Talk:Mandatory Swedish

Old material

Moved from article: As members of the minority naturally will be more skilled in the majority language, than the majority population will be in the minority language, the pakkoruotsi reform can also be seen as an effective means against Finland-Swedish dominance in governmental offices and organisations. -- Firstly, I don´t see why there should be any danger of the minority language dominating governmental offices and organisations, secondly, I don´t understand how this sentence might help in understanding the implications of compulsory Swedish language tuition in Finnish schools. If somebody could clarify and NPOV this, please put it back into the article.

My attempt was to "balance" the section regarding reasons behind the policy. While I certainly agree to the wording being unsufficiently cautious, as it was written rather much in haste, it does most certainly surprice me that the logic doesn't shine through. ;-/ It's not the minority language which is at danger of dominating government, but the minority itself. As far as I understand, there is an overrepresentation of the minority in the ranks and staffs of the governmental authorities, which would have been worse without the pakkoruotsi unless the minority language requirement were laxed. -- Ruhrjung 17:41 23 May 2003 (UTC)

This is an example of how important it is to be very wary of accepting firsthand the rather contorted logic that is often used to prop up our language policy. Instead of wondering whether our civil service's language requirements are reasonable, we are "protected from Fenno-Swedish dominance" through a stricter regime of teaching Swedish... HuckFinn 18:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

ditto: arguing that the Swedish speakers of Åland and Finland maybe better should emigrate to Sweden if they aren't able to conduct their business in Finnish. -- This looks like disguised polemics against the minority, and is not helpful either.

You are certainly right, it too was an attempt at balancing the following: -- Ruhrjung 17:41 23 May 2003 (UTC)

and more:Some pupils feel they suffer from learning the minority language during two years or more. Also the mandatory course and exam in tertiary education is questioned by them who hold mandatory Swedish for the most disliked subject in school, arguing their skill in the disliked language doesn't correspond with all the years spent studying it. -- The facts in this sentence may be true, but should be expressed in a more neutral way before going into an encyclopedia article.
Cheers, Kosebamse 13:10 23 May 2003 (UTC)

I tried to turn the rant into a less biased version, but you still found it insufficiently NPOV. Obviously, I didn't try hard enough. ;-) -- Ruhrjung 17:41 23 May 2003 (UTC)

I suppose that a "NPOV" article means then that all criticism of the policy are suppressed, or turned into something like "there once were rumours of a schoolkid not liking Swedish, but he was later declared insane and cured through increased exposure to the Fenno-Swedish culture and language" ? Swedish is consistently shown by research to be among the most disliked of subjects, and I don't understand why this should be suppressed. HuckFinn 18:43, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

I had made a revision some days ago, which I thought I had been fairly successful with, in NPOV-regards. I was then this morning pretty baffled to see "my splendid neutral text" ;->> hadn't been accepted but preambled by a rather biased rant, which I subsequently tried to edit to get it 1/ more neutral, and where that's not possible, 2/ more balanced, in a way which hopefully would be acceptable for both side of the feud. It would be stupid of me to try to hide the element of injured pride in my less skillful editing today, but I hope something good is coming out of it in the end. ;-)
-- Ruhrjung 17:41 23 May 2003 (UTC)

I believe that the article is evolving quite nicely and your contributions did help a lot (thanks!). However, when debates are getting 1) ridiculous and 2) nationalistic, I believe it might sometimes be best to take out the controversies entirely instead of starting out on a way that leads to detailing every possible implication of every possible interpretation of every statement. That´s why I excised these portions, and I do believe that the trimmed-down article is now more readable and less biased than it was a while ago. but please feel free to add any comment on controversy that you feel is necessary to complete the picture. And it might still be a good idea to have some others review it (I´ve asked Jniemenmaa to have a look). Kosebamse 22:32 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Probably you are right. In this case I felt it might be perceived as the introduction to an edit-war, of which I have no interest (see the German language version which I decided to ignore;-), why I didn't simply revert to the previous version. More generally, it can't be neglected that the Pakkoruotsi issue is a part of the long domestic "debate" regarding Finland's positioning between the nearest powers Russia, Germany and Sweden. Although the arguments are crude and anything but NPOV, they are not representing any fringe minority, or (only) immature school children.

-- Ruhrjung 23:24 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Please don´t get me wrong, I didn´t refer to your work when using the words "ridiculous and nationalistic". The matter, however, does seem to have its ridiculous and nationalistic aspects and IMO it might help to keep these out if possible as they might be seen as bait for trolls of all sorts . Thanks for your work, Kosebamse 23:34 23 May 2003 (UTC)

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Thanks for the invitation to both Kosebamse and Ruhrjung. I do not know if I can add anything essential to this article, but I tried looking at it with "fresh eyes". You two seem to have managed to make it quite understandable for someone without any knowledge of Finnish language education.

But there are still some things that I do not like in the article:

5.1% of the population in Mainland-Finland in addition to the autonomous Åland islands -- This is just bending the truth with statistics. Why make a distinction with "Mainland-Finland". Lets just say 5.6% of the population of Finland.

I've no problems to buy the rest, although I wonder if your proposed revisions really would be accepted as NPOV by those disliking the mandatory education in Swedish. But on this very point, I think it would be wise to keep the 5.1%-figure. Otherwise the ~5%-figure will return sooner or later. The 5%-figure can be argued to be correct, but only if Åland is counted separately. And Åland can be argued to be irrelevant here, as Åland doesn't have two official languages, and hence no Pakkoruotsi.

