:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I have often thought that the Holocaust deniers argued that there was no proof of a program of extermination, while at the same time seeming to approve of the idea of it. That aspect is obviously different from Apollo denial. However, too little attention has been paid to the motives of Kaysing and the other Apollo-skeptic writers. Until someone does such a study (and maybe someone has, I don't know), to say that there "is no underlying ideology" behind the Apollo denial is a questionable and premature assertion. Wahkeenah 22:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Too funny! Carfiend 06:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Carfiend, it is clear to us both that Holocaust deniers have ulterior motives, stated or unstated. I won't go into what I think Apollo deniers' ulterior motives might be, as we would clearly disagree, but you'll want to account for their passion, somehow, if you want to claim they bring no agenda of their own to the material. Be that as it may, in terms of their behaviour - not their alleged beliefs - both sets of sceptics apply what looks to me like an identical method: niggling away at any detail of the story that captures their attention until they find an angle from which to cast doubt on it. When one doubt is proven baseless, they move on to another. Do you refuse to acknowledge that parallel? So far your argument for a methodological distinction between the two amounts to 'Holocaust deniers are snivelling liars, whereas Apollo deniers are Truth Seekers' - a POV it seems to me that Holocaust deniers could just as easily assert with the terms reversed. Can you dig any deeper? Adhib 17:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• The parallel method additionally has much in common with the features listed as characteristic of conspiracy theory.

Not true. This is a common accusation of people who lump all hoax theorists together as one group, and attacking the weakest, as if they were charactistic of all. Carfiend 01:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Asserting that the claim is not true doesn't prove it so - some proof is really wanting. If you'd be kind enough to review the features isolated in conspiracy theory, it's undeniably true that points 2,6,10,11 and 12 apply in at least some examples of Apollo denial, and 5 and 14 arguably do, too. Such things certainly apply also to Holocaust denial. That has to be relevant to a discussion of methodological similarities. Adhib 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Is this the section you're talking about? I dealt with this below. Since there are no similarities, it's irrelevant. Carfiend 20:37, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, no indeed - I meant to refer you back to the bullet point above, to do with the differences I think you have yet to define between the two scepticisms. Adhib 21:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Conspiracy theory features

OK, let's deal with this one once and for all. Again. These 'features' are so broad, that most theories meet at least some. Let's see how NASA and the whistleblowers do.

1. Initiated on the basis of limited, partial or circumstantial evidence;
Conceived in reaction to media reports and images, as opposed to, for example, thorough knowledge of the relevant forensic evidence.

Limited and partial evidence? Both NASA and the Hoax proponents meet this one. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

2. Addresses an event or process that has broad historical or emotional impact;
Seeks to interpret a phenomenon which has near-universal interest and emotional significance, a story that may thus be of some compelling interest to a wide audience.

Yep, both meet this one. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

3. Reduces morally complex social phenomena to simple, immoral actions;
Impersonal, institutional processes, especially errors and oversights, interpreted as malign, consciously intended and designed by immoral individuals.

No, neither really meet this one. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Wait , please expand on why the hoaxers don't meet this one. Don't they claim that the data Nasa claims is missing, in fact never existed? Don't they claim that various percieved oddities with the historical record are evidence of a plot, while Nasa claims that they are misinterpretations? Numskll 22:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, to have lost the entire telemetry and hi quality video for what is claimed to be the first trip outside earth orbit does strain credability, so sure, there might be a bit of that. Carfiend 23:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That assertion is an opinion, not an absolute. NASA is a bureaucracy, and they weren't flying the Apollo program any more, so there was not necessarily an urgent need to keep track of that stuff. Yes, they should have kept better track... and if they knew someone was going to make a big deal out of it, maybe (though not necessarily) they would have. You should maybe do some research to find out how much other engineering stuff from totally unrelated government agencies from 40 years ago is also missing, before drawing any inference about whether there is anything unusual about NASA having misplaced their own stuff that was, after all, obsolete by then. For a sort-of comparison, I saw a news story recently that one of the major networks had just uncovered a tape of raw footage of the attempted assassination of Ronald Reagan in 1981. Interesting stuff. And it had been thrown in a box somewhere and nearly forgotten about. Someone happened to find it, before it was about to be tossed. And this is a private, profit-driven organization; obviously a valuable piece of footage, yet they treated it like yesterday's newspaper. So it is not necessarily reasonable to argue that the way a moon hoaxster thinks NASA should have preserved and protected this info squares with the realities of the way old stuff is often (mis)handled. For another example, you sometimes hear about evidence in criminal trials having been lost after some years have passed. It's a reality. It happens. The hoaxsters have presented no statistical backing for their claim that there is anything unusual or mysterious about it. Wahkeenah 00:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

4. Personifies complex social phenomena as powerful individual conspirators;
Related to (3) but distinct from it, deduces the existence of powerful individual conspirators from the 'impossibility' that a chain of events lacked direction by a person.

No, not really either. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

5. Allots superhuman talents or resources to conspirators;
May require conspirators to possess unique discipline, unrepentant resolve, advanced or unknown technology, uncommon psychological insight, historical foresight, unlimited resources, etc.

Perhaps NASA meets this, they do claim to have done something no one else did. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't this,'unique discipline, unrepentant resolve', go to the willingness by hoaxers to believe that Nasa could hold such a grand conspiracy together? I ask because I querstion the fact that the hoax hasn't been blown wide open by now. Numskll 22:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

:No, not really. It is unravelling right now. Carfiend 23:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

6. Key steps in argument rely on inductive, not deductive reasoning;
Inductive steps are mistaken to bear as much confidence as deductive ones.

Nope, although perhaps NASA relies on this, eg "we have an LEM in a museum, so we must have gone to the moon". Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

7. Appeals to 'common sense';
Common sense steps substitute for the more robust, academically respectable methodologies available for investigating sociological and scientific phenomena.

NASA uses this somewhat, the hoax proponents do sometimes. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

8. Exhibits well-established logical and methodological fallacies;
Formal and informal logical fallacies are readily identifiable among the key steps of the argument.

Both NASA and the hoax proponents claim the other does this. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

9. Is produced and circulated by 'outsiders', often anonymous, and generally lacking peer review;
Story originates with a person who lacks any insider contact or knowledge, and enjoys popularity among persons who lack critical (especially technical) knowledge.

No, not really, people involved with NASA contractors and NASA employees propound the theory. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

10. Is upheld by persons with demonstrably false conceptions of relevant science;
At least some of the story's believers believe it on the basis of a mistaken grasp of elementary scientific facts.

NASA and the hoax proponents claim this of the other. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

11. Enjoys zero credibility in expert communities;
Academics and professionals tend to ignore the story, treating it as too frivolous to invest their time and risk their personal authority in disproving.

The hoax has this characteristic. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

12. Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored or accommodated through elaborate new twists in the narrative;
When experts do respond to the story with critical new evidence, the conspiracy is elaborated (sometimes to a spectacular degree) to discount the new evidence, often incorporating the rebuttal as a part of the conspiracy.

Not really. No ellaboration has really been necessary. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

But you'd agree that this is a common charge made against hoax proponents, right? Doesn't just such a debate take up a considerable part of the talk pages here? Numskll 22:54, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The hoax theory does not get more complicated in response to 'evidence', because no evidence is ever introduced. Carfiend 23:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

But you'd agree that that is precisely what 'pro-NASA' people say, that the hoax gets more complicated. NASA does claim to produce evidencee, even if you don't accept it? Wouldn't you agree that part of the assertation is true?

It does get more complicated. To every response, they have to come up with a further flight of fantasy to try to explain it away. To use a simple example, they start talking about the "waving flag". When that is demonstrated to be false, they say, "Maybe the film was doctored." They say there is no independent evidence of the flights. When that is demonstrated to be untrue, their next step is to say, "Maybe they launched unmanned vehicles with phony signals coming from them." All of these "maybes" presented without any actual evidence in support of them. It reminds me of creationists who explain the dinosaurs by saying "Maybe Satan put the bones in the ground to deceive us." In fact, the existence of several moon hoax "theories" are a symptom of this situation. When you start with false assumptions, you can end up with many conflicting "reality constructs". If you accept the historical record of the Apollo program, there is no inconsistency, nor can the hoaxsters demonstrate that there is any. Maybe the whole thing was a gigantic hoax. But the hoaxsters have presented no evidence of it whatsoever. I keep waiting. Where is it??? Wahkeenah 00:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. The 'film was doctored' claim is not in response to a response about the flag. Those are two separate issues arrising from issues in NASA's evidence. Gravitor 16:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I was referring specifically to this comment: "'the flag is waving because Buzz is shaking it' vs 'Buzz is trying to stop the flag from waving', but since the video is NASA anyway, and we don't have the original hi-res, we can't really know. Carfiend 21:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)"

Thank you. See Rebuttals provided by experts are ignored. In that light, don't you think that the pro hoaxers do meet this criteria 70.160.231.253 00:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

13. The conspiracy is claimed to involve just about anybody;
Conspiracy tales grow in the telling, and can swell to world-spanning proportions. As the adherents struggle to explain counter-arguments, the conspiracy grows even more (see preceding item). Conspiracy theories that have been around for a few decades typically encompass the whole world and huge portions of history.

