Talk:Anarcho-capitalism

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Concerns about the lead

Anarcho-capitalism is an individualist philosophy based on the idea of individual sovereignty, and a prohibition against initiatory coercion and fraud.

Laissez-faire capitalism is arguably the most important aspect of anarcho-capitalism (hence the existence of the term capitalism in the name), so why is there no mention of laissez-faire capitalism in this defining sentence? Why do I have to wait until the middle of the paragraph to see a mention of capitalism? Moreover, I would like someone to tell me the specific source(s) from which this definition is dervied (in particular, the clause about "initiatory coercion and fraud"); otherwise, there is no way for me to verify it and I will have no other choice but to consider it original research. -- WGee 02:13, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalists define capitalism as voluntary exchange...a free market. Some people define capitalism in other ways. I agree it needs a more definitional type intro sentence. Here is one from a source: "Anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism whose prime tenet is that the free market, unhampered by government intervention, can coordinate all the functions of society currently carried out by the state, including systems of justice and national defense. Anarcho-capitalists believe that a system of private property based on individual rights is the only moral system - a system that implies a free market, or total voluntarism, in all transactions. (Brown, Susan Love, The Free Market as Salvation from Government: The Anarcho-Capitalist View, Meanings of the Market: The Free Market in Western Culture, edited by James G. Carrier, Berg/Oxford, 1997, p. 99. (Article is a criticism of anarcho-capitalism. Brown is not an anarcho-capitalist.)) TheIndividualist 02:19, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Introductory paragraph

I read the introductory paragraph three times, and I am still rather confused at the exact definition of anarcho-capitalism. There needs to be a solid definition, not the bs™ that's there now - "Anarcho-capitalism is an individualist philosophy based on the idea of individual sovereignty, and a prohibition against initiatory coercion and fraud." - well it's interesting it's based on that, but what is it? "Its proponents see the only just basis for law as arising from the right to non-coercively acquired private property and an unlimited right of contract between individuals." - That doesn't help define anarcho-capitalism either, and some individuals may encounter difficulty even comprehending that sentence at all. In fact, this entire article should be cut down and simplified a bit, and could someone insert a solid definition into the first 2 sentences? +Hexagon1 ^(t) 05:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I put a first sentence definition in there. "Anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism that proposes that all goods and services, including defense of liberty and property, should be supplied in a free market rather than by the state." TheIndividualist 06:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a highly contentious claim. I removed it. --AaronS 15:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, looking like if you call Anarcho-capitalism a form of anarchism, you get folks coming out of the woodwork. Wild stuff, and this seems to be one of those topics that engenders a lot of strong opinions.--Rosicrucian 15:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The sentence that is there now sounds about right - Anarcho-capitalism is an individualist political philosophy that calls for the abolition of the state and the coordinatation of all functions of society, including justice and national defence, by the free market.. It's a definition, at the least. +Hexagon1 ^(t) 04:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Anarchism or Libertarianism?

While I can certainly see a case made for either, isn't two sidebars a bit much? Unless we can move one of them down so they both occupy the same space on the right, it really clutters up the article layout. Personally I'd say Anarcho-capitalism has more in common with the articles in the Anarchism series (particularly Anarcho-syndicalism) than with articles in the Libertarianism series.--Rosicrucian 14:48, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

...and I just visited Template talk:Anarchism and figured out what a can of worms I just opened. Wow. Guess this will have to wait until the template debate is over (if ever).--Rosicrucian 15:05, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that two sidebars is too much, but I haven't removed either for the very reason you listed. They could at least be put one after the other rather than side-by-side. I will try that, hopefully it won't ignite passions. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 16:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Layout looks much improved as a result. I suppose we could have some contention over which one to put first, but I do hope we can all agree that the new layout makes the overall article more readable.--Rosicrucian 16:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

It certainly does, and I dearly hope we don't start arguing about which comes first. That would be quite silly. =) --AaronS 16:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course, the research is proving bewildering. Every time I delve further and come closer to saying "okay, this is closer to anarchism" or "okay, this is closer to libertarianism" I find another passage that swings me the other way. Certainly Rothbard believed this to be an anarchist philosophy, but so many of the ideals involved are libertarian in nature, and it certainly doesn't clear things up to find that the man also practically codified what we now identify as libertarianism in the modern sense. Until I can wrap my head around this better any edits and suggestions I make will be procedural and layout oriented rather than content-oriented.--Rosicrucian 21:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

That makes sense. One of the difficulties with these articles is that it does require a lot of background knowledge. I admit that my own understanding of all of the different anarchist philosophies is elementary at best. --AaronS 21:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

POV and OR

I added the tags, due to TheIndividualist's most recent edit. That anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism is a highly contentious claim that does not belong in the article lead. It's also an example of WP:OR, becuase it's introducing a new synthesis of ideas into Wikipedia. Further, the MS Encarta source is misattributed. Finally, that "some people view it that way" is not enough justification for it to be in the article lead; those are weasel words. Please stop reverting. Thanks. --AaronS 16:41, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Saying "some regard as a form of individualist anarchism" is not "weasel words" if they are sourced, which they are. It is a true and indisputable statement that anarcho-capitalism is "considered by some to be a form of individualist anarchism." Your complaint is off the chain. TheIndividualist 16:45, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Off the chain? I'm not quite sure what that means. Read the guidelines on weasel words. Sources can be found to justify just about anything (especially primary sources). A while back, on Talk:Anarchism, I showed how one could make Karl Marx look like an anarchist simply by selectively citing the Communist Manifesto. Whether or not anarcho-capitalism is a form of individualist anarchism is already discussed in anarchism and anarcho-capitalism. That's where the discussion belongs. It certainly does not belong in the lead of the article. --AaronS 20:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Aaron is saying that those statements don't belong in the intro, i agree. they certianly should be included elsewhere, however. Blockader 19:22, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

And certainly they are included elsewhere in the article, complete with citation. Given that it is under dispute, it certainly shouldn't be in the first sentence as that will only give casual readers the wrong impression. The link between anarcho-capitalism and individualism is not core to the definition of the term, and thus should be left for later in the article where the nuances of it can be properly explained.--Rosicrucian 21:37, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. The core to the definition of the term is that it is an anti-statist free market philosophy. Why not use that as the lead, instead? Anarcho-capitalism might trumpet individualism, but that doesn't make it individualist anarchism, because individualist anarchism is its own philosophy with its own history and its own sphere of influence, and so on. "Individualist anarchism" isn't just an adjective-noun grouping -- it's a complete term, denoting a philosophy. --AaronS 21:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong. Individualist anarchism is a broad school of anarchism. All individualist forms of anarchism are individualist anarchism. Common sense. Individualist anarchism is not a defined philosophy other than being an individualist form of anarchism. Every individualist anarchist has his own idiosyncratic philosophy. And there is not just one source but many sources. TheIndividualist 23:55, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Rothbard, who coined the term "anarcho-capitalism," said that he wasn't an individualist anarchist. Anarcho-capitalism may be individualistic, and it might possibly be anarchism, but it is not individualist anarchism. --AaronS 01:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You're missing the point. What the others are saying is that it doesn't belong in the lead sentence, firstly because it is a highly contentious statement that makes use of weasel words to create the illusion of neutrality, and secondly because it is not the defining tenet of anarcho-capitalism. Keep the defining sentence simple and concise, then explain these complex nuances later, and in much more detail. To say that it is an "individualist philosophy" is sufficient enough for the lead sentence. However, are there any non-partisan, reputable sources to attest to the assertion that anarcho-capitalism is a "philosophy"? If multiple sources are not provided, we should change "philosophy" to "ideology".

Moreover, your edits did make use of weasel words, which Wikipedia editors should avoid. You cannot say the article "exemplifies our very best work" while it violates Wikipedia guidelines in the first sentence.

-- WGee 00:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Yep. --AaronS 01:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

---

I changed the lead to this: Anarcho-capitalism is an individualist economic and political philosophy that calls for the abolition of the state, so that all goods and services, including defense of liberty and property, may be supplied in a free market. It can probably be improved, so tweak it as much as you want. I also removed the {{POV}} and {{OR}} tags. --AaronS 01:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Other-language Wikipedias

Non-English Wikipedias seem to place anarcho-capitalism within the rubric of liberalism or libertarianism, not anarchism. See the [Spanish article], for instance. The French Wikipedia places it in its series on libertarianism. Its lead is: L'anarcho-capitalisme est une théorie de la liberté. Combinaison du libéralisme et de l'individualisme, c'est une philosophie du droit basée sur le principe de non-agression. Rough translation: Anarcho-capitalism is a theory of liberty. A combination of libertarianism and individualism, it is a right-wing philosophy based upon the non-aggression principle. There seems to be quite a disparity, here. --AaronS 02:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Indeed there is a disparity. If people wish to assert as fact that anarcho-capitalism is a strand of anarchism, they must support that assertion with several reputable, authoritative sources. Saying that anarcho-capitalism is a school of anarchism is to say that libertarian socialism is a genre of libertarianism, an assertion that virtually all political scientists rebuff. The two ideologies may share their desire for utter liberty, but they fundamentally disagree about what "liberty" should entail, or how to achieve this ideal. Ignore the semantics of the term for a moment and ask yourself: Does anarcho-capitalism share more in common with the pro-capitalist, state-weary ideologies of libertarianism or with the anti-capitalist ideologies of anarchism? The answer, I think, is clear. The fervently capitalist ideals of anarcho-capitalism simply aren't compatible with the vehemently anti-capitalist ideologies that comprise anarchism. -- WGee 02:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm still mulling it over myself. The originator calls it anarchism, and it calls for the abolition of the state which is a common thread throughout anarchistic philosophies. Its notions on government as a coercive control shew very closely to other anarchy movements.

However economically it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and the originator is one of the core theorists behind what modern political scientists recognize as libertarianism. He also does very little to distinguish it from his theories and musing on libertarianism, and many of the American Libertarian Party claim to be anarcho-capitalists.

It's a damnably fuzzy line to me.--Rosicrucian 02:41, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the ideology of "anarcho-capitalism" is a relatively new one. Although it derives ideas from ideologies that have existed for centuries, it is fundamentally new in its organization of these ideas. Usually it is the independent political science community who, some time later, classifies an ideology; but here it is the anarcho-capitalists who are classifying their own ideology right now. The question in my mind is: how can and why would the creators of anarcho-capitalism justifiably place it in a category comprised of ardently anti-capitalist ideologies? Anarcho-capitalism is despised by the anarchists and anti-capitalist anarchism by anarcho-capitalists, so it does not make sense to try to unite the two under the same category. The only connection between them is their support for the abolition of the state.

But does anarcho-capitalism's contempt for the state make it an anarchist ideology? I don't think so. Anarchism, in its general semantical meaning, is the belief that all forms of rulership are undesirable and should be abolished. However, in its historical and political meaning (which is what we should be discussing), anarchism not only supports the abolition of the state, but full social, economic, and political equality, as well. The first self-declared anarchist, Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, abhorred capitalism as a source of hierarchy and oppression, and that tradition continued in the dominate anarchist writers who superceded him, including Kropotkin and Bakunin. That political tradition does not change merely because of some 20th-century anarcho-capitalists who wish to become members of the anarchist clan.

-- WGee 03:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You're wrong that all anarchism is about equality. Individualist anarchists do not aim for equality other than equal rights. Equal wealth is out of the question. Only anarcho-communists want equal wealth distribution. TheIndividualist

You seem to be ignoring my main points, though— one of which is that, throughout history, the dominate contributors to anarchism and the overwhelming majority of anarchists were anti-capitalist, even the individualist ones (though not necessarily anti-market or communistic). In fact, no capitalist strand of "anarchism" has ever existed, except since the 20th century in the form of questionably-named anarcho-capitalism. It does not make sense to dump anarcho-capitalism into a sea of vehemently anti-capitalist ideologies; the historical precedent doesn't allow it. -- WGee 04:24, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The historical precedent has already been made. Anarcho-capitalism has been around for quite a long time now...since the 1960's I think. The anti-capitalist individualist anarchists (meaning anti-profit) were around first then the communism anarchism showed up. The anti-individualist anarchists denied that it was a form of anarchism because the communists wanted to abolish private property, money, and markets. Then in the 1960's another new form of anarchism showed up...anarcho-capitalism and of course there's going to be anarchists denying it is "true anarchism." The anarcho-capitalists are also individualist anarchists but they don't think profit is exploitative. There's simply smarter individualist anarchists than the anti-capitalist individualist anarchists because of advances in economics. No serious economist today considers the labor theory of value as valid. Because one painting takes more labor to create than another, you're exploiting one of the painters unless you pay them equal price for their paintings. Come on. Just because you don't oppose profit it doesn't mean you're not an anarchist. TheIndividualist 04:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

A historical precedent from the 1960's can't really be compared to the historical precendent set by Proudhon in 1840. But lets not incite political debate and begin to denounce or exhalt ideologies; that's just counterproductive and detracts from the improvement of the article. Central to this whole thread is that the assertion that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism is disputed (evidenced by the foreign language Wikipedias), and that any sources asserting such a fact should be presented with this circumstance in mind. Another central principle, true of any article, is that hefty assertions require hefty sources; I don't believe your sources are "hefty" or reputable enough to merit inclusion in the lead. Let's use them elsewhere, where the controversy can be discussed in detail. Do you agree? -- WGee 05:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what the foreign language Wikipedias say if they're not sourced. As you know anyone can write anything they want in Wikipedia unless someone is making sure everything is sourced. And no I do not agree that my sources are not reputable enough to merit inclusion in the lead. Need a peer-reviewed journal? Here you go: "Anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism...contemporary anarcho-capitalists are descendants of nineteenth-century individualist anarchists such as Josiah Warren, Lysander Spooner, and Benjamin Tucker" -Brown, Susan Love, The Free Market as Salvation from Government: The Anarcho-Capitalist View, Meanings of the Market: The Free Market in Western Culture, edited by James G. Carrier, Berg/Oxford, 1997, p. 99. (Article is a criticism of anarcho-capitalism. Brown is not an anarcho-capitalist.) You cannot get any more reputable than a peer-reviewed journal. Not only that but the author is a critic of anarcho-capitalism. TheIndividualist 05:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Nonetheless, that is a hotly disputed assertion evidently, and therefore should only be mentioned in appropriate context, not as a mere one-clause weasel phrase. If we were to state anything in the lead, it should be something to the effect of: "Anti-capitalist anarchists, anarcho-capitalists, and political scientists frequently disagree as to whether or not anarcho-capitalism is a subset of the broader anarchist movement." The controversy has to be adequately documented. -- WGee 05:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

History, through the writings of virtually all self-declared and important anarchists to date, shows us that anarchism is an ideology dedicated to aboloshing all forms of hierarchy and coercion, including capitalism. It shows us that anti-capitalist anarchism is the only form of anarchism to have really existed, or at least the overwhelmingly dominate one. Any ideology that espouses capitalism is therefore incompatible with this historical precedent and should not be classified alongside the egalitarian ideologies of anarchism. -- WGee 03:35, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

It's patently false that anarchism is opposed to all forms of coercion. Defensive coercion is fine. Even initiatory coercion is fine for some such as anarcho-communists like Johann Most who advocated terrorism. There is nothing that makes something anarchism other than opposition to the state. TheIndividualist 03:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not true, either, though. --AaronS 03:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If it wasn't anarchism it wouldnt have the prefix "anarcho" attached. "There are several recognized varieties of anarchism, among them: individualistic anarchisms, anarcho-capitalisms, anarcho-communisms, mutualisms, anarcho-syndicalisms, libertarian socialisms, social anarchists and now eco-anarchisms." -Sylvan, Richard. Anarchism. A Companion to Contemporary Political Philosophy, editors Goodin, Robert E. and Pettit, Philip. Blackwell Publishing, 1995, p.231. TheIndividualist 03:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No offence intended, but that is a rather lame rebuttal to what I've written. The semantical meaning of the term is irrelevant as I have stated, nevermind that it was developed by 20th-century anarcho-capitalists who have their own obvious biases. A reductio ad absurdum easily nullifies your inference: if political classifications were based solely on semantics, I could develop a communistic ideology called "communo-capitalism" and correctly declare it a subset of capitalism, even though it is actually contrary to capitalism. Absurd, isn't it? Thus, the semantical meaning of the term, and essentially the term itself, is irrelevant; what matters is its political and historical similarity to anarchism, of which virtually none exists. -- WGee 03:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The "rebuttal" was a quote from a mainstream political philosophy source. You can argue until the cows come home but mainstream sources consider it a form of anarchism and Wikipedia is about sourced information, not your personal ideas. TheIndividualist 03:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

(Actually, your rebuttal didn't contain the quote when I first commented; you added it later.) -- WGee 04:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Chill about a bit, there, dude. I wouldn't say mainstream sources, but perhaps a mainstream source. --AaronS 03:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Anybody can right a book and assert a fact; what we need here are well-established, highly-esteemed, reputable sources. Hefty assertions require hefty sources, and a reference to a few unnotable authors is not sufficient. Interestingly enough, I could probably find various analyses of anarcho-capitalism which distance the ideology from anarchism. -- WGee 03:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The only writers you're going to find saying anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism is anti-capitalist writers. No surprise there. TheIndividualist 04:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

On the Internet, perhaps, but not necessarily in libraries. Unfortunately, though, I don't have access to such a comprehensive library as you do, and am therefore not able to conduct any meaningful bibilographical research right now. That does not mean that your sources deserve mention in the lead (which would be an instance of allocating undue weight to them), nor does it imply that opposing views don't exist. Your suggestions that your sources are mainstream are moot. -- WGee 04:06, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Another problem is that, because anarcho-capitalism is a relatively new and absolutely uninfluential ideology, there is not much disscussion of it amongst the more reputable, well-known sectors of academia. Accordingly, it is difficult to say that any source is "mainstream", as a mainstream opinion on anarcho-capitalism doesn't really exist. -- WGee 04:10, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

And collectivist forms of anarchism are influential? I look around and a see the world becoming more and more capitalist and away from communism...not the other way around. I am not saying anarcho-capitalism is influencing this but to say other forms of anarchism are influential is ridiculous. They are becoming increasingly obscure by the minute and no one cares. TheIndividualist 04:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Further, I find that most general sources on anarchism don't even mention anarcho-capitalism at all. --AaronS 04:13, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, well, unless you can find mainstream sources (non-rabid anti-capitalist) that say anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism your argument is just personal opinion and doesnt really matter for the article. There are plenty of mainstream references that say that it is. TheIndividualist 04:17, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

You might want to tone down your rhetoric a bit. Anyways, that doesn't make much sense. The positive claim is that anarcho-capitalism is considered to be a form of anarchism. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you. You feel that you have provided that proof, whereas others do not. If I wanted to show that anarcho-capitalism was not considered to be a form of anarchism, I could let silence speak louder than words. But, in this case, all anybody really needs to do is show the myriad of "mainstream" sources on political philosophy that include anarchism but do not mention anarcho-capitalism at all. --AaronS 04:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

How many sources do you require saying that anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism? TheIndividualist 04:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Although you're right that my argument in thus far personal opinion, it is intended to note that the insertion of a reference to anarchism in the lead is an ill-conceived and conentious idea. My argument is relevant to the use and placement of sources in this article, and so does matter some. It's not as though I'm not trying to insert any original research into the article.

Furthermore, I don't necessarily have to find a source which states that anarcho-capitalism is not anarchism. As Aaron point out, the fact that many writings on anarchism don't even allude to anarcho-capitalism is evidence enough that its classification as a school of anarchism is contestable. And as I've said before, your interpretation of what is "mainstream" is moot.

-- WGee 04:46, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Any text that about anarchism that doesn't mention anarcho-capitalism is simply not an exhaustive source on anarchism. There are LOTS of texts about anarchism that aside from not mentioning anarcho-capitalism don't even mention individualist anarchism but that doesn't mean individalist anarchism is not anarchism. It just means that it's not a through text on anarchism. TheIndividualist 04:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Any text that about anarchism that doesn't mention anarcho-capitalism is simply not an exhaustive source on anarchism. Yet there are several comprehensive sources that are exhaustive lists. And when those non-exhaustive lists exclude anarcho-capitalism, it may very well be because it has not been intellectually influential enough throughout history to deserve mention.

That brings me to my next point: when I spoke of influence, I meant intellectual influence throughout history (although several examples of anarchism in practice have been documented by academics). Anti-capitalist anarchism has dominated anarchist intellectual thought, insofar as to constitute the only credible, historical form of anarchism. Out of all of the important anarchist theorists, none of them claimed to be or are widely considered to be pro-capitalist. Its this historical precedent, as I've stated before, that makes the classifcation of anarcho-capitalism as "anarchist" hotly contested. -- WGee 05:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Aaron that you should tone town the rhetoric, some of which I consider incivil and all of which I consider unnecessary. I'm not trying to insert original research into the article, as you insinuate; I'm simply suggesting, through my argument, a more enlightened placement, use of, and labelling of references which consider anarcho-capitalism a form of anarchism. Of course your sources aren't irrelevant; my underlying point is that they are highly contenstable and should therefore be presented as highly contestable.

Remember that Wikipedia is not a battleground; Aaron and I are not acting as POV warriors, and niether are you, I assume. Likewise, remember to assume good faith; in other words, assume that our intentions are to improve the encyclopedia, not harm it. Once that mentality prevails, rather than the "us versus them" mentality, the editing process will flow much more smoothly.

-- WGee 05:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

What??? Where have I been uncivil? And when did I ever claim you trying to put original research in the article? All I did was point out that anything you put in has to be sourced, just in case you wanted to put your own opinion in. Which is the same thing you and Aaron have been saying to me, by the way. I provided a source and can provide more. TheIndividualist 05:04, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I said that you insinuated that I was trying to insert orignal research. Perhaps "uncivil" was too strong of a word; to be more precise, some of your comments, I feel, served to increase tension and promote an atmosphere of heated contention. -- WGee 05:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

And I think you and Aaron have been insinuating I'm putting original research in the article, when in fact I've been putting sourced information in. TheIndividualist 05:28, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you've been putting exaggerated, 'ill-placed, and weaselly-worded information into the article, but not original research. In fact, I acknowledged your use of sources, stating: "Of course your sources aren't irrelevant; my underlying point is that they are highly contenstable and should therefore be presented as highly contestable." -- WGee 05:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Weaselly-worded? It's not weasel words if it's sourced. And look at what I wrote. I didn't say it is a form of individualist anarchism. I said "some consider it a form of individualist anarchism" and attached like 8 sources. That is not "weasel words." TheIndividualist 05:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Medieval Iceland

Is this section necessary? Does it conform to WP:NPOV? Is it original research? Some people have expressed concern about it in the past. What do you all think? --AaronS 01:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

All I can say is huh? How is it orgingal research when half the section is an extended quote by a ancap writer, and the other half is a heavily sourced respose to it? I can see an NPOV argument about ancap/anarchist terminology, but this seems to be attacking the article simply for the sake of attacking the article. I'm not going to remove the tag, because I'm not really involved in editing this article at the moment, but your issues with the section come across as bizzare to me. (Oh and FWIW, the complaints about this had to do with the Somolia part of this, which no longer exists-- I think the consensus about that was the writing on anarco-capitalism in Somolia never rose above the level of blogging.) --Saswann 02:25, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Woah, there. Just throwing it out there. I wasn't attacking anything, just asking questions. You're right that it doesn't qualify as original research; I suppose that my point, there, was that it doesn't seem to be a significant discussion, so selling it as "anarcho-capitalism in the real world" might be a new synthesis. But, you're right, it's more of a WP:NPOV issue. --AaronS 03:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

On what grounds it's a NPOV issue? -- Vision Thing -- 18:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Undue weight. The section should exist, but should be qualified and reduced. --AaronS

Undue weight says "that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each." In that section equal weight is given to the claim that Medival Iceland had some features of an anarcho-capitalist society and to claim that it "was a communal rather than individualist society". Section can be reduced but I really don't see a point in that. -- Vision Thing -- 19:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You're giving undue weight to a minority viewpoint. I think that you misunderstand the policy. All you did was restate the gist of WP:NPOV. You didn't read the undue weight section. If David Friedman, and perhaps a couple other people, think that Medieval Iceland resembled an anarcho-capitalist society, then that's a minority viewpoint. --AaronS 14:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This is article about anarcho-capitalism, so presenting anarcho-capitalist view on certain things is not giving undue weight to that view. That (presenting a-c theories) is the exact purpose of this article. If we were to add a-c view to the article about history of Iceland, that would be giving undue weight; here it's not. -- Vision Thing -- 20:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

That's probably true. Good points. --AaronS 20:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Glad that we can agree on something. -- Vision Thing -- 21:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the example of the Old West can be added in that section. There is an article about that attached to this article. TheIndividualist 04:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ironic that the article comes from The Journal of Libertarian Studies. I'm not really sure that one academic essay is enough, though. --AaronS 04:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The Journal of Libertarian Studies is a peer-reviewed journal. It is enough. TheIndividualist 04:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

What is so "ironic" by the way? TheIndividualist 04:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

This was also published in a peer-reviewed journal. But I understand your point. If you want to include it, it would have to be qualified, of course. I said that it was ironic because you have been arguing that anarcho-capitalism belongs in the anarchist tradition instead of the libertarian one, and here you present us with an essay about anarcho-capitalism from an academic journal focusing on libertarian studies. ;-) --AaronS 04:45, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The Journal of Libertarian Studies was created with the undertanding that libertarianism referred to individualist anarchism in the US. Individualist anarchism in the 19th century and early 20th century used to be called libertarianism. Old books about Benjamin Tucker and Lysander Spooner refer to them as "libertarians" and anarchists interchangeably. Libertarianism and anarchism are synonyms in old anarchist literature. Murray Rothbard and others just continued the term for the pro-capitalist individualism. TheIndividualist 04:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

That's probably because earlier books were influenced by Proudhon and European anarchism, which was much more significant at the time. In French, the dominant political and philosophical language of the time, and the language of Proudhon, "libertaire" means anarchist, whereas "liberal" means libertarian. Confusing, yes. --AaronS 04:59, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. Karl Hess founded with Murray Rothbard Left and Right: A Journal of Libertarian Thought in 1965. I think that may have been before the term "anarcho-capitalism" was invented. They just considered themselves anarchists. TheIndividualist 05:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Topheavy

The introductory section of the article is rather dense with information, perhaps needlessly so. If one can't see the ToC without scrolling at 1024x768, I think things may have gone somewhat awry. I'd favor coming up with a more concise introductory paragraph, with any other information moved to the appropriate section of the article as needed. It fits Wikipedia:Lead section better that way.--Rosicrucian 21:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No thoughts on this? Surely we can be more concise than what's up there right now.--Rosicrucian 22:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Your relevant and uncontroversial point might have been lost in the bickering. ;-) --AaronS 23:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Upon further inspection, it does look like VisionThing tidied it up a good deal, and I just missed it. Kudos, VisionThing, that's definitely looking like a step in the right direction. I'll give it another look in 1024x768 once I get back from work, as I don't have local admin rights to adjust my workstation's resolution.--Rosicrucian 23:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Improper Citations

Many of the sources now being inserted into the article by TheIndividualist were originally inserted by editors RJII and Hogeye, who have now been banned and have a history of inserting sources that do not back the claim or are not properly referanced (i.e. no page number/chapter for entire books, referancing the editor of a compilation of essays without mention of specific essay/author, etc). Given that these referances were first inserted by dubious sources, and given the high likelihood that theindividualist is a sockpuppet of one of the aforementioned now banned users, I'm calling for a citecheck for this article and several others which have been stuffed with the same sources for the same claims. In particular, I would like to know if the texts actually support the specific claims being made, and will begin to visit my local university library in the coming weeks to check them. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 12:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

That's probably a good idea. It is true that most of RJII and Hogeye's citations were selectively quoted. Sometimes they would be contradicted on the very same page. --AaronS 13:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I would add that it does seem peculiar that TheIndividualist appeared out of nowhere and is making the same arguments and using the same sources in the same fashion and with the same tone as RJII, who, last we heard, victoriously vanished in a cloud of smoke with a maniacal, villainous cackle, after being banned. --AaronS 13:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

That's not true. Hogye is banned because of personal attack and RJII for the way he left Wikipedia. Can you show some examples of sources that do not back the claim? -- Vision Thing -- 16:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I removed several today from the individualist anarchism article one at a time and indicated when the source did not support the claim, the examples can be found in the history of the article. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 16:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

What does it matter WHO inserted the sources? The article is well cited. TheIndividualist 16:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

It matters because there is a necessity of trust involved in sources that cannot be easily checked. If the individuals have a pattern of behavior that suggests they include improper sources, and a pattern of behavior of abusing wikipedia, then it becomes difficult to check their sources. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 16:51, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I haven't seen any pattern of such a thing. Have you? Can you provide evidence? It seems you go around claiming that RHII and Hogeye were putting in improper sources but it is just empty claims. TheIndividualist 16:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Look through the edit history of the pages involved and you will find dozens of instances of myself pointing out when and where and how the referances were misused or improperly cited. If someone who isn't clearly a sockpuppet of RJII/Hogeye asks for individual examples I would be happy to provide them. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 16:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I ask for individual examples of misused or improperly cited sources in this article. -- Vision Thing -- 17:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I suspect he won't provide examples with the claim that you are a sockpuppet of RJII/Hogeye. That seems to be a common tactic. If all else fails, accuse them of being a sockpuppet. IndividualistAnarchist 17:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This comment is really funny, now, considering that you were a sockpuppet. Bye, bye. --AaronS 12:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

You should probably note that you're a sockpuppet of User:TheIndividualist on your user page, IndividualistAnarchist. I'm not sure why you removed that note. Also, the fact that you're using two usernames to edit the same article might be in violation of Wikipedia policy. It certainly is needlessly confusing. --AaronS 17:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not violating any policy. I'm no longer going to use that username. That's why I removed the note. I removed teh note by this usename so anyone could see the new username. IndividualistAnarchist 17:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

These are a few that I've already removed from the anarcho-capitalism article, they are also being used in this article, as well as individualist anarchism and anarchism. [1], [2], [3], [4]

As for evidence of VT being a sockpuppet/meatpuppet of RJ/Hogeye, I already presented it. [5] The commonality of the "tactic" of suggesting that individuals editing these articles in similar ways to Hogeye and RJ may be sockpuppets is seconded only by the number of sockpuppets they seem ready to supply [6], many of which have already been banned. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 17:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

LOL, so I'm a sock-puppet of RJII or Hogeye? And maybe RJII was Hogeye's sock-puppet, or Hogeye RJII's?

I only see that you removed sources, not that you showed that they were misused. -- Vision Thing -- 18:13, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

You asked for sources that were improperly cited, the reasons for being improperly cited are in the edit summaries. I've never claimed that Hogeye and RJ were the same person, but you are a sock-puppet of RJII. This claim isn't anything new to you, I brought this up on your talk page long before I brought it to the admins, you just ignored it. Now you are trying to press the claim to discredit it, but the evidence kinda speaks for itself. You would have to be one hell of an obsessed meat puppet to go through these pages and find so many of RJs edits and resurrect them word for word, its much more likely that you simply are RJII. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 19:24, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I've seen you deleting sources just because RJII/Hogeye put them there. You're not checking the sources. You're just outright deleting sources with the claim that RJII/Hogeye insert bad sources. Then you come out and claim that RJII/Hogeye have a history of putting in bad sources when you're the one starting the rumour. TheIndividualist 17:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

To my knowledge in all cases I have removed sources because they were insufficiently documented or misattributed or ambiguous IN ADDITION to being inserted by RJII or Hogeye. If you can point out any instances where I did not provide reasons to remove the citations apart in addition to their dubious editors please do and I will happily change them back myself. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 17:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

From the Dictionary of Marxist Thought (1992): "Although anarchism rests on liberal intellectual foundations, notably the distinction between state and society, the protean character of the doctrine makes it difficult to disinguish clearly different schools of anarchist thought. But one important distinction is between individualist anarchism and social anarchism. The former emphasizes individual liberty, the sovereignty of the individual, the importance of private property or possession, and the iniquity of all monopolies. It may be seen as liberalism taken to an extreme conclusion. 'Anarcho-capitalism' is the a contemporary variant of this school." Intangible 17:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a page number? IndividualistAnarchist 17:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Page 21, under the section "Anarchism". Intangible 17:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

From "The Blackwell Dictionary of Modern Social Thought" (2002), edited by William Outhwaite: "At the other end of the political spectrum, individualist anarchism, reborn as anarcho-capitalism, is a significant tendency in the libertarian New Right." Page 14 -- Vision Thing -- 18:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The sockpuppet straw-man

I am extremely tired of hearing people revert edits and discrediting editors on the basis that their arguments resemble the arguments and edits of banned users. This is straw-man logic, and also a form of ad hominem, appeal to motive and composition. If you cannot refute the arguments and/or sources on their own grounds, then you haven't a leg to stand on. I have tried to be extremely cooperative in the hopes of forming a consensus by taking into account the opposing views, and have even aided in editing of the article which inserts a questioning tone into the article for the sake of trying to appease those who claim the article is POV, but it doesn't seem like it's ever enough.

I hereby leave this article to the dogs, and hope that one day the conflict will be resolved (hopefully not to the absolute detriment of this article) and would like to return sometime to help patch up and rebuild. Until then, farewell. Two-Bit Sprite 17:52, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, keep in mind that all of your edits -- which are much appreciated -- have been countered by a few users who refuse to budge an inch in the other direction. While I assume that they are acting on good faith, and respect their opinions, TheIndividualist/IndividualistAnarchist and company haven't really tried to reach a compromise at all, whereas a lot of other editors have. The sockpuppet charge, while tiresome, is unfortunately understandable, considering the proven and self-admitted harrassment, disruption, and POV-pishing that has occurred on anarchism-related articles on the part of RJII and Hogeye. Further, it has always been added as an afterthought, and has never really been the meat of anybody's claims. There are other, more important issues at hand. I understand that you feel strongly about the subject of this article, and I respect that. I certainly hope that you won't leave as a result of the recent heated discussion. Your input is appreciated, and you're welcome here.

You're right that the sockpuppet argument is very, very difficult to substantiate. But, like I said, I'm sure that, after thinking a bit about the situation, you might understand where some people are coming from. For years, we've dealt with sockpuppet abuse on these articles. The people behind the abuse have no lives outside of Wikipedia and troll it like an AOL chatroom. Sockpuppets are probably Wikipedia's greatest weakness -- along with gaming the system. Both will probably contribute to Wikipedia's demise, if nothing is done about it.

Anyways, I hope that you decide to stick around and not let any of the heated debate get to you. It doesn't need to be this heated -- I agree with you on that -- so maybe we can work to calm it down a bit. --AaronS 18:20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure there are sock puppets on both sides. Obviously Wikipedia was designed to allow sockpuppets. People may need to get things done that they couldn't if they had to be traceable to the same username all the time. Wikipedia is very anonymity friendly. I don't see anything wrong with having sockpuppets at all. IndividualistAnarchist 18:23, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I know Blah from outside of Wikipedia, so he's not a sockpuppet. Francis is an admin, and he's from the UK. I'm me. That's leaves TUF, who is not a sockpuppet, by process of elimination. But I think it's silly to break it down into "sides," anyways. The issue was that sockpuppets have made the same edits that you have made. Not damning evidence, but it is grounds for reasonable suspicion. Everybody should probably just calmn down. --AaronS 18:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Being that I am a sockpuppet, I agree that they can be legitimate. However, using a sockpuppet to avoid a ban on your IP is a violation of wikipedia policy, and using sockpuppets to over-represent your position or avoid the 3RR destroys the purpose of the project. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 18:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The RJII account was blocked for being a multi-user account. More than one person was using it. No specific user of the account was banned from using Wikipedia. So it make no sense to call anyone a sockpuppet of RJII. Who is RJII? Anyone who edited under that account is free to come on and edit Wikipedia. I'm one of those people. IndividualistAnarchist 19:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks RJ. BTW - You never finished your manifesto. Could you get back to it before you get blocked again? Thanks. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 19:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I was talking about abusive sockpuppets. --AaronS 18:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't make reverts based solely on the belief that they were made by sockpuppets, unless those sockpuppets have already been banned themselves for being sockpuppets, in which case wikipedia policy calls for it. Its not like sockpuppet use by previously banned users is rare around here, as Lingeron and Drowner have very recently demonstrated. If they had the decency to abide by wiki standards when they enter the community, learn from their mistakes when they are temporarily banned and come back ready to start over (or don't come back at all), then things would be different. Blahblahblahblahblahblah 18:33, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Another even more recent example of a banned sockpuppet editing these pages Individualistanarchist.

citecheck

Some user has put a tag to this article again. What specific cites are being questioned? Intangible 12:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

As has been said -- although I have a fuzzy memory, but it's safe to assume -- the ones placed by the aforementioned banned users, who have been known to misattribute citations. --AaronS 12:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, those couple of references that I could and did check were ok. Such as The Blackwell Dictionary of Modern Social Thought and the Dictionary of Marxist Thought. There are other references on Template_talk:Anarchism as well, which are not referenced here, but could. Alas, I cannot attest to the older books, but I guess one just has to assume good faith on those ones. I have no reason to believe that those are incorrectly cited, since two have already been proven correct. Intangible 12:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no reason to assume good faith with any of those users. They have shown, over and over again, that they are undeserving of such an assumption. --AaronS

I've cleant up the section that this was pertaining to (at least I guess it was this section). Please refer to any other specific reference that you think is unfounded. Otherwise I will have to remove the citecheck tag from the article. Intangible 13:31, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm too busy to deal with the citecheck, but I do believe Blah said he was working on it. Perhaps we should wait until he satisfies his own curiosity with regard to the matter, before we remove the tag. --AaronS 13:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

No, we should first have some evidence that there are references which don't support some claims. -- Vision Thing -- 20:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

To best of my knowledge, RJII and Hogeye are not known to misattribute citations. Do you have any exaples of that? -- Vision Thing -- 20:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

medieval iceland

What's the NPOV tag about? The sources seem to be ok. Intangible 13:58, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Undue weight, as explained above. --AaronS 14:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Archived

Things were getting lost scrolling through all that text, so I've trimmed us down to only the most current discussions.--Rosicrucian 15:52, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Lead sentence

People keep on changing it with ostensive disregard for the sources discussed on this talk page, and with ostensive disregard for this talk page in general. The current sentence reads as follows: Anarcho-capitalism is an individualist political philosophy that calls for the abolition of the state, replacing tax funded defense of liberty and property with with voluntarily funded private suppliers of a judiciary, policing and defense. This definition is confusing, grammatically awkward, and actually incorrect. It suggests that anarcho-capitalists only advocate the privitization of jurisdiction, policing and defense; in actuality, however, they advocate the privitization of all functions currently carried out by the state.

Here's one verifiable definition: "Anarcho-capitalism is a form of anarchism whose prime tenet is that the free market, unhampered by government intervention, can coordinate all the functions of society currently carried out by the state, including systems of justice and national defense."[7]

Based on this source, I will reinsert my original definition, with some changes: "Anarcho-capitalism is an individualist political philosophy that calls for the abolition of the state and the provision of all of its functions—including jurisdiction, policing, and national defence—by the free market. In the future, I ask that people verify their additions with sources.

-- WGee 21:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The changes, while perhaps less than perfect, did address a few problems with the sentence as you reverted it:

• Not all functions of the state will continue under AC - some are inherently coercive, and will be abolished
• Policing and military defence are not really the same function, and the description doesn't make clear that "national defence" covers defence against internal predators
• "Systems of justice" doesn't make clear that both civil courts and criminal justice are included.

Argyriou 21:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I will address your assertions point-by-point:

• That anarcho-capitalists reject "initiatory coercion" is well documented in the lead, so this first sentence will not be misleading. The current wording, I feel, is the clearest and most accurate way to define ancap in one sentence. Plus, it's sourced, unlike some of the alternatives.
• These are just a few general examples intended to emphasize the fact that ancaps promote laissez-faire capitalism in all areas of society. Thus, we don't need to be utterly precise in these examples. Remember: this is just the lead; more detail is provided later in the article.
• I disagree: both civil courts and criminal courts are part of the justice system, aren't they? This example is intended to be inclusive, not exhaustive.

-- WGee 21:53, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Your sentence is bad, just as the source's sentence is bad. "All" of the functions of states would not be replaced. Taxation is a function of the state. Censorship is a function of the state. Prohibition of drugs is a function of the state. Banning private ownership of the means of production is a function of the state. What the state's functions are depends on what state you are talking about. The only functions that would be left to the free market would be provision of non-aggressive functions that states have been known to perform, such as protecting individuals from violence perpetrated by other indivduals.— Preceding unsigned comment added by O-boy (talk • contribs) (O-Boy) (UTC)

I agree, but your propagation of that was ineffective, confusing, and mired by anarcho-capitalist jargon and technicalities. The basic idea of ancap was well-conveyed in my original sentence, no matter how imprecise you believe it was. In any case, I altered the lead sentence to reflect your concerns and the concerns of Argyriou. The result is a slight increase in vagueness; nonetheless, the definition is still factually accurate and as precise as we can muster in one sentence. -- WGee 22:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Since I was the one who started chaning the intro some short time ago, I will say this:

• The essential services are recognized as such by anarcho-capitalists. They want these to be provide for by the free market. Anarcho-capitalists do not see them to be essential functions of the state.
• civil defense vs. national defense. The latter is confusing, since the concept of nation is highly similar to state.
• jurisdiction vs. judiciary. The latter is necessarily provided for by a government

Intangible 22:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

My suggestion for the lead paragraph:

Anarcho-capitalism is an individualist political philosophy that calls for the abolition of the state and the provision of legitimate services usually provided by the state - a judicial system, protection from criminals, and protection from foreign aggression - by the free market. Central to the philosophy is the idea of individual sovereignty and the rejection of initiatory coercion and fraud, including the tax function and monopoly of force of the state. Its proponents see the only just basis for law as arising from the right to non-coercively acquired private property and an unlimited right of contract between individuals. For anarcho-capitalists, property may only be acquired by mixing one's labor with unowned resources (either previously unoccupied or abandoned) or by receiving goods by trade or gift. Anarcho-capitalists reject the state as a systematic aggressor that should be eliminated. Anarcho-capitalists assert that each individual "has the right to own the product that he has made."[1] and that profit is a natural occuring and non-coercive part of trade. This embrace of capitalism leads to considerable tension between anarcho-capitalists and those anarchists who see the rejection of capitalism as being essential to anarchist philosophy, tantamount with rejection of the state.

Here are my reasons for the changes:

• There needs to be a distinction between legitimate functions and non-legitimate functions provided by the state. ACers believe that a judicial system, police protection (only against what ACers consider crimes), and national defense, so long as there are still states, are legitimate services, but that a monopolistic government cannot legitimately provide those.
• Some functions of the state which are considered legitimate by nearly all non-anarchists are not considered so by ACers - taxation and maintaining a monopoly of force.
• The sentence which began Anarcho-capitalists reject the state ... was overblown and redundant, so I trimmed it.

Argyriou 22:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the concept that needs to be put across. Individualist anarchist Benjamin Tucker (predecessor of anarcho-capitalism) explains it like this: "defense is a service like any other service; that it is labor both useful and desired, and therefore an economic commodity subject to the law of supply and demand; that in a free market this commodity would be furnished at the cost of production; that, competition prevailing, patronage would go to those who furnished the best article at the lowest price; that the production and sale of this commodity are now monopolized by the State; and that the State, like almost all monopolists, charges exorbitant prices;... and, finally, that the State exceeds all its fellow-monopolists in the extent of its villainy because it enjoys the unique privilege of compellhlg all people to buy its product whether they want it or not" (O-Boy)

Lead paragraph

Here is the lead paragraph as it stands now:

Anarcho-capitalism is an individualist political philosophy that calls for the abolition of the state, and the provision of all goods and services—including essential services such as jurisdiction, policing and defence—by the free market. Central to the philosophy is the idea of individual sovereignty and the rejection of initiatory coercion and fraud, including state-imposed restrictions on commerce. Its proponents see the only just basis for law as arising from the right to non-coercively acquired private property and an unlimited right of contract between individuals. For anarcho-capitalists, property may only be acquired by mixing one's labor with unowned resources (either previously unoccupied or abandoned) or by receiving goods by trade or gift. Anarcho-capitalists reject "the state" as an unjustified, monopolist thief and systematic aggressor that should be eliminated. Anarcho-capitalists assert that each individual "has the right to own the product that he has made."[1] and that profit is a natural occuring and non-coercive part of trade. This embrace of capitalism leads to considerable tension between anarcho-capitalists and those anarchists who see the rejection of capitalism as being essential to anarchist philosophy, tantamount with rejection of the state.

I tried to incorporate the concerns of Argyriou and others into the paragraph without making use of anarcho-capitalist terminology, which can be confusing and off-putting to the uninitiated. For example, what exactly is the "monopoly of force of the state"? What are "legitimate services" in the eyes of anarcho-capitalists? What does "the rejection of initiatory coercion and fraud" entail in the eyes of anarcho-capitalists (I've tried to explain in laymen terms that it entails an opposition to all restrictions on commerce imposed by the state, which seems correct from what I've read in the rest of the article). These vague terms and phrases should not be utilized in the lead, although they may be acceptable in the main body, where they can be explained in detail.

Some constructive input on my edits, and on the lead in general, would be appreciated, as I hope to reach a consensus on the lead sometime soon. But please keep in mind my primary concern while offering a critique: that we should avoid vague terminology in the lead and simply "tell it like it is".

-- WGee 04:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

My revert

The current version is fine the way it is for the most part, and there are a lot of POV problems with the old version which have already been rectified in recent versions. Editing of the intro by several editors is not signs of controversiality, but most are minor fixes and clarifications. If resurection of the old intro can be justified here on the talk page, please do so; until then we will continue to work on the existing version. Two-Bit Sprite 14:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

However, I must say, seeing the size contrast between the old version and new version, I do have to admit that the new version has grown substancially, and has a lot of specific information which is later repeated in other sections. I.e. For anarcho-capitalists, property... might be a bit too much detail for and intro? And the last paragraph I think is well covered already in the History and Influences section... Two-Bit Sprite 14:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Problems with the old version which has been resurected:

• Usage of language like "private property norms" which implies that a) anarcho-capitalists aim for the status quo in terms of property, which is definately not the case, they instead wish to establish much simpler conceptions of property. The "norms" of property involve states and include such things as imminent domain, search and seasure (occasionally without warrent), etc.
• "unlimited right of contract" — this is disputed even among anarcho-capitalists. Some ancaps argue that, i.e., one cannot contract oneself into slavery.
• "aggressor against sovereign individuals" — uses ancap lingo in the voice of wikipedia, implies that wikipedia assumes that individuals are indeed soverign without question.
• "laissez-faire" — does not preclude all forms of state intervention, i.e. from the laissez-faire article, "It is generally understood to be a doctrine opposing economic interventionism and taxation by the state beyond that which is perceived to be necessary to maintain peace, security, and property rights." (emp. mine).
• Talk of a "government monopoly" in the voice of wikipedia — some would argue that the government does not hold strict monopoly as courts, defense and property enforcement are still offered suplementarily on the free market. Again, ancap lingo.
• "involuntarily funded through taxation" and "private, competing businesses that provide voluntarily-funded services" — Again, libertarian/ancap jargon, greatly begging the question.

I do agree that the recent versions are getting a bit long (see my comments above) but replacing the current version with an older more slanted version is not the solution. Please try to work with the other editors who have spent time and energy attempting to correct instead of going back to those things which we have intentionally removed. Two-Bit Sprite 17:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

"Unlimited right of contract" before that it is stated that each individual is sovereign, which implies no one can own someone else.

"laissez-faire" is indeed correct. Since anarcho-capitalist reject the state, your definition is wrong.

A government is indeed a law monopolist.

I see nothing wrong with the intro, except that it might need some wikifying.

Intangible 18:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

"an older more slanted version is not the solution". This is an unfair rule. The older version was a feutuered article. You should be careful before you edit this version as you want. For example, it is no political philosophy. Abolotion of the complete state is no political goal per se. --Uiofvnondc 18:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

How is not wanting 'older more slanted' versions of an article an "unfair" rule? As for featured status, this does not mean the article could stand improvement. Featured status is not immortality, if it was, the page would become locked to edits as soon as it got the status. Two-Bit Sprite 18:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

There were more deliberate editors at the older version. Should we always start to discuss a new version to correct the old version? --Uiofvnondc 19:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The article states that anarcho-capitalists believe that individuals are sarcasm. I realize that one could argue that this implies the prohibition of signing oneself into slavery, this is not for wikipedia to judge. This is original research, drawing conclusions in the article which are not backed by sources other than by direvation. Wikipedia does not form conclusions like this, but merely documents the theories and conclusions of others. The language in the old version makes it sound like wikipedia believes that individuals are soverign and that "obviously" this means that one can/cannot sign oneself into slavery.

No this is simple logic. Individual sovereignty implies that no one can own someone else. Your notion "of signing oneself into slavery" is irrelevant to the anarcho-capitalism article. Intangible 19:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Now we're into a discussion of the logical coherancy, which is not appropriate on wikipedia, no matter how 'simple' the logic is. The point remains the using the voice of wikipedia to make that connection makes it sound as though wikipedia endorses the premiss. Two-Bit Sprite 19:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

That fact that anarcho-capitalists reject the states does not imply that laissez-faire automatically means non-state. If you have source which say otherwise, perhaps you should edit laissez-faire.

There is a difference between a positive and negative definition of laissez-faire. Intangible 19:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Care to explain? Are you trying to make the argument that "true" laissez-faire is "naturally" anarchistic? Two-Bit Sprite 19:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

As for government being a law monopolist, while it is true that most (perhaps all) ancaps believe this, the old version of the article makes it sound like a matter-of-fact. Two-Bit Sprite 18:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Law is meant here in a greater sence, namely that the state can dictate a certain social order. Intangible 19:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

This isn't made clear, and is still using the voice of wikipedia to present this. Two-Bit Sprite 19:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

There has been significant progress on the article since it gained its featured status. Let's not get into the old argument of "well it was featured once, so we should revert it to its featured status." It wasn't cute when Shannon did it, and theres' really no justification for it.--Rosicrucian 19:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. Two-Bit Sprite 19:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have had some concerns about how topheavy the intro is getting though, as stated above. VisionThing did some good work on it to trim it, so it's certainly gotten better since I originally brought that up.--Rosicrucian 19:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Then tell me why it should be a political philosphy? This is wrong or at least overweight in the first sentence. --Uiofvnondc 19:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)--Uiofvnondc 19:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia article political philosophy:

Political philosophy is the study of fundamental questions about the state, government, politics, liberty, justice, property, rights, law and the enforcement of a legal code by authority: what they are, why they are needed, what makes a government legitimate, what rights and freedoms it should protect and why, what form it should take and why, what the law is, and what duties citizens owe to a legitimate government, if any, and when it may be legitimately overthrown—if ever. In a vernacular sense, the term "political philosophy" often refers to a general view, or specific ethic, belief or attitude, about politics that does not necessarily belong to the technical discipline of philosophy.

Three central concerns of political philosophy have been the political economy by which property rights are defined and access to capital is regulated, the demands of justice in distribution and punishment, and the rules of truth and evidence that determine judgements in the law.

Seems accurate to me.--Rosicrucian 19:31, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Anarcho-capitalism being a form of anarchism kinda undercuts the argument for it to be a political philosophy. Intangible 19:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Heck, even if you're one of the folks that say it's a form of libertarianism, it's still squarely a political philosophy.--Rosicrucian 19:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. It is a philosophy about concerning politics, thus a political philosophy. The fact that anarcho-capitalists sit around and think about/discuss political institutions like government makes it fairly identifiably political. Two-Bit Sprite 19:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Then look to politics. "Politics is a process by which decisions are made within groups." "It is the art or science of government." This is no issue of anarcho-capitalism. --Uiofvnondc 20:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering that Anarchism is described in its article as a political philosophy, you are perhaps putting the cart before the horse here.--Rosicrucian 20:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Classical Anarchism is something treated in political philosophy because it has positive approaches to a kind of politics. But not anarcho-capitalism. --Uiofvnondc 20:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Calling something a political philosophy is not a value judgement as to whether it is statist or anti-statist.--Rosicrucian 20:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine. And why should one call it "political"? --Uiofvnondc 20:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Why shouldn't one call it "political"? Under what non-POV definition does "political" not apply to an article that is part of the "Politics Series" under both the Anarchism and Libertarianism templates?--Rosicrucian 20:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Political philosophy makes only positive approaches about politics and "fundamental questions about the state, government, ... blah blah". You can prove this easy. Anarcho-capitalism isn't listed in almost no reference book and is not content of the curriculum in any political philosphy course. --Uiofvnondc 19:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It was formulated by political philosophers. It is primarily debated by political philosophers. It seeks to answer fundamental questions about the state, government, politics, liberty, justice, property, and the enforcement of a legal code by authority. How is it not a political philosophy?--Rosicrucian 20:00, 3 August 2006 (UTC) "enforcement of a legal code by authority." Sure not! --Uiofvnondc 20:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact the it isn't mentioned in most text books simply prooves that it is a fringe movement, not that it isn't political, your logic is flawed. Two-Bit Sprite 20:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

How can you prove that it must be a political philosophy? And, how can you claim that it would be important, when it is not treated as political theory by political philosophers? Not even ancap scholars are decribed as "political philosphers". --Uiofvnondc 20:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Murray Rothbard is a "political philosopher" and he formulated the philosophy.--Rosicrucian 20:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Where is he called "political philosopher"? --Uiofvnondc 20:27, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

See here Two-Bit Sprite 20:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)