-- Ruhrjung 00:58 26 May 2003 (UTC)

In the first paragraph: to refer to Finland-Swedish studied in the schools of Finland. -- I know that Ruhrjung is not going to like this... but I do not think it is Finland-Swedish that is taught to the Finnish speaking pupils. Maybe we can change that to [[Finland-Swedish|Swedish]]? :)

Certainly. (i.e.: no, you are wrong! I wouldn't dislike it.) In this context I thought it was more NPOV to literally write "Finland-Swedish" inasmuch as one of the arguments I've heard a few times is the scorn over not even learning the real standardized Swedish but a small dialect (although standardized - similarly to Meankieli). The argument is not worth much in my ears, but I thought it would make at least some Pakkoruotsi-disliker happy. ;-)

-- Ruhrjung 00:58 26 May 2003 (UTC)

In governmental terminology "the other domestic language" is the term used for Pakkoruotsi, like Finnish is the other domestic language for pupils with Swedish mother tongue. -- I don't understand this sentance at all. Doesn't "the other domestic language" refer to (Finland-)Swedish?

This is how it's been explained for me (and what's supported by the .stat.fi-site):

In the peruskoulu you study first your mother tongue for some years, then English, and finally also "the other domestic language".

The Fennophones study Finnish, English, Swedish

The Swedophones study Swedish, English, Finnish

(in some cases a second non-domestic language as French or German is studied in the peruskoulu too).

Hence Finnish is "the other domestic language" for the Swedophone,

and Swedish is "the other domestic language" for the Fennophone.

I guess the words in Finnish and Swedish are "toinen" and "andra" which at least in the case of Swedish can mean both "second" and "other".

-- Ruhrjung 00:58 26 May 2003 (UTC)

Is the link to "Pois pakkoruotsi" necessary? It could only be interestint to people who can read Finnish (and they should read the Finnish wikipedia article instead).

-- Jniemenmaa 18:28 25 May 2003 (UTC)

---

I moved the following paragraphs here:
(maybe they could be re-worded?)

In later times the protected status of the language has become a valued bludgeon to hammer the Swedish government. Since Sweden has been slow to implement even those minority rights for Finnish-Swedes that its own international obligations warrant, this matter is always brought to the forefront when the two countries meet. The perceived hypocrisy of Swedish indignation at for example Estonian tardiness at granting full rights to ethnic Russians, has given some further force to this argument.

== External links: ==

* Pois pakkoruotsi petition (in Finnish) for abolishing compulsory Swedish.

-- Ruhrjung 16:44 28 May 2003 (UTC)

Uhm. What exactly bothers you about the above paragraph? (The links aren't my responsibility) -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 17:25 28 May 2003 (UTC)

The language. The connection to Finnland and Finnish politics is also somewhat fussy, but primarily the language. You don't say so in English, unless you are something like a fringe politician (Glistrup-or-worse rather than Kjaersgaard). I know this is hard for many Finns (and Israelis) to assess, as the level of the style used by Finns ...well, let's just say that "something" often makes Finns appear more aggressive than would be good for you, if you get my drift?
-- Ruhrjung 17:38 28 May 2003 (UTC)

---

Should the entry retain its present name? An explanatory title like "Swedish education in Finland" ought to be more appropriate. The present terminology might be colloquial i Finnish, but it does hardly have the same use in English. Another aspect is that it can be interpreted as a POV or defamatory statement. -- Mic 16:50 28 May 2003 (UTC)

My opinion (if it is worth anything) is that the topic is of fringe interest except for the few fennophiles (like myself) and for Swedes in Sweden. And for us (the fennophiles and the Sweden-Swedes) Pakkoruotsi is the relevant term. There exists a legitime debate in Finland on these issues (although the main interest is held by mathematically geared pupils, that kind which have problems with any language), and Pakkoruotsi is the term most often heard, also in unsober English.

-- Ruhrjung 17:02 28 May 2003 (UTC)

Nobody asked for my opinion, but I tend toward the view that maybe this article need not be here, although it doesn't bother me much, and as long as it's here, I will concentrate on trying to make it as NPOV as possible. On the other hand, it has already, for the better or worse already been translated to several other language wikipedias, so...
Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 17:25 28 May 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure that any one can or should tell what is needed or not on Wikipedia. I am however concerned over the habitually reoccurring NPOV issues which seem to plague the entry. The style of propagation to other language Wikipedias is also starting to look more like advocacy than serious encyclopedia contributions. It seems kind of ridiculous to have an extensive, and rather badly written (machine translated?), article on pakkoruotsi on the French Wikipedia when there barely is an article on the Swedish language as such. I think that there is need for a frank article regarding the position of the Swedish language in Finland, which covers the several different sides of the issue which reflects that there is a real and certainly valid debate on these issues in Finland. But, Wikipedia is not the place to be making advocacy for one position or the other, and I'm questioning whether the name of this article is appropriate. The term may be simple and even witty, but I doubt that an article named "Coerced tutoring in Swedish", or a similar synonym in English, would pass any NPOV standard. -- Mic 19:26 28 May 2003 (UTC)

Thank you for putting into words my feelings for which I lacked the eloquence. The whole polemic of the article seemed to insinuate an ethnic tension in Finland which simply does not exist. Maybe my own contributions didn't help (it's easy to overcompensate on a see-saw], but I think the whole concept is in some sense flawed. It definitely could (at the minimum) benefit from some oversight from someone who knows nothing of the history that is in play. Cimon Avaro on a pogo stick 20:32 28 May 2003 (UTC)

The article looks plain silly, and nothing else. From the start with the title to the end with the rant. Someone must have been severly intoxicated to come up with such an idea. Domestic issues of Finland don't need to be covered in articles of their own. The reader don't get any favorable impression of neither the anti-Pakkoruotsi activists, nor of Finland. 193.14.212.59

---

I don't understand at all why you would complain about this article not being NPOV... I mean, in its current form, it simply just blatantly advocates the Fenno-Swedish position and doesn't even mention once that people disagree with the official status quo. In effect, it is completely biased and doesn't even make a fair attempt at recognizing the other side of the discussion...