No, it's a small group who are accused. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

14. The conspiracy centers on the "usual suspects";
Classical conspiracy theories feature people, groups or organizations that are discriminated against in the culture where the story is told. Jews and foreigners are a common target. Likewise, organizations with a bad or colorful reputation feature prominently, such as the Templars, the Nazis and just about any secret service.

No, not really. Carfiend 20:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

These are frivolous ripostes, not arguments, Carfiend, and I've apparently distracted you from the issue I think is decisive, which was my point just above this new sub-head. I hope you can muster the patience to entertain that point, too. Adhib 20:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

They are not frivolous, except in the sense that you bandy around accusations that, when examined, look that way. I'll take a look at what you point out. Carfiend 20:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I understand that your patience is sorely tested, here. But please note I specified which of the features undeniably apply to at least some examples of Apollo scepticism. Your ripostes would be an answer of sorts to a point I am neither making nor interested in making (that the methodologies of Apollo deniers and Apollo boosters are incomparable). For now, I'll assume you were distracted by your passion for the issue, and were not deliberately engaging in sleight of hand, there. Adhib 21:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It was a response to an accusation you made. If you are going to randomly sling accusations, please don't complain when they are debunked. Carfiend 23:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

For the second time, I recommend you reconnect with what I said, not what you recall I said - here, I'll even quote you the relevant point: "it's undeniably true that points 2,6,10,11 and 12 apply in at least some examples of Apollo denial, and 5 and 14 arguably do, too. Such things certainly apply also to Holocaust denial. That has to be relevant to a discussion of methodological similarities." To this point, you have raised no answer, acting as if I had asked a different question and pretending I have claimed all 14 features in the list are of relevance to this discussion. Milk and two sugars? Adhib 17:53, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wait. i just want to point out that in the post atomic bomb era there as a sort of reaction against science, against which the point above could been seen as valid. Look at the charactures of scientists in media from the era. Numskll 22:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a vast conspiracy to slur science. More comedy from the pro-NASA front. Carfiend 23:22, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That bit of hyperbole wasn't responsive, re 'vast conspiracy to slur science.' So your contention is that, following the atomic bomb, there was no anti-science lietmotif in populer media and that this non-existent motiff therefore could not be construed as a positvie indicator towards point 14 on part of the hoax theorists? What about the flying saucer scares? Couldn't they too be part of a broader anti-science sentiment?

• The parallel in methods gives rise to a parallel editorial problem for wikipedia - how to structure an article in order to handle the kinds of controversy which emerge in these circumstances. Holocaust denial has a structure which is proving stable, in a much higher-stakes controversy than this one.

Since there is no 'parallel method', there is no editorial problem. We simply have to report the facts, as the NPOV policy tells us. Anything different is the wrong approach. Carfiend 01:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I think this conclusion prejudges the reasoning you have yet to set out here. I appreciate this isn't where you want to focus your energies, but perhaps you might think of it as your chance to put the record straight on the methodological question.Adhib 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It seems like there needs to be a distinction made between comparing Holocaust denial with Apollo denial, which I can't disagree is, in fact, offensive; vs. comparing the article about Holocaust denial with this article. It should be possible to model one article on the other without drawing any direct comparison between Nazis and Apollo questioners. However, maybe you would want to post a proposed article on that subject here first, and see if it flies. Wahkeenah 23:33, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I think with Carfiend's full agreement that we may separate what one believes from how one comes to that belief, we are entitled to discuss this purely in terms of methodology, not in terms of this or that political association. Adhib 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Enough already. This has all been dealt with and debunked. Let's move on. Carfiend 01:01, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

What's the rush, already? Let's get this settled. Adhib 19:42, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

There's no rush. Look at the archives. It's been debated to death already, and completely debunked. Carfiend 19:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Only in your opinion. However, maybe the solution to all this brouhaha is to have two articles: one that outlines the alleged hoax the way the hoaxsters want it to read, and one that answers every question they bring up. Wahkeenah 20:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Consider what Wikipedia:content forking says. Bubba73 (talk), 20:12, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point. I'm just wondering if it would make sense in this situation, to reduce the combativeness. Wahkeenah 20:18, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

While we're on the topic, B, I think my earlier suggestion escapes your forking warning on grounds of Wikipedia:summary style. Adhib 20:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I knew I had seen it somewhere before. :) Wahkeenah 20:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm concerned that the motivation is partisan, and not really concerned with article quality (except the sense that you think that an article that more closely conforms to you POV would be better quality). If the issue is length, then I have no a priori problem with the summary style, but I think it would have to be done very carefully. Carfiend 20:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate that this would be a concern. But consider - if we can frame the topic in a way which is acceptable to all parties, and reserve empirical disputes to a summary page, the blizzard of reverts here will dramatically fall - as it can be demonstrated has occurred in the example which dares not speak its name - and we can, I think, move up to a new level of refinement of the content here. Adhib 21:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, sumarize it on the main page, and put the details on another page? I think that would be OK, as opposed to all pro-hoax on one page and anti-hoax on another. BTW, there is so much talk here, I can't read but a fraction of it. Bubba73 (talk), 20:44, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's a good idea, it sounds like a way for the NASA camp to wriggle out of trying to answer difficult questions. One of the strengths of this layout is that you can easily see which questions NASA has a good answer for and which one they don't. Gravitor 16:47, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the idea was to give the moon hoaxsters some "wriggle room", as it is they who keep whining about how this page is too "biased". If they had a page of "their own", they could put write it in a way they consider unbiased. Then a separate page could carry the challenges and responses/explanations. Perhaps that approach would indeed give too much credence to the hoaxster side. Wahkeenah 17:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It's one megillah after another, but if it cuts down on the revert wars, hopefully it's worth it. Wahkeenah 20:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It has to do with the fact that there is much arguing over how the page should be constructed. But we can continue on this same mode, that's fine. Wahkeenah 20:33, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Things that NASA has in common with Neo Nazis

1. One of their senior staff was an SS Officer, and was involved in slave labor camps. 2. Neo Nazis have no independent evidnce for their claim, neither does NASA. 3. NAZIs were accused of killing people who disagree with them. So is NASA. 4. Do I need to go on? This is offensive, stupid and wrong. It prevents real debate by inflaming the dialogue. It is a troll tactic, and should stop. Carfiend 20:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you want the NASA page. Your comment doesn't seem to have much to do with the topic at hand. and BTW, don't you think what your doing is trolling? Numskll 20:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right. I was doing it to prove a point, which I should not have done, but your insistance on poisoning the well with your offensive suggestions is getting beyond tollerance. Carfiend 20:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Please review WP:POINT. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 21:01, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, as I just said above, in my irritation, I sunk to those same tactics to prove a point. I should not have done that. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Carfiend 21:03, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I repeat, my aim is to improve the article. I think the parallels I and others have drawn could be productive in revising this article to be more encyclopedia like and less fan page like. Please consider how your POV might be causing you to take offense where none was intended. Please consider how your direct persona attacks against those who disagree with you might be causing some offense of there own. Please consider that that others may also hold sincere opinions that may not agree with your own. Please consider that your insistence that a thing is true/fasle does not make it so and that otthers may not be convinced by your assertations but lack of being convinced doesn't make them a troll. please try to remain civil Numskll 21:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I am remaining civil. I don't think we have anything more to say on the whole NAZI thing. You have your POV, which seems unshakable by actual fact, and I have drawn my conclusions, having looked at your suggestions. We are not in agreement, and I do not see this discussion going anywhere positive. Thank you. Carfiend 21:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Some wiki writers are touchier than others here. I've occasionally had some of them run to "mommy" when my own comments went over the line. That's something I typically won't do; I would rather settle it face-to-face (or technically keyboard to keyboard), if possible, unless someone gets into an obnoxious revert war, which does happen here from time to time, but it's been far worse on some other pages. However, be very careful about labeling someone a sockpuppet, as that is apparently considered a very offensive charge on this website, unless you can prove it. I don't take it personally, but many do. Wahkeenah 23:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, while you didn't point that out to SA, you did speak up when you did not have to when he was acusing people. Kudos. Carfiend 00:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

But you're the only person calling anyone Nazis, and your POV certainly doesn't seem to have been changed in the slightest by the rebuttal of pretty much every claim you've made of 'evidence' of lunar landings being hoaxed. But then if someone was interested in facts, why would they be an Apollo-denier? Mark Grant 23:24, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

