Talk:Who Framed Roger Rabbit

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Trivia section

"Trivia" sections are very bad form for wikipedia articles (you would never see one in a real encyclopedia!). This one has become an enormous dumping ground for random facts about the film. All of this info is good and should simply be intergrated into the article in the apropriate places. If this can be done, this article might have a chance of being featured. --The_stuart 18:08, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

• The R.K. Maroon cartoons in which Roger appears are billed as Baby Herman and Roger Rabbit cartoons (or simply referred to as Baby Herman cartoons). Although Roger is arguably the focal point of each cartoon, he does not receive star billing. Many 1930s/1940s cartoon series featured a comic secondary character in support of a cute main character, often resulting in the secondary character outshadowing the first (for example, Mickey Mouse and his co-stars Donald Duck and Goofy, Gandy Goose and Sourpuss, Andy Panda and Woody Woodpecker, Tweety and Sylvester, Porky Pig and Daffy Duck, etc.

• The road to be built through Toon Town is described as running "from here to Pasadena". Possible roads include the Pasadena Freeway running from downtown Los Angeles (completed in 1940 it would be an anachronism), or California State Route 134, running from near Burbank, CA.

Moved most of the trivia into the article, these two peices of "trivia" are kind of allusive however, don't know where they could go. --The_stuart 19:48, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

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If I removed any links, it was unintentional. there was an edit collision at the time I had made major changes, and I thought I had repaired what was done while I was doing my edit. It wasn't intentional, and there's no need to be nasty about it. -- Zoe

I'm sorry if I sounded nasty, that was meant to be said with a wink and a smile. ;) The times on the history made it pretty clear that there was an edit conflict. --Brion

The actual name of this movie is Who Framed Roger Rabbit -- without the question mark. It should be put under a separate entry and a redirect used for the entry with the question mark...though I'm reluctant to do that, because it would erase the history of the previous contributors to the article. Modemac

"Toons?"

In Who Framed Roger Rabbit, the animated characters are referred to throughout as toons. However, before seeing "Roger Rabbit" I had personally never heard them called that before. The cartoons were called "cartoons," and I don't think there was a generic name for the characters in the cartoons. Was toons a piece of movie industry jargon?

When a theme park was opening some WB-cartoon-themed section, I saw some promotional piece about it in which a "mother" says "When I was a kid I always loved the toons" and I wondered whether she a) got it from Roger Rabbit, b) was reading a script (I think that section of the theme park was called "Toon Town" or something of the sort) or c) really called them toons when she was a kid. Dpbsmith (talk) 17:29, 31 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I have a feeling that the term was invented for the novel, but I'm not sure. (For what it's worth, all the other examples of "toon" that come easily to mind - Tiny Toon Adventures, for instance - post-date the movie. On the other hand, there is Looney Tunes, which is a near miss.) --Paul A 04:13, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Looney Tunes doesn't share the etymology, unfortunately. It, along with Merrie Melodies, was based off of Disney's Silly Symphonies. 68.33.67.116 06:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

There was/is an old RPG called Toon.Wandering Star 19:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Criticism

I removed this:

The Golden Era of cartoons, which this film attempts to emulate and laud, is best described as a form on manic escapism meant for the entire spectrum of movie-going audiences. Specifically, cartoons avoided the two big topics that dominate the rest of fiction: sex and death. Who Framed Roger Rabbit flirts with sexual attraction (as unsubtly as Jessica Rabbit's breasts are large) and does what no cartoon from the Golden Era would ever have done: killed a character.

By having Judge Doom kill a defenseless, childlike cartoon boot, it moved the film awdwardly out of escapism into realism. This presents a similar problem to that which caused Kindergarten Cop to flop at the box office -- a final product that was neither meant wholly for children nor adults. If the movie was meant for audiences of all ages, then why kill a character onscreen? If the movie was not meant for audiences of all ages, why go to the expense of including so many copyrighted cartoon characters? Young children may find the execution scene too disturbing, and adult fans of Golden Era cartoons may find this scene to stand in complete opposition to why they enjoyed those cartoons in the first place.

As such, the film remains a classic on technical grounds, but it is not as universally popular as one would expect given that its supporting cast includes Bugs Bunny and Mickey Mouse.

Wikipedia is not a soapbox. Original critical reviews of films are not to be listed here. --b. Touch 18:33, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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You removed this because Wiki is not a soapbox? So *any* article with criticism in it may have that criticism removed? How about the criticism of Forrest Gump? How about the criticism of political figures? Shall we purge all articles of information that even lists subjective opinion?