I do realize that in Finnish domestic politics ever even slightly questioning the wisdom of the position of Swedish in Finland gives you the automatic label of nazi, but I would have hoped that Wikipedia would have had the guts to recognize that not everyone think it's total bliss...

HuckFinn

I think there hasn't been much of complains lately. The User:193.14.212.59 comment above was made May 28th. The article has improved since then.
--Ruhrjung 06:40, 25 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Somehow, in the series of edits, the English translation of the expression pakkoruotsi seems to have been lost. If it is to be retained, it should be explained. -- Smerdis of Tlön 02:04, 24 Jan 2004 (UTC)

A title reflecting this article's limited scope?

Should we maybe move this article to a page titled something like:

• Mandatory Swedish tuition in Finnish schools
• Tuition in Finland's two domestic languages

or?

/Tuomas 10:43, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Under any circumstances, the neutrality of this article must be considered as disputed. This should be properly indicated, as is done in the article about, say, Yasser Arafat.

The function of the whole article seems to be taking what is essentially a minor internal dispute on an international arena in an improper way. The question of "pakkoruotsi", which is in itself a polemical word coined by an organisation aimed against the minority, should rather be handled as an annex to the situation of the Swedish minority in Finland. (A passer-by, 12 November 2004)

the map

isn't a little strange to put a map in an encylopedia article, along with a whole paragraph explaining why the map is incorrect/biased, followed by a link to an apparently less biased map (which seems to be on the author's personal homepage... wouldn't there be a more official source for it??). if the linked map is indeed less biased, let's just but that on the page instead and get rid of the biased one.

User:84.248.81.201 20:32, 19 Apr 2005 

Wikipedia's copyright policies is one hinderness. But, in fact, although I think none of the alternative maps are to prefer, also the current map is somewhat questionable in the context of Wikipedia:Image use policy. Feel free to improve the article, for instance by a map made by yourself!

:-)

/Tuomas 13:30, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

NPOV

Before the current reverting escalates, I find the edits of 84.231.217.74 (talk · contribs) acceptable. // Fred-Chess 16:54, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

After having had only a quick glance, I can certainly see both the merits of some of the changes, while it seems to me as if, in some other places, the original version was better. Rather than having to choose between the two versions, I think the changes should be discussed on a one-by-one basis. Myself, I won't go through them all right now, but I think some constructive discussion actually will help finding a way we can all agree on. / Alarm 23:43, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

10.9 npov debate

okay so here is the url to the difference between the old and new version that was introduced by 84.231.217.74 http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Mandatory_Swedish&diff=25009146&oldid=23414748

first of all

1. "For the 92% majority in Finland who speak Finnish, this means they have to learn an unusual dialect of Swedish" A dialect is a difference in pronunciation, not in grammar. A school teaches grammar, the fact that many teachers do speak the Finnish-swedish dialect(due to living in Finland) is just like having an Irish english-teacher. There are certain small differences between Swedish and Finnish-swedish, but these are only sparse words (the difference is similar or smaller than that of British-english and US-english), in fact there aren't any spelling differences such as color and colour in english. The swedish language has allot of different dialects that are very different from each other (but not unintelligible to each-other) so could someone please tell me what is the correct Swedish dialect. this claim is exaggerated further with the phrase "It is the view of some opponents that this could actually be achieved better if those who do learn the unusual dialect of Swedish did so of their own free will."

2. why did this sentence have to be removed "Supporters maintain that such a claim is an oxymoron and that Scandinavians find it easier to learn e.g. German and English"

3. "Thus supporters of mandatory Swedish argue that the "ethnic origin", as defined in the directive, does not necessarily apply." No this is also claimed by people with a neutral stance to the debate, due to it in fact being a historical fact.

4. "Supporters claim that mandatory Swedish teaching is also supported by one international treaty (by the now-defunct League of Nations)". It would be great to have a source here as to there being only one such international treaty. and otherwise, what does the defunctness of the league of nations have to do with anything? a contract is a contract. I feel the old "and to some degree supported by international treaties" worked much better.

5. This part also does not sound like good encyclopedia text to me "Those favoring broader choice in language teaching claim that most people don't have, or in any case have a limited natural contact with Swedish-speaking people, and that educational resources are wasted by forcing 92% of the population to learn the language spoken by 6% of the population, and that it is in Finland’s national interest to eliminate the outdated compulsory Swedish policy.". Too specific argumentations might be better addressed in different forums.

6. I found this edit brought very few new facts to the article. This edit contained IMO allot of uncalled for many<->some etc. changes in the authors point of view direction. I personally hate the way all parties try to lurk behind the words some and many and try my best not to use them myself. But it is hard to not use them at all. But for instance: "Among some Finns the derogatory term pakkoruotsi, literally "compulsory Swedish", or even "forced Swedish"" to "Among many Finns the derogatory term pakkoruotsi, literally "compulsory Swedish","

Well yes, it is a common term, i use it myself, but more as a joke. THe people really using it in a derogatory way are a small minority.

this article is also about mandatory swedish, that's why i think the parties involved should be referred to as "supporting/opposing mandatory Swedish" instead of vague wordings such as "Those favoring broader choice in language teaching"

Also, why are Finnish-swedes being claimed to be "so-called", this is also a vague formulation imo.