The only person I am calling a NAZI is Verner Von Braun, and he was a NAZI, so I don't see that as a problem. You claim rebuttal, but I don't accept that - I don't find your explanations convincing. Carfiend 00:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I always thought the Tom Lehrer song was a little unfair, though it was certainly funny. I don't know that Wernher Von Braun was ever accused of war crimes (that peculiar distinction between "fair" and "unfair" killing in wartime), he was just doing what he was told to do, flying his Vergeltungswaffe rockets (a.k.a V-rockets; ya gotta love them German words). He and his cohorts were both snapped up by the Americans and the Soviets, so those countries were being just as "expedient" as those men were. In reviewing the article, it occurred to me that his death at a relatively young age, apparently following a vehicular accident, is something the hoaxsters overlooked. Given their tendency to read between the lines, I'm surprised they missed the chance to claim he was threatening to speak out. Wahkeenah 01:25, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

It is, perhaps, unfair to treat him as a NAZI, since he was, in many ways just doing his job. However, he was involved with slave labor camps, and his apparent willingness to work for the NAZIs and then the west shows what I think is a chillingly mercenary streak (just my opinion). He was never accused of war crimes. He designed weapons that could only really be used to attack large civilian populations, but did not make the decision to use them, and in any case, was far more useful as a scientist alive and free. Re his death, it is mentioned by some theorists, I just don't think anyone has got around to writing about it here. Carfiend 01:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes... so many conspiracies, so little time. Wahkeenah 20:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

paper

Not surprisingly, the one thing on this page relating to facts, and not nazi smears, got no response. Is there anyone with access to this who can take a look at it for us? http://pus.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/13/1/31 Carfiend 17:25, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I can't access it. And from the summery, I don't see what it has to do with the moon hoax. Algr 21:05, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

It's about what was happening in Antarctica in the late 60s. I am trying to find out what NASA says VB was doing there. Carfiend 21:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Kudos. Wahkeenah 23:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

This would probably be a good source, but it's not on the web: "Space Man's Look at Antarctica," Popular Science, Vol. 190, No. 5, May 1967, pp. 114-116, 200 (from http://history.msfc.nasa.gov/vonbraun/vbbiblo.html). Of course I'm sure it's all faked anyway. Mark Grant 00:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I requested a biography of von Braun today through inter-library loan. Perhaps that will settle it. Bubba73 (talk), 00:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

von Braun was a remarkable person. Fifteen years before anyone knew that there were lunar meteorites on Earth, he made a trip to Antarctica and gathered over 1,000 pounds of them - even though only about 90 such stones have been found since! And the ones he found did not show signs of a fiery trip through our atmosphere, unlike the others. And unlike the others, the surfaces of his did show signs of being exposed to space for billions of years. And he was able to fool geologists all over the world. Or else all of the geologists are in on the conspiracy. Just like all of the astronomers and physicists have to be in on the conspiracy with that change in the surface gravity of the moon they had to pull off. All of the encyclopediasts have to be in on it too. And I just realized that I'm part of the conspiracy, and I shot JFK too.

Thank you! Appreciate it, Carfiend 01:00, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

JFK

If you want a structure guide, this is pretty good John F. Kennedy assassination. Carfiend 20:59, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

• I was also thinking of the JFK situation, in lieu of the hot-button topic of the Holocaust. Again, though, the parallels are debatable, because there was immediate suspicion of a plot by the Soviets, and the government went to great pains to paint it as a lone act in order to downplay anything that could trigger an international incident. The family also did their best to keep a lid on things, and all the secrecy fed the conspiracists. At the time, few openly discussed the possible Mafia connection, which sounds more plausible than most of the theories. However, after all this time, despite boatloads of suspicions in all manner of contradictory directions, posed by endless theorists trying to sell books, nothing substantive has emerged to definitively demonstrate that it was anyone other than Oswald. So, in that sense, it does make a good parallel: tons of questions, and ultimately you go back to the original and realize that that's the way it was. Wahkeenah 23:20, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree - although I would say that most people have resigned themselves to the fact that key evidence has been destroyed at this point, and we will probably never know the truth, rather than accepting the govt's story at face value. Carfiend 00:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The same was said of the Lincoln assassination. Wahkeenah 01:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Carfiend 02:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

'Intelligent Design' may be another. Mark Grant 23:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

That depends on the level of Revert Wars on that page and/or the Evolution page (which I obviously have not checked lately). If the editors have found a way to keep things relatively calm, it would be worth a look. Wahkeenah 23:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Intelligent design is a little different, it is an overtly religious campaign to take control of education and create a wedge on separation of church and state, it's not really an argument about creation. Carfiend 00:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

but not Kennedy assassination theories - there is no critical examination of most of the theories. Bubba73 (talk), 00:51, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

There are so many, and contradictory, it's hard for a debunker to know where to begin. I used to wonder about it also, although I was convinced from Day 1 that Oswald was involved, due to the attitude he copped to the press while under custody (can you believe they allowed a brief, live interview with the accused assassin? Things were different then) and I remain convinced that he was a triggerman if not necessarily the only triggerman. But the parallel with the Apollo hoax story is not all that parallel, although I'm fairly certain that a fair number of JFK conspiracists turned their attention to Apollo once the JFK story began to run out of steam. Wahkeenah 01:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, as with most cover-ups, many theories are proposed - without full access to the information, th truth may never be known. In the case of the JFK killing, things like the 'magic bullet' indicate something is wrong, but not who perpetrated the killing. It's similar with the NASA hoax - the evidence points to a cover-up, but the details cannot be known without more information. Obviously that will not be forthcoming until a full and independent review can be undertaken. Carfiend 02:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I see a parallel in the theories. In JFK there are many "theories", but there are no alternative theories that are (1) consistent with the facts (2) have evidence to support them, and (3) are detailed enough to be verifiable. By that, I mean that they are all vague: "the Cubans did it", "the Mafia did it", "the CIA did it", "the Russians did it", "the federal reserve did it", etc. The "theories" listed in this article are similarly vague. Bubba73 (talk), 02:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

There is certainly general common ground: (1) many and varied and contradictory theories, each based on a list of "evidence" that is chosen for the purpose of fitting the theory; and (2) no actual evidence, the absence of which is also claimed as "evidence" by the dissenters. Wahkeenah 03:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep - all we need to do is to say it leads to child mollestation and terrorism, and we'll be in good shape! Carfiend 05:06, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

And Nazism. Wahkeenah 05:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

(That sarcastic remark assumes I have any clue what you're getting at, which I don't.) Wahkeenah 05:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Seems like you do! Just list a lot of irrelevant, unrelated bad things, and you're done with your counterarguments! Carfiend 05:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, thanks for clearing that up. Wahkeenah 11:32, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, they are in outline form here, so of course they are vague. You don't want to reproduce the books here do you? Carfiend 02:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

On the JFK conspiracy page you often see a point razed in one section, and a counter argument many paragraphs away. I think we already have a better structure, with each issue dealt with to its conclusion. Another difference is that the JFK conspiracy proponents have far stronger arguments, with no insulting ones like Nasa doesn't know better then to shield the film from radiation. I think it is a good idea to have a section comparing the moon hoax to other conspiracies, including real ones like Watergate and Piltdown Man. Algr 17:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

In an argument this tense, things being razed is not that uncommon, unfortunately. Carfiend 06:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• The thing to do is remain calm, and try to get past tense. Wahkeenah 12:09, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I know I complain, but I'm actually beginning to like you! Carfiend 00:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't get used to it. >:) Wahkeenah 00:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

naming convention

I HAVE IT! I saw you use the word skeptics, and it fits perfectly "apollo mission skeptics" when introduced and later in the article changed to "skeptics". Additionally "Skepticism" when talking about the notion. It sounds NPOV and accurate to me. I'd like to hear other people's opinions first though. i kan reed 20:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to 'Apollo skeptics', or 'Landing skeptics'. Carfiend 20:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I could live with that, though I think it has dignified philosophical overtones that are somewhat undeserved. Adhib 20:14, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You're right, but if it would reduce the contention, it would work. Except I would suggest "Apollo skepticism", unless you want to make it specifically about the hoaxsters themselves. You can't bring "landing" into it because some of the hoax hypotheses concede that landings occurred. Wahkeenah 20:17, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Landing skepticism works, even those who believe the landing happened are skeptical that it happened in the way it was described. Carfiend 20:39, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"Apollo [mission] skepticism" or "Apollo [mission] landing skepticism"? I like the first one, since the second one is implicitly self-limiting in scope. Wahkeenah 20:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

You mean association with the skepticism movement? That doesn't bother me too much because they are the originators of the phrase "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". Just because I personally beleive that there is such proof doesn't mean that the notion doesn't fall under skepticism. If you mean that the term skepticism is somehow anagonistic I'd like to see an example of it used in that light. To me, it seems apt, without being indicative of anything attacking or defensive inherently. i kan reed

