Talk:Water memory

This article is of low quality because it is biased. The writer of this article presumes to speak for "modern science" when in fact, physics Nobel Prize winner Brian Josephson has spoken in defense of Benveniste's work. One would think that a Nobel Prize winner would be considered a member of "modern science".

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A scientific hypothesis doesn't have to be shown to be wrong in order to be rejected or ignored - it is rejected if it can't be shown to be right - which is what has happened with water memory (so far, at least: new evidence could change that, of course).

This is a common misunderstanding among proponents of fringe theories: They think that once something has been proposed, it has to be accepted unless it is disproved. ("No one has ever found an error!" is a common cry amongst the true believers.) The way science works is that hypotheses can safely be ignored until they are shown to be right (or at least close enough that it's worth the effort to bridge the gap).

Which is why I reverted the last edit. - DavidWBrooks 00:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Disagree with the links attached to the article

I am not arguing that it's right or wrong. I am saying that it has not been proven to be right or wrong, therefore it should not just be considered "Bad science" or "Scientific misconduct" as the attached links suggest.

Which is why I am going to remove these links than. Yurivict

The fact that the scientific community at large considers the issue of water memory to be associated with junk science / bad science and scientific misconduct is all that is necessary for the links to be included in the article. If you dissent, that is fine; but you cannot over-rule mainstream scientific consensus. I encourage you to add a (NPOV) dissenting section to the article, outlining support for water memory, rather than simply cutting out the bits you disagree with. Best wishes :) -- FP 09:15, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

P.S. Remember that in any article, "see also" links are not necessarily directly associated with the given topic, nor do they constitute a "judgement" of the topic. Rather, they have some relevant association. I'm sure everyone interested in water memory would also be interested in the concepts of junk science and scientific misconduct, irrespective of their position on the existence of water memory. Fair enough? -- FP 09:21, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

Can you provide references that "scientific community at large considers the issue of water memory to be associated with junk science / bad science / scientific misconduct"? As I understand community has only rejected this theory. There are two experiments that I am aware of showing no proof of water memory. But there is no evidence known to me that affiliates of this theory are insincere, therefore why "misconduct"? There is no proof that such memory does not / can not exist. If any -- references please. Yurivict

I don't want to get into an endless debate on the evidence for and against homeopathy (I could, but it's not necessary). All I want to do is demonstrate the rationale for the links as they exist in the "see also" section.

• Start by reading homeopathy and its talk page. That should demonstrate to you that the topic is at least controversial, and certainly a good many intelligent people do not believe in water memory. These pages also list plenty of evidence that casts doubt on the idea of water memory and the motives of some proponents.
• Read Jacques Benveniste's obituary in Nature, the world's most prestigious scientific journal (here) (Quote: "widely disbelieved by scientists").
• The above-mentioned Benveniste was sacked from INSERM after his infamous experiments were shown to be poorly designed and erroneous. Sloppy procedure, with improper data recording, inexplicable artifacts and repeated failures of replication suggest scientific misconduct, bad science and/or junk science. Many other scientific magazines said as much in various editorials (I imagine I could find precise issue and page numbers, but I hope that won't be necessary).

These references should convince you that irrespective of whether water memory actually exists, the linked pages have some relevance to the article. For instance, let's say a hard-core supporter of Benveniste visits this page. He might appreciate the "see also" links which you object to, as they tell him about these ideas that have been associated, rightly or wrongly, with Benveniste and water memory in general. The mere fact that these pages are linked in "see also" does not constitute a definitive verdict on water memory. They belong.

Finally, I'm interested why you object to these three terms (junk science, bad science, scientific misconduct) but don't seem to mind pseudoscience and pathological science. Can you tell me why you don't want to remove these terms? (If you accept that water memory constitutes pseudoscience, you must tacitly admit it is also bad science!) -- FP 11:51, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

These different pseudo, junk, pathological, proto and bad science, together with scientific misconduct definitions need to be linked in one article. The effect of referring to them as a list of different links in this way could be considered intimidatory. Please remove them: they are all self-referential in any case - that is, pursuing one leads to the others. Alternatively, add examples where the scientific community has first ridiculed and then had to accept advances in knowledge and understanding.

I am not making a judgment on the issue of water memory Jeffrey Newman 05:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I suggest, as well as above, also adding, e.g holistic science and others as necessary, to preserve NPOV Jeffrey Newman 09:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

In retrospect I agree that the list of links was "intimidatory." I have made some provisional changes in the interests of NPOV. If anyone desires more changes, please go ahead and make them, and we will discuss it here if any more disagreements emerge. -- FP ^{<talk><edits>} 03:47, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Polywater

In what way could polywater be thought of as similar to water memory? This statement seems to be suspect. Polywater was, as the name implies, believed to be a polymerized form of water. I am unaware of any "memory effect" involved, nor do the properties have anything in common. Maury 12:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)