Please do not get me wrong, i found the contributor has had a few good points. But there is allot that's either vague or biased.

I would ask the author and maybe some neutral party to comment on these pointers and not put in any big edits before considering them thoroughly.

HAND

Gillis 17:15, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

passage on finnish accent in swedish

there was a paragraph explaining that one criticism of mandatory swedish is that finns will always speak it with a finnish accent. i've never heard this argument elsewhere, it doesn't really seem to make any sense (surely one always speaks with an accent when speaking a learnt second language?) so i deleted it.

I agree with you 100% on that. Gillis 14:58, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Some phonemes in Swedish do not exist in Finnish. Many speakers have difficulties with the "sharp" u and y in Swedish. That, however, should not prevent anyone from learning Swedish - or any other language. (Those who speak broken Swedish usually do not manage English well, either.) --Janke | Talk 08:51, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

The anonymous user made me realize we are not adhering to NPOV: the article only takes side for Madnatory Swedish, but what about Mandatory Finnish? Why is there no page on that? / Fred-Chess 13:36, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not as much of a thing, since the Swedish-speakers aren't as reluctant to accept that it's a bilingual country. I think the article should be located under the title Toinen kotimainen kieli though, since the current title is far from being NPOV. - ulayiti (talk) 15:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Obviously not a Finnish name that is unintelligible for non-Finns, when it can be easily translated. How about "Second domestic language in Finnish schools"? I'm open for suggestions though, but not "Toinen kotimainen kieli". / Fred-Chess 16:07, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Agree with Fred, the article name should be in English. However, Fred's title would necessitate looking at the situation equally from the viewpoint of Swedish speakers, but that is more or less a non-issue (see Ulayiti above). Suggestion: "Swedish in Finnish schools". --Janke | Talk 16:28, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I think 'Mandatory Swedish' is pretty much unintelligible to non-Finns as well. But it's not just about schools, so maybe Bilingualism in Finland could be a good title? - ulayiti (talk) 16:13, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I'd go with Fred's suggested article name. In fact maybe "Second domestic language education in finland" would be better, since the article takes up also that only learning it in school is not all that is obligatory, to work in a govt. position you need to be able to pass a _very_ basic test in swedish knowledge for instance (which is mentioned in the article).

NPOV again

the {{NPOV}} is not for Your amusement of showing discontent with an article. It is intended as a guide for edits to improve the article. Slamming NPOV tags because "according to edit summary it was removed because it was there long enough" is NOT applicable. Edit summaries are not reliable evidence whether a tag should be there or not, the article itself is. So describe your arguments, or rewrite parts of the article. I will revert if you continue adding of the tag. Period. Fred-Chess 16:43, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd also appreciate if other edits gave their opinions. Fred-Chess 16:46, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I've read through the newer version of the article re-written by you F.C. and i feel it's a good one, more NPOV than the last one atleast. I see no point in keeping the NPOV, if someone has any direct objections over something in the article i hope they will air them here and we could discuss them (instead of one anon. person totally re-editing the article to fit his perspective as last time). Gillis 17:33, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Pakkoruotsi redirecting here

Well it seems that it is quite disputed if pakkoruotsi should be linked here, seems as Khoikhoi and 84.231.217.70 are having a reverting-competition ;)

I personally am onthe anon users "side" in this specific question (about redirecting pakkoruotsi) since it is more of a derrogatory term used for what this article describes (as if nigger was redirected to black person or something like that). But personally "it's not such a big deal for me" as long as somewhere is mentioned that it in fact is not synonymous, but rather a "derrogatory term" or "Politically charged term" as the anon user put it.

I removed personally the redirect on 5 August 2005, but this was changed back by Ulayiti 3 November 2005. During the article being there Jdm did contribute to it and note to me that he felt it being correct to have it separated (this is what i interreted atleast). Since this whole deal of mandatory swedish is pretty much as someone put it earlyer on this discussion-page

"The function of the whole article seems to be taking what is essentially a minor internal dispute on an international arena in an improper way. The question of "pakkoruotsi", which is in itself a polemical word coined by an organisation aimed against the minority, should rather be handled as an annex to the situation of the Swedish minority in Finland. (A passer-by, 12 November 2004)"

so i feel it is enough if it is in fact redrected, but there could be for instance a passage on the story of the term pakkoruotsi itself... although atleast i'm okay with it having it's own page too.

Other edit's speak up before this is edited too much back and forth.

Gillis 00:24, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

"Pakkoruotsi", being a "PC charged" term for Mandatory Swedish, it should be a redirect here, with the proper mention of the word's POV status. --Janke | Talk 07:13, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Might I add that the same anon that's been changing the redirect has also been trying to add Finland into the Apartheid outside South Africa article. [1] --Khoikhoi 03:06, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

"Pakkoruotsi" is a unique, politically-charged term. That means it really encompasses more than just "Mandatory Swedish." Therefore it deserves its own article. 84.231.217.70 15:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Pakkoruotsi is not anything more than a translation of 'mandatory Swedish' into Finnish. I can't imagine a single reason as to why it should have its own article. - ulayiti (talk) 16:42, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

While nigger as a word has a significant base of literature behind it deserves an article, the pakkoruotsi is a much newer word. If it is a word one would likely encounter as a term in any academical works, then please expand, but if it is only used within Finnish-language texts, then I wouldn't bother.

Yeah i'll have to agree with you there Fred, i also vote for keeping the redirect and explaining the PC status of the word in the article Gillis 18:38, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

By the way, I added this article to Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Language and linguistics. / Fred-Chess 17:56, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

An outsiders questions

I think the article is close to achieving NPOV but there are some things I don't understand that might help me better judge.

1. Why was the Constitution wriiten to provide for two languages?
2. Do the people who want to end mandatory Swedish want to also change the requiremants for civil service? And to what effect?
3. What exactly does civil service imply in Finland? Is just the running of the goverment itself or does the goverment run the railrods etc. there?
4. Are the people who dislike the policy mainly going through a "schoolboy rebbellion" or what is the underlying issue they are opposing?
5. Does the opposition think another language or choice of languages or none at all should be taught at that level of schooling?

Other comments:

I think in the begining of the article it needs to be said that this policy applies to all of Finland exept the Åland islands because of such reasons after the Åland crisis. The article really needs that link in my opinion. And then count the percentage of Finnish speakers vs Swedish speakers affected by this policy.

Read Article 153 of the Constitution of Malaysia a supurbly NPOV article that deals with similar minority rights/goverment policy issues. --Birgitte§β ʈ Talk 15:46, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi Birgitte, thanks for taking part in our discussion here. I'll try to and clear up your questions as neutrally as possible

"Why was the Constitution wriiten to provide for two languages?"

The reasons are mostly historical and therefore also cultural, i think the historical background could be better explained. Well the main argument/reason is that swedish-language always has been a part of the finnish culture in the same way finnish-language has been. finland was a part of sweden between the 12th and 19th century (some argue finland was not officially a part of sweden before the late 14th century), it is noteworthy that before this time no sovereign Finland existed. The history as part of sweden has formed the finnish culture in a way that it is quite hard to get a grip of it without understanding the swedish-speaking aspect, for instance one example could be Finland's national anthem that was originally written in Swedish. So the swedish-speakers are not merely a linguistic minority due to immigration/emigration as sometimes is thought.

"Do the people who want to end mandatory Swedish want to also change the requiremants for civil service? And to what effect?"

Well, i think there is no one answer to this, but dedicated grassroot organisations, such as "suomalaisuuden liitto" (the league of finnishness) does have the aim of reducing Swedish to the level of the sami languages in finland (not official languge, but listed as "one of finland's languages"). But i guess the broader base of the opposition for mandatory swedish aren't really after changing finland's bi-linguality in the constituition which requires the test for people in civil service. But of course it could become quite hard to require this in civil service if no mandatory education was held. Some argue here that interpreters could be used in order to keep up the services in swedish.

"What exactly does civil service imply in Finland? Is just the running of the goverment itself or does the goverment run the railrods etc. there?"

The Finnish government runns many of the civil services, at least in comparisonto the united states. But it is noteworthy that the requirements of swedish for civil services are _very_ basic.

"Are the people who dislike the policy mainly going through a "schoolboy rebbellion" or what is the underlying issue they are opposing?"

Mandatory second domestic language teaching is usually more dissliked during school years (i was not a big fan of it either! ;)). And i guess the possible views against it are more moderate amongst the adult population. The views of it also differ quite a bit around finland since the swedish-speaking minority is not evenly spread over the country and many finns have very little natural contact with swedish-speakers.

"Does the opposition think another language or choice of languages or none at all should be taught at that level of schooling?"

I think the main argument in opposing mandatory second language teaching is that it supposedly takes up resources from teaching other subjects. But I haven't heard of any unison plan about what exactly should be taught instead of swedish for finnish-speakers/finnish for swedish speakers.

Thank's for your other suggestions too. It could also be noted that Åland in fact is autonomous, and has the right to govern itself on educational issues. Also it is notable that Many students on Åland take the finnish matriculation examination from HS, which is governed under "the finnish rules".

Gillis 18:29, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

"requirements of swedish for civil services are _very_ basic". All you need to know is "jag vet inte" :) --HJV 11:39, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

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As I believe Gillis here gave a rather POV response to the questions, which of course do reflect well the official party lines -- it's the "official explanation" -- it serves rather badly to understand the position of those who oppose our language policies. So let me respond in kind, but from my own POV to the most important points raised... I will give more exposition than just answering to the bullet points, bear with me.

The constitution was written the way it is because in early times Swedish still was more dominant as a language than what it is today, and more people spoke it. The proportion of Swedish-speakers was somewhere around 15% (correct if wrong) -- now it's around 6% -- and because of our history, they indeed were a more powerful block than their numbers. Also, during the early time of independence, there was some need of goodwill from Sweden, and a need to quickly shut up the svecomans who still pretty much wanted to join Sweden, so in that sense it was a question of national unity as well. The language part of the constitution was actually rather controversial; finally the Finnish-only side gave in.

Then there was also the issue of the national romantic period of 1800s, which was a weird mixture of mostly Swedish-speaking academics being drawn into romantic Karelianism and the Nordism of Runeberg, who wrote poetry about pining back to Sweden after Sweden lost Finland to Russia in the beginning of the century. His attempts at glorifying the struggle of the losers and the rationalization of the new situation of the country, his POV firmly in the Swedish-speaking high society (not that it was particularly high, but anyway), earned him the title of national poet. I guess he deserves it for commemorating the historical event -- although from a strange perspective -- that probably saved the Finnish-speaking Finns from complete assimilation into Sweden.