I mean, rather, that it might tend to muddle (in a way that seems overly generous) two entirely different attitudinal stances - the respectable philosophical one, with fine intellectual antecedents, established strengths, weaknesses and appropriate applications, on the one hand ... and a kind of hayseed obstinacy in the face of anything asserted beyond the hayseed's immediate experience. But as I say, I can live with it. Adhib 20:31, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Admittedly, if you read the ravings of Kaysing and his devotees, "hayseed" often fits. I don't think we could call the page "Apollo hayseeds", though. Wahkeenah 20:36, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

yes, but if you didn't disagree we could be missing something important already. While I agree that there is obstinance among people with these views, which I must confess I personally beleive to be ridiculous, calling them obstinant is opinion and NPOV 100%. Now, if you had a quote from a respected member of the science community regarding obstinence(I beleive there may have been something like that in popular science), that could be included on a section about how they are viewed by a certain subset of people. It is best not to include any inherent attack in the name given to the beleivers, and I don't see skeptics carrying sufficienct positive connotations to be undue and inherent praise of someone. i kan reed 20:43, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

"Apollo skepticism" indeed confers more dignity than it deserves. This is following the Christian concept that if you treat someone with dignity, over time they might actually acquire some. Wahkeenah 20:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

This humanist can say a hearty Amen to that. Adhib 21:58, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

And, in the interest of equality, Awomen. :) Wahkeenah 22:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC) (I stole that one from Mark Russell). Wahkeenah 22:15, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

getting back on topic, in addition to changing the interior of the article, would changing the article name to reflect this ALSO be a good thing and leaving a suitable redirect here?

Well, what is the actual proposed title? Carfiend 22:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Apollo Program Hoax Theories Numskll 23:13, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I was going for "apollo missions skepticisms"- brief, generally descriptive, not inherently unkind, and a straightforward summary of the idea. i kan reed 04:16, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

As my Uncle Wernher used to say, "Sehr gut!" Wahkeenah 04:25, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

No, the theories relate specifically to the moon landings, not the entire program. Carfiend 23:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The entire program was about getting to the moon and landing on it (and returning). That was its purpose. They are synonymous. Wahkeenah 00:21, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I thought of that too, Carfiend, but don't some versions of the theory claim that a real attempt to reach the moon was never tried? Thus, the reference to the program as a whole. 70.160.231.253 00:32, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard anyone skeptical of Apollo 7 or 9, which stayed in low earth orbit. When I've asked if they are skeptical of Apollo 8, 10, or 13, which went to the moon but didn't land, I can't get a straight answer. Bubba73 (talk),

I think the title needs to contain the phrase 'moon landing' to be descriptive of the real crux of the theories. Quite honestly, I don't see what's wrong with the current title - no one has really explained what the issue is. Carfiend 06:26, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

You'd have to ask the guy who temporarily renamed the article a week or two ago. Wahkeenah 11:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

To me, it doesn't really matter either way whether it's "moon landing" or "apollo missions," but in the interest of trying to get this figured out, "apollo missions" makes slightly slightly more sense because it specifically indicates nasa(most people don't seem to care about anything else landing on the moon)

I like it the way it is. I'd vote to keep it, unless someone has some pressing reasons why they hate it. Gravitor 16:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

You'd have to ask the guy who temporarily renamed the article. I'm not married to any particular title. Wahkeenah 16:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

That was me. I changed the title to something like 'Apollo Moon hoax conspiracy Theories' it stayed that wway for about 45 seconds. before it was changed back AND I was accused of being a POV jihadist for daring to make that change without having it vetted by the moon hoaxers. My point in making the change is that I think conspiracy theories was more accurate. The discussion above on conpsiracy theories would seem to bear that out. I vote let's change it back. to 'Apollo Moon Hoax Conspiracy Theories' unless we can find acceptable evidence that:

1. The hoax actually occurred. Then we can delete the Apollo program page and put this one in its place.
2. It turns out the hoax theorists bleive that the hoax perpetrated by only one person or by a group of people acting separately without communicating with each other.

I know some people who don't believe in the hoax think that calling the hoax idea a 'theory' is glorifying it, because, in part, hoaxers don't present an idea of what actually happened but instead, what didn't happen. I think the theory is that the hoax occured as a result of a conspiracy. That makes the title a good one. Numskll

The current title: "Apollo Moon landing hoax accusations" is accurate and clear. I vote for it. People are making accusations, but not presenting a theory of what happened instead. (Denying a theory is not a theory in itself.) I don't recall that anyone is denying the Apollo program, just the parts that happened outside the radiation belts. Algr 21:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The idea that the hoax happened is a theory: 'NASA faked all or part of the moon landings.' The landings themselves, in the event they happened, are not theories but historical facts, RE: 'Denying a theory is not a theory in itself'. If they didn't happen, then they are hoaxes, still not theories. I don't believe that 'accusations' is as precise or a desrcriptive as 'theories' because the latter doesn't take into account the respnses to those accusations in the same way as the former does. Also using the phrase 'conspiracy theory' links the hoax phenom to the larger social entity, as is appropriate given the discussion above on conspiracy theories. 70.160.231.187 22:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• I argue that they are accusations, as opposed to the normal concept of a "theory". They are not a true "theory", more of a "hypothesis". However, "conspiracy theory" fits. However, it's pointless to try to force that title, as it is one step short of saying "looneys". Wahkeenah 23:58, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a typical piece of nonsense. In what way is it not a theory? Carfiend 00:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It's not a scientific theory, which involves making observations and hypotheses, then conducting repeatable experiments and/or making further observations to confirm or adjust or disprove the developing principles of the theory. It might be a "theory" in the layman's way of using the term (hence the false statement about evolution that "it's only a theory";; they think a "theory" is a "hypothesis"). The Apollo flights were not a "theory", either; they were a technology and engineering achievement. Nor were the reported events a "theory", they were well-documented and well-covered historical events. I wish you had been around then; you would have a different perspective. Wahkeenah 00:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Two things. 1. Yes, it is a theory which makes observations and hypotheses, and 2. NASA's 'theory' does not meet this criteria. The theory is that NASA faked the landings. This generates testable hypotheses like: "If the landings are fake, we should not be able to find detailed, hard to fake evidence like the telemetry data." If we can find the telemetry data, we can reject the hypothesis that the mission was faked. "If the landings are correct, we should not find inconsistencies in the photographic and video presented". We can reject this, because of all the inconsistencies. etc etc. Carfiend 03:15, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Methodology, redux

Just there, the Apollo deniers' methodology once again stands revealed as indistinguishable from certain other types of 'alternative theorists' whose identity we dare not mention. The relationship between conviction and arbitrary evidence (sorry, 'theory' and 'hypthesis') is identical. Adhib

As I said, the Apollo saga is not a "theory", it's a set of events. The converse of the first "If", which you would like to use to imply fakery due to their absence, is not logically valid. The second "If" does not preclude fakery (or allegations thereof). To put it a little more tartly, they can't even tell if a flag is waving, so how easy would it be to fake some data for them? Therefore, the presence or absence of such data is irrelevant. The third "If" implies inconsistencies, which have been alleged but not demonstrated beyond doubt. Obviously, some people see things differently than others do. Therefore, the alleged inconsistencies are insufficient. Wahkeenah 03:46, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You assert the claim that it's not a theory again, with no evidence. Then you go into whether or not you agree with the theory. We're not talking about whether you believe the flag is being shaken by Buzz or blown by a fan, we're talking about whether it's a theory. Carfiend 06:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You don't really need evidence beyond knowledge of the language we all share (to varying degrees) to 'prove' the Apollo landings are not NASA's theory. Either they happened, in which case it is a historical fact, or they didn't happen, in which case it is a lie, a hoax, or a conspiracy. The hoax proponents do a have a theory or theories, even if they are not fully articulated (I don't know whether they are not); That elements witihn NASA faked the moon landings to varying degrees for various reasons. The fact that they don't accept or recognize or value the evidence that NASA and others have produced is another matter entirely. Numskll 19:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, obviously, to the extent that NASA is practicing religion rather than science, it does not have a theory, but to the extent that we are trying to determine the truth, we have two theories, the hoax theory, and the landing theory. NASA promotes one, the landing skeptics the other. Various data is available, and which theory most closely fits the data is contested. Carfiend 22:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[Carfiend], your response fails to engage the topic athand and seems designedto be offensive and absurd. Please review the topic and revise your tone. Numskll 00:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

From the wikipedia article, Theory. In common usage, people use the word "theory" to signify "conjecture", "speculation", or "opinion." In this sense, "theories" are opposed to "facts" — parts of the world, or claims about the world, that are real or true regardless of what people think.