If you will note, there what I wrote was *not* a review, but a summary of criticism toward the movie. As such, I'm putting it back. --User:Proteus71 19:49, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Articles are to be written in a neutral point of view. Your addition was subjective almost to the point of one-sidedness. Also, the words are your opinion; a good number of critics and consumers dislike Roger Rabbit for a number of reasons (among other things, a weak third act, underdeveloped characters, supefulously moving characters), but your addition doesn't even touch upon any of those; it's just about what YOU want to say. (Again) Wikipedia is not a soapbox. This article is not about YOUR opinion, or mine, or anyone else's. Now, if you want to write a section on the critical perception of Roger Rabbit, go research, quote, and cite professional reviews of the film, and give general audience consensus from both sides of the coin. Otherwise, the section will be removed. As for the criticism of Forrest Gump, it's also POV unless it can be attributed to (more than one, to make the statement "some" true) published reviews of the film. The policy on political figures is not to criticise from one political side or the other.--b. Touch 21:04, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The main problem is: it's just YOUR critcism written from your point of view. Presenting critcism of the film is fine, but it cannot be your own singular personal opinion. This is an encyclopedia).

Moreover, the facts you're using to support your critcism are incorrect. Sex and death were prevalent themes of Golden Age cartoons. The pre-1934 Betty Boop cartoons, Tex Avery's Red Hot Riding Hood, and frequent gags and situations in Looney Tunes all show blatant and obvious eferences to sexual attraction, sexual intercourse, lust, and indecency. And violence was the mainstay of American animation until the television era. Popeye the Sailor, Tom and Jerry, Looney Tunes, Merrie Melodies, pre-1948 Woody Woodpecker, and Road Runner cartoons all feature overwhelming amounts of violence, to the point where most of those shorts were heavily edited for television. And although in many cases, characters have died and come back, been flattened, etc., there are many, many cartoons where characters actually die: Chuck Jones' 1951 Drip-along Daffy has plenty of on-screen murders in its first two minutes.

The point you bring up about the juxtaposed tone is a valid one; it just needs to be presented in an unpointed way. I revised it (and shortened it, so that it does not read as a rant or a personal opinion), and added the other major criticisms of the film as well. In a format like this, criticism can be kept; the Forrest Gump criticism is similar to this, except that it still needs attribution. Were it to be peer-reviewed, that would be the first thing that would need to change. --b. Touch 21:42, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

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The "Plot" summary says, "There he speaks to R.K. Maroon, who gets shot in the confrontation." Is that an especially bad place to be shot? DSatz 02:33, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

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How much?

The film cost $70 million in the article's first paragraph and then only $50 million in the Significance section. Which one is it? RodC 22:17, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

I'm confused by the same thing, Rod, and that's why I've added the Contradictory template to the top of the article. --Kistaro Windrider 09:30, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

One possible explanation is that the actual costs to make the film were $50 million, but the overall budget was $70 million when you add in things like advertising the film. I have no idea if this is true, but it's one possible explanation. Tnikkel 09:56, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Grammatical Error

In the trivia section, fourth point:

The credits go on for nearly ten minutes, a record at the time the movie was made.

I don't understand this. It either says that when the credits go for nearly ten minutes, it records the time the movie made or a record is played 10 minutes into the movie. Oh heck, I know I'm wrong.

Someone fix it plz.-TKGB

"Record", in this case, refers to the "longest period of time", as in "record time". Then again, if that isn't clear, perhaps we need to clarify the meaning of the word "record"? --Deathphoenix 21:17, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

VfD

Judge Doom had a 1 July 2005 Vote for deletion, resulting in merge to this article. Text was:

Judge Doom is an evil character from the Who Framed Roger Rabbit movie who seeks to take over Toontown. He has access to a supply of chemicals that can destroy toons. After several encounters, the heroes of the story discover that Judge Doom is himself a Toon. He is also responsible for killing the detective character's brother. In the end, Doom is destroyed by his own chemical.