The retort that "you guys even sing your national anthem in translation" has always felt like a particularly cruel political weapon to be used among people of supposedly the same nationality, as it totally ignores the fact that the reason why Fenno-Swedes are so heavily over-represented in our "official" national culture of the 1800s -- the classic romantic period -- is simply because you had to be Swedish-speaking to begin with to gain entry into the rather monopolized cultural and societal circles where this stuff was being done! It's not as if it is my fault as a modern Finnish-speaker that this was the case! I am not saying that there weren't some important people there, it's just that some historical context should be acknowledged before getting all misty-eyed with nostalgia. Who knows what might have happened, if Finnish-speakers had not been kept out of university, say. To claim this was not due to societal structure is, mind you, somewhat racist -- I have a hard time believing that Finnish-speakers just simply naturally suck and need some heavy civilizing through Swedish, as was claimed by Freudenthal and pals.

When it comes to the non-high-culture, I would claim that throughout most of history, Finnish-speakers have lived perfectly happily speaking Finnish and having Swedish as a foreign language -- that they didn't know, as they were too busy making a small living off the land and fighting for the king in Stockholm. You should note that not even during the Swedish reign were Finnish-speakers _made to_ learn Swedish, although it of course was of fundamental importance if you wanted to advance in society. When Russia conquered Finland, we started getting more rights in education and finally even official status for Finnish. The university of Helsinki didn't allow studies in Finnish fully until the 1920-30s, after lots of strife (fist-fights amongst different-language students etc). After that, you started seeing Finnish-speakers in their rightful positions in society in greater numbers. So... frankly, all this talk about the wonderful influence Swedish has had in this country boils down to the idea that I should feel some sort of gratitude. I certainly recognize history for what it is, but don't ask me to admire it. It took an edict from the Czar in 1863 to get that official position for Finnish, for chrissakes.

Ok, so that much for history. I don't really believe all that much in drawing conclusions from what has been to what should be. If that were the case, some countries would still have slavery. Knowing history is different from perpetuating it. In modern days, Finland is just as much a Western European country as any of them, and not particularly "Swedish" at that. Actually I would say that we have definitely differing characteristics from the rest of the Nordic countries, which are immortalized in our national stereotypes...

Now, the big question in Finland is what does it MEAN for the individual citizen that the constitution states "Finland's national languages are Finnish and Swedish"? Originally, the idea was that Finnish-speakers get to be Finnish-speakers and Swedish-speakers get to be Swedish-speakers, and the government will serve both in their own language and provide for things like education in the respective tongues. Alongside with this kind of thinking, over the 1900s, the Fenno-Swedes created all sorts of parallel, auxiliary institutions to support a kind of parallel but separate existence. One should remember that in the late 1800s and all the way to WW2 a lot of the Fenno-Swedish academics were quite busy with the idea of proving that Fenno-Swedes form a separate people in Finland that is related to Swedes. Actually, while I don't want to particularly "isolate" myself from Fenno-Swedes, I kind of like this interpretation -- it respects everyone's right to be who they are.

During the Cold War and beginning in the 1970s-80s, someone realized, that this wasn't going to look good for the Fenno-Swedes in the long term. They were being assimilated into the mainstream population, and Swedish was facing the threat of becoming a sort of high-priest language used in official speeches but not much elsewhere. So the "separate people" argument took a complete U-turn: now the constitution was to be interpreted so as to apply the two language principle to each citizen on a personal level. The SFP (Fenno-Swedish party) started demanding that in order to maintain a "living" Swedish language in Finland, the language needs to be extended to everyone, regardless of where they live in the country (Swedish is concentrated along coastlines, and the inner parts of the country are pretty much completely unilingually Finnish). Because Finland was pretty desperate to prove that it is "Nordic" instead of semi-Soviet during the Cold War, the modern language policy was formulated.

The policy has two prongs: the mandatory Swedish in schools -- and starting in 1979 even in university, even if you're in a completely irrelevant field like yours truly, computer science -- and language requirements in the civil service. The civil service requirements tend to get tighter every time the relevant language laws are revised, mostly because the relevant civil servants don't really bother to abide by them or don't really know enough Swedish (because they don't ever use it). The rules about where services need to be provided in which language are very lax to include as much of the country as possible as bilingual and also seem to be changed every time a major Finnish city would otherwise fall unilingual due to dwindling Swedish-speaking population -- they have been changed multiple times for Turku, for instance. This creates situations where ALL civil servants are required Swedish skills as a matter of principle, regardless of actual need. The university Swedish exam is the "civil servant exam" as well -- I can't for the life of me imagine how I am going to be a software-developing civil servant who "serves Swedish-speakers in their own language"! The exam itself is for the time being easy as is mentioned, but the problem is that the legal framework is there. During the latest revisioning of the language law there was even talk of "sanctions" towards people/towns who don't cut it... this, in my view, starts to resemble discrimination against Finnish-speakers, as requirements for a job need to, according to law, be reasonably grounded in actual need and relevance.

To complete the circular reasoning, the mandatory Swedish in schools is partially being grounded in the logic of "but you can't get a public sector job if you don't speak Swedish!" Certainly, if you removed the most draconian requirements, you would lose a great deal of the motivation for the teaching of the language too. Its usefulness is of course otherwise rather limited; Finns would be better off equipped with more diverse language skills. Sorry Gillis, but you are guilty of unfortunately typical tunnel vision when you claim there are no reasonable alternatives... hell, German, French and Russian would all be perfectly good ones. I would speak fluent German and French at the moment in addition to my English if I had spent my Swedish lessons on them instead. At the moment I have no time anymore to just study them on my free time, as my field of expertise is more on the sciences side of things. Languages are good, but damage happens on when you insist on monopolizing everyone's language studies when it comes to one language just to satisfy your own political goals.