OK, I see. I am trying to impose the notion of "scientific theory" on this conspiracy theory, whereas it's more like "conjecture", "speculation", or "opinion". That follows. And it follows that the Great Unwashed dismiss Evolution as "just a theory", because they think it's "just conjecture", "just speculation", or "just opinion" rather than what it is, which is a "scientific theory". Wahkeenah 08:40, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not. Again, slurs without evidence. What features of a theory does the hoax theory not have, in your opinion? Carfiend 22:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Two separate, but related languages Numskll 13:44, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

You mean "English", and "NASAshillish"? Carfiend 22:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Or "English" and "Kaysinglish". Wahkeenah 02:42, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Please review my post dated, 19:08, 27 July 2006, for a meaningful treatment of the 'two separate languages' (and try to remember that it is a metaphor) issue and cease the meaningless and immature bickering. This is not a school yard. Numskll 13:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review

Where is this notion coming from that NASA's data have not been subject to peer review? The records are public, and are probably some of the most widely read science ever published. Even this discussion would count as peer review except that we aren't qualified to call ourselves NASA's peers. (But tens of thousands of people around the world are, including Russians and Chinese who have their own space program.) Algr 21:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

• It's just another hoaxster red herring. One of them makes this undemonstrated (and demonstrably false) assertion, and soon they are all parroting it. Wahkeenah 23:53, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Where is the peer review of the telemetry data? Oh, right. It's 'missing'. Where is the evidence, beyond some photos and 'moon rocks'? There is no data that does not originate in a NASA lab. Carfiend 00:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Only one of the six missions' telemetry is missing. Why are the other five so stunningly unimportant? Algr

That's not true - the others are missing also. Carfiend 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Peer review is done on publications not data. 70.160.231.187 00:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

So you admit that the original data is unavailable for independent examination? Carfiend 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The publications CONTAIN the data. Algr

So you admit that the original data is unavailable for independent examination? Carfiend 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Call your congressman, offer to spend your life savings to fund looking for this data (or at least to fund his re-election campaign), and maybe they'll make it a priority. Wahkeenah 00:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Elected officials have raised this. Why should I spend my life savings waging war against corrupt govt? Carfiend 03:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

If there was a budget for it, and a justification, they might do it. Wahkeenah 03:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There are scientists asking NASA for the proof - they can't come up with it. Carfiend 05:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Asking is one thing. Are they willing to fund this archival expedition? Wahkeenah 06:06, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

You mean NASA hasn't stolen enough money already? Carfiend 06:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Not enough to develop a good archival system, at least. Wahkeenah 06:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

So you've moved from saying 'the data has been peer reviewed', to 'if you want peer review, you'd have to pay for it'. I'm glad we're straight on that. Carfiend 15:08, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you think research is free? Wahkeenah 15:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

No, I'm just trying to get an honest confession from you that there is no peer reviewed data on the moon landing. Carfiend 02:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

And what exactly would peer reviewed data on the moon landing be, pray tell? Seems like just another meaningless conspiracy theory phrase to me. Mark Grant 02:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't even know that that's true. I'm only hearing it from the Kaysing side, and he is already a proven liar, so I don't trust anything he says, even if it might accidentally turn out to be true. Wahkeenah 02:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Point of clarification. Data doesn't get peer reviewed, published research does. So when you ask for peer reviwed data, you're demonstrating a lack of background on the subject that would seem fundamental to the discussion at hand. The bulk of published research generated by NASA will have been peer reviewed. That is how academic publishing works. You're likely wanting independantly generated data -- another matter entirely. The fact every scrap of this data doesn't exist (or has been lost) and that this lack is interpreted without rational support as being proof positive of a fraud on the part of NASA makes this discussion meaningless. You might as well be arguing over the socialogical impact of the diaspora of tree-ents from mirk wood to the shire. The thing over which you argue does not exist. The individuals with which you are arguing are not serious. They see this talk page as their soapbox. They aren't trying to improve the quality of this article, but to validate their extremist POV here on the talk page. Some sort of intervention is wanting, so that meaningful progress can be made. Numskll 13:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

When I was in astronomy class in college, I had to do a report on the Moon. As one source, I had an entire book of collected peer-reviewed research on the Moon. In all liklihood, that was only a tiny fraction of all of the peer-reviewed research based on the Moon landing data. Bubba73 (talk), 15:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Independent confirmation

If you were head of a _real_ space program, how would you arrange for independent confirmation of a moon landing? Algr 21:18, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Take Bill Kaysing along, and leave him there, so he can spend the rest of his days looking for the exit door on the "movie set". Wahkeenah 23:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

For the other side of the coin, how about independent examination of some of the pro-hoax claims. For instance, the "C" rock photo. Take that photo and crop it so you can't tell that it is from the Moon. Then ask 100 photo experts what that C-shaped thing is. Don't tell them why you are asking, and see what they say. Bubba73 (talk), 23:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. NASA has not provided any independent evidence for the claim that they landed on the moon, and have lost much of the most convincing evidence. Their extraordinary claim is not, so far, substantiated. The "C" rock claims are subject to third party scrutiny. Carfiend 00:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That we landed on the moon is not an "extraordinary claim". Claiming that there was a hoax is an extraordinary claim. Prove it. Bubba73 (talk), 15:11, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

NASA has never "claimed" anything. They and all their observers around the world merely reported the events as they happened. Wahkeenah 00:37, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

That's what they claim. No one but NASA saw what went on. Conveniently, there's no way to verify their claims. Carfiend 00:41, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Not so. As has been stated here many times, there was plenty of independent confirmation. That doesn't square with the hoaxsters' premise, so they won't accept it. The assertion that they have "lost most of the convincing evidence" is a blanket statement with no arithmetic behind it. If you could go back to 1969, and were running NASA, how would you have demonstrated during the flights that they were actually occurring and were not being faked? What would you have done differently? Wahkeenah 00:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

There was not any. No one but three NASA employees (it is claimed) saw the 'moon landings'. Everyone else say video provided by NASA, or tracked objects that they were not able to confirm the nature of. Carfiend 03:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Supposing you are the head of NASA in 1969, how do you demonstrate, while it's happening, that the moon landings are for real? Wahkeenah 03:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I hope I'd have the integrity to blow the whistle, rather than try to cook evidence that it's real. Carfiend 05:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

No, you misunderstand. You are assuming it's a hoax. Assume, for a second, that it's real, and you are the head of NASA. Then, how do you demonstrate, while it's happening, that it really is happening? Wahkeenah 05:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think the blueprints and the development information is key. The testing and design work is a big part of it. That's the test between a mock-up for a movie, that has to look right, and a machine that really has to work. Examining how it was designed, and the itterative testing would be powerful proof. I'd say that testamony under oath from the people claiming to be on the moon would help, a sealed video unit and camera examined by a third party without tampering would help. Full telemetry data, and the hi-res video would be good. Off the top of my head, that's what springs to mind, but I'm sure we can add to it. Carfiend 05:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

No, that's all after the fact. I mean while it's happening; while the vehicles are (presumably) on the way to the moon, how do you prove it's actually happening? Wahkeenah 06:05, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the sealed camera unit, the telemetry data, they could have taken a copy of the day's newspaper with them, and recorded it with the sealed camera, a specific stunt or code word given by a third party to the moon crew to perform or say on the sealed camera on the moon. I'll think on it though. Carfiend 06:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that everything you mention there could easily be faked. But I will say no more about this one question, and let you ponder the matter. Wahkeenah 06:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Not really, because it would start to involve people outside of NASA, which would start to be a conspiracy theory... Carfiend 06:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Everything Carfiend asks for exists

Everything you ask for, Carfiend, already exists. Detailed blueprints for the moon landers are already sited in the article.

Not true. They are simply not. There is a technical manual, that has some drawing, but that is not the same thing. Carfiend 06:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

(Remember the discussion about where the rover fit?)

No. Carfiend 06:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Much of the testing and output was done by subcontracting to businesses, not Nasa directly. Nasa didn't even build the lander, Northrop Grumman did. (You can apply to work for them here: [1]) Here is the design, and the itterative testing you ask for: [2]

Again, that's not what you say it is - it's a link to a magazine article. Carfiend 06:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

High quality video would have required hundreds of pounds for a Quad format VTR and tapes on the lander - but they brought back movie film that was of even higher quality, not to mention 70 mm stills.

Rubbish. Please do some basic research. The hi quality video was relayed to the telemetry tapes. Carfiend 06:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The "high quality" video they are talking about is simply somewhat higher quality than what was broadcast. And it is for the Apollo 11 moonwalk only - nothing else. If you read the links about it, you can see some Polaroid shots of that video. The contrast and detail is better. However, due to technical reasons (the antenna used), the actual video from Apollo 11 moon walk was transmitted at 10 frames per second. Normal television in most of the world uses 30 frames per second. 10 frames per second is very jerky. They put the 10 fps video on a monitor with long-persestance phosphors and used another TV camera to capture that monitor, at 30 fps to be broadcast, a live scan conversion (and recorded). The original 10 fps was also recorded on telemetry tapes (1 inch, 14 track analog tape). If that 10 fps tape is found, and can be played back, with modern technology a better quality video can be made than the old copy after the live scan conversion that we currently have. I contacted one of the people involved, and they are looking for the tape. If it turns up, will that convince you? Bubba73 (talk), 15:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

(How long would it take to fake tens of thousands of photos using 1960's technology? Just how many army artists does Nasa have?)

There were not 10s of thousands of photos in the 60s. Most were released in the mid 1990s. Carfiend 06:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Those cameras, and the video that was transmitted, were in fact sealed, because of the need to protect against radiation.

Not by an independent agency, which was the point. Carfiend 06:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Bart Sibel has gotten Apollo 14 Lunar Module Pilot Ed Mitchell to swear on a bible. If that isn't convincing, then why would more of them help? Full telemetry data exists for all missions except 11.

No it doesn't. Carfiend 06:23, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Remember, these two discussions, Independent confirmation, and Peer review, are both because you said above that we weren't answering those subjects. This is our response to your request. We've asked you what evidence would satisfy you. We tried to get you to _imagine_ a real moon landing, and your first response was to "blow the whistle", and debunk it anyway!

No, you didn't - you asked what I would have done if I were head of NASA at the time of the Apollo program. Carfiend 06:25, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

That was me. I didn't post these other points. I know it's hard to tell one of us NASA retirees from another. :) Wahkeenah 08:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Then you responded with requests for things we already have available - most of them are already in the article. This isn't how people who want to know the objective truth behave, this is "defending the faith" against overwhelming evedence. Algr 16:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Endorsed - CHAIRBOY (☎) 16:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't really know what to make of that remark. Nothing that I 'asked for' exists. For example, where are the third party sealed cameras? You clearly did not read what I wrote. You comment is ridiculous fiction, "defending the faith" against overwhelming evedence. Please try to answer actual issues, rather than behave as if you're having a completely different conversation. Carfiend 06:18, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

More to the point, if anything does exist, Carfiend will claim it's a fake (like LM-13). It's pointless to even discuss anything with a 'true believer', as they have no interest in reality. Mark Grant 10:24, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

You know, the "true believer" behavior of landing believers is the real problem. When the fact that they have no evidence for the landing is exposed, they repeatedly fall back on the explanation that it doesn't matter, because even if they had evidence, they also have prescience about what their accusers would say. Of course, evidence for this telepathy is never presented. Carfiend 15:05, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Where is the evidence contradicting the established history of the Apollo flights? Wahkeenah 15:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

As has been pointed out. Time. And time. Again. There is no 'established record' of the moon landin, except for NASA's account. You know there isn't, and yet you continue to behave as if this were not true. That's true believer syndrome, right there. Gravitor 02:06, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

You're merely offering further reason for people to believe that you have no interest in improving the article here, only in pushing your own point of view, no matter how often people point out that you're wrong. Mark Grant 18:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow. This is definately the boldest blatant dishonesty I've seen from the pro-NASA camp. A list of things that are obviously not true on their face ("hi-res video would have meant lots of tapes in the lander") and then everyone else cheering on this ignorance, as if it's a sports game, not an attempt to establish the facts. When the obvious facts are pointed out, the only response is "even if we were right, you would ignore it", a false and stupid slander. The NASA case is debunked, and it's supporters shown to be intellectually and morally bancrupt. Evidence above. Gravitor 01:32, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The only thing "debunked" is every piece of so-called "evidence" the moon hoaxster cons have tried to claim. The hoaxster cons have proven time and time again to be a combination of ignoranimouses and liars. The famous Fox special is all you need to see to know that's true. Wahkeenah 02:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

That mainstream media. I can't believe it's part of the conspiracy against NASA too... Carfiend 02:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Way to change the topic from how dishonest the NASA shills have been. Carfiend 22:30, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the doubters should take NASA to court and see how it turns out. Wahkeenah 01:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Way to change the topic from how dishonest the NASA shills have been. Carfiend 02:09, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the doubters should take NASA to court and see how it turns out. Wahkeenah 02:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep - when you've got nowhere to hide on the facts, change the subject, avoid the question, parrot nonsense. Carfiend 04:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Once again, review WP:CIVIL. While I won't do anything directly because of my involvement in this thread, other admins will if you don't start treating the people with whom you disagree with respect. Your consistent incivility is uncalled for, please examine your tone. Regards, CHAIRBOY (☎) 05:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

We're just having a lively discussion. I can't speak for anyone else here, though. :) Wahkeenah 05:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I could do without the veiled personal attacks, the vandal-like editing of the headings on the talk pages, the ridiculously unmoored amd casually offered accusations, and the willful lack of meaningful engagment in the ideas of the 'opposition' on the part of the pro-hoaxers. I don't think these will change without some sort of intervention. See the Adhib/Carfiend conversations above for examples of this poor and one-sided behavior. 13:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If, say, detailed blueprints of the moon buggy (the Lunar Rover) showed up, would that convince the hoax believers that the landing was real? Bubba73 (talk), 14:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It would be powerful evidence that would show serious development of the program, rather than just a model in a museum. On it's own, it would not provide proof, but it would certainly be nice to have some evidence for the landings. Carfiend 21:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't. It would be too easy to fake such evidence... even easier now than it would have been then. It would prove nothing to those who already accept the historical record, and it would immediately be claimed as a fraud by those who don't believe the historical record, as they would point out that NASA was its source. It would be a nice set of historical artifacts to have, but is otherwise irrelevant. Wahkeenah 23:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

A second question for Carfiend: Can you briefly (one or two sentences) describe the difference between the Lunar Module and the Lunar Rover? Bubba73 (talk), 15:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

?? The module is the 'lander' and the rover is a car. What do you mean? Carfiend 21:03, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

1971 film and hoax consciousness

There was no public consciousness of an alleged hoax. That came years later. You cannot just make an assertion that there was, you have to prove it. The fact that one guy started to raise questions does not mean there was any significant public awareness of it. Your posting of that assertion is your personal point of view, not a demonstrable fact. If you were alive then, you would know that. Wahkeenah 05:38, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

On what do you base your assumption that I was not alive then? Carfiend 05:51, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Because your discussion of this whole subject suggests a lack of real-time awareness of the evolution of the space program. It's written from the viewpoint of someone who only knows what he's read about it in the history books. Just like I can't know what WWII was like, only by reading about it. Wahkeenah 05:54, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

From the beginning of the Apollo program there was some skepticism of it. In his book A Man on the Moon, Andrew Chaikin mentions that at the time of Apollo 8's lunar orbit mission in December 1968, such conspiratorial stories were in circulation. Several public media reports and artworks are believed to have helped to fuel the growth of the hoax accusations:

In 1967, British playwright Desmond Lowden wrote a play called The News-Benders, in which all major technological advances since 1945 were shown to have been simulated; the play was televised in January 1968 and showed a Moon landing faked with models.

Around the time of Project Apollo, while not asking about whether the landings were faked specifically, soon after the missions, Knight Newspapers (later to become Knight-Ridder) found that more than 30 percent of respondents to their poll were suspicious of NASA's trips to the moon.

Carfiend 05:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The fact that these ideas were out there, in some circles, does not mean there was any notable or widespread consciousness of them in the minds of the general public. Very, very few would have seen that movie and said, "Oh, yeh, that looks like the moon hoax everybody's talking about." Because very few were talking about it. If it were the late 1970s, maybe. But not in 1971, while Apollo was still ongoing. Such an idea put out to the mainstream would have been met with peals of laughter. No, the hoaxsters waited until it was over to really push the idea... when it was "safe", because they knew there would be no more moon voyages to prove what morons they were. Wahkeenah 05:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Have you got any facts to back that up? Carfiend 06:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

The dates of the books of Kaysing and the others is proof enough. Where were they during the missions? Keeping quiet, is what (except maybe between a few close friends). Because if they went public, the amount of ridicule heaped on them would have been overwhelming. Wahkeenah 06:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• As usual, you all send us chasing wild geese. Now I have to go rent that bloody film and see what you're talking about. Wahkeenah 06:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It's a great movie, but that won't tell you about how prevalent the idea was in the general public - anyway , I suggested a new version - what do you think? Carfiend 06:02, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

No, but it would refresh my memory of what it was maybe supposed to represent, and then maybe I could look for some independent (i.e. non-hoaxster) references to it, if I feel like spending time on it. Lacking firm evidence, you have to (at least temporarily) take away the notion that there was any notable public consciousness of the hoax idea. It is only valid to say that it may have planted or reinforced the idea, in some viewers, as just another step in the series of bullet points in the opening paragraph about ideas that led to the hoax hypothesis, which went public with Kaysing's 1974 book. Wahkeenah 06:12, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

And it never hurts to check out Jill St. John in peak condition. :) But why does Blofeld seem like at any moment he could burst into a stanza of "Time Warp"? :) Wahkeenah 06:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I read your latest posting on Diamonds Are Forever, and I think it's sufficiently tentative. Kudos. Wahkeenah 06:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I think we need some evidence for this. Your memory is quite fine, I'm sure, but it is also original research. Carfiend 06:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't question the need for evidence. I just don't remember the scene as such, or its context, and I don't want to take someone else's word (yours or anyone's) for the specific on-screen sequence of events. Wahkeenah 06:25, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

(Changed mind about remark and cut it.) Wikipedia considers a work of fiction to be it's own source, so watching a movie and describing what you saw is not original research. If it were, then you couldn't just quote Bart Sibel, you'd need to reference an expert saying what Sibel said, and then you need an expert saying what the expert said Sibel said, and so on.

I've never come across anyone who became 'skeptical' of the lunar landings because of 'Diamonds are Forever'. Nor could I see it being considered a 'moon hoax studio', given that the rover which features prominently in the movie is nothing like a real LRV (oh, but I forgot, the blueprints don't exist so it may well be that the real LRV actually looked like that and the photos were faked). Mark Grant 16:36, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I found that connection rather strange. I think I vaguely recall seeing that movie and found nothing strange about Nasa wanting a mockup set for the astronauts to practice in before the real mission. Algr

Did you see the movie NASA mocked up? I bet that didn't look strange either?! Carfiend 15:07, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Which movie are you referring to? Wahkeenah 15:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The one they told you was shot on the moon! Carfiend 22:39, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

There was video on every moon flight. The quality improved with each flight, as this ongoing engineering "experiment" improved. It's all reasonable and logical. Wahkeenah 01:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Potential new section

I'm having trouble picking out good sources to use, which is why i'm not just being bold and making the change, but I think a section on the relationship of these accusations to the modern space program. Things like:

1. skeptics citing how our much more modern shuttlecraft don't go to the moon(and can't)
2. the quite public take offs and landings of the space shuttles.
3. the massive scatter of shuttle parts from the exploded shuttle.
4. live video feeds from the space station indicating our presence in space( being hard to fake)

5. There's no nonsense about it going to the moon! Gravitor 01:38, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

you know points, and counterpoints, given from a modern perspective of space missions

Also, if anyone has anything from authoritative sources on the arguements from this perspective it would help a lot.(technical details are fairly easy to come accross and cite) i kan reed 16:31, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we need more controversy in this article. The hoaxsters have not had much to say about the shuttle, because it's an ongoing event. If they were to mothball it, then it wouldn't be too many more years before the hoaxsters would say that the shuttle, also, was fake; just as they did with Apollo, where they did not publish until they knew it was "safe" to make their accusations. They would further add that the apparent deaths from shuttle explosions were actually murders to silence potential whistleblowers. Wahkeenah 16:38, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

since this is apparently going to become a slightly POV talk, I'll go ahead an tell you that a great many of the people who beleive this stuff find the shuttle program much harder to refute because some of the results of the shuttle program are actually used by normal people(things like gps and sattelite TV, which simply could not work from the ground(while groundwave has a maximum range of 10 miles, it can't be used to determine direction, LOS is usually needed for that)) and most of the shuttle disbeleivers start getting into crazy super-disbeleivers who refute a good many commonly accepted scientific principles to prove their point. they are also far less common than the moon landing deniers.

however arguing over semantics which should be properly cited and explained is something that should be left to being presented by the more authoritative decriers and supporters of the relative subjects from properly cited sources. So, back to my original request, if you know any published information by skeptics or supporters alike that refer to the modern space program, i'd like to get a skeleton of this section started with proper citation. i kan reed 16:48, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Few people doubt the existance of the shuttle, but the reason is fairly obvious - there's no lie about it landing on the moon - NASA dare not try to pull a hoax like that these days, and is stuck with what it can actually do, not what it would like to fake. Gravitor 01:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

please please please leave your arguments at the door(or metaphorical equivelants) you know quite well what you are saying is not defined fact. Many(might be pushing it, probably about the same number as the flat earthers) people DO beleive the shuttle missions are fake, just because you think they are wakko doesn't mean that they don't deserve mention as well. This proposed section isn't to harm your personal beleifs it's to discuss their connection with another set of beleifs, and also to bring up some issues given our modern capabilities with regard to space travel. Not everyone is out to defame you, some of us just want to expand the knowledgebase of wikipedia and could care less what some people beleive. sheesh. i kan reed 19:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it's obvious because it's happening now. The hoaxster cons waited to push their bogus arguments until they knew there were no more moon flights happening. Wahkeenah 02:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Any chance we can get that soap box moved out of here? Numskll 02:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh come on. People believe NASA this time, because getting into orbit is not impossible. NASA is not trying to go to the moon, because these days it just couldn't be faked. That's why no one has ever followed up on the supposed moon landings. They can't. The comparison to the shuttle launches are complete rubbish - no one doubts it's possible to launch a rocket, they doubt it's possible to get a person to the moon and back. Carfiend 22:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

So you're claiming that NASA could fake a moon landing in 1969, but couldn't fake one now? Huh? Where does that whacky idea come from?

Oh, and by the way, the Russians were talking recently about offering tourist trips around the Moon if anyone was willing to pay for them. I guess they'll be hoaxes too? Mark Grant 01:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No, you believe it because it's happening now. If you had been cognizant in 1969, you would have had no trouble accepting it then, either. Wahkeenah 01:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It's been a week or so. Time for another archive, ja? Wahkeenah 02:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, can't have the truth hanging around too long now, can we... Carfiend 22:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Since my own comments would be archived, I can't quarrel with that statement. >:) Wahkeenah 01:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Numskull - you said that 'many people believe the shuttle missions are fake' - who? How many? I've never heard of any. Carfiend 22:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Carfiend, I'd urge you to read the archive more carefully on the matter to which you refer, but past experience with you has taught me that it's pointless. I would however urge you to try to engage seriously in the topics at hand rather than using this talk page as your personal soap-box. If you look over your posts of the past week you seem profoundly disengaged, disengenious and unresponsive -- I'm referring in particular to your 'input' in the methodoligy and naming conventions sections. Perhaps you should consider a blog. Please be civil if you choose to reply. I find your slightly veiled personal attacks tiresome. Numskll 00:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Those sections are pretty devoid of anything meaningfull from you - it's hard to think of anything to say except to point out the logical flaws. Sorry, but if you want serious debate, you've got to meet a basic standard of truth and sense. Carfiend 02:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Numskull "profoundly disengaged, disengenious and unresponsive" - you said that 'many people believe the shuttle missions are fake' - who? How many? I've never heard of any. Any engaged, serious responses likely from you? Carfiend 02:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the fact that I haven't written anything on the topic of the space shuttle might be a tiny clue that you should polish up your reading comprehension skills. But, of course, you're not serious. You're simply being disruptive in hopes of maintaininig the status quo. your posts, as a whole, lack a quality called 'cohesion', meaning your responses don't address what came before them except in the most cursory way. Cohesion is required for true discourse. It is the ante. without it coversations don't happen. Exchanges that lack this quality of cohesion can not be deemed discussions in any meaningful way; without cohesion you have two primates barking at each other. Numskll 13:14, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm afraid that I don't see any evidence whatsoever that Carfiend has any interest in improving Wikipedia, only in pushing their own agenda: this is rather strongly backed up by the fact that almost all of their edits are on this article. Since I haven't been here for long, I'm not sure what people are expected to do about someone who's impeding the improvment of an article, if they're too nice to get into a stupid edit war. But until and unless Carfiend stops preventing those improvements the page will continue to be a horrible mutant mess that benefits no-one who's actually interested in the truth. Mark Grant 14:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I apologise - it was one of the other pro-NASA folks who said that. Still, no questioning of his nonsense from the pro-NASA camp. Anything, no matter how wrong seems to be fair game if it's from 'your' side. I can only reflect your accusations, and say that I have seen no evidence from you that you are doing anything but pushing your POV at all costs. You so rarely address issues of fact, so rarely present any practical change that would improve the article. Please. Show some good faith, address some issues of fact, or suggest some changes that imprvoe the article. Carfiend 15:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

ok. First, I was the one who said that said that "many people" beleive that the shuttles are faked too. That isn't something I'd put into an article(weasel words) but the only person I've met in real life who beleived the shuttle landings were faked also beleived that the shuttles are equally fake. However, people I personally know aren't encyclopedic. Thus, I was trying to find out if anyone knew any potential source material of opinions. Secondly, if all arguments are given from the perspective of those who beleive them, there is no point of view. "Commonly accepted fact" isn't sufficiently FACT to be used in an article about what is, essentially, people disagreeing with commonly accepted fact.(2-5% dissent isn't very much). You can(and should) argue about who is a reliable source of opinions on these subjects, but it's not an attack or POV by wikipedia when an argument is attributed. Two diferent worlds. i kan reed 17:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

A starting point could be to try to find a poll on the subject. This article cites various polls that claim that up to 30 percent have "some doubts" about Apollo. That doesn't mean that anywhere near 30 percent firmly believe it didn't happen, only that they have questions. It reminds me of when Garrison Keillor said a poll showed that something like 50 percent of the public "would 'consider' eating squirrel." It doesn't mean that 50 percent actually would. Anyway, maybe there's a poll lying around someplace about the shuttle program. Wahkeenah 18:18, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If we were 'pushing our POV at all costs', there would be no conspiracy theorist claims on the page, just a big banner saying 'We went to the moon, dude'. In reality, we're merely trying to ensure the page gives a balanced view of the subject, and have tried to get to you discuss how to improve this page on a number of occasions. Currently the page is basically a long laundry-list of claims mostly from random web-sites and self-published books: that's not what Wikipedia is intended to be, nor is it your soap-box. We've pointed out that the page should be rewritten in a similar style to other conspiracy theory pages, but when people have tried to make a start on rewriting it, you delete their changes, even though the majority view here seems to be that it should be rewritten. As I said, I see no evidence whatsoever that you have any interest in improving this page. Mark Grant 17:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

A reliable and verifyable poll I cited in the article (I assume it is still there) says that 5% of Americans believe in the hoax, 89& believe in the landing, and 6% aren't sure. An interesting thing is that this seems to be primarily an American phenomenon. A guy in Germany (sorry, I don't have a reference) estimated that fewer than 1% of the people in Europe believe in the hoax. It would be interesting to find such a poll. Bubba73 (talk), 18:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The poll you are citing is a gallop poll [[3]] and the figures you name are there.

In the July 1999 poll, the overwhelming majority of Americans (89%) do not believe the U.S. government staged or faked the Apollo moon landing. Only 6% of the public believes the landing was faked and another 5% have no opinion.

Numskll 22:58, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The trouble is the truth is not a popularity contest. Go and tell evolutionists that they are in a minority in the US and therefore wrong... Carfiend 19:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

my creation of this section

A quick question. It's not copyright violation, or plagarism, to copy and paste what someone's title is, is it? i kan reed 16:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

• if you mean someones job title then no, it is not AFAIK Numskll 16:48, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I did mean the job title, thanks i kan reed 17:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

• What are you talking about? Wahkeenah 17:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I lifted exact text from the article(his(the ESA guy) name and title), because I assumed that no variations are really acceptable when describing a job title. i kan reed 17:46, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Using someone's correct job title is not a copyright vio. Carfiend 19:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Unless their job title happens to be the lyrics of a song written since 1923. Wahkeenah 23:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Arguments against the hoax

Greed: consider how much money "someone" from Nasa would make by saying "yes it was all a hoax."

Soviet propaganda "These 'capitalist (insert phrases of choice) made all this up, while the glorious Soviet Union put up Sputnik, Laika etc.'

Jackiespeel 21:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You're using logical arguments; and where the hoaxsters are concerned, logic does not figure into the discussion. Wahkeenah 22:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

And you're all being silly. We shouldn't care if it's correct or incorrect. What matters here is that some signifigant people beleive it. We should report that. It's statements like this that make these guys beleive that there's POV pushing going on. It really doesn't help much to repeatedly denounce what public opinion generally considers silly. It's a lot better to try and fix minor points of subtle POVing and help expand known counter-claims than to argue in order to convince people of something they really would prefer not to be convinced of. Being childish only supports more childishness. i kan reed 16:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course it would be better to produce an article worthy of an encyclopedia rather than a laundry list of claim and counter-claim. I can't see a print encyclopedia doing that. Mark Grant 16:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, of course, but "proving" or "disproving" one side or the other on the talk page won't help much in that regard. I would also submit that this article does a little more than that. Like mentioning the encounter between aldrin and that one guy.

A topic of this nature is likely to contain lists of arguments and counter arguments, and have a tendency to descend into long "fluffy cotton wool" discussions and pschological analyses of the accusatory kind.

There is room for making a list of "logical arguments against the hoax" - to which I would add Occam's Razor (which would apply to quite a few hoaxes and counter claims) - and I was just starting the list off.

Are there any "illogical arguments against" it being a hoax? ;)

Jackiespeel 16:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of them. Carfiend 19:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The idea that we shouldn't care whether an article is factually correct or not is offensive. We should have a good intuitive sense of the veracity of something we write about. The problem on this page, and which is the usual starting point of these lengthy diatribes on the talk page, is that the hoaxsters claim the article is not "neutral". But their idea of "neutral" is to present only their side and take away the counterarguments, thus leaving the reader with the false impression that the questions the hoaxsters raise don't have reasonable explanations. Thus they hope to use this page as just one more recruiting tool for their little league of hoaxster conspiracists. Wahkeenah 17:29, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The idea that we shouldn't care whether an article is factually correct or not is offensive -- however, technically speaking, Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not truth. Which, frankly, could eliminate a large fraction of the page: who, for example, can verify statements supposedly made in a Apollo-hoaxer's self-published book? It's not as though there are many copies around. Mark Grant 17:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

it's not verifiable for factual information regarding the apollo program, because the writer can't be established as an authority on those matters, it is a perfectly verifiable source for what people beleive in regards to the program. i kan reed 17:50, 31 July 2006 (UTC) (i know someone is going to be insulted by this, but they really can't lay their hands on anything concrete themselves.)

I disagree. How would I realistically verify a claim posted here saying that 'Joe Bloggs claimed that NASA never flew to the Moon because it's the land of pixies' in his self-published book 'Shut up, we never went to the moon, OK!'? At best you end up with 'On geocities.com/moonpixies.html, John Smith said that Joe Bloggs claimed that NASA never went to the Moon because it's the land of pixies', which is getting a bit silly. Mark Grant

Now the question of "verifiable" comes into play. OK. As you are suggesting, virtually everything the hoaxsters put forth is based on their opinion about whether the flights were "possible" or not, combined with their inability to interpret photographs and other evidence. The article then would come down to every line beginning with "Kaysing says this" or "Sibel says that". In short, the article would be about those guys rather than about the issue. Which might be a good thing, as those charlatans need some exposure for what they are (or were, Kaysing now being dead). Wahkeenah 17:56, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, that's what I think article should be about: Apollo-denial as a phenomenon, not a laundry list of claims and counter-claims. Mark Grant 19:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

And by the way, the term "verifiable" means "able to determine the truth" about a given subject. Wahkeenah 17:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it means that you can verify that when someone posts 'Joe Bloggs says that NASA never went to the Moon because it's the land of pixies', that they actually did say that. It doesn't mean that you can verify that the Moon really is the land of pixies or that NASA never went there. Mark Grant 19:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The next issue, then is the one of notability. Anyone can say anything, especially on the internet, so you can fully verify that, "Joe Bloggs says this", and then someone will say, "But he's not notable." Why? Because he has no expertise, no background on which to base an opinion... arguably, the same status as Kaysing, Sibel, etc.? No, because he's "not well known". The only reason those two yokels are considered "notable" is because they are famous... circular reasoning, ultimately. Wahkeenah 23:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree: few, if any, of the Apollo-deniers would pass the notability test if they weren't known for being Apollo-deniers. Mark Grant 01:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

In fact, this article is much better than it used to be. It used to read like a catfight. It has been toned down significantly, although it could still do with a little less editorializing. The catfight is now mostly confined to the talk page, thankfully. Wahkeenah 17:34, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree it is better, one of the main ways forward has been for both sides to rely more on sourcing their claims rather than unsourced editorializing. Carfiend 19:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There has been one exceptionally good point, and that is that we should give extra focus to the movement. Anything skeptics might have in common?(this is not an invitation for personal attacks or inflamatory remarks).i kan reed 20:49, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV tag

See undue weight. Do not remove the tag. •Jim62sch• 00:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• You need to write something specific justifying the tag for this particular article. Do not put the tag back until then. Wahkeenah 01:12, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
• YOU DON'T HAVE ANY COMMENTS. You have not participated in this discussion at all. It is not your place to be imposing your will on the others here. YOU are the vandal. Wahkeenah 01:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe what Jim is saying is that the undue weight section of NPOV applies to this article as it currently stands. In that the article is almost completely made up of pro-hoax arguments. In particular, sections 5,6 and 8 constitutes the bulk of the article with minimal weight given to differing opinions. Especially given that the Apollo hoax claims are pseudoscience, the NPOV section on pseudoscience also applies. For these reasons, this article violates NPOV. And Wahkeenah, there is no need to use all caps. Please remain civil. Thanks. JoshuaZ 01:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, posting a link to that section would have been better than an edit war. Personally I tend to agree, but try convincing Carfiend and friends that this topic counts as pseudoscience... Mark Grant 01:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)