-- Jonel | Speak 03:18, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

The will

I put in how Marvin Acme's will was found. When Roger first went to Eddie's apartment, he told Eddie he had written Jessica a love letter ("How do I love thee? Let me count the ways. One-one thousand! Two-one thousand! Three-one thousand!...") on a sheet of blank paper he found at Acme's warehouse. As it turned out, Acme wrote the will on that very sheet of paper in "disappearing reappearing ink", and the will reappeared at the end of the film. --Kitch 18:11, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

He didn't find it at Acme's warehouse. Roger states specifically in the scene at Eddie's office/apartment that he found it in his wife's dressing room. --Corvun 08:50, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Backtracking editing of final cut

There is one thing that I am so tired of in the world or DVD releases. And that is, going back and re-editing what made it to the screen so, as not to offend audience members. So a fictious baby looking character made a lurid expression. So What. If people can't handle it, don't watch it.

We have entered an age where people just take whiteout to what has already been produced which did nothing to harm someone. To be honest, I never really noticed Baby Herman making anything more than lurid remarks.

Once a movie has been made and completed, that's it. All should be as is, unless it is merely to remove some elements not meant to be in the original shot in the first place.

I want my original versions back for all films ruined by this.

From what I've heard, I think it's mentioned in the DVD commentary, is that in the begining of the movie where Baby Herman walks under the woman while storming off the set. Supposedly for a few frames, he's making an obscene gesture which is left in the VHS edition but cut out of the DVD.

Peter Tangney 18:11, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

I bought the Red Car so I could dismantle it!

Should there not be a paragraph in this article describing the General Motors streetcar conspiracy in Los Angeles and the significance this plays in the plot of the film (and in L.A. lore)?

Never having lived in LA, I'd never heard of this conspiracy. Doom's mention of the Red Car is so brief and generally overshadowed by his plot to destroy ToonTown that I don't think it's worth adding more than a brief sentence or two linking to the article mentioned.

I disagree. The entire "Cloverfield Industries" subplot is a thinly-veiled reference to the above-mentioned streetcar conspiracy, with Cloverfield standing in for the real-life National City Lines.

I agree that the article should mention this reference somewhere, this is exactly the type of info that makes wikipedia so interesting and useful, especially for people researching hidden or subtle references in films and books. --Fluxaviator 02:22, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Again, I'm not saying it shouldn't be mentioned; just that it probably doesn't deserve a substantial paragraph. I feel that this conspiracy is little-known outside the LA area. -DynSkeet (talk) 11:05, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Cloverfield Industries or Cloverleaf Industries?

In the film, the real-life role of NCL is filled by the fictional "Cloverfield Industries,"

IIRC, it was "Cloverleaf Industries", and Google seems to agree [1] [2]. Then again, its been years since I have seen this movie, so can someone confirm this? --Bletch 19:26, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

"Leaf", not "field" --FuriousFreddy 23:16, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

Cloverleaf, most probably as in a typical shape of highway interchanges. Corrected "field" in the article. TrbleClef ♮ (talk) 03:46, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

About the anachronisms

By the movie's own internal logic, are the toons who appeared in it, though they hadn't in the real world been created until after 1947, reall anachronisms? Couldn't they very easily be toons who hadn't found work yet? --Corvun 08:41, September 7, 2005 (UTC)

Toons/Coons

It seems fairly obvious to me that toons is a fairly clear reference to coons, a derogatory term for African American. Here is why: 1. Toons, just like coons, is a derogatory term. 2. They live in Toon Town, and ghettos used to be called Coon Towns. 3. The movie takes place in '40s LA, where the term Coon was most popular. 4. Just listen to how they sound. 5. The movie alludes to and satirizes many other things, why not this one? 6. Despite someone's recomendation that I check google for a better discussion on the topic, there is no evidence that this is not the case. 7. It fits the plot, context, and themes of the movie.

By someone, do you mean me? Yes, I did drop you a line. While there weren't many mentions (which proves its un-notability, and Wikipedia has a policy against original research), the top two, which mentioned toon town/coon town stated specifically that this was not the case. If you dispute this, I encourage you to search for "who framed roger rabbit" toons coons, or find a reference. I was honestly editing the page with the reference before I realized that it said the one who thought that was asinine for thinking so. I agree the similarities are striking, but without confirmation from someone directly involved with the project, we cannot post it here, due to our policies. If you have any further questions, do not hesitate to ask. -Mysekurity ^{(have you seen this?)} 08:30, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm thinking of adding a notice about "some falsely believe that 'toons comes from the derogatory term for blacks in the 1940s, coons." Or something of that nature. It doesn't quite fit in with the prose as-is, but I'll add it to a later part, then later re-incorperate it in. Any thoughts? -Mysekurity^{(have you seen this?)} 03:52, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's necessary. Unless someone very notable writes an article or speech about this subject, "some believe" comments here are non-notable, IMO. Also, I never once got the toon-coon thing. At the risk of sounding a little unsensitive myself, I think that toon-coon thing is a litte over-sensitive. "Toon" isn't something derogatory: people that love Toons use that term as well, and no Toon seems to take the term as an insult. Therefore, there seems to be no "canonical" evidence that Toon is analgous to "Coon". --Deathphoenix 14:27, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