Usefulness argumentation aside, the one issue that tends to inflame emotions is that of identity. People get justifiedly pissed off when someone comes to educate them on their own identity. Forcing yourself on someone and then claiming they are intolerant if they don't like it is a nasty tactic. If you listen to most propaganda on "Swedishness days" from SFP and even like-minded other politicians, the whole excercise seems to aim at making people "think right" about language issues in the country. In the same breath, they are able to lament and worry about the "alienation" Finns feel about the part of their identity they are supposed to embrace and then demand more legislation to make it happen -- either more teaching or more demands that help them "make use" of their language skills to make it feel worthwhile. The latest idea is to "language-bathe" kids early on so they wouldn't grow up to be dissidents like me. The sad part is that it will probably work in a generation or two; a lot of my peers are already parroting easy to counter SF-lines in the spirit of "mathematics is mandatory too!" and "bilinguality is enriching!" -- I really cry at the lameness of our political discourse in this matter.

It should give everyone pause that this supposed happy-happy bilingual family requires such a government mechanism to uphold -- the very same SFP politicians are very clear in stating that it is at risk if government doesn't methodically pursue these policies. I would suggest that instead of more government action, the more reasonable conclusion is the homogenized bilingual Finland doesn't exist and shouldn't be created, if people obviously aren't voluntarily engaging in its construction. If they are correct about your assumptions regarding Finnish ideals and identity, they should not have anything to fear from freedom, right? Letting kids drop Swedish from their high school finals has caused 15% to actually excercise the option. These are the ones who would fail because of Swedish if they couldn't do this, no matter how good they may be at other subjects.

A disclaimer: I have nothing against Fenno-Swedes as a minority group, so don't try to pull any intolerance arguments on me. It is all too typical to just shut all reasonable critics of a political position out of the discussion because "OMG they are against teh minority". I do hold the rights of Finnish-speakers close to heart as they were difficult to win during history, and we may just as well not have survived. Tolerance means allowing others to be who they are. I do not believe our current language policy is tolerant, as it seeks to shape people into something.. politically acceptable, as some people have problems with the idea of Finland having folks who do not share in to the wonderful Swedish language. It is unacceptable to me that Finnish-speakers are specifically denied the same language identity protection that is granted to for example the people in Åland -- which protects its "special Swedish-speaking character" up to the point of open racism, for example denying the right to set up private Finnish-speaking schools for children of people staying in Åland for work. The theory that all mainland Finns "are" Swedish-speakers but don't know it yet is suspect, and the laws that permit double standards are wrong.

My own policy would call for preservation of the constitution in its current form, but relaxation of the language laws in order to respect the identity related to a person's mother tongue more, and to eliminate the politically motivated language-requirement "filters" that are nowadays in place to stop those people from advancing in life who don't toe the line or just can't get their minds around the language. Just because someone is Fenno-Swedish and would like the rest of the country to be in his own image, doesn't mean the Finnish-speakers must bend over backwards to accommodate that wish. One SHOULD remember that in the past 10-15 years, some 50-70% of people have systematically responded in various polls that Swedish should be voluntary. It's just such a touchy issue that nobody wants to get the Nazi accusations for being the first to mention it openly...

Sorry this got long-winded, I really believe that foreign readers need the background from another perspective too, the SFP-line is a bit suffocating to genuine discussion and readers REALLY need to be shown that there are some real issues here, not just the petulance of some insignificant fanatic minority as it seems to me is being argued... and I also hope this elucidation responded to Birgitte's question on whether this is all just schoolboy rebellion... I have actually been told it is, and that my subsequent frustration at such an idiotic response is just proof thereof... HuckFinn 00:24, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Your rant is really such a long, and mostly based on your personal expiriences and feelings, one that i can't really give it "one answer" it would be better to keep to specific points per post relating to changes to be done or discussed for the article. We are writing an encyclopedic article, not discussing oppinions on a web forum. Please be more specific in your opinons for the article and i assure you discussing them will be more efficient. turning up this debate would become a personal debate, escalating into personal attacks, as you already seem to address me with parts of this text, which is a bit odd. Gillis 21:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

future-clause

Anyone else who finds this useless? i mean a EU directive that is six years old is not exactly new.

I think that it has been legally proven that the argument given by "some" (as the article puts it) does not have an effect, since as teh article explains it swedish-speakers are not considered an "ethnic minority".

Gillis 18:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, should be removed. Anti-racism has nothing to do with bilinguality. This clause may even be original research. --Janke | Talk 08:27, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I now removed it, grief can be aired here if someone wants it back Gillis 10:51, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

the revert done at 23:01, 1 March 2006

Okay, well the calm around this article held a few months, now there is some aggressive non-discussed edits going on again where the editor seems to have commented out everything he or she disslikes and requested sources... well here goes.

a. "n Finnish schools, Swedish is a mandatory subject on practically all levels of public education" No it isn't, "pakkoruotsi" starts in ylä-aste, and ends in lukio, certain university grades etc. then also need students to pass "virkamiesruotsi", but this isn't education, it's just a really easy test which requires knowledge of the subject not specificly any new education.

b. Source? Due to Finland having two national languages Wikipedia: article on Finland, in fact this IS wrong, finnish and swedish are not just official languages, they are national languages (official languages also cotnain Sami and "viittomakieli".

c. Tautology. the Swedish language is mandatory in the Finnish-speaking schools, and the Finnish language is mandatory in Swedish language schools.

No it's not a tautology

d. " The Finnish name for both Mandatory Swedish and Mandatory Finnish is "toinen kotimainen kieli", literally "the second domestic language". For Mandatory Swedish, some Finn students use the name pakkoruotsi which literally means "forced Swedish"."

I see no reason why this shouldn't stay as it was.

e. Overview, yes it is releant to people that are not from Finland and don't have the backgrounds.

f. "B.S., any sources? The official reasons are that both languages are official languages of Finland, due to the history of Sweden-Finland empire, which makes both languages part of the Finnish culture. (See further Finland's language strife)"

Well okay, the term "Official reason" is perhaps wrong, but this is in a way obvious since it is in fact true that Finnish culture contains also the swedish language, are you saying Finland does not have a linguistic minotirty and wasn't a part of sweden for approx. more than 500 years?

g. "Biased lies. Any sources? A compulsory Swedish may also bring Finland closer to the Nordic countries, since Swedish is quite similar to both Danish and Norwegian, while the Finnish language belong to the vastly different Finno-Ugric languages group. For this reason, supporters maintain that Mandatory Swedish improves learning of other Germanic languages, such as English and German. Lastly, they argue, Mandatory Swedish is necessary to ensure that all citizens can interact with governmental institutions in their own language."

Notice the word "May", of course some vague wording like "one reason for..." could be used but i think this works. This is not the kind of thing that really can be sourced as it is an common opinion and so is stated.

And as a last thing: I don't see a need for huge changes in the articles POV as it wen't through extensive third party peer reviews before reaching this form. There just seems to be stubborn changers or pseudo-vandals around (having often resulted in a lock down in the same article in fi-wikip).

HAND Gillis 23:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Good call Gillis.

Fred-Chess 11:52, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

This is stupid. Finland's official languages are Finnish and Swedish. Sami, Roma and Sign language are the three official minor languages. --Lalli 23:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid you are a bit incorrect in case you are reffering to my comment, the following citing is from the finnish constitution (in swedish).

"17 § Rätt till eget språk och egen kultur

Finlands nationalspråk är finska och svenska.

Vars och ens rätt att hos domstol och andra myndigheter i egen sak använda sitt eget språk, antingen finska eller svenska, samt att få expeditioner på detta språk skall tryggas genom lag. Det allmänna skall tillgodose landets finskspråkiga och svenskspråkiga befolknings kulturella och samhälleliga behov enligt lika grunder.

Samerna såsom urfolk samt romerna och andra grupper har rätt att bevara och utveckla sitt språk och sin kultur. Bestämmelser om samernas rätt att använda samiska hos myndigheterna utfärdas genom lag. Rättigheterna för dem som använder teckenspråk samt dem som på grund av handikapp behöver tolknings- och översättningshjälp skall tryggas genom lag."

This means Finnish and Swedish are national languages, this gives speakers of these two languages far more rights to government interaction etc. in their own language. The Sami and the Roma have a right to cherish their culture and recieve certain services in their own language as their status as official minority languages allow them. Also the right to use sign language or any other handicap induced translation in government issues is allowed.

The same passage can be read at this unofficial english translation of the constitution: http://www.om.fi/uploads/54begu60narbnv_1.pdf

The official constitution can be read at the legal database Finlex

In Finnish: http://www.finlex.fi/fi/laki/ajantasa/1999/19990731 In Swedish: http://www.finlex.fi/sv/laki/ajantasa/1999/19990731

HAND Gillis 11:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Student's oppinions?

Under the heading student's oppinions i see just a load of arguments against compulsory Swedish. Either the passage should be re-labeled, or split into many headings or those parts removed, ideas?

Gillis 23:34, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Or could it POSSIBLY be that these students are perfectly entitled to their opinion, and that there's a load of arguments against compulsory Swedish because they disagree with it and want to actually have the issue discussed instead of just having themselves "removed"? HuckFinn 00:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

"these students" sorry "huck" but you are just generalizing far too much here. You can't say _all_ students feel this way about the swedish classes, that's why you could have a header with "critisism" or something for that. Gillis 21:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Gillis, I encourage you to remove any unsourced statements in the section, and (if you have the time and possibility) to rewrite it and add proper references. I know that you are competent and want what is best for the article. / Fred-Chess 19:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Renaming the article

As discussed earlier on this talk page there has been discussion about renaming this article, but nothing has been done. I would support the renaming of this article, to for instance "Second domestic language education/tuition in Finnish schools", because right now it's called "mandatory Swedish" although it has to explain in several places that learning the other national language is also compulsory for the minority etc.etc. and this really is not such an important article that i'd go for having a "mandatory Finnish" article separately or something like that. So i'd say redirect mandatory Finnish to the renamed article. Anyone in favour? Or well i guess more importantly, does anyone object to this? and if so, why?

Gillis 21:54, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I support such a move. At least "Second domestic education in Finnish schools" is better than "mandatory Swedish". I suppose there are more concise names, but if so, the article could just be moved again. / Fred-Chess 22:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Finnish and Swedish languages in Finland's education are not conceptually equal, or equal in practice. As a prerequisite for graduation in all levels of education, knowledge in a 5% minority language is an idiosyncrasy, while knowledge in a 93% majority language is not. The two concepts of mandatory Swedish and mandatory Finnish are not parallel, and the arguments mentioned in the article cannot be generalized for the two. Also, regarding the proposed name "second domestic language education", I oppose this name specifically, because it is an euphemism, and it represents the official opinion, not the neutral point of view. Furthermore, the article does not even discuss mandatory Finnish. --Vuo 16:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)