When I first heard Eddie Valiant say "toons" with a disgusted note in his voice, I immediately associated it with the way I heard hundreds of people during my childhood say "coons" whenever they observed the behavior of African Americans. To me, it is obvious.Lestrade 00:48, 11 April 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Dude, he HATED toons then, so it was ment as offensive

I think it should be noted that in the Ink and Paint Club scene with Donald and Daffy's dueling pianos, there is a an obvious African-American durogatory term. It's not "coon" though. After Daffy calls Donald "dispicable", Donald, a white duck, calls Daffy, a black duck, a "gosh darn stubborn n****r."

Oscar nominations

At the end of the Critical Reception section, the article says it was nominated for four additional Oscars it didn't win, then lists three. Is it three or four, and if the latter, which one is missing from the list? PurplePlatypus 21:32, 10 December 2005 (UTC)

220.239.53.31 added discrepancies section: questionable!

This is apparent original research, and needs to be covered by published sources. Question (ahem): Are there any print articles dealing with the minutiae of the film entitled “Who Framed Roger Rabbit”....? Please look at the code to the discrepancies section by editing it. I’ve placed some hidden comments on the section there.

The "discrepancies" are the purview of imdb, not necessarily wikipedia.

Schweiwikist 11:55, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

followup

here's code for that user's talk page, from the template for no orig research . . . ought it be placed there? This is an anon user with a long edit history.

Hello, 220.239.53.31, and welcome to Wikipedia! We welcome and appreciate your contributions, such as those in Who Framed Roger Rabbit, but we regretfully cannot accept original research. Please be prepared to cite a reliable source for all of your information. Thanks for your efforts, and happy editing!

Bugs and Mickey-- really the same number of lines in joint scene?

From the article:

A contract was signed between Disney and Warner stating that their respective icons, Mickey Mouse and Bugs Bunny, would each receive exactly the same amount of screen time. This is why the script had Bugs, Mickey, and Eddie together in one scene falling from a skyscraper; in this scene, the mouse and the rabbit speak the same exact number of words of dialogue, as per the contract. OK-- but I wrote down the dialogue from the scene to the best of my recollection, and from what I gathered, Bugs said 33 words, and Mickey only 18. ekedolphin 10:45, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Was hoping somebody might ask about this. The "equal time" contract sounds a bit like urban legend. Exaggeration. But note this, if you have DVD access to the film, during Eddie’s big fall (450 stories): Mickey enters the shot with his goggles on; as he removes the goggles, Bugs enters. Bugs never removes his goggles, the viewer can see the wabbit’s eyes just fine. Sixty-four million dollar question: Why are Mickey’s goggles reflective?? One point beyond this, though: I recall it was an issue of the relative proportions of mouse and hare, owing to the difference in real life. Consider how out-of-scale Mickey Mouse and Pluto (his dog) are. And imagine a meeting between MM, Sylvester, and Hippety Hopper . . . the mind boggles: Mickey to Sylvester: “Uh... who are you calling a, heh heh, giant mouse?” Sylvester: “I know, I know!! (Thhhaketh...)” --Schweiwikist 16:16, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Um....what? --The_stuart 02:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed: the "other discrepancies" section

This section was someone's long personal report/analyisis of the film, and, as originalk research, should not be here. --FuriousFreddy 23:09, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Piano Duel

It sounds to me like Donald is saying "Gosh darn stupid nigger."Lestrade 21:05, 5 July 2006 (UTC)Lestrade

Well, upon listening to the DVD version(which could very well be different from the Laserdisc and original theatrical feature) very, very closely, I was able to make out something akin to "Dawgone stubborn little... I'll geh-geh [typical incoherent-but-angry Donald noise]". But that's just me. --Joseph Collins 22:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Censored text

I restored some text that had been censored by an anonymous IP address, in the section about the urban legend that during the piano dual sequence, Donald Duck calls Daffy Duck a "nigger." (Which is, by the way, indeed untrue. I've checked.) (Ibaranoff24 09:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC))