Talk:Pseudoscience

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"Archive Freedom"

[Note: this post copied from my User page ]

Are we supposed to take this seriously as a source:--> http://archivefreedom.org/

Claims there is some kind of "blacklist" in physics preventing certain physicists from publishing work. This clearly shows a grave misunderstanding of the scientific method. Anyone is free to publish -- as long as it is science. Overturning a paradigm will earn you fame, and if true, a theory will stand up to critical peer review.

All the website shows is that certain pseudoscientists have a bizarre conspiracy theory of science, and instead of doing science, pseudoscientists scream like children about how they are being "censored"? — Dunc|☺ 19:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The Website illustrates the "Identifying pseudoscience" item, "assertion of claims of a conspiracy on the part of the scientific community to suppress their results". It is meant as an example, rather than a source, and I think the words describing it as such. Your description of the Web site seems confirm this? --Iantresman 20:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

At least one of the people mentioned Dr. Peter Rowlands is a university lecture at an in a physice department which has been given the top rating for research in the UK (5A). The transcript [1] indicates this is not just obvious cranks being excluded.

As to Anyone is free to publish, have you ever tried to get a paper published? Yes anyone is free to publish if your work fits with the agenda of the journal you target. Rejections are rife, there are many incidences of important work which has taken years and years to get published. For instance Galois's ground breaking work in group theory was rejected, basically because no one else understood it (and maybe because he had wound up the wrong people).

There is an important distinction between peer review and arXiv to which the website refers. arXiv is not a peer review journal, it is a repository of pre-prints appearing prior to aceptance in a journal. --Salix alba (talk) 21:55, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

The Pseudoscience articles just mentions "conspiracy on the part of the scientific community to suppress their results"[2]. arXiv is representative of the scientific community, and the Archive Freedom web site claims that arXiv is suppressing pre-prints. That seems to me to be illustrative of the article description? --Iantresman 18:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Galois' work was not really "rejected". In fact, several prominent mathematicians understood its significance and encouraged him, at various times, to submit it for publication. Parts of it would be published before his death, but the famous memoir (to which I believe you are referring), was not published during his lifetime...but that was due to various factors such as his reluctance to clarify his work and unforeseen events such as Fourier's death. The romantic view that Galois was a misunderstood genius is to a large extent a fiction set up by the writings of E.T. Bell. See Evariste Galois for more info. There are some good external links there on this stuff also. --Chan-Ho (Talk) 12:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Such "censorship" is real, and is no conspiracy. I notice a mistake which is so common that it almost deserves its own name: the conflating of intellectual suppression with "conspiracy theory." When crackpots complain of suppression, thoughtless people will often accuse them of being conspiracy nuts even though the crackpots said nothing about conspiracy. The accusation is wrong. In fact, intellectual suppression is a common event, and has nothing to do with conspiracies. For example, the resistance to bad ideas is a key part of scientific conservatism. Crackpots really are being suppressed; researchers really do refuse to listen to them, and their papers really are being rejected by all physics journals. Their complaints of censorship or suppression are completely genuine. It is the purpose of journal editors to accept the best papers and "censor" all others. Anyone who insinuates that intellectual suppression is illusory or is a "conspiracy theory" is at best mistaken, or at worst is using an emotion-based strategy in a science debate. Besides the censorship of bad ideas, the resistance to valid new ideas is well known in science (and in the rest of human endevour,) and it also has nothing to do with a conspiracy. Often a genuine new idea poses a threat, and researchers will individually resist it for emotional reasons (as with doctors rejecting Semmilweis, etc.) Scientist are human, and they sometimes resist ideas leading to scientific revolutions which threaten their work, their jobs, or which simply make them look bad in the eyes of the public. No conspiracy is involved, and the suppression is genuine. So, when making accusations, we must take care to insure that our criticism isn't itself a fallacy or a rhetorical ploy: we must only use the "conspiracy theory" label against crackpots who actually claim to be victims of conspiracy, and not just those who complain of suppression. Wjbeaty 10:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Wjbeaty (talk · contribs) was trying to say that the traditional scientific journals do in a loose sense "censor" papers which fail to pass peer review, and a good thing too. Most of us would agree with the last!

But Beaty also writes "When crackpots complain of suppression, thoughtless people will often accuse them of being conspiracy nuts even though the crackpots said nothing about conspiracy. The accusation is wrong." Please note that the Archive Freedom organizaton specifically charged that Paul Ginsparg was keeping their eprints out of the arXiv using a "secret blacklist". My understanding is that this is wrong: there has never been a blacklist.

Here is an example of a closly related conspiracy theory which I know is untrue. Some years ago, I posted in sci.math.research a call to institute some kind of screening of archive submissions. This post drew a rather critical response from Paul Ginsparg, via John Baez. Some years later, however, in response to a growing percentage of cranky submissions, the endorsement system, which should not be confused with conventional refereeing, was reluctantly instituted by arxiv.org. This coincidence may have led Jack Sarfatti (a fringe physicist notorious for his cranky submissions to various journals) to claim that Baez, Ginsparg, and myself were conspiring to keep his eprints out of the archive :-/

Another closely related claim: some cranks complained that they could not even access the archive. Apparently they jumped to the conclusion that software at the arxiv website was somehow preventing them from even connecting. An alternative explanation is that the original domain name was xxx.lanl.gov (chosen as a joke), and some countries apparently really do prevent their citizens from accessing url's containing the string xxx.

Beaty also writes: "Crackpots really are being suppressed; researchers really do refuse to listen to them, and their papers really are being rejected by all physics journals." That last bit is demonstrably untrue, unfortunately, even if you exclude crank journals like Galilean Electrodynamics (which publishes papers denying special relativity and Journal of Scientific Exploration (which publishes papers on paranormal topics). Journals such as Foundations of Physics often publish some very dodgy papers. Even supposedly rigorously refereed journals such as Classical and Quantum Gravity on rare occasions publish papers which are generally deemed cranky (see Bogdanov affair).

By the way, about Galois: Ian Tresman mentioned in garbled form a legend to the effect that the great mathematician Augustin Louis Cauchy supressed the great paper of Galois (c. 1831), which was found among Cauchy's personal papers after his own death. One version of the legend, due to my former colleague :-/ Eric Temple Bell, hints darkly at an alleged political motivation. The truth seems to be closer to this: Cauchy didn't understand the paper (which really is rather cryptic) and procrastinated so long that he forgot about it. Fortunately, Joseph Liouville obtained and understood the manuscript, and published it with a laudatory introduction in 1846 (before Cauchy's death in 1857). A fourth great mathematician, Carl Gustav Jacobi, then became an ardent champion of Galois's revolutionary ideas. The modern form taught to many undergraduate math majors is largely due to a fifth great mathematician, Emil Artin. Quite a few other leading algebraists have made important contributions to this theory.---CH 02:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

• So in the section Identifying pseudoscience", an item describes the "assertion of claims of a conspiracy on the part of the scientific community to suppress their results".
• The Archive Freedom Web site seems to illustrate this precise claim. So is there any reason not to provide it as an example? --Iantresman 11:12, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for a new article

I think we may wish to have an article on mainstream science. This would serve as a good counterbalance and would be an excellent reference for articles that straddle the boundary between innovation and quackery (certain ecology ideas and psychoanalysis proposals come to mind). Any thoughts on this? --ScienceApologist 17:47, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

But how is that different from science? — Dunc|☺ 17:55, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

"Science" is a process. "Mainstream science" is an institution. --ScienceApologist 18:35, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Halton Arp publishes in "mainstream scientific" journals. Hannes Alfvén's "Plasma Universe" was peer reviewed by "mainstream science". Dilemma? --Iantresman 19:05, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Not really. We can discuss the relationship between mainstream science and those who are "outside" mainstream science in an article on the subject. First we should decide whether we can write such an article. --ScienceApologist 19:13, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure. It seems unneccassery to me. Jefffire 19:16, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

We could discuss such notions in the article itself, but I would be disappointed if you went to all that trouble, only to discover that "inside/outside" the mainstream is based on personal research, rather than objective criteria. Can you provide a couple of peer-reviewed sources that might clear up the matter?

Part of the reason I'm posting here is asking for people's input on the matter. Obviously resources from the article on the scientific community might be useful, but the proposed article is from a slightly different perspective. Currently, I have no resources, which is exactly why I haven't started writing the article.--ScienceApologist 01:29, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes I'm increasingly thinking there needs to be a good article linking all the criticism of the science together. To me these seem to fall into two main camps

• Cricicism of the Scientific establishment, how the process of science is guided by the government funding and funding by specific interest groups (eg drug and oil companies). The impact of the establish journals giving prominence to certain modes of enquiry. For example: there is only one professor on complementary medicine in the UK; research on Medical cannabis has been severely limited; and then there is all the criticism of the Bush's administration especially in relation to climate change.
• Criticism of the scientific method. Can a reductionist approach be applied to all modes of enquiry cf Holism in science. Also there is the Thomas Kuhn paradigm view (in the end science is just another paradigm) and postmodernist critiques, especially Michel Foucault. Romanticism was an early critique.

There are plenty of good critiques out there. I saw The Golem: What You Should Know About Science [3] in a bookshop the other day and this seems to be a fairly notable critique, alas I did not buy it. --Salix alba (talk) 08:26, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

---

I'd like to see an article, perhaps not within pseudoscience, but on wikipedia, regarding the pseudoscientific theories surrounding Orgone and Orgonite. User: MilquetoastCJW

Ian's concerns about what constitutes "inside"

Per the suggestion of others, I've redacted irrelevant comments to their own section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ScienceApologist (talk • contribs) .

Who judges who is on the "inside", or what is considered "consensus"? According to the literature, a consensus of papers still considers comets to be dirty snowballs, and "2003 UB313" has less papers about it that Halton Arp has published on intrinsic redshift --Iantresman 19:25, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant? You brought up the idea of "inside" and "outside" of mainstream science, and these question seem key to the article? How can the merit of an article be assessed if you're going to side-line some of the content. I haven't criticised your article suggestion at all, the least you can do is engage in the discussion. --Iantresman 09:08, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoarcheology

User:Kenosis, why do you want to remove pseudoarchealogy from the list? Can you explain your reasoning? When I compiled some watchlists dealing with pseudoscience, I had a large number which I thought of as pseudoarchaeology. ---CH 06:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

(Today in Pseudoarcheology: User:Kenosis tagged with a citation request {{fact}} all the items in the list which didn't have a reference; I untagged Pseudoarchaelogy as being defined as a pseudoscience, and he/she deleted it from the list entirely.) I think it may be better as a See Also than as an example, as is pseudophysics. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:45, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi Hillman and Arthur. I'm not wedded to that decision to remove. But my objective is twofold:

• (1) For the article to at least have reasonably credible citations, ideally multiple citations, for all the contents of that repeatedly controversial list. Pseudoarcheology (note the lack of a link from the common alternate spelling to date, for instance) is not well supported in this article on pseudoscience nor in the article on the topic of pseudoarcheology. I vaguely suspect there may be good reason for lack of citations for the term, as much of what is listed as pseudoarcheology is really speculation based on what we might call simply "archeology" (or "archaeology"), itself an often highly speculative business — not to even mention notorious forms of "skulduggery", private marketing of artifacts and other such "junk archeology".
• (2) To try to keep the length of the list somwhat under control with an occasional sweeping of marginal items. If you include pseudoarchaeology and pseudophysics, I can add pseudopsychology (a pet peeve of mine), someone else may start an article on pseudosociology (readily found in most bar-rooms), etc. I imagine there already exist other such items that contain other folks' targets of ire in yet other articles on Wikipedia, and at some point in the expansion a case can easily be made for a pseudo-every-kind-of-science on the List of scientific fields.... Kenosis 14:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

But like I said, I'm not wedded to the edit, and found Arthur Rubin's choice to put it in "see also" to be a reasonable decision in this case... Kenosis 14:30, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Should Pseudoscience be merged with Religion?

--Greasysteve13 04:29, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No, the subjects are very different. Religion can be mentioned in the pseudoscience article though. Especially regarding religious beliefs. Some new pseudosciences are considered to be associated with new age or new alternative religions (eg, NLP, TFT, Energy Therapies, Dianetics) Bookmain 05:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Put dont all preachers present at least some unproved material as fact?--Greasysteve13 08:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

No, they're based on (a) different paradigms (b) one's based on faith, the other on not following rules. --Iantresman 09:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Its all faith.--Greasysteve13 09:30, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscience can be faith-based, but it can also be based on industrial interests (as in the psuedo-science presented by the smoking industry). So, not the two articles should not by any means be merged. --Kristjan Wager 13:57, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It's all a matter of consensus. This proposal needs a highly unlikely one: pseudoscience is generally seen as a negative label, while billions of people see the label "religion" as a positive one. What's more, even if you would be able to align editors (which means convincing editors writing for a religious POV that this merge is necessary), you can't ignore current use of the "pseudoscience" and "religion" categories. Information on (i.e. a tally of) current use is vital; an uninformed consensus is usually very shortlived, especially regarding a change that would impact many articles at once.

For new editors who may be wondering why this should be a matter of consensus:

• We can't answer the question by thinking about these categories (see WP:NOR). Wikipedia documents knowledge available from reputable reliable sources. The WP:NPOV policy compliance of content (including categorization) is safeguarded by means of the consensus process. We can argue about categories all we want, but in the end their use needs to conform to the NPOV policy as ensured by the consensus process.
• Categories often contain many articles, all of which will be changed somewhat if this proposal would be implemented. Existing categorization has already gone through many iterations of the information gathering and consensus processes. This has been a massive effort and its results cannot be disregarded. Before seeking consensus regarding the removing, renaming or merging of existing categories, one had better assess how they are used in practice. In this specific case I would say that categories are identical for practical WP purposes when the consensus process invariably puts articles in both. AvB ÷ talk 14:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe its a matter of pos or neg. One sign of pseudoscience is the use of obscurantist language, disguising itself as science, whilst trying to immunise itself against scientific testing (often under the mantra of holism). This makes it quite different from religion. Its also not really a matter of consensus. If an author states that E.G. primal scream therapy, is pseudoscientific, then it can be mentioned with proper attribution. If the same author also says it is a religion, then that seperate fact can be placed on the PST article with proper attribution. There may be some mention on the pseudoscience article, that some religions use pseudoscientific subjects according to (name, year, page number) authors. Bookmain 03:52, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't think I have a problem with much of your take on this. But we can't merge two subjects on the say-so of a single author. That would require both concepts to be equal in the eyes of just about the whole world. And contrary to what you're saying, consensus always has the last word. Consensus, WP style, does not decide whether an assertion is true; it decides whether the policies have been followed (especially the main policy WP:NPOV, where consensus decides whether or not the various POVs are given due weight). The reasoning behind this is that the consensus process is a practical method to represent the various POVs out there in the world (see WP:CON). (I've learnt to live with this reality of Wikipedia, but don't like it nearly as much as I like the WP:NPOV policy.) This means that some half of the editors will oppose such a merge simply because they do not want to associate (their) religion with something seen as negative. That is a lot of editors, ready to dig up and quote pages of major POVs voiced by notable people/etc. in reliable sources. In any case, my main point is that merging these two articles would radically influence the categories of the same name and even the NPOV policy itself, causing a backlash in the form of a swift reversion. (See also what links here.) The community has already given its verdict on this merge idea; just sample the overlap between the articles in Category:Religion and Category:Pseudoscience. AvB ÷ talk 11:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In general, pseudoscience is stuff claiming to be science that isn't. Somethings can be both religion and pseudoscience, such as some forms of creationism (especially intelligent design), but they are not by any means the same thing. JoshuaZ 04:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

So its only pseudoscience when someone has claimed it be science when it isn't? In this case religion is hardly ever been considered science because of the negative impact of the word science.--Greasysteve13 04:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

True enough. Some things can be in several categories. For example, Scientology can be in the science and religion categories, because it makes religious and scientific claims, and fits the bill for being a pseudoscience and a pseudoreligion.

As far as merging? Definitely not. -- Fyslee 04:42, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely No to merge. Almost completely different. Bubba73 (talk), 04:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay no merge. We've all reached the consensus that its only psuedoscience when someone has said its science when it isn't.--Greasysteve13 04:53, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

In which case can I add Christian Science to the list of Fields alleged to be pseudoscientific and phenomena associated with pseudoscientific methods of study?--Greasysteve13 05:00, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

"If the shoe fits....", and it does.....;-) -- Fyslee 05:41, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay I'll add it. Its just that when you edit that section it tells you to discuss it on the talk page first... and I have.--Greasysteve13 07:05, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I oppose this addition. Despite its name, Christian Science seems to be just a religion and not a pseudoscience. I don't see adherents trying to overthrow existing scientific theories, though they do believe in healing-through-prayer. Nonetheless, I don't see this belief as being particularly pseudoscientific. Is every faith-healer also a pseudoscientist? I'd say not.

But Christian Science is Science based on the divinity of the Bible... how can this be scientific?--Greasysteve13 10:50, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Is it really portrayed as science in the same clear way that Scientology is? That's not so clear to me. I know it has "science" in the name. I know it's refered to as "divine science". But nonetheless I don't see believers claiming that their religion is a scientific theory as such. It seems to be just a religion to me. (Citations could prove me wrong.) Phiwum 11:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Caveat: I don't know much about Christian Science, so if you can show some evidence that adherents consider it a scientific theory, then I'll withdraw my complaint. But when they call it "divine science", that seems to be a rather different sense of "science" than is relevant here. Phiwum 10:19, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi! I just joined the discussion. I know quite a lot about Christian Science (it's my religion!) Christian Scientists have little interest in overthrowing or challenging mainstream science and they're not even that interested in measuring the results of CS, just in healing sick people. I'm not sure we are that interested in being up there with evolution or relativity either, though we don't have a major problem with either. Personally speaking I've relied on CS for more than thirty years and had many healings that I attribute to it, and in that time have used no medicine (apart from some associated with dental treatment). I became interested in CS because there was no successful medical treatment for a physical problem I had (they still haven't found one). All of that is "anecdotal" of course, but I'd rather be anecdotal and well than "scientific" and sick ;-)In principle though I think you could set up a method whereby the claims of CS could be falsified a la Popper. What you would need to do would be to take a group of people who relied exclusively on Christian Science and a comparable group who used no healing method whatever. Then you could compare their respective morbidity/mortality over a set period of time. (The contrasted group could not use medical means since that would simply compare the respective efficacy of CS and medicine.) Such an experiment would be difficult but not in principle impossible, and consequently CS passes Popper's criterion of falsifiability and should therefore be removed from the Pseudosciences category, apart altogether from the fact that I am asking with a smile :-)Thanks.81.108.23.116 21:55, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Good to hear from someone in the know. What you're saying tallies with the information in the Christian Science article. Since there is no (incorrect) claim of being human/naturalist science and/or the use of the scientific method, this is not pseudoscience. Actually I removed the cat yesterday since the article itself does not quote any sources, let alone a majority view, calling CS pseudoscience. By the way, although some editors brought this up here, (further) discussion should take place on the relevant talk page. AvB ÷ talk 23:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Hi guys. Just to reiterate; A subject does not have to be considered science by its adherents in order to be thought of as pseudoscientific. For the sake of this article, all that is required is a reliable view that concludes a subject is pseudoscientific. EG, Prof Smith considers David Icke's new technology of consciousness to be pseudoscientific. Bookmain 04:30, 1 June 2006 (UTC) Remember that a lot of quacks will concoct a whole set of comforting and easy to swallow theories, put new age neuromyths all over their literature, refer to themselves and each other as Dr. whassname, and use a multitude of obscurantisms that require a large glossary at the back of their bible. They will then state that they are not doing science, but are up to some kind of technology, spiritual development, religion, philosophy or epistemology. They do this to avoid being falsified empirically. These are all classic indications of pseudoscientific commercial developments and cults. Bookmain 04:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the opinion of a scientist can change the meaning of a word overwhelmingly used differently. If so, I'd like to point out that, at least in Wikipedia practice, the opinion of a single scientist, however notable, and however verifiable and reliable the source (media), does not establish fact.

About your example and rationale: although I'm sure it's not intentional, they constitute a bit of a straw man really. You argue that certain nonscientific tricks (intended to obscure) can be used as markers of pseudoscience in the absence of a scientific presentation/claim/etc. However, the latter does not apply to your example. It contains classical ingredients that together automatically denote a claim to be science. The presence of a range of scienthy terminology, titles and paraphernalia, e.g. "technology" in a definition, continuous use of the Doctor title, easy to swallow theories, the application of neuromyths - it's pseudoscience because it presents as science even though it isn't. (Although it's not (yet) in the article, when a scientific-looking set-up/theory/rip-off/etc. is denied to be science by its promoters, I tend to view such a denial as another indicator that something may be pseudoscience.) AvB ÷ talk 10:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's the trick: Pseudoscience presents itself as if it were science. Not merely as if it were true, but it claims to be following scientific practices to reach truth. In general, "God told us." isn't part of the scientific playbook. Thus, even if religion is false while claiming to be true, it is not pseudoscience because it does not claim to be science. This is not to say that there are no religious pseudosciences. Some religions and religious sects like to cloak themselves in the mantle of science. They adopt scientific trappings. However, the majority of religion does not do this. That's how I draw the line. Does it purport to be "science". "True" is another matter, altogether.Dogface 04:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

That controversial section again...

Look, I know that the list has seen some controversy and that the section title has been formed by long and tedious negotiations. But really: Fields alleged to be pseudoscientific and phenomena associated with pseudoscientific methods of study? That title reflects its origins: something so awkward could only be formed by committee!

Is it possible to agree on a shorter, less awkward title? Frankly, I don't mind if the title is slightly controversial and folks have to read a sentence or two to understand what the section is about. It's better than having a title longer than a haiku. (Haiku? It's approaching epic proportions!)

How about: "Fields associated with pseudoscience"? It's not quite accurate: the association is really more allegation that they are pseudoscience. Some of the list items aren't fields but objects of study and so on. Nonetheless, it's an improvement over the current clunker and we have an introductory passage clarifying the list anyway.Phiwum 06:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Its not that bad of a title. "associated" is not a good qualifier, because then things like quantum mechanics ans string theory would fall under such a title because they are often associated with pseudoscience via New Age "philosophy", but obviously are not pseudoscience.

The title really isn't that awkward. It is the best description of the content of the list compared to any of the past titles. --Brentt 20:27, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Title of This Entry

Hi again :-) I think the problem is with the term "Pseudoscience". "Pseudo" has the connotations of false. As a Christian Scientist I think that the Christian Science religion might well have problems in acceeding to contemporary requirements re scientificity in terms of prediction, falsifiability etc. (though I've suggested above how this problem might be overcome). However, that doesn't mean it's false or "pseudo". As the roots of Christian Science are in the nineteenth century (pre-Popper etc.) I don't think it's fair to attach the term "pseudoscience" to it. BTW, could someone explain to me what the criteria of falsifiability would be regarding e.g. the theory of evolution? How well--in practice--would a graduate student fare in one of the mainstream universities if he/she wanted to set up an experiment as part of their thesis project, whereby the theory of evolution might be falsified? (I should state here that Christian Scientists are not biblical literalists and personally I don't have any problem with neo-Darwinism--in fact it's fair to say that the fundamentalists dislike Christian Science probably as much as they do the theory of evolution!)81.108.23.116 08:03, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Such an experiment will always be welcomed if something new and interesting may be gleaned from it. However, so far no one has falsified the basic tenets of the evolution theory. Although evolution has its controversies, the evidence for it is overwhelming, with a probability approaching 100% which is good enough for the vast majority of scientists. AvB ÷ talk 11:05, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi 81.108.23.116 and thanks for your input. We really have no need to go into deep philosophical debate over the nature of science or pseudoscience. If a view is notable and reliable, then it can be included. Our goal here is not necessarily to keep everyone happy (though its a nice utopian ideal), but the goal is to present information on what pseudoscience is, and what certain notable views are on which subjects have been considered pseudoscientific. I understand that people may object to their interests being associated with pseudoscience, but Wikipedia guidelines do state that objectionable subjects should be tackled. This is all very easy as long as you are willing to be an editor, rather than an interested party in the particular subject you are trying to edit. Bookmain 09:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, a view can be included - if relevant, not original research, correctly sourced from reliable, non-partisan publications, etc.; (we do not require a view to be reliable, just that it's reported in reliable, verifiable sources).

But please note that even if a view is included in a Wikipedia article, it can't be called a fact unless there's broad consensus in the real world. A significant change of the generally accepted definition of a phenomenon like pseudoscience can't be changed in Wikipedia unless the definition has, indeed, been changed by a significant proportion of those who use the word. One scientist's opinion is not sufficient to declare something to be pseudoscience.

Also, I would at this point like to ask you to not suggest that other editors who have a personal POV somehow are not willing to be an editor without actually saying whom you mean and where they are pushing their POV. AvB ÷ talk 10:40, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The principle of falsifiability no longer has the same importance in philosophy of science that it once had, so your question about evolution is not so fundamental to its scientific status. I'm sure others on the group could quote the appropriate arguments from Quine better than I could. Aside from that quibble, I agree that calling Christian Science "pseudoscience" is odd at best. It seems a plain old religion, not a pseudoscience. I still have not seen any good justification for its inclusion on the list. Phiwum 09:17, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Oops. I see that someone has added a reference justifying the inclusion of Christian Science. I haven't seen that reference, so I withdraw my complaint until I read it. Phiwum 09:19, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Could you please point me to the reference? I must be overlooking it. AvB ÷ talk

I see you are no longer talking about the original question (inclusion of CS in Wikipedia's Pseudoscience category, which I reverted two days ago). This is about its inclusion in the disputed list of "alleged" pseudoscience in this article, which is something else altogether. Looking into it now. BTW, this does not negate my points in this section regarding the application of policy, civility, etc. AvB ÷ talk 11:21, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Me again. Well, I guess I can live with Christian Science being included as a pseudoscience given that someone, somewhere, has published something stating that it is! I have a broader problem, though. It would be fairly easy to find some published resource, either hard-copy or on-line, denoting e.g. neo-Darwinism as a pseudoscience. But if someone were to add neo-Darwinism to the list of pseudo-sciences, the entry would probably last about three nano-seconds. Consequently, how does one differentiate between "acceptable" references and non-acceptable ones? What gets left on and what gets removed seems to have a lot to do with how many people have the time and interest to edit material on the relevant entries. Isn't this a game of power rather than truth?81.108.23.116 10:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

You make a very good point. Fortunately, it has been made before. Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy explains how editors handle such situations. Declaring for a fact, based on flimsy sources, that CS is a pseudoscience would not last all that long either. AvB ÷ talk 10:48, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Would it be possible to post the definition under which items are included in The Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience (in general, and for CS if another definition is used there)? The article states: The following is a list of theories and fields of endeavor which critics such as Robert Carroll, author of The Skeptic's Dictionary, and William F. Williams, editor of The Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience, fault as failing to meet the norms and standards of scientific practice in one way or another. This is broader than the definition of pseudoscience in the lead of the article in that it seems to include items that are not portrayed as or claimed to be science. Perhaps Bookmain... you seem to have a copy of The Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience? Thanks in advance. AvB ÷ talk 12:22, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

PS If this book calls CS pseudoscience, I think we would also need to know what has informed this qualification (e.g. editor's opinion, author's opinion, journal article). AvB ÷ talk 21:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi all. Well, the book (encyc of pseudoscience) is edited by Williams, and there are about 20 contributors all of whom are experts and professors. So its a well supported source. Clearly in the book the CS is explained in terms of mind over matter, and this is a common pseudoscientific subject. I say this in the most neutral terms. Take another look on the article. There are many older pseudoscientific healing subjects such as vedic science, which are clearly pseudoscientific, but can be very easily seen by the reader as different from the other new age quick fix pseudosciences such as Scientology and NLP. I'm sure most readers will understand that the older religions are full of old pseudoscientific healing notions, and its quite acceptable as a historical fact. If there are some criticisms over the dangers (avoidance of conventional medicine) then again, that is a view. But certainly, I wouldn't read CS as a dubious quick fix, characteristic of new age pseudosciences. Experts classify it as pseudoscience because its theory and tennets have been tested and falsified. If its your religion all the best to you, belief counts for something and I'm sure most other readers would think the same. CS may use ideas that are incompatible with the scientific method, but it certainly doesn't present itself as a money-grabbing scam or hazardous cult like many other pseudos today. The average reader will understand that. I've a friend who follows "the healing path of Druidry". I find it funny, though perhaps I shouldn't laugh. He knows it is pseudoscience, but he still says he benefits from it. People have the choice, and the reader will make up their own minds on this article. Bookmain 05:27, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi! Actually Christian Science is not mind over matter, but Mind (God) over (the belief in) matter. But let that pass. I have never heard of the theory and tenets of CS being falsified, though I have heard of the argument that they cannot be falsified (therefore, the argument goes, CS is not science). So either they've been falsified or they cannot be falsified: the two arguments are logically incompatible. I'm going to be a bit ironic now ;-) but it would appear that I've been hallucinating for the last thirty years because I've certainly had numerous physical healings following CS treatment that would be difficult (though not impossible) to ascribe to chance, natural remission or whatever. I've also saved both myself and the taxpayer an awful lot of money on medical treatment that I didn't have to have! (I know, I know, it's anecdotal, like stones falling from the sky...) I don't have a problem with my religion being accused of failing to conform to the rigorous standards of proof required in principle of mainstream contemporary science, but I do have a problem with its being labelled "pseudo". A person who for whatever reason was unable to prove his/her legal existence would, I am sure, object to being called a "pseudo-human". Christian Science developed long before Popper, Kuhn, Feyerabend or Quine and consequently it is not fair, I think, to desigate it as being being "pseudo." I can't speak for any of the other "pseudo-sciences" listed but if CS stays in the list, I for one would be happier if an alternative title could be chosen for this entry, one which is descriptively correct but doesn't have pejorative connotations like "pseudoscience".Thanks.81.108.23.116 09:51, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Bookmain for the information about the book. It sounds like an interesting resource and a welcome addition to my bookshelf (so I'm buying myself a copy). But for now, would you say that the book classes CS under pseudoscience using the definition given in this WP article, or a broader def? Perhaps if a broader definition is being used by a significant minority it should be included in the article.

BTW, I'd like to ask you not to mention guesses regarding my possible POV in cases where I have chosen not to divulge that information. Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 10:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi AvB. Well they use a pretty standard definition. I did say "If it is your religion". That applies to every editor and reader here. I have noticed a lot of articles where believers seem so effected by criticism that their entire time is devoted to advocating its removal (censorship or whitewash). And I've noticed that some of those believers are able to accept it, and they reasonably move on. I prefer to encourage the constructive behaviour of the latter. I've noticed how easy it is to remove facts on Wikipedia, and how fast they come back fortified after a little research. Pressure to remove verifiable fact tends also to result in all sorts of other cans of worms being opened and presented on the article. And as a result, they all seem to be presented very fairly and indelibly. Bookmain 05:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi! Well it seems I'm in a kind of double bind--if I remove the reference to Christian Science it would probably be called censorship and if I ask for it to be removed, or the heading changed, that's censorship or whitewash :-/ BTW I have no objection to "verifiable facts" being published in Wikipedia or anywhere else. In fact I would even outline how one could set up a research project to test the healing claims of Christian Science (or any other non-conventional healing system, call it system X). What you do is you take a group of people who have used system X exclusively for a defined period of time, and you compare their morbidity / mortality against that of a comparable group who have used no system whatsoever for the same period of time, bearing in mind--and controlling for--the fact that adherents of system X probably include a significant number of people who either had at one time problems that could not be healed by conventional medicine, or have immediate ancestors in that category. I am not aware of any research that employs that degree of rigour. Research that claims to "disprove" the claims of Christian Science shows only--at best--that its track record does not equal that of conventional medicine. (In other words, the negative conclusion is relative not absolute.) Anyway I'm now going to "reasonably move on" and I wish everyone the very best!81.108.23.116 20:45, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Bookmain, given that the definition matches the one applied in the article I agree that CS belongs in the list.

81.108.23.116, this is so not because CS is truly pseudoscience, but because a reliable, verifiable, peer-reviewed source says it is. If this is difficult for you to accept, it may help if you (re)read Wikipedia policies and guidelines such as WP:NPOV and WP:NOR.

Bookmain, I certainly hope you are not suggesting that my entire time is devoted to advocating censorship or whitewashing. What I'm trying to explain to you is one of the things I myself have noticed on Wikipedia: in general, suggestions that other editors are nothing more than POV warriors, however slight, can poison the atmosphere pretty quickly. For that reason it is generally frowned upon and may even in some cases be a personal attack. Thanks. AvB ÷ talk 02:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

It turns out that Bookmain is a sock puppet of HeadleyDown and has been blocked indefinitely. See User:Bookmain. AvB ÷ talk 02:55, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Original research tag

Vast swaths of this article remain uncited, e.g. the list in "identifying pseudoscience", and the section discussing protoscience appears to have veered into OR. Also, the definition of pseudoscience given in the lead section goes beyond at least one of the sources: it says the term applies not just to ideas but to practices. The OED citation says "Pseudoscientific - pretending to be scientific, falsely represented as being scientific". Robert Todd Carroll's definition (IMO a succinct and good one) says "A pseudoscience is set of ideas based on theories put forth as scientific when they are not scientific." Carroll's discussion refers entirely to theories and not practices. I think the article (and the lead) should be clear (including in the lead) that there are at least two senses of the term: one referring to theories, and another to theories a/o practices. The distinction isn't trivial; cf acupuncture practice vs. TCM theory. thx, Jim Butler 07:57, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a curates egg Jim. I agree with some of what you say but not all. 1. I'm happy to delete the whole protoscience section as OR. 2. Your quote of the OED (2nd ed, update to 1997, republished 2002) is not complete. Here it is for ref:

A pretended or spurious science; a collection of related beliefs about the world mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method or as having the status that scientific truths now have.

Since science is also a set of practices I can't agree with you that the same doesn't apply to PS. So I'm reasonably happy with the lead. 3. On the ID section, yes it needs a rewrite, but as you know, we don't have to source everything. Reasonable inferences and logical conclusions can legitimately be made. Personally, I'd like to include something about belief systems and their brain physiology. It's fascinating to watch believers convince themselves. I'm reminded for example of the case of the guy with the brain lesion who was convinced his mother was an imposter. Mccready 09:16, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kevin - never heard the expression "Curate's Egg" before -- learn something new every day. (1) Protoscience section is probably salvageable with fact-tagging. (2) Thanks for OED; I was going by the shorter def of the adjective given in the footnotes. Having slept on it, I think you're right re acts as well as ideas falling plausibly within the def. My old copy of Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary defines pseudoscience as "a system of theories, assumptions and methods erroneously regarded as scientific". Close enough. On (3), please see my comments below to Kenosis.

In general, we're going to continue to have disagreement if you continue to insist on categorizing things as PS without references. If the basic definition of PS is "something misrepresented as science", then whether something is PS hinges on both mispresentation and on science: i.e., the nature (and degree) of misrepresentation, and the demarcation problem, including the nature of acceptable evidence. Even EBM folks disagree on evidence, and docs differ on applying it in practice -- it is POV and OR to label all non-EBM practice PS, and you're just gonna have to reference use of the label. Wouldn't that be easier than venturing into edit war land and having to keep asking third parties? Some things like "creation science" are obviously pseudoscientific, but labelling trigger points as PS is I think pretty debatable. For most alt-med stuff that you want to call PS, I think it's pretty clear that NPOV requires citing sources.

BTW, On psychobiology, agree, fascinating stuff, but Brentt is right below -- probably would be OR to cover without a citation. thx, Jim Butler 23:43, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

There is more than one "guy", its called Capgras syndrome (if you think thats wierd, check out the related Fregoli syndrome). Unfortunately I don't think there has been such studies specifically related to "pseudoscientific" beliefs, nor could there be without a more rigourous definition of such beliefs. Brentt 19:09, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Which specific assertions in the sections on "Pseudoscience contrasted with protoscience" and "Identifying pseudoscience" are under dispute here? Thus far I see only a complaint that theories and practices are not distinguished in the article. In fact, both "theory" and "practice" fit under the offered definitions of pseudoscience, specifically (1) claiming scientific basis, and (2) not having followed accepted methodology of science. This, give or take a few words, is what is already offered to the reader in both the introduction and the section on identifying pseudoscience. Both the intro and the first paragraph of the section on Identifying pseudoscience involved lengthy discussions and consensus of at least a dozen editors... Kenosis 18:42, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kenosis - great work on the article! Agree on the OR tag applying just to the sections you mentioned, and after sleeping on it I agree that practice falls within the definition as well as theory (see comments above to Mccready). To answer your question, the entire list of criteria under "identifying pseudoscience" appears unverified or OR. Some of the criteria are based on well-accepted demarcations of science, and some are related to logical fallacies that any bullshitter could use. Pretty much the whole protoscience section looks ORish. Don't get me wrong, it's good stuff but needs citation; otherwise probably better on the talk page. Lots of notable folks have commented on these issues and I'd rather cite them than compile our own OR syntheses of ideas and lists of supposed criteria. More to follow within a few hours: just got kicked off computer by spouse. cheers, Jim Butler 23:46, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Thank you for fact-tagging that list, Kenosis. Jim Butler 01:28, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Quite welcome. I trust in due course it'll get filled in one or two reasonable citations at a time, and we can further proceed to remove any remaining chaff. ... Kenosis 06:00, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. You're probably already familiar with the content of the External Links section; browsing them, I noticed some lists of characteristics given in Simanek's What Is Pseudoscience? (currently second from the bottom) as well as in Carroll's SkepDic entry. I reworded the second para of the ID section; I hope you'll agree that the examples listed are useful but not definitive. The first paragraph's discussion of documentation is good, but seems incomplete given the discussion of other issues (intersubjective verifiability, falsifiability) in the introduction. The introductory section of the article, however, is really good! I think a little tweaking can bring the ID and protoscience sections up to speed. As always, sleeping on this will help. Thanks for being so on the ball. cheers, Jim Butler 07:16, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi all. I believe the protoscience section is inappropriate on this article. In fact, it looks to be too much like a stillborn attempt at an excuse for pseudoscientists unwillingness to test their inflated assertions. It may be helpful if the OR is tagged somehow, wherever you find it. Overall, the article needs more solid citations, and I will work on providing some more. Any reliable view that states what they think pseudoscience is can be quoted. I have some information by Devilly (2005) on power therapies (NLP, TFT, Energy therapies) that gives some excellent information on how modern pseudoscientists set up their followings. Also, Lilienfeld (2003) offers a set of characteristics of pseudoscientific subjects especially within psychotherapy. This may turn out to be a list, and I'm sure there will be overlap. But as long as we are organized about it, it should improve the article. I will provide the information soon. Oh, there is also a good line by Beyerstein (1991), who states that one of the biggest disservices of pseudos is the spread of mind myths and other misconceptions throughout society. Bookmain 05:46, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Sockpuppet discussion

Bookmain is a sock puppet of HeadleyDown and has been blocked indefinitely. See User:Bookmain. AvB ÷ talk 02:57, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Bookmain and Headley Down are both members of the Hong Kong University Skeptic Society. So am I. No doubt some Wikipedians (the pseudoscience promoters) will be bent on banning the whole of Hong Kong and China for presenting any facts that just happen to be against American home grown bullshit. Just to prove my good faith, I will not advocate any changes to the article here. I'll just present solid verifiable fact. SciSkepticisMa 09:11, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This is interesting - so you're saying this is not sock puppetry. Will you and/or the other user(s) contend the "verdict"? FWIW, and I'm aware this is not the place to discuss the matter, I do not know Bookmain or any alter egos other than from the brief discussion re the 'alleged pseudoscience list', but in my opinion Bookmain's contributions towards building an encyclopedia here were solidly in line with Wikipedia policy and practice. I am not particularly fond though of the recurrent references to other people's POV, but it looked like newbie-ish behavior in an otherwise remarkable experienced newbie, not anywhere near actually being disruptive. The verdict that Bookmain is a sock puppet of a veteran editor certainly rings true to me. I see this user is now permabanned. A pity since s/he has everything one needs to be a good Wikipedian. Especially if there are now two such editors with a permaban.

As to pseudoscience promoters, I believe Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy, if not intentionally biased in favor of knowledge/information gained by scientists using the scientific method, is certainly strong enough to prevent it from becoming a platform for fringe views. Or, indeed, any views. Wikipedia aims to present any view fairly, including notable/etc. criticisms leveled at it, so that readers are fully informed and can reach their own conclusions (which may well be very different from yours and mine). AvB ÷ talk 10:16, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I happen to notice that the arrival of new user SciSkepticisMa coincides nicely with the blocking of HeadleyDown and the previous sockpuppet Bookmain. I would hate to be too skeptical about this coincidence, especially after the allegation that blocking a user and derivative sockpuppet(s) amounts to a cultural or national bias. ... Kenosis 17:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I think some skepticism is allowed when dealing with skeptics. AvB ÷ talk 18:03, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Well sure guy, its a crock. Skeptics only use the facts and science. Social pressure is something a fanatic uses (and scientology like vexatious litigation in the NLP case). And you say fringe is not promoted, well look at the article now. There's no science voice in the group any more (after the arbitrators' cockup), so fringe is promoted above science (and US above China). It'll only change if you put your knowledge where your mouth is. Enough bagua, here are some facts:

Devilly describes NLP and Power Therapies as pseudoscience and a threat to psychotherapy and consumers alike.

Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry Volume 39 Issue 6 Page 437 - June 2005 Power Therapies and possible threats to the science of psychology and psychiatry Grant J. Devilly

Page 440 (on how pseudosciences (such as NLP) are promoted).

1 Create a phantom An unavailable goal that looks real and possible; it looks as if it might be obtained with just the right effort, just the right belief, eg, "excellence".

2. Set a Rationalization Trap

The rationalization trap is based on the premise: Get the person committed to the cause as soon as possible. Once a commitment is made, the nature of thought changes. They seek confirmation of efficacy.

3. Manufacture Source Credibility and Sincerity

The third tactic is to manufacture source credibility and sincerity. In other words, create a guru, leader, mystic, lord, or other generally likable and powerful authority (psychological authority)

4. Establish a Granfalloon Establish what Kurt Vonnegut terms a "granfalloon," a proud and meaningless association of human beings Using in house jargon and beliefs, shared goals, shared feelings, specialized information, enemies (e.g., alternative medicine opposing the AMA and the FDA).

5 Frequently Use Heuristics and Commonplaces

Use heuristics and commonplaces. Heuristics are simple if-then rules or norms that are widely accepted; for example, if it costs more it must be more valuable.

If you like, I can put them in straight quotes. No BS, just facts. Or you could just forget about facts and boot me for being a collectivist chink. SciSkepticisMa 00:50, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

This was actually interesting. I'll keep Pseudoscience and NLP on my watch list for a while. May the Force be with you. ;-) AvB ÷ talk 21:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

No worries AvB. You're not gonna see me on the NLP article, or even here any more. HeadleyDown explained that Woohookitty is fine at clarity and NPOV. I reckon thats right. No need for skeptics. Bye SciSkepticisMa 03:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Woohookitty is indeed. But you're wrong about the need for skeptics. Perhaps I'm one. I still think we'll meet again... some sunny day etc. AvB ÷ talk 20:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Kenosis edits

Kenosis, your edits on the psuedoscience page are unacceptable. Your edit summary Revert factually incorrect POV pushing. To say the boundaries of science are disputed is incorrect without the statement about the "precise" boundaries, is also incorrect in logical terms. Removal of the qualifer "precise" does not achieve what you claim. You then edited the page MORE THAN TWENTY TIMES!!! I gave up counting. This is going way beyond what is acceptable, in my view. If other editors feel the same perhaps they could say so. Please take this in good faith, I am only trying to explain to you that your behaviour makes it much harder to work together to create an excellent article which I assume we both desire. You may also like to check my Editing principles for pseudoscience articles. I'm always keen to talk and try to reach consensus. Mccready 12:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I didn't seem like Kenosis's edits were over the top. Since Kenosis didn't rearrange the order of paragraphs in the article, once can readily see the diffs between your previous edit and Kenosis's string of edits easily compared. Your most recent ones look OK to me although some might question "broad agreement exists on the basics ..." vs. "broad agreement exists on certain basics..." thx, Jim Butler 14:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

And we're not finished editing either. All but three of these edits were in direct response to Jim Butler's demands for citation. Judging by the comments posted since I added these latest citations, Jim Butler is of a different opinion about the issue, as may be the case with other involved editors. There were roughly a dozen editors involved in the article when we arrived at the current language for that sentence (about the "precise boundaries" of scientific method being less than settled, and about wide agreement on certain core principles). Moreover, there is now one solid citation for this statement, with more to come in the near future. Having said that, there may be other ways of expressing the fact that there are core agreements about scientific method (among knowledgeable practitioners at least) with marginal disputes around various edges. Among other things involved here, there are actually four or five separate schools of how to define the edges, including that of Popper, Kuhn, Lacatos, and Thagard. Perhaps this should be summarized, but I think the "main" articles, Scientific method, Philosophy of science and Demarcation problem are the appropriate places for such detailed treatment. The sentence as it stands is correct. The sentence which attempted to say that the boundaries are disputed is misleading without qualification that there is wide agreement and consensus on the core principles of scientific method...Kenosis 15:34, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

As to the "POV pushing" comment, perhaps an apology is in order, and is hereby proffered. There are numerous editors (usually "just passing through", so to speak) who read or hear about Feyerabend's sociological perspective on science, and come to believe mistakenly that there are no boundaries or widely disputed boundaries involved in scientific method. Fact is, if one diagrams the consensus and the areas of dispute on scientific method it tends to look rather like a sunflower, with a core and a bunch of separate petals. Add or remove a few petals and it still looks like a sunflower...Kenosis 16:04, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Sentence on Lacatos temporarily removed

I've removed this sentence (from the "Introduction" section, where it was the last sentence of the paragraph introducing Popper and falsifiability) and am temporarily placing it here so it can be reworked, analyzed and re-integrated more effectively...Kenosis 17:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

"These include the historiographical approach of Imre Lakatos in his Methodology of Scientific Research Programmes."17:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Lacatos has something important to contribute to this article, but the sentence as it currently reads does not tell the reader anything meaningful. I suspect the editor who originally placed it meant to say something like "In addition to Popper, other approaches to defining the bounds of science include that of Lacatos" or something to this general effect. To Lacatos we might perhaps also add other important commentators such as Kuhn and Thagard. ...Kenosis 17:56, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Freudianism and Psychoanalysis

Should we list psychoanalysis as a possible pseudoscience? This idea is more and more popular among skeptical thinkers (http://skepdic.com/psychoan.html) and scientists. One review of Frank Cioffi's book summarizes: "Freudian theory is pseudoscientific, Cioffi claims, because whatever occurs is taken to be confirming evidence. If, say, a patient is told that certain behavior manifests his Oedipus complex, he may respond by accepting the interpretation. If so, his agreement is taken as confirmatory. But if the patient rejects the theory, that also counts as evidence for its truth. Here the patient's resistance shows Freud's view correct." Cioffi, F. (1998). Freud and the Question of Pseudoscience. Open Court Publishing Company. ISBN 081269385X Dragice 03:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

The sources appear to mostly be about Freudianism rather than all psychoanalysis. This seems to be a bit of a messy subject. All of the articles currently on the list are definately pseudosciences, so I would be wary to add something that that is a grey area. Jefffire 11:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

That's a good point. As for the "messy" problem, I think most pseudosciences listed here are messy subjects because you will always find deep believers. My opinion is, the fact that a pseudoscience has more numerous and perhaps stronger proponents is not a reason for not listing it here, on the contrary. I propose focusing on the two mere questions: "is freudianism a pseudoscience?" and "are all psychoanalysis schools pseudosciences?". Popper himself thought that psychoanalysis does not meet the falsification criterion. To my knowledge, the only decent analysis that refutes this idea is (Grünbaum, 1979) but has been in turn refuted by (Cioffi, 1998). I also notice that (Williams, 2000) is used as a canonical reference here because almost each line in the list of pseudosciences cite him. Now, psychoanalysis (not Freudianism) is listed by Williams [4]. You fill find plenty of additional arguments on this webpage. Dragice 21:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Grünbaum, Adolf (1979), Is Freudian Psychoanalytic Theory Pseudo-Scientific by Karl Popper's Criterion of Demarcation?, "American Philosophical Quarterly", 16, Ap 79, s.131-141.

Erratum. Apparently it was not The Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience by Williams but The Skeptic Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience edited by Shermer. Sorry for the mistake. Dragice

There is probably a very valid case to make although these subjects are probably in a lower league of kookyness than the rest on the list which is my primary concern. Exceptionally robust sources would be required to add these I think. Jefffire 10:13, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Good call, Jeff. I have read that Freud's most whacko theories have been dumped by psychoanalysts. But I think this group should stay open to including it (as you say, with stronger evidence). On the other hand, the ones there right now should stay as there is good support (eg chiropractor). Overgrad 03:18, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the psychoanalysis case requires careful examination before being included here. But I want to make it clear that the argument of lack of evidence and using chiropratic as a comparison is not valid. Because if what you call "good support" is Carroll's Skeptic's Dictionary, I recall that Carroll also explicitly classifies psychoanalysis as a pseudoscience http://skepdic.com/psychoan.html. Again, this highlights the issue of canonical references: if Carroll is canonical, then there is no reason why we should not include psychoanalysis here. Now, I agree with you on the basis that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". Because for some reason people find the idea of mentioning psychoanalysis here funny and absurd, we should provide more references and perhaps be more specific. Let me think about it.

More to the same point, Carroll doesn't even call Chiropractic a pseudoscience. Read the page that is referenced about chiropractic. In fact, he says that there is a growing body of scientific evidence that chiropractic is effective in the treatment of many lower back ailments and neck injuries and that there is some evidence that chiropractic is effective for the treatment of certain kinds of headaches and other pains. I guess the question is: Is Carroll canonical? Levine2112 23:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Psychoanalysis is definitively a pseudoscience. Has anyone of you read Jeffrey Masson’s Final analysis? [5]. —Cesar Tort 23:18, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Chiropractic

Show us good support that Chiropractic is a pseudoscience. The practice of chiropractic is based on sound scientific principles. The existence of the nervous system as the primary control mechanism of the body is an undisputed scientific fact. Its relationship with the spine is the focus of the practice of chiropractic. The spine develops in utero to provide two primary functions: (1) allow for freedom of movement and (2) house and protect the spinal cord. When the vertebrae of the spine become misaligned through trauma or repetitive injury, two major consequences will result: (1) the range of motion becomes limited and (2) spinal nerves emerging from the spinal cord are compromised. DCs use the term "subluxation" to describe such disruptions. Interruption of nerve flow can eventually lead to pain, disability, and an overall decrease in the quality of life. Conversely, the removal of that interference has been shown to have significant, lasting health benefits. Through the adjustment of the subluxation, the doctor of chiropractic endeavors to restore normal nerve expression. The body is then able to respond appropriately to any imbalance in the system, thus relieving symptoms and restoring health. Levine2112 03:34, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

The list states that chiropractic has been alleged to be a pseudoscience. The citation given proves this is correct (I assume, since I haven't read it). I see no controversy at all. I will revert. Phiwum 09:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there is probably enough evidence to classify chiropractic as a pseudoscience, but I was personally apprehensive about adding it since, unlike the others on the list, there is a chance (however slim) that parts of it do work. Whilst I must stress that there is a distinction between invalid and pseudoscience (meaning that I consider this to be a pseudoscience but one that could have some validity to it) I felt that the addition muddied the water a bit. Basicaly I'm in two minds about it so I'm very open to persuasion one way or anouther. Jefffire 11:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

This is tough. According to the into to this section, it is clear that this list is POV (which is completely fine as far as Wikipedia goes). I cannot argue that there are people who consider Chiropractic to be a pseudoscience. I don't want to be like everyone else who comes to this discussion page and simply say that this opinion about my pet-science is based on ignorance. I would like everyone to recognize however, that chiropractic - though just over 100 years old - has been the victim of healthcare sabotage. Wilk vs the American Medical Association showed that the American Medical Association engaged in an unlawful conspiracy in restraint of trade to contain and eliminate the chiropractic profession by surpressing chiropractic research and denying their members to refer patients to chiropractors. If chiropractic is just pseudoscience, then what was the AMA afraid of? The AMA appealed this decision as recently as 1993. Bearing this large-scale conspiracy against chiropractic in mind (which the judge declared was more about eliminating economic competition rather than protecting patient safety), I would like to present some scientific research that shows the efficacy of chiropractic with certain conditions. In a study comparing the effectiveness of chiropractic treatment versus amitriptyline (a drug common for migraine headache treatment), the evidence showed spinal manipulation seemed to be as effective as a well-established and efficacious treatment (amitriptyline), and on the basis of a benign side effects profile, spinal manipulation should be considered a treatment option for patients with frequent migraine headaches. In the treatment of vertigo, researches concluded that chiropractic treatment is mandatory for the therapy of patients with vestibular affections and functional disorders of the craniovertebral joints. A study on whiplash lead researchers to say: Our results confirm the efficacy of chiropractic, with 69 of our 93 patients (74%) improving following treatment. A study on the effects of chiropractic on infantile colic lead its researchers to conclude: Spinal manipulation is effective in relieving infantile colic. This is only but a tiny portion of the scientific research that is out there supporting chiropractic. To learn more and to view hundreds upon hundreds of studies that are out there in support of the science of chiropractic, here are some good resources: [6] and [7]. Now then, if you want to keep Chiropractic in this list of Pseudosciences because some people consider it to be so, well you have a point. But if you think for one second that this opinion has not been partly shaped by a long-time, on-going conspiracy against chiropractic, then you are gravely mistaken. The research surpression and anti-chiropractic agenda rages on still. And though it is not coming directly from the AMA and big Pharma, there are links drawing back to these extremely powerful lobby groups. Please recognize that the intro paragraph of this section also states: Additional fields where research results are simply ambiguous or inadequate may be found on the Prescientific systems page and note that Chiropractic can be found on that page as well. I know that our job at Wikipedia is not to draw conclusions based on evidence, but merely to post documentable information. I am not here to convince you that chiropractic works. That would be soapboxing. I am only showing that there is a lot of documentable research pointing to and confirming the very scientific nature of chiropractic. Levine2112 17:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Further, I want to note that the citation given with Chiropractic on the alleged pseudoscience list does not in fact call chiropractic a pseudoscience. (Though I am sure, if someone looked hard enough, they could find a reference that does). However, this current reference has this to say:

For years chiropractors relied more on faith than on empirical evidence in the form of control studies to back up their claims about the wonders of nerve manipulation. This is changing and to some extent so is the relationship between the medical profession and chiropractic. There is a growing body of scientific evidence that chiropractic is effective in the treatment of many lower back ailments and neck injuries. There is some evidence that chiropractic is effective for the treatment of certain kinds of headaches and other pains. The chiropractor is one of the few alternative health practitioners that medical insurance will generally cover.

Let me remind you, that the above is from the Skeptic's Dictionary. So it seems that even the skeptics are conceding that chiropractic is backed by a growing body of scientific evidence. Levine2112 19:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

You need to be extremely careful when using the term scientific. I suggest you refer to the Wikipedia articles on Chiropractic, Scientific Method and, indeed, the definition of pseudoscience itself at the beginning of the article:

Point 1: Chiropractors claim that there is a scientific basis to their practice and methodology.

Point 2: Chiropractic is unscientific because the so-called theory of "vertebral subluxation" that underpins chiropractic has never been adequately or consistently defined in scientific terms by practitioners themselves. The theory therefore cannot be scientifically tested and is not capable of falsification, thereby failing the accepted test of whether a hypothesis is scientific. This is THE distinguishing feature between chiropractic and mainstream medical science.

It does not logically follow that, because certain practices of chiropractors are perceived by some practioners and patients as being effective in the treatment of some ailments in some circumstances, chiropractic itself is scientific. The article on chiropractic contains numerous references to articles that refute chiropractic's claims as to efficacy and safety. Note that the judge in the oft-referred Wilk case explicitly stated that no well designed, controlled, scientific study in relation to chiropractic had been done and refused to provide an opinion in this regard based on anecdote. And the anti-competitive practices undertaken by the AMA have no consequence as to the objective test of whether chiropractic is or is not scientific.

It follows that chiropractic must be defined as a pseudoscience, and accordingly I am putting it back in the list, or else we need to think very carefully about what it is we mean by pseudoscience. This issue is much, much more than one of semantics and goes far beyong the issue of pseudoscience. Ill-informed opinion with no scientific basis is clouding the substance of debates ranging across childhood vaccination, global warming, nuclear power and genetically modified foods. We run a high risk of a massive misallocation of resources as a result of this phenomenon, at substantial cost to us all. --Dorado 04:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I have looked at the link provided as a source for chiropractic's inclusion as a pseudoscience. The article does say that chiropractic practitioners use a variety of "pseudoscientific diagnostic techniques", but does not intimate that the whole of chiropracty is pseudoscientific; on the contrary, the conclusion of the article encourages people to ensure that their chiropractor is a competent one (implying that such a thing is possible, which means it's not a pseudoscience). I think there is a good case for dropping this from the list.

I have also just read Dorado's comments above (after writing the above paragraph). Dorado, one of the main things we need to focus on in this tendentious article is that we are not deciding on the pseudoscientific nature of these areas. We are only deciding if there is a verifiable source for including them, and trying to walk an egg-walk with terminology due to NPOV issues. Your arguments, however excellent in themselves, belong in a different kind of discussion. It is not our job to ensure that health care rates remain low! Hgilbert 05:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi. Prof Beyerstein believes Chiropractic is pseudoscientific. I will search for the other refs. I have come across many such views in my research. Savoylettuce 05:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

So have I, Savoylettuce - plenty of them. However, this is about more than who can find references to support chiropractic's inclusion in or exclusion from the list. My statements in relation to the scientific basis of chiropractic are statements of fact, and do not consitute opinion (or original research, for that matter). Under the accepted tenets of science and the scientific method, chiropractic is objectively NOT science. Given that chiropractors claim otherwise, chiropractic is prima facie a pseudoscience. Accordingly, we must be sceptical of claims to the contrary, whether or not these claims are supported by references to the results of studies that may or may not themselves be unscientific.

More broadly, Wikipedia articles that purport to address scientific subjects must be based on foundations of logical integrity. If all one needs is to find a reference supporting a position no matter how illogical or irrational, then we might as well not bother with scientific articles at all.

Finally, in relation to your comment as regards competent practitioners, this is a very important point, so I'm going to try to say it a different way. Whether chiropractic techniques are sometimes seen to work or not is entirely irrelevant to the question of whether they are based in science. They may be functioning as placebos, for example, or even via some type of pathological mechanism. But if these mechanisms cannot be objectively tested, the practice does not constitute science. This will remain true until chiropractors define their field in scientifically falsifiable terms. The ball is in their court. --Dorado 07:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Dorado. I believe you have pointed out some holes in this and other articles. Your points about chiropractic strike a certain chord. I will take a look on that article. In subjects of pseudoscience, clarity is key. I have noticed that some parts of Wikipedia NPOV policy have not been adhered to

• Criticisms can be stated (that is mostly done)
• Reasoning behind criticisms should be stated (often left out)

I believe this article needs more reasoning behind why something is considered pseudo. Your point on placebo is a case in point. Some pseudoscientists actually say their methods work BECAUSE of placebo. This is unreasonable. In science, placebo is noise to be filtered out. It shows non-efficacy.

Also, as pseudoscientists are here to generally confuse the public, it is important to state how pseudoscientists go about their business. I noticed that there were some refs posted here before that went into detail over this. I will follow up on them.

Anyway, I see on some pseudoscientific articles, that some believers place lots of "reasoning" for their pseudoscience. A lot of the actual scientific reasoning is left out though. So I see that more clarity is called for in all pseudoscientific subjects. This is an encyclopedia, and science does take priority over pseudoscience. Reasoning is key, as confusion is often a problem concrete examples are helpful. Thanks Savoylettuce 07:49, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

User Dorado has not cited anything to back up his opinion here. If this is just about finding a person who thinks a discipline is pseudoscience and then adding it to our list, then I have a lot of things to add to this list including vaccination and medicine. Now, I have provided so many links above showing just how rooted chiropractic is in science and how, despite the AMA attempts to cover up the research, chiropractic is now finally taking its place as a completely legitimate scientific endeavor. Levine2112 02:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Levine. Chiropractic is notable pseudoscience. Readers will want to know why it is a pseudoscience. They can see from Beyerstein that it is very pseudoscientific. It is clear also in the chiropractic article that it is pseudoscience. Hylas Chung 04:47, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

References as to the efficacy and safety of chiropractic treatment

"For patients with low back pain, the McKenzie method of physical therapy and chiropractic manipulation had similar effects and costs, and patients receiving these treatments had only marginally better outcomes than those receiving the minimal intervention of an educational booklet. Whether the limited benefits of these treatments are worth the additional costs is open to question." New England Journal of Medicine 1998[8]

• Results After adjustment for base-line differences, the chiropractic group had less severe symptoms than the booklet group at four weeks... From study referenced above.
• For the treatment of low back and neck pain, the inclusion of a chiropractic benefit resulted in a reduction in the rates of surgery, advanced imaging, inpatient care, and plain-film radiographs. This effect was greater on a per-episode basis than on a per-patient basis. [9]Levine2112 05:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"In children with mild or moderate asthma, the addition of chiropractic spinal manipulation to usual medical care provided no benefit." New England Journal of Medicine 1998 [10]

• After 3 months of combining chiropractic SMT with optimal medical management for pediatric asthma, the children rated their quality of life substantially higher and their asthma severity substantially lower. These improvements were maintained at the 1-year follow-up assessment. There were no important changes in lung function or hyperresponsiveness at any time. The observed improvements are unlikely as a result of the specific effects of chiropractic SMT alone...[11]
• All three cases resulted in increased subjective and objective parameters and suggest the need for larger studies with appropriate methodology.[12]
• Patients afflicted with asthma may benefit from spinal manipulation in terms of symptoms, immunological capacity, and endocrine effects...[13]
• Direct chiropractic treatment (6 weeks) reduces salivary cortisol levels over the 14 week period.[14] Levine2112 05:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"Patients, physicians, and chiropractors should be aware of the risk of neurologic complications associated with chiropractic manipulation." Neurology 1996 [15]

• For proper perspective, the risks of chiropractic neck treatment should be compared to the risks of other treatments for similar conditions. For example, even the most conservative "conventional" treatment for neck and back pain, prescription of Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drugs (NSAIDs), may carry a significantly greater risk than manipulation. One study (16) found a 4/10,000 annual mortality rate for NSAID induced ulcers among patients treated for non-rheumatic conditions such as musculoskeletal pain and osteoarthritis; that extrapolates to 3,200 deaths in the US annually. [16] Levine2112 05:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

"Overall there is no evidence to suggest that spinal manipulation is effective in the treatment of primary and secondary dysmenorrhoea." Cochrane Database Syst Rev 2006 [17]

• Chiropractic manipulative therapy may offer an alternative therapeutic approach for PMS sufferers. [18]
• The (chiropractic) patient realized fewer episodes of (menstrual) pain as well as lower pain ratings during the treatment phase. [19]

"Our results suggest that adverse reactions to chiropractic care for neck pain are common" Spine 2005[20]

• Documented serious complications after manipulation of the cervical spine are very rare (1 in 3-4 million manipulations or fewer). This estimate is based on international studies of millions of chiropractic cervical adjustments from 1965 to the present day. The "one in a million" estimate is echoed in an extensive review of spinal manipulation performed by the RAND corporation... Levine2112 05:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

References as to allegations of pseudoscientific practices by chiropractors

"This is not to say... that chiropractic manipulation mightn't alleviate some cases of low back pain, for instance, but for reasons quite unrelated to the pseudoscientific theory used by chiropractors to justify the treatment" Beyerstein, 1996 [21]

To paraphrase Phiwum above, the list states that chiropractic has been alleged to be a pseudoscience. The citation given proves this is correct. The articles as to chiropractic's efficacy contradict many of the claims of its practicioners. I see no controversy at all. I will revert. --Dorado 05:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

So if I find an "expert" or notable site that alleges anything is a pseudoscience, I take it you will find no controversy when I add it. Please affirm this as I plan to start adding alleged pseudosciences soon. Levine2112 05:31, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Levine, I was just writing the below and cross-posted with your comment above. I think that the threshold for putting something on a list is lower than using categories -- basically, all one needs for a list such as this is a good source, whereas the cat requires something like general (popular or scientific) consensus and no significant opposing views ... cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 05:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Dorado, your arguments are excellent. Chiropractic does have pseudoscientific elements. However, as Levine2112 points out, it also has scientific elements: i.e., its claims of efficacy can be tested, are taken seriously enough by mainstream scientists to be subject to testing, and some RCT's show evidence of efficacy. (The situation is similar for some other alt-med fields; acupuncture is the one I'm most familiar with.) The question is how to handle this situation in the various namespaces per NPOV (and WP:V and WP:OR). In the article namespace, it's a no-brainer: just present sourced arguments for all sides. In terms of including chiropractic on a list of things that have been called pseudoscience by good sources, yes, that's also fine. But I think that including chiropractic in category:pseudoscience would be a very bad idea. WP:CG gives guidelines for applying NPOV to categories, and says:

Categories appear without annotations, so be careful of NPOV when creating or filling categories. Unless it is self-evident and uncontroversial that something belongs in a category, it should not be put into a category. ....

Whatever categories you add, make sure they do not implicitly violate the neutral point of view policy. If the nature of something is in dispute (like whether or not it's fictional or scientific or whatever), you may want to avoid labelling it or mark the categorization as disputed.

Basically, putting chiropractic in cat:pseudoscience endorses just one side of the argument, and is misleading to the reader because chiropractic also has scientific elements. Please see also Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people, which offers some useful caveats, and suggests using lists instead of categories in situations like this. Does that make sense? best regards, Jim Butler^(talk) 05:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jim Butler. Every pseudoscience has some scientific elements, including Scientology, Phrenology, and so on. I understand the point here is to mention notable pseudoscientific subjects. Chiropractic is mentioned by scientists, skeptics, the news etc in terms of its pseudoscientific nature. It is notable for its pseudscientific nature. This pseudoscientificness goes even to the core of the theories (which are testable and have been found to be unsupported). The research you have presented is original research and that is against Wikipedia rules. The reviews of all the research are given by people who can do those reviews (eg, scientists such as Beyerstein). They conclude that chiropractic is pseudoscientific. It is not your or our job to do original research. The reviews say it all. Which is why chiropractic is called pseudoscience or pseudoscientific by professors (eg Beyerstein), journalists, and anyone who uses scientific skepticism, such as consumer protection bodies, in order to identify pseudoscientific subjects. If you want to use an encyclopedia to find out about pseudoscientific subjects, chiropractic should be in the category. It is not just the article that will help. The whole discussion section of the chiropractic article is full of pseudsoscientific argument. So adding it to the category will give the reader a chance to understand even better. I also notice this is possible because this talk page has a small section here on chiropractic. It is also full of pseudoscientific argument. Certainly chiropractic should be in the category of pseudoscience. Notice also that innoculation is devoid of pseudoscientists and pseudoscientific argument. Cheers Librelevate 07:58, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Librelevate! (Cool user name there.) I'm stumped as to what could possibly by OR about anything I said above. I'm just citing the fact that scientists take chiro seriously enough to research it, and have found evidence supporting its use. category:pseudoscience says:

This category comprises articles pertaining to fields of endeavor or bodies of knowledge that are both claimed by their proponents to be supported by scientific principles and the scientific method, and alleged by their critics and the scientific community to be inconsistent with such principles and method. The term itself is contested by a number of different groups for a number of different reasons — see the main article for more information.

That last sentence doesn't in any way qualify the preceding one, which explicitly says "... alleged by ... the scientific community to be inconsistent with such principles and method". "The scientific community": that's a high threshold. Some scientists clearly believe chiro's claims are testable and have withstood certain tests. There isn't scientific consensus, IOW: there is legitimate scientific debate. So it's fine to put chiro on the list we're discussing, since all the list requires is a good source per WP:RS, and Beyerstein is clearly fine. But to put it in category:pseudoscience presents NPOV and WP:V problems. On NPOV, it sounds like you disagree with the guideline WP:CG, which discusses applying NPOV to categories. Can you clarify? On WP:V, are you really suggesting that a prominent critic like Beyerstein, or popular magazine articles, suffice to demonstrate popular or scientific consensus? I don't see how chiro can go in the cat without misleading the reader and presenting high NPOV and WP:V hurdles. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 23:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Hello Jim Butler. There are no hurdles to clear at all. The description of the pseudoscience category is not meant as a set of recommendations for inclusion. If you read the cat's discussion page, inclusion is based on many factors, but mostly that a reliable source states it to be pseudoscientific. The category pseudoscience is there to help readers browse subjects that have notably pseudoscientific aspects. There is a clear view that the core theory of chiropractic is pseudoscientific, the behaviour of chiropractic proponents is pseudoscientific, and similar to other alternative medicines chiropractic has other pseudoscientific elements and relations. Chiropractic is perfect for the pseudoscience category. Librelevate 08:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Again, chiro has pseudoscientific elements, but also scientific ones. Your comments continue to ignore my concerns about NPOV as expressed in WP:CG and WP:V (Carroll doesn't meet WP:RS for speaking for scientific community. Do other editors find these concerns trivial? --Jim Butler^(talk) 09:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Blinded study reveals that chriopractic is effective in relieving infantile colic.[22]

A randomized, double-blind clinical trial demonstrates that chiropractic was more beneficial than placebo in reducing pain and more beneficial than either placebo or muscle relaxants in reducing GIS. [23]

The science behind chiropractic goes on and on... Adding chiropractic to the pseudoscience list or category is effectively giving a Wikipedia user wrong information. Given that the U.S. courts proved that there was an active conspiracy by the American Medical Association to cover up chiropractic research and lie about chiropractic's effectiveness for decades in order to protect the financial interests of AMA (Wilk v. American Medical Association), is it not safe to assume that opinions such as Beyerstein's are tainted? Are we here to present misinformation? Even Robert Carroll (or Skeptic's Dictionary fame) has changed his tuned citing that there is scientific evidence supporting chiropractic and admiting that the AMA is responsible for chiropractic's labeling as pseudoscience. Carroll goes on to note that today, the American College of Surgeons has issued a position paper on chiropractic which sees the two professions as working together. "There is a growing body of scientific evidence that chiropractic is effective in the treatment of many lower back ailments and neck injuries. There is some evidence that chiropractic is effective for the treatment of certain kinds of headaches and other pains. The chiropractor is one of the few alternative health practitioners that medical insurance will generally cover."

So what do we do now? There is conflict within the skeptics' world and there is plenty of scientific evidence (research, control trials, blinded studies, etc.) supporting chiropractic. Additionally, it was proven and re-proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the all powerful AMA had engaged in an anti-trust conspriracy to supress chiropractic research for decades. I don't see how we can blindly put out misinformation because of something Beyerstein said 10 years ago. I'd like to also point out that Beyerstein made his claim just six years after the AMA got denied for an appeal by the U.S. Supreme Court. If you want to classify some of chiropractic's aspects (such as Vertebral Subluxation) as prescientific, I think that is fine. VS is as much as a working theory as atomics, genes and gravity. But to classify it as pseudoscience is just irresponsible and wrong. Levine2112 19:12, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112 18:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but this is ludicrous. The heading to the section says, "The following is a list of theories and fields of endeavor which some critics fault as failing to meet the standards of scientific practice." Beyerstein is a UCLA PhD qualified critic who has very strong credentials in relatiion to the scientific review of alternative therapies. The broader scepticism as to the scientific basis of chiropractic amongst many practitioners of conventional medecine is well known - see for example the recent outcry over the proposal to establish a school of chiropractic at Florida State University - together with the fact that no such school exists at any publicly funded university in the US. How is this not enough for the list? --JermomeSampson 21:45, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Even chiropractors admit that chiropractic has pseudoscientific aspects:

• Chiropractic: science and antiscience and pseudoscience side by side -- Joseph C. Keating, Jr, PhD

-- Fyslee 22:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The definition of the list has now changed to, "The following is a list of theories and fields of endeavor which some portion of the scientific community faults as failing to meet the norms and standards of scientific practice in one way or another." However, the references I and others have cited remain compelling in terms of the case for chirporactic's inclusion on the list. The citations are clearly from members of the scientific community, and go directly to whether the field of endeavor of chiropractic (and not merely vertical subluxation) meets the norms and standards of scientific practice - and they all say that, in many instances and as practiced by many practitioners, it doesn't. --Dorado 01:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It's like this. If there is a general consensus in the scientific community that an entire field or theory is pseudoscience and those are the only ones listed here, then we can say that this is a list which represents a consensus in the scientific community. If that was the case, you would be hard pressed to find a consensus that chiropractic is pseudoscientifc, and thus it wouldn't belong in this list. There is just far too much scientific research supporting it and far too much evidence of AMA conspiracies to supress this information.

However, if we are going to say that these fields and theories don't satisfy "some portion" of the scientific community, then I imagine you can include just about anything provided that you can cite that some (and any) portion of the scientific community feels this way. Dorado, I'm not sure what your expertise is with chiropractic. FYI, it is vertebral subluxations; not vertical subluxations. Verterbal refers to vertebrae which are the bones making up the segments of the spine. VS is included on this list right now. I don't support this, though given the current defintion of this list, it could certainly fit. I'm sure there is some portion of the scientifc community who incorrectly believe this to be true.

Either way, this list is very weak in its current machination. It just seems to be representing a specific opinion... the scientific skeptics opinion... which isn't neccessarily the scientific opinion. Therefore, it completely violates NPOV. I suggest allowing more fields and theories onto this list that might not neccessarily be cited from scientific skeptic websites or publications. Or you can slap a banner at the top of the list stating that this list may violate NPOV. The only other solution willbe deleting it.

I made this prediction some time ago, that as long this list exists to serve only the opinions of one group, there will never be rest. You will always have crusaders with differences of opinions. Pseudoscience is a perjorative label and should not be used if it is going to violate civility and NPOV. Levine2112 02:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Short of a survey conducted by a reliable scientist, there can be no way to prove consensus in the sci community. NPOV policy places science above pseudoscience. This is core NPOV policy. The reason for this is for the sake of explanation. NPOV policy is not designed to defend pseudoscientific subjects. We are here to explain pseudoscientific subjects and to say what scientists say about them. Explanation is the priority. Chiropractic has strong pseudoscientific elements. Its core theory is pseudoscientific. It deserves mention in the list. It also belongs in the pseudoscience category. I reiterate; we are here to explain, not defend. Readers want to compare pseudoscientific subjects. This helps explanation. It clarifies subjects. The study of pseudoscience is becoming all the more relevant, and all the more concern within the scientific community. Chiropractic is historically and currently pseudoscientific. Adding chiropractic to the list will help the reader. KrishnaVindaloo 03:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. However, chiropractic is not pseudoscientific. I have shown scienitific sources supporting this. You have given a couple of notable people's opinions that say otherwise. So I have notable sources that says it isn't and you have notbale sources that says it is. Here we are. This isn't about science vs. pseudoscience. This is about a difference in opinions. Since you are making the claim here that chiropractic is considered pseudoscientific by a significant amount of scientists, then the burden of proof lies with you. So far, we have seen three or four notable people who say chiropractic is rooted in pseudoscience, but that's it. I have pointed us to literally 300+ scientific studies supporting chiropractic. The courts have shown that the AMA has actively supressed chiropractic research for purely financial reasons and fear of competition. Now we are here to present the facts. And the fact is, no one has shown that a significant portion of scientists claim that chiropractic pseudoscientific. Therefore, chiropractic should not be part of this list. Levine2112 06:10, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112. Your alleged research constitutes OR (original research). It is against NPOV core policy. There are no reliable sources that review chiropractic and state that it does not have pseudoscientific elements. There are many reliable sources that place chiropractic as pseudoscientific. The level of pseudoscientific attributes in chiropractic are useful for the reader to compare with other pseudoscientific subjects. We are not here to determine if a subject is a pseudoscience. If a subject is considered pseudoscientific by a reliable source, it can be included with that citation. If there are pseudoscientific elements in a subject according to reliable sources and the subject is notable, then that subject belongs in the pseudoscience category for readers to compare with other pseudoscientific subjects. Console yourself with the fact that not all chiropractors are L.Ron Hubbard. If anything, the comparison will allow chiropractic some credibility to the average reader. All books on pseudoscience show the related subjects in a comparative light. That is how pseudoscience should be presented according to scientists. So that is how it should be presented according to NPOV policy. I notice on the chiropractic article there is a section for pseudoscientific elements. So why not focus on clarifying the scientifically credible aspects of chiropractic on the chiropractic article itself, instead of working your own original research into dismissing the scientific view that chiropractic is pseudoscientific. KrishnaVindaloo 06:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

How come when I cite a study from a notable source you consider it original research, but when you do the same it is fine? Hypocritical? The opposite of pseudoscience is science. You have presented people that say chiropractic is pseudoscince. I have presented people that say chiropractic is science. Levine2112 07:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Really Levine2112. You are going to have to do a lot better than that. We could have deep philosophical discussion and do bean-counting on various studies until the cows come home. It'll not get us anywhere. Pseudoscientific subjects must be explained according to how scientific thought has received them. Again, it is not at all restricted to whether an aspect is supported scientifically or not. There are many other factors, which are discussed in depth even in the case of chiropractic, for example the insistence on "it works" or the inclusion of adjunct new age treatments, the adherence to outdated pseudoscientific theory and so on. This can all be explained better in the article. As far as the list of pseudoscientific subjects goes, chiropractic is both notable and pseudoscientific. It is considered by reliable sources (who are the only people qualified to sift the research you have presented) to be pseudoscientific, and there are no credible sources refuting the view that pseudoscientific ideas and activities occur in chiropractic teaching, promotion, and practice. Its inclusion will help the reader. It will explain aspects of pseudoscience, and aspects of chiropractic, and will be helpful for readers to compare with other pseudoscientific ideas. KrishnaVindaloo 08:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Krishna, you are saying a lot but you are not adding anything other than a few notable people have said chiropractic is pseudoscience, therefore it must be. I have pointed to many more people and much more actual research that shows that chiropractic is highly scientific. What is wrong with the insitence on "it works". Don't MD insist that pharmaceuticals work? And you mention the inclusion of "adjunct new age treatment". Huh? Some chiropractors may include stuff like that (just as some MDs and DOs do), but they are not part of the discipline of chiropractic and you can't fault chiropractic for that. Doing so - as you have done - is a very weak argument. You're going to have to do better than that. You have made the claim, therefore you are going to have to present us with the undeniable support (not just a couple of chiro-bashers who probably had a vested interest in the Wilk v. AMA lawsuit or are only notable because they are presenting wild ideas that the majority of the community disagrees with). Levine2112 17:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey everybody! Hope I'm not intruding. Looks like you've got things under control, but her's some more input:) I'm not sure what everyone's perception of today's chiropractor is, but I'm pretty sure that most (somewhere in the 90%) of chiropractic's patient's are for musculoskeletal problems. You've seen science that backs up spinal mainpulation for these conditions. In other words, most chiropractors are practicing scientifically sound methodology. While chiropractic may have been pseudoscientific during the dark ages, that doesn't mean it hasn't progressed.

That is not to say that some aren't practicing safely(as well as some MDs), but the legal system tends to eventually take care of those. That is also not to say that chiropractors are not waiting for reliable science to justify what they empirically think they see in their practices. This is the same way medicine advances. When you factor in research efforts that are realistically only about 30 years old and funding that has been slim for a number of reason that need no apology, those that are intellectually honest with themselves realize that the chiropractic theory of vertebral subluxation is advancing, and adapting slowly. It still holds that there is an effect on the nervous system, though the mechanism may not be understood. When that science becomes available from reliable sources, whether it supports or refutes this contention, I assume they will practice according to the findings. If not, it could then be considered pseudoscience. Until then, it would be unscientific to make a judgement, lest ye be guilty of the same offense ye accuse. It may be prescience, but not pseudoscience. You would then have to include most of medicine as well. --Dematt 20:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Chiropractic currently satisfies the criteria for the list, as defined by the title and opening paragraph of the list: critics have faulted chiropractic "as failing to meet the norms and standards of scientific practice in one way or another". Further, the sources cited in this regard are robust and compelling in the context of the specific list criteria. It would be erroneous and misleading to exclude chiropractic from the list as it is currently defined. Of no relevance in this regard are selective citations as to efficacy, since considerations of efficacy do not form part of the criteria for the list. Nor, for that matter, do conspiracy theories, rhetorical claims as to the dyslogistic nature of the term "pseudoscience", or a subjective potted history of the chiropractic movement. --Dorado 04:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Anthroposophy

I'd like to question the inclusion of anthroposophy on this list as well. First of all, Carroll does not call it a pseudoscience, as this article currently claims. This is already ground enough to remove it from the list. But there is also a misunderstanding somewhere here:

In English, we generally use science in the narrow sense of natural science. In German there are Naturwissenschaften (natural sciences), Sozialwissenschaften (social sciences), Geisteswissenschaften (the humanities), Schöne Wissenschaften (belle lettres, literary criticism) and probably more uses of Wissenschaft, which literally means science. Its founder, Rudolf Steiner, called anthroposophy a Geisteswissenschaft, a part of what we call the humanities, not a Naturwissenschaft.

Note that Dilthey and Husserl, among others, strongly defended the use of the term science for subjects like history and literary criticism, emphasizing 1) that the methodological approach needs to be subject-appropriate, and 2) that these areas cannot be judged by the criteria of the natural sciences.Hgilbert 14:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Whilst I disagree with the rational above I don't think there is room in the list. Anthroposophy, also called spiritual science, is definately a pseudoscience as it presents itself as a science ut does not conform to the norms. However it is nowhere near as notable as the others on the list. I propose leaving it in the expanded list of fields which is linked to from the list. Jefffire 11:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

My apologies for starting a discussion which belongs elsewhere (but see de:Wissenschaft for a substantial list of other surprising areas that are called sciences in German!)

In any case, Wikipedia excludes original research; this is sufficient barrier in and of itself. Hgilbert 15:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This is a sticky point. Like Jeff, I have seen suggestions that at least some proponents of anthroposophy do consider this science (or scientific?); for example, look at categorizations wars over WP articles on Steiner-related topics! I don't have time to research this, but hope that some kind editor will do so and figure out how to stick in a clear and concise discussion of this issue (probably broader than anthroposophy alone). ---CH 02:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello all. This a very simple issue. If a reliable source states that a subject is pseudoscientific, and it is notable, then it can be mentioned. Just because some say it is not science, that doesn't negate the former view of it being pseudoscience. Cheers KrishnaVindaloo 06:41, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Agree that this approach is consistent with NPOV and verifiability. But the related problem of whether to put articles in Category:Pseudoscience is not so simple, since it's an all-or-nothing thing without any nuance indicating the possibility of serious disagreement. This issue has been debated on that article's talk page for two years and is still not resolved. Jim Butler^(talk) 01:50, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

That's right; it's a simple issue. No reliable source states that the subject in question is pseudoscientific; the source previously quoted, Carroll, does not say this.Hgilbert 14:55, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

The definition of science

I have been uneasy with what appears to be an appropriation of the word science vs. the approved and common usage of this term in the English language. So I checked the latter. The Oxford English Dictionary lists the following as primary definitions (I am omitting a few usages declared obsolete):

Science:

1. The state of fact of knowing; knowledge or congnizance of something specified or implied; also, with wider reference, knowledge (more or less extensive) as a personal attribute. (Now only theological and philosophical.)
2. Knowledge acquired by study; acquaintance with or mastery of any department of learning. Also (plural) (a person's) various kinds of knowledge. b) Trained skill
3. A particular branch of knowledge or study; a recognized department of learning. b) Contradistinguished from art....d)A craft, trade or occupation requiring trained skill. (obs.)
4. In a more restricted sense: A branch of study which is concerned either with a connected body of demonstrated truths or with observed facts systematically classified and more or less colligated by being brought under general laws, and which includes trustworthy methods for the discovery of new truth within its own domain.
5. The kind of knowledge or of intellectual activity of which the various sciences are examples....In modern use, chiefly: The sciences (in sense 4) as distinguished from other departments of learning; scientific doctrine or investigation.... b) In modern use, often treated synomymous with 'Natural and Physical Science,' and thus restricted to those branches of study that relate to the phenomena of the material universe and their laws, sometimes with implied exclusion of pure mathematics.

Much of the discussion on this talk page as well as the Pseudoscience article itself seem to presuppose that the only valid use of the word science is that corresponding to the OED's definition 4,5, or even 5b. Is chiropractics (I am taking a random example) a science? It is certainly knowledge acquired by study and/or a trained skill. Is it a natural science? I doubt it (but don't know a great deal about it). Can someone call it a science without running the danger of accusations of pseudoscience? By the above definitions, this should certainly be the case...as long as it is not used in a misleading sense.

I suggest that the article needs a rewrite to avoid trampling common usage of the English language. Hgilbert 19:49, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I've done a preliminary, gentle rewrite specifying the narrower meaning of science used here.Hgilbert 10:25, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure the Oxford dictionary can be used to define science in this matter. I'll dig up a scientifically accepted definition in a bit. Jefffire 12:24, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Hgilbert - that is a valid observation, however pseudoscience is psedo-"science(4)" (or possibly 5). The OED definition of pseudoscience itself says "...claims to be scientific but does not follow scientific method" or words to that effect, and clearly the scientific method is a part of definitions 4 and 5 only. ObsidianOrder 16:55, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

It appears there is a wide range of opinions on what science actually is, which is confusing the matter slightly. Jefffire 16:58, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. Yet this article presupposes that one of those definitions is the one everyone should be using. For example, Christian Science is a perfectly good example of a science according to the OED definition 1, knowledge as a personal attribute; note that this definition was once more general and is now restricted to theological and philosophical usages - as in, Christian Science. As long as they mean this definition and don't pretend to be an empirical science, which I'm pretty sure they don't, they are accurately describing their movement. Now, if you are a natural scientist (or even if you're not) and think that natural/empirical science is all science, you may not accurately understand what they are trying to say, but I suggest that the failure in communication lies with your limited comprehension of the range of English usage, not with the movement's false (pseudo-) claim to a scientific basis. Similarly with other areas; it is the false claim to an empirical/experimental basis that makes a pseudo-science, I would suggest, not the use of the word science in one of its other accepted meanings.

Somehow this distinction needs to be clearer in the article's text.Hgilbert 04:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Schoolkids do science at school, and seem to fulfil every characteristic of pseudoscience... yet they don't do pseudoscience. Comments? --Iantresman 17:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Heh, good point. It's been called "Lies to children" what we teach in school. Anyway should there be a mention of some of the other defintions of pseudoscience? Jefffire 13:59, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting Iantresman. Yes, schoolkids do "experiments" to test hypotheses and theories that are no longer hypothetical and theoretical, but rather quite well confirmed and the outcome already known (or at least I would hope the outcomes are already known by those responsible for designing and implementing such curricula). So schoolkids study science, as differentiated from studying others' knowledge (scientia) about the arts "ah yes, the science of the arts"), humanities (some parts of which are said to be social science, except for, e.g., political science which is mere ideographic study and speculative generalization such as reactionary-conservative-moderate-liberal-progressive, all march in lockstep now, left-right-left-right). Perhaps in high school we would elect to take "Basic Electronics", more a science than political science but not called a science anymore because its methods and outcomes are already well known. Yes, I'd say this is conceptually problematic.

The issue of pseudoscience is far simpler, even if debatable, inexact, perhaps undefinable in strict terms. I arrive on the marketplace and use the word science to attach extra credibility to what I'm about to say. "Everyone listen up: This is SCIENCE". Others, including compulsive skeptics, reasonably adept practitioners in science, and those familiar with scientific method generally, look at me and say, "OK, where's your research, publication, data, methodology, so we can get OUR experts to double-check this stuff." At the core, somewhere in that type of exchange in the marketplace of ideas and exchanges of money, gambits for social respect and political influence and such, is closer to where we find the real debate about what is pseudoscience. Don't know the answer, but I think that's closer to the question. ... Kenosis 15:01, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Another [perhaps] related thought to Iantresman's excellent insight: Someone on another talk page recently referred to boxing as the "sweet science" ([24]). Now there's an analytical challenge-- why is it called "sweet", and why call it "science". Yet no one thus far seems determined to put that pursuit on the list of fields often accused of being pseudosceince. Sure, it would be doubtful and probably unverifiable for one to say it's "often accused", but why is it not often accused of being pseudoscience?. ... Kenosis 04:10, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Citations that do not support the entry

In the list of pseudoscientific fields, I found quite a few more citations of Carroll's work that do not support the inclusion of the entry. Some of these are radically far from a condemnation of the field as pseudoscientific, others are critical but do not give evidence for such an inclusion.

I have removed the citations; when the citation was the only evidence given, I have removed the entry. Please replace any entries for which other evidence can be given, or for which my (fairly swift) perusal of the Skeptic's Dictionary entries missed anything damning. (I did a search for the term pseudo and read over the articles to see if the equivalent in evidence was there, but erred on the side of caution; we are not researching the topic but summing up previous research).

The citations have been replaced; they need checking, for those that I took out simply do not support what they are claimed to support.Hgilbert 02:08, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed these citations again, as they are simply inaccurate.

I wonder about the fields that are listed here without any attribution of source. Since the list heading says that critics have called these pseudoscientific, if no such critics can be found the fields should be deleted from the list. If we agree on this - as I hope we could - we should then set a deadline for 'discovery of evidence'.Hgilbert 00:58, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

I suggest that any fields still listed without citation on July 1 simply be struck. We can move them to the talk page for further research; if a citation later turns up, they can be put back. Some seem obviously erroneously listed, such as quantum mysticism, which is an entirely respectable interpretation of quantum mechanics. I am tempted to go ahead and delete this already; any thoughts?Hgilbert 09:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

ROFL. "Quantum mysticism" is patently pseudoscience. Stop trying to subvert the NPOV policy because it doesn't fit your POV (that applies to others as well). — Dunc|☺ 09:26, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

To whom is quantum mysticism patently pseudoscience? The article needs to cite the appropriate authority. The "no original research" policy says that it must be someone citable or the allegation does not belong in the encyclopedia. The NPOV policy does not mean everyone can enter whatever they feel like; it means all reasonably supported views can be included.

Incidentally, as has been pointed out before, it is this list that subverts the NPOV policy; only allegations of pseudoscience, not however supporters of the fields in question (John Wheeler is a supporter of quantum mysticism, for example) are given voice.Hgilbert 09:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Double ROFL. Shit, are you going to try to say that anything with the word mysticism in the title is not pseudoscience? That's just too funny. As for Wheeler, two things: one, you're going to need to provide a cite that he supports this slop (no doubt in his doddering old age, if so); and two, Sir Isaac Newton supported alchemy, which merely proves that great thinkers can be idiots at times. •Jim62sch• 00:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, you've described the idea better than I could. Of course mysticism in general is not pseudoscience. Perhaps you'd like to look up the definition of pseudoscience. As for quantum mysticism specifically, well, it's not up to us to decide if it is or isn't pseudoscience; after all, we're not doing research here. We've accepted the principle that any one authority's statement that a field is pseudoscience is sufficient to include it as a field in our thorough lists, however. If we cast our net so wide, we'll have to accept what fish come in. Now, if we want to talk about revising this principle to something more sensible, then let's apply a better rule to both lists.

How's this for a quote:

"Having studied the atom, I tell you that there is no matter as such [only force]....we must assume that behind this force is a conscious, intelligent mind or spirit. This is the very origin of matter." Max Planck, Florence lectureHgilbert 02:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscientific fields

The text says that Williams Encylopedia of Pseudoscience, includes Big Bang theory, continental drift and Pasteur's germ theory. Yet these fields are excluded from the list. If Williams is a credible enough source to include some entries, then his credibility is good enough to include all others. Fact selection does not conform to NPOV.

What is clear, is that there is a tremendous amount of subjectivity in defining Pseudoscience. Stephen Hawkins himself says that "Cosmology was thought of as pseudoscience"[25], and others have said that "cosmology had degraded into a state of pseudoscience"[26] --Iantresman 17:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd check in Williams to make sure of the context. If it is parallel to the other entries, then they certainly could be added; the list is simply those items that Williams, chiefly, and Carroll in a few cases, have called pseudoscience, so all such may be included.

By the way, I've tried to figure out who Williams is...trained scientist, journalist, or what ... and can't discover any info about him. Anybody know about this?Hgilbert 01:01, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Williams (et al) as a credible source

There has been some conjecture over Williams 2000 as a source. This can clear it up. Williams is a professor of science at the Pen State University and a fellow of the Universith of Leeds (England). The co-writers are Dr Carl Mitcham, Professor of Philosophy of Science, Dr Daniel Conway professor of neuroscience, Dr Lisle Dalton, Dr Alex Dolby, Dr Shannon Duval, Dr John Mcmillan, Dr J Gordon Melton, Dr Mearcello Truzzi. They are all professors. The list also includes Terry ONiel, Kenneth Shepherd, Steven Utley, Jeff Frazier and Honour Farrel. They are all science experts of some kind. Its a very solid source. Lots of corroboration, and a whole lot of knowledge. KrishnaVindaloo 09:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Use of Fact templates

Most of the Fact templates (those which read "citation needed") used in this article are unnecessary. For example, there's fifteen or so in the "Identifying pseudoscience" section alone. This is overkill. Those fifteen will likely be satisfied with by one or two cites in the end (which I may be able to add), so there's a level of overkill that is bounding on the surreal. It harms the article and serves no purpose. Regular editors of this article to find a better way remind contributors to comply with WP:V than just adding a fact template to every assertion or statement of fact. FeloniousMonk 16:55, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

While one or two references at the end of the article may provide the citations required, it is not always obvious which statement are verified. I think the article is harmed if such citations are not included. I think the tags provides a useful reminder as to which statements need verifying, and for the sake of a couple of weeks research, will result in a much improved article. --Iantresman 17:25, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

An article which claims to take the high ground of empirical, verifiable science will of course be expected to provide clear evidence of its statements and categorizations. It would be a pity if some objective reviewer would classify this article itself as pseudoscientific due to its unproven claims! Hgilbert 02:34, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I am the editor to whom any applicable blame belongs for recently placing those templates. They amount to a request to advance this article to a yet more developed level of verifiability (WP:VER). I am by no means adamant about them, but I surmised that in a controversial article such as this, these individual templates allowed each to be cited whenever editors had a chance to dig into the literature and cite accordingly. I do recognize the approach is a bit unconventional in WP to date. My opinion is that with a bit of patience, they can be cited one or two at a time, and what is left can either be weeded out or discussed point-by-point among the editors as to the merits of the particular "characteristic". So I'm OK with it either way. But this approach is one possible way to help selectively determine what is original research (WP:OR) and what isn't, rather than necessarily subjecting the whole section to unnecessary controversy. ... Kenosis 03:45, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi folks. I'm new. I noticed this subject needs a lot more citations to keep it solid. I've got quite a few, and will add as soon as I can. Mindsight 05:40, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Paul Feyerabend

I think we are giving this gentelman undue weight in the article at present. Simply put his idea's, whilst interesting, haven't really had much impact on the subject. Coupled with the uncritical writing of the section, I think a rewrite is in order. Jefffire 08:47, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

This article can indeed be further improved so as to be yet more informative, and yet more accurate without getting unnecessarily obscure. Right now Feyerabend is mentioned in two places, which in itself I have no problem with. In the "introduction" Popper is mentioned followed by Feyerabend-- quite reasonable as they represent the two extremes of advocacy (leaving out extreme scientism in the sense of "science" being limited to natural science or "hard science"). Conspicuously absent are mention of the alternate views of Kuhn, Thagard and Lacatos' descriptions of scientific method, though on the whole I think the article's content is fairly balanced, even if in need of citations for the list of "characterisics" and for some of the "fields often accused". If you diagram the areas of wide agreement on what is scientific method, it tends to look somewhat like a sunflower, with an identifiable core of agreement and a bunch of petals. Add or remove a few petals and it still looks like a sunflower. Problem for us, I think, is how to effectively explain that to the reader, giving credence to both sides of the debate in a reasonably compact summary.

As of now, the last paragraph of "Problem of demarcation and criticisms..." reads as follows:

• "As mentioned above in this article, Paul Feyerabend argued that clear distinctions between science and non-science or pseudoscience are not desirable. In Against Method, arguing from a perspective of sociology of science, Feyerabend argued that whatever rules science may establish for itself, successful science has always been done in violation of it."
• The footnote reads: "For a further perspective on Feyerabend from within the scientific community, see, e.g., Gauch (2003), op cit at p.4:"Scientists typically find those objections either silly or aggravating, so rather few engage such controversies or bother to contribute in a sophisticated and influential manner. But in the humanities, those deep critiques of rationality are currently quite influential."

That seems fairly objective to me, though I'm sure it can be improved. ... Kenosis 13:25, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Alleged pseudoscientific fields

• I changed the subhead title to this shorter version, which pretty much sums up the section
• I removed the link to "List of alternative, speculative, and disputed theories", because there is no implied connection.
• I removed the commented text implying that consensus must be met before adding fields to the list; the only requirement is a verifiable citation --Iantresman 21:27, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I removed cosmology from the list of alleged pseudosciences. The quote was taken out of context. It is true that there were (and still are) people who study cosmology who advocate pseudoscience. That doesn't make the study of cosmology in-and-of-itself pseudoscience. Ironically, the quote by Hawkins was making this very point. --ScienceApologist 15:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

The quote does say that Cosmology was thought of as pseudoscience, past tense. But I think you make a more import point... subjects in themselve are not pseudoscience, only some people who make certain claims about them --Iantresman 18:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't think he means "pseudoscience" in the strict sense. I think me means that it was full of speculation. But it was being studied by bona fide scientists, but none of them were claiming that their theory was correct, counter to evidence. Bubba73 (talk), 23:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I've added radionics since this is already classed as a pseudoscience in Wikipedia. --TimVickers 14:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Cosmology as pseudoscience

I've restored "cosmology" to the list of alleged pseudoscientific fields, on the ground that Stephen Hawkins has specified that he considers it once was pseudoscience. There is no doubt that Hawkins is an expert in the field, and the source is verifiable. Of course this doesn't mean that cosmology really is pseudoscience, but the list is not about that. --Iantresman 15:24, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I've also added the Big Bang, Continental Drift and Pasteur's Germ theory, as Williams also lists these subjects as pseudoscience. Williams is credible enough for all the other fields, so he must be credible enough source for these. --Iantresman 15:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

They were once pseudoscientific (in some views) but are no-longer. The list needs to be up to date. Jefffire 16:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

In the article, there is a separate list for fields once considered pseudoscientific but now accepted; I have added the above subjects to this list. Please keep the two straight; the subject is entangled enough.Hgilbert 16:48, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to Williams, so we can see whether he still feels that the Big Bang theory is pseudoscience? If he does, then it should go into the current list --Iantresman 17:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hgilbert appears to have copy. I personally would find it beneficial to have page numbers included in the citations to the Encyclopedia, if possible. ... Kenosis 18:03, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I have to confess I have hitherto trusted the surely absolutely dependable (!) editors of this page who have quoted him, but last night I finally ordered a copy of my own and will attempt to check these references (and put page numbers in where they are now missing). I have tracked down the person who added the existing references -Bubba73; this editor must have a copy of Williams (I would hope): Hgilbert 19:39, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I have a copy of the book by Williams. There is an entry for Big Bang, mostly general stuff. It does say "Although scientists are fairly certain that the universe was created by the explosion of some sort of singularity, they are unable to determine what might have caused it." (This was written in 2000 or earlier, things have changed somewhat since then.) It goes on to say "Many scientists acknolege this problem by saying that time itself began at the big bang." I don't see anything that calls the Big Bang pseudoscience.

Williams is the general editor. It says that he was formerly visiting professor in the Dept of Science, Technology, and Society at Penn State Univ and is a life fellow of Leeds Univ. Besides him, there are four advisors (Jerome Clark and Marcello Truzzi are the only names I recognize) and contributors listed and thirteen contributors (including Williams)

Any questions aout the book? Bubba73 (talk), 20:34, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

PS, I don't think that the Big Bang or Continental Drift were ever considered pseudoscience. At the CD article, you can see that it was taken up seriously in several conferences, etc. It wasn't considered proven, but it wasn't considered pseudoscience. Neither was the Big Bang. It was competing with the Steady State theory, but never considered pseudoscience. Both were proto-sciences at one time but never pseudoscience. I don't know the history of the germ theory, but it may be similar. Bubba73 (talk), 20:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Does William's book give a categorical affirmation that he considers some of his entries to be pseudoscience? Perhaps we are to infer that all entries are in the book because they're considered pseudoscience, or perhaps he uses stronger language for some entries than others. I think we need at least a statement in his introduction to say that "all entries are considerd pseudoscience", or only include those entries where is is specific. Otherwise we'll have to remove Big Bang, etc --Iantresman 21:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that we have to check Williams' terminology carefully. But plate tectonics and continental drift theory were certainly strongly rejected and even mocked by he scientific community of Wegener's time; see this brief summary or The Rejection of Continental Drift: Theory and Method in American Earth Science, Naomi Oreskes, Oxford University Press, New York, 420 p., 1999, as well as this anecdotal evidence.Hgilbert 21:15, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Plate techtonics was never rejected. Plate techtonics is the theory which replaced Wegener's theory of continental drift, and was accepted quickly after the evidence supporting it came in. Bubba73 (talk), 21:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Just because theories are rejected, or slow to take up, does not make the pseudoscience --Iantresman 00:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Scientific theories once widely criticized as pseudoscience

I haven't looked at this article in a long time, but this section needs a lot of work.

1. Big Bang theory. There were two competing theories, Big Bang and Steady State. I don't think BB was widely criticized, it was only by supporters of SS. A reference to Williams is given, and he certainly doesn't say that it was considered pseudoscience.

2. Calculus of infinitesimals. Newton originated this whereas Libinitz (sp?) introduced the epsilon-delta methods. Libinitz's methods were proved to be rigorous whereas Newton's infinitesimals were not (at the time). So Libinitz's formulation of Calculus was used. Infinitesimals were made rigorous much later, late 1800s I think.

3. Cantor's transfinite numbers - not widely criticized, mainly only by Dedekind, I think it was.

4. Cosmology - it was speculative, but I don't think it fits what we normally think of as pseudoscience.

5. non-euclidean geometry - I don't know of any way this could have been considered pseudoscientific. People had assumed that Euclidean geometry was correct, but shortly after non-Euclidean geometry was proposed it was shown to be valid too.

6. Plate techtonics was never considered to be pseudoscientific, just unproven. Continental drift wasn't considered to be pseudoscience, it just has never been accepted.

7. Quantum Mechanics - never widely considered pseudoscience. It always had experimental backing. [unsigned by Bubba73, 23:46 24 June 2006]

This section was just added within the last day or so. ... Kenosis 23:54, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

This section is now removed. It was based almost wholly on the work of one controversial comprendium by Williams and wasn't exhaustive so does not belong in the article. --ScienceApologist 00:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It's easy for us to give a reason why these subjects do not belong, but our opnions do not count. What is more important is whether Williams provides a justifications; we already consider him to be a credible source. If he doesn't then the subject do not below.

However, Cosmology is verifiably cited by Stephen Hawkins as a subject that he considered was once pseudoscience, and that fact should be placed somewhere in the article. --Iantresman 00:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think it is clear that he doesn't mean that Cosmology was considered pseudoscientific the way ESP or dowsing is. There were a lot of speculations then, as there are now. For instance, String theory is specuative but not pseudoscientific. Years ago people were proposing theories of parallel universes, etc. Proposing a cosmological theory that involves parallel universes is not pseudoscientific. Saying that you have been to a parallel universe without providing any evidence is pseudoscientific. We don't know if string theory is correct or not. We don't know whether there are parallel universes or not. We may never know. But proposing them as theories is certainly not pseudoscience. Bubba73 (talk), 01:16, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Whoa!! The whole main list of pseudosciences is based chiefly on the work of that same compendium. If the compendium is so controversial, that list really doesn't belong here. Either Williams is a credible source or he isn't.

In addition, many of the items in the new section have citations to sources other than Williams. At most, we could add notes onto these.

If Hawkings says that cosmology was once considered a pseudoscience, then this should definitely be included. I suggest that we must be modest and try to quote what people said, not what we are sure they must have meant. (This last in reference to Bubba73's comments about cosmology.) Hgilbert 01:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm the one that added references to most of the things. Several months ago there was a debate about whether the list should stay or go, and if there were references. I sat down with several books: "The Skeptics Dictionary", "The Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience" (Williams), Randi's "Flim-Flam" and "Encyclopedia of claims ...", Martin Gardner's "Science Good Bad and Bogus" and a couple more of his, Sagan's "Candle...", Asimov's "The Roving Mind", "A Skeptics handbook of parapsychology", "Pseudoscience and the paranormal", and maybe some other books. The first two books I named each had most of these things, so I listed them with the page numbers. I thought that would be enough, so I didn't go through the other books. (I could, though). Not everything in Williams is pseudoscience, e.g. black holes, big bang, etc. I don't know why it is that way, but many people worked on the book. So why is the Big Bang listed in the book (although it doesn't say it is pseudoscience), yet the rival Steady State theory isn't? Neither one was pseudoscience, and the Steady State theory never had any supporting data.

The Big Bang (BB) isn't and never was pseudoscience, as we understand the term. Let X be a pseudoscience:

BB: when proposed, was given as a possibility, not claimed to be true.

X: claimed to be true.

BB: Fit existing knowledge.

X: Contrary to existing knowledge.

BB: No negative evidence. (Old evidence fits with it, but that is "ad hoc".)

X: plenty of negative evidence, no positive evidence.

BB: after proposed, all new data supports it.

X: after proposed, no new data supports it.

I think the quote from Hawking can be left in if it is clear that he is not talking about pseudoscience as we understand it. Bubba73 (talk), 15:37, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

It was stated above that this section had been removed. It is still there and getting worse. The issue of the tides - this was a legitimate scientific issue. Just because one scientist questions another scientist, that doesn't mean that he is calling his work "pseudoscientific". In fact, it is very rare. This is the normal scientific process/method at work. I think this section is both factually wrong, and putting these things in there are POV. Bubba73 (talk), 18:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Please look carefully at the citations. Galileo didn't merely dispute the science, he called the suggestion of action at a distance "occult nonsense". If that's not a 17th century version of "pseudoscience", I don't know what is.

If we are allowing anybody's opinion that something is pseudoscience to justify the field's inclusion in a list of contemporary allegations, we should be consistent in allowing this in a list of past allegations. In addition, I suggest that the persons chiefly cited for the contemporary list, Williams and Carroll, have rather less scientific standing than Galileo. Hgilbert 19:53, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, the actual term pseudoscience is a quite modern one, but I have tried to only include ideas which were considered the equivalent ("occult nonsense" is pretty good, don't you agree?) in their time; not just wrong, but based upon absolutely nonsensical, fundamentally unscientific ideas like action at a distance, mysterious fields, rocks falling from the sky and so on. I think the key is that people then as now accused these ideas of being unscientific, not just wrong scientific theories. I think the citations support this.

Some out there might think that I am a true believer in this stuff. Not at all: I doubt extremely strongly that UFOs really exist, for example, and probably no arguments under heaven could convince me that they do, unless they downright beamed me up. Nevertheless, I see no structural or essential difference between my skepticism here and that of the French Academy of Sciences to the idea that rocks (we call them meteorites now) fall randomly from the sky. They're both totally improbable ideas; only empirical experience could convince anybody that either is true. So why is the one pseudoscience and the other not? I think UFOs are not pseudoscientific, just delusions and illusions (probably...I hope no aliens are reading this and see an opportunity to convince me ;) ). In any case, I am chiefly concerned here that we as editors are are times applying the term without sufficient justification, and without a NPOV balance of opinion weighing in on topics where there is genuinely evidence on both sides. Hgilbert 02:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Big difference between reports of flying objects which lack explanation (UFOs,) versus claims of "alien spacecraft!"--Wjbeaty 03:12, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's an attempt to shed light. There are many theories/discoveries which were resisted for years before being accepted, mostly on grounds of weak evidence, but not always. There are fewer which were not just resisted, but totally rejected and regarded as wrong, and where the rejection turned out to be based error or on closed-mindedness. There are even fewer which not only were rejected, but where the ideas and their supporters were subject to outright scorn, ridicule, and emotional attack. Of these, perhaps a small number were actually labeled "pseudoscience" (and not just called "pathological science," such as "n-rays" and polywater.) So, which ones were not only resisted, rejected, and ridiculed, but were though to be pseudoscience? For example, Relativity and QM were resisted, and the "Big Bang" theory was certainly rejected and ridiculed by the astronomy community (the very term "big bang" was a cynical label applied by Fred Hoyle.) But these were not well-known pseudosciences which later were vindicated. I only know of a few: until the 1970s, the mind-body connection in medicine was seen as disreputable witch-doctor stuff. Reports of meteorites and of ball-lightning were long regarded as peasant superstition. The cure for smallpox was not discovered by Jenner, instead Jenner tested a long-known folk medicine cure: innoculation (explained in WIB Beveridge "Art of Sci. Invstg.") And both flying machines and space travel were reviled as complete fantasy. "Men show their character in nothing more clearly than by what they think laughable." -J. W. Goethe --Wjbeaty 02:43, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

But, but, if we determine that some now accepted matters were once considered pseudoscience that means we can't be REALLY sure about anything!! wE GON EXPLOOD!! It means we have to leave and admit to at least a tiny option that something we don't understand might end up being true. And great if it does. BUT THEN WHAT IF IT DOESN'T!??! WE'RE FUCKED!! SOMEONE FUCKED US!!! HAD A GOOD LAUGH!! AND THEN WE DON'T HAVE OFSPRING AND ANIMALS EAT US PIECE BY PIECE WHILE WE WANDER THE SHADOWS OF SOCIETY BEING BEATEN BY CHILDREN!!!! Is that a price you're willing to pay?!?!???? Well, you might be, but me and Bubba aren't!! --stlolth@net.hr

Hi WJ. I like the range of subjects you have presented. Well I think this is simple. I wouldn't assume closed mindedness as a default. Good faith may well be applied to scientists also. Some subjects are considered pseudoscience simply due to lack of evidence for efficacy or effect. Characteristics of pseudoscience go much further than that and subjects are mostly considered pseudosciences due to the behaviour of the proponents (reluctance to test, mantra of holism, emphasis on confirmation rather than refutation etc). So in this case it would be useful to know the reasons for why a subject is considered pseudoscientific. Its simply a matter of good research. KrishnaVindaloo 03:27, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I actually think this is a valuable "third test" for the label pseudoscience. First test, someone citable must call a field pseudoscience or the equivalent ("unscientific balderdash" might be reasonably assumed to be the equivalent). Second test, there must be scientific unanimity about the subject; minimal cognitive dissonance - otherwise a more differentiated approach is required, i.e. in the article about the field, "J.J. said it is balderdash, whereas K.K. sees it as an unproven but potentially valuable insight." Third test: there must be methodological weaknesses (proponents refusal to test objectively or to recognize the results of these tests, un-disprovable hypotheses, etc.)

In fact, I'm so pleased with these three tests that I'm copying this over to Category Talk:Pseudoscience - though I have principled doubts about the category Hgilbert 11:49, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily on the same line of thought, but we should really remove the mathematical entries on this list. There's a clear distinction between Math and Science, so math-based theories can never be pseudoscience (instead, they fall under Pseudomathematics). ---DrLeebot 16:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

They may be pseudomathematics, but the mathematical items on the list aren't pseudomathematics either. Bubba73 (talk), 21:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

More examples (I'll be on the lookout for cites.) But some of these were only ignored by the scientific community and subjected to hostility and scorn. That's different than being "labeled as pseudoscience."

1. Before the 1970s, the medical community saw all body/mind interactions as pure magic and ridiculous superstition. Even the quite obvious placebo effect was only tolerated grudgingly and with great suspicion. Today it's all acceptable Neuroimmunology

2. String theory: in "Feynman's Rainbow," the author points out that string theorists had "failed," and were the butt of jokes, considered loopy, and thought to be hurting Caltech's reputation. They would have removed if not for secret funding by Murray Gell-Mann.

3. Hypnosis and the psychology of suggestion was debunked as part of Mesmer's animal magnetism, then rejected for many decades.

4. Robert Goddard's work on spacecrafts was rejected as science fiction fantasy

5. Zwicky's 1933 work on Dark Matter in stellar clusters was rejected, and Zwicky widely ridiculed as "crazy Fritz"

6. Einstein & relativity. Contrary to popular belief, Relativity fought an uphill battle in Europe. "One Hundred Against Einstein"

7. Barbara McClintlock's "jumping genes" was ridiculed and ignored for decades.

8. L. Galvani's discovery of bioelectric effects. "They call me the frog's dancing master."

9. Black Hole theory in 1930, S. Chandra was discredited and hounded out of Cambridge by Eddington and his supporters

10. Ben Franklin's early letters on pos/neg electricity were read before the Royal Society to howls of laughter. Only later was he taken seriously (for Sentry-box and kite experiment)

11. J H van't Hoff ridiculed for proposing that molecules had definite 3D structure.

12. Nottebohm's discovery that bird's brains do create new neurons. The biology community found this laughable, and ignored him. Later they essentially said that, well, maybe birds brains do create new neurons, but it doesn't happen in mammals. Later they said, well, it happens in mammals, but it doesn't happen in primates! Only over several decades Nottebohm prevailed. However, he still is considered an embarassment for turning up such a huge flaw in science ...for example, in Neurogenesis, Nottebohm is not mentioned, nor is his work in the references, yet Nottebohm essentially founded the entire field! (This would be like writing an extensive description of Relativity but while very carefully avoiding any mention of Einstein.)

Perhaps this should split off into a separate article. Yet another "list of" page. --Wjbeaty 08:58, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

references

I'm trying to look up some references where they are requested (I just added one). I saw that a large number of references were commented out - presumably because they are not referenced in the text. I saw some items there that could be listed as "further reading". Bubba73 (talk), 17:02, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Template disparity

I noticed that there is a different template being used for the two lists; one NPOV, one totally disputed, yet the two are equally well documented. We should match templates; either both should be totally disputed or both NPOV. Which do people prefer?Hgilbert 18:43, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

General Remarks on the Categories

The generally accepted scientific method involving repeatability, prediction etc. seems predicated on the notion that there is a material objective reality "out there" and independent of mental influence (since accepted experimental methods usually do not allow for the possibilities of such influences on the part of the testers, subjects etc). Consequently, any world view which postulates mental influence on matter seems disadvantaged from the start--it is playing uphill and against the wind for the whole game! Any comments? Preferably not relating to quantum theory :-)81.108.35.99 10:21, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sources

A number of sources have been inserted in the "fields termed pseudoscience" section with only a short citation form. (Sarich & Miele 2005), (Hyman 1999:34-43; Kenny et al. 1988:698-704), and (Alexander et al., Select Press; 1st edition, 2005) popped out, but I may have missed one. These need proper, full citations in the references section. Deleuze 14:24, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Hm, upon further consideration, a couple of those seem to be commented out of the main text - any reason why? Deleuze 14:26, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

"Why Eugenics should be removed from the list of pseudosciences and why Critical race theory should be included"

I argue for the removal of Eugenics from the list because Eugenics, put simply, is not a pseudoscience. In order for it to qualify as such it would need to be in the business of making unscientific claims - as it happens it does not. The most common manifestation of Eugenics is simply selective breeding involving Humans. When these techniques are applied to animals, with the aim off augmenting desirable physiological or psychological traits we call it Domestication (see Lynn 2001 and Pigliucci 2002), so there is nothing remotely pseudoscientific about the practice or claims of Eugenics. The real issue surrounding Eugenics is one of ethics, the debate in bioethics circles tends to be focussed on whether Eugenics is ever justifiable from a moral standpoint (eg. is using embryo selection to eliminate a genetic disease from a family moral/ethical or not). The fact that Eugenics is ethically tendentious does not make it scientifically so. I argue for the inclusion of Critical race theory because it, unlike Eugenics, is based on bad science, bad philosophy and bad statistics, and is highly ideological as opposed to objective in nature. Overwhelming numbers of Biologists believe the central claim of the Critical race theorists - namely that racial variations are not of a genetic nature but are the result of social conditioning - to be baseless (84% according to the most recent survey - see Lieberman et al 1985). The statistics first employed by Lewontin to suggest that racial genetic variation sums up to being less than individual variation have been thoroughly debunked (see Edwards 2003), indeed this is now known as Lewontin's Fallacy. Even Richard Dawkins has publically awknowledged the taxanomic validity of race and has abmonished the Critical race theorists (see Dawkins 2005). I cite Sarich & Miele's 2004 book - Race: The Reality of Human Differences - as evidence off the pseudoscientific nature of Critical race theory as this is essentially the conclusion that they come to after a very fair analysis of both sides to the argument.

From a scientific point of view this is indeed correct. The implementation of eugenics was pseudoscientifical, but the theory isn't. Jefffire 14:49, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

From the secion you are trying to edit: "Note that entries that appear below may not actually be pseudoscience, but that they have been cited as being allegedly pseudoscience." This is why we rely on secondary sources for claims. Provide a reliable source that specifically says critical race theory is a pseudoscience, and feel free to add it. Also, your statistical arguments are misleading. While only 16% of biologists disagreed that "there are biological races in the species Homo sapiens," nearly half of the anthropologists questioned disagreed. Also, they were not asked specifically if they agreed with a taxonomic or a population conception of it.

As an aside, I must admit to being amused by the claim that CRT is ideological but eugenics is not...a pretty ominous combination of edits, if you ask me ;) Deleuze 14:54, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll take a moment to elaborate on my points before I get taken for something that I am not. It is hypothetically possible to apply selective breeding to humans to select for heritable traits, but it would be completely unethical and the human cost would be immense. Jefffire 14:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I don't think that's in question. That is not the entirety of what eugenics is, however. Deleuze 15:08, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Yea, I agree about Eugenics not being pseudoscience per se. Eugenics is just selective breeding of humans. There is nothing pseudoscientific about selective breeding. That says nothing about the moral question--which is pretty universally agreed upon when it comes to humans: i.e. that its not right).

I noticed this a long time ago, but neglected to say anything because I didn't want to get embroiled in a emotional argument. Obviously eugenics is immoral that doesn't mean it is pseudoscience. And the fact that eugenics proponents have used pseudoscience to justify it doesn't really make it pseudoscience either.

CRT on the other hand I don't know much about. I know there are good arguments to say that "race" is a muddled concept that really doesn't have much meaning except for its sociological effects. But I'm not sure thats what CRT is saying. Brentt 03:23, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Historically, eugenics has comprised much more than the basic statement that "selective breeding of humans is possible." That is a trivial statement. It has made use of pseudoscientific notions of racial stocks and body politics, and arcane ways of determining the fitness of individuals or races. They were even poor scientists in their own ideological pursuit of what happened to be the truth - even though Lamarckian genetics has been discredited, eugenists didn't support Mendelian genetics because of the research. They supported it because it was convenient. It's a rather interesting history, actually. Deleuze 03:50, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Setting the bar

There's a significant issue with where the bar for inclusion as pseudoscience has been set for this article, and it's reflected in the section title "Fields termed pseudoscience by one or more critics."

Setting the bar at "one or more critics" directly conflicts with WP:NPOV#Undue_weight which says "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all. We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view, and views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute." I know you're all a smart bunch here and immediately see the issue: "Fields termed pseudoscience by one or more critics." vs "Articles that compare views need not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all." This will need to change in the article, making the question "Where to set the bar"?

Again, WP:NPOV provides the answer: The WP:NPOV policy has a specific clause dealing with pseudoscience, NPOV: Pseudoscience which states "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." So the bar for what is to be included as pseudoscience in this article is the scientific community's opinion, not one or more critics. I'm changing the section title to reflect this and subjects included here not supported cites that reflect a significant opinion within the scientific community should be removed until proper sources and cites are provided. FeloniousMonk 03:24, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

• I think we have a problem in that the two chiefly cited sources in this section, Carroll and Williams, are not the scientifc community. Even a source from a scientist published in a peer-reviewed journal, does not represent the view of the scientific communitity.
• See the WP:NPOV section "Attributing and substantiating biased statements"[27] where blanket statement involving "many people" and presumably the unsubstantiated "scietific communitiy" are considered weasel words, and that "By attributing the claim to a known authority..." is the way to go.
• We already attribute to Carroll and Williams, but they are not the scientific community. --Iantresman 07:25, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

There are plenty of other sources, the trouble is that they are not being sought out. Sagan could be quite useful here. Jefffire 12:26, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Either way, there is no "scientific community" that speaks with one voice. And were Sagan's views peer-reviewed? --Iantresman 13:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Please. When a viewpoint is repeated by a significant number of individual scientists, or when notable and credible scientific professional organizations issue policy statements, or when the National Academies of Science issue a policy statement, then one can safely say the majority viewpoint of the scientific community is thus. FeloniousMonk 15:18, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

It's more accurate to say that, for example, "the National Academies of Science issued a policy statement..." which is completely unambiguous. --Iantresman 16:11, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we should be doing that. We shouldn't be assuming Carroll speaks for scientific consensus. -Jim Butler^(talk) 09:03, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to take a shotgun approach to references and throw in a moderate number that appear reasonably notable. Obviously some will be better than others so once it's done I suggest we sort out the better ones. Help would be appreciated as finding references is a real pain :) . Jefffire 12:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Think you could move the deleted references to a subpage or a section here so that we can more readily see whether some others should be included? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 18:07, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jefffire. Your suggestion is constructive. I believe it'll take a bit of doing though. I will help out as much as I am able to (struggling with a full time job right now). I believe adding more specific citations to the article will take a while. Though certainly in my readings of pseudoscience literature, the lists and facts presented are very well supported in the literature. I encourage others here also to find more reliable references on the various views covered. Lets cooperatively make a well researched article long term. ATB KrishnaVindaloo 06:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I've found what may be a useful reference, trouble is, it's in French, a book, and not online. It's called "L'Imposture Scientifique en Dix Lecons" and there is a review [28], which tells us a little about it. Jefffire 11:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no way of demonstrating any sort of scientific consensus for at least the great majority of the topics listed, and possibly this is true of all of them. Many of them still do not even have a single reference to back up their inclusion! Right now their inclusion simply represents the fact that some critic (in some cases, apparently just an editor of this article!) has deemed them worthy of this title. The section title should accurately represent this. Better to say honestly that these topics are criticised by some author or another than to claim that there is consensus on such a wide range of themes.Hgilbert 12:39, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes there is no way of proving consensus unless you do your own OR and give a survey to a representative portion of the scientific community. Subjects are considered pseudoscientific for various reasons including the behaviour and claims of the proponents/promoters. Presently the list of pseudoscientific subjects is not just by some author or another. Carroll is a professor who teaches about ethics and the nature of pseudoscience. Williams et al are all professors or specific experts on the subject and they handle pseudoscientific subjects properly. Beyond that, there are other references placing the subjects there. They are all notable pseudoscientific subjects as far as I see. The sources are good and so the subjects can be included according to NPOV policies on this matter. KrishnaVindaloo 09:10, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Right, for most topics we can't prove sci consensus that they are pseudoscience. All the more reason in those cases to present arg's in article body, and use lists on this page with a lower threshold (i.e. Carroll is fine), and NOT to use the cat. That certainly appears to follow NPOV per WP:CG and Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people. We should reserve the cat for those cases where we reallt can document scientific consensus per WP:RS, e.g. "creation science", flat-earthism, certain forms of global-warming debunking, etc. thx, Jim Butler^(talk) 16:43, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

No, we don't need to "prove sci consensus that [topics] are pseudoscience"; we only need to show that a number of scientists say a topic is pseudoscience, that is all. And WP:NPOV applies to categories as well; what you propose is a form of POV fork, which are specifically proscribed by the same policy. Also read NPOV: Pseudoscience "The task before us is not to describe disputes as though, for example, pseudoscience were on a par with science; rather, the task is to represent the majority (scientific) view as the majority view and the minority (sometimes pseudoscientific) view as the minority view; and, moreover, to explain how scientists have received pseudoscientific theories. This is all in the purview of the task of describing a dispute fairly." FeloniousMonk 17:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Your silence on the guidelines WP:CG and Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people continues, and doesn't escape the notice of other editors. These guidelines are very clear on how to apply WP:NPOV to the category namespace. That namespace is unique because categories appear without annotations. I disagree that judicious use of categories represents a POV fork. On the contrary, it's a way of making sure that (per NPOV) "where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted." That's easy enough in the article namespace, but with controversial categorizations, NPOV and WP:V dictate judiciousness.

Your threshold for applying this category is wildly low. Would you suggest the same for other cats? For example, if a few historians say G.W. Bush is a fascist, then he should go in category:fascists? And how on earth is Robert Carroll, a philosopher of science, a reliable source for what "some" or "a significant portion" or whatever of scientists say? Are all things designated as pseudosciences equally pseudoscientific? Is intelligent design just as pseudoscientific, in terms of across-the-board violation of the scientific method and broad consensus among scientists, as chiropractic or acupuncture? Of course not. Chiro and acu make falsifiable claims, are taken seriously by mainstream researchers, and have a body of research supporting them. Shades of grey do exist here, which is the whole point of WP:CG's suggestion of setting the bar higher.

Sorry if I sound a little steamed here, but I've addressed your points before and I believe your continued refusal to reply, while nonetheless editing according to your POV, is both uncivil and counter to WP:DR. Thanks, Jim Butler^(talk) 06:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

all interwiki where removed recently

Please check Revision as of 03:38, 5 July 2006 by FeloniousMonk - all interwiki where removed with a lot of other data. Gveret Tered 19:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

"FeloniousMonk" -- That's good! ;-) Would that be like the rogue Shaolin priest who... Excuse me; I digress. --71.131.9.209 18:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, my login timed out. The above is me. --Chris 18:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Pseudoscientific practices?

I'm preparing to post a list of suggested changes. Meanwhile, reading the discussion here triggered a thought: can a practice properly be considered pseudoscientific? Chiropractic has already come up for a lot of discussion, and I think the consensus here is that it does work (at least in part). So if someone applies the techniques of chiropractic, and they alleviate a medical problem, that confirms the validity of those techniques, does it not?

IOW, the techniques of chiropractic are both testable and falsifiable. In fact, they have undergone a century of experimental testing. Reportedly, some work and some don't. (Of course, the procedures of conventional medicine are not 100% effective either.)

Clearly these techniques can be considered separately from any theoretical basis of chiropractic, which may well be pseudoscientific. (I know too little about the field to say one way or the other.)

Another example might be psychic surgery (so ably debunked by James Randi.) As far as I'm aware, it has no claimed theoretical basis: a "psychic surgeon" merely makes passes over the patient's body, holds up some allegedly removed tissue, and assures them they are cured. And pockets a hefty fee. It is nothing but a scam.

So my point is that we might want to delete practices from the article, or at least treat them in a short separate section, while keeping the emphasis on theories and beliefs. --71.131.9.209 18:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Whoops, my login timed out. The above is me. --Chris 18:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Chris. The reason for putting pseudoscientific practices into the article is to help the reader. They are concrete and recognizable. The theories also are not clearly distinguishable from the practices. Also, for a practice to be ethically applied, it's theories should undergo proper testing. This is all related to realism and judging the merits of a medicine, therapy, or educational intervention according to reality. Properly tested theory makes the practice tenable. In many papers, it will state something like: Neurolinguistic programming theory has been falsified according to scientific reviews. Then they will conclude that NLP has all the characteristics of a pseudoscience, and should not be promoted in psychology bodies etc. It is not appropriate to remove practice from theory, and it will be a disservice to the reader to remove clear concrete examples. atb KrishnaVindaloo 09:29, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Blob Theory

Whoever added Blob Theory, you should really look into it a bit more before adding things like that. For one thing it is not a scientific theory, but a philosophical theory, specifically a epistemological theory (and perhaps ontological depending on how far one is inclined to take it). And its probably not even bad philosophy at that. If W.V.O. Quine, a well respected logician and philosopher (a respect well-earned), takes it seriously (as the article says, but who knows its wikipedia after-all, and I don't know that much about the theory, admittedly I've never seen him talk about it), its probably worth looking into what the theory is saying if your interested in epistemology. The nature of "properties" is a very deep question in epistemology. The Blob Theory approach to the question may be an odd approach, but there really is nothing wrong, philosophically, with the approach, aside from the fact that it might not be a very fruitful line of questioning (but, then again, it might be fruitful). Brentt 07:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

SRAM and SRMHP

Hello again. These are two very good and clarifying references for anyone who wants to delve further into pseudoscience in psychology. It bridges over to medicine, and education also. Here are the links:

• This is an excellent rationale from the perspective of science over pseudoscience in general: [29]. It shows that although some therapies are promoted by various bodies, there is a lot of scientific criticism of that promotion. This is a crucial point and will impact on this article and all the related articles on the list that are mentioned in the publications.

• Also, an older but still excellent publication: Scientific Review of Alternative Medicine (SRAM) [30].

Some of it is online, and a some will need ordering or discovering from libraries/databases. atb KrishnaVindaloo 05:15, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Ghost_hunting

I feel this qualifies for definition as a pseudoscience. Ghost_hunting is a growing phenomenon practiced by many part-time paranormal researchers "in the name of science". These folks subscribe to the methodology and protocols used by other part-time paranormal researchers before them: lights-out investigation, EMF detectors to measure "spirits", IR thermometers to measure "cold spots" in ambient air temperature, video to capture "orbs" and audio to capture "electronic voice phenomenona" (i.e. spirit voices).

Due to the popularity of a hit TV show Ghost_Hunters, many casual viewers are convinced they are seeing proof of the afterlife (or at least the paranormal) on TV. The TV show carries no disclaimer. The investigators on TV (The_Atlantic_Paranormal_Society) claim they are skeptics following "scientific procedure" while informing the audience of the nature of 'demons' and 'entities' found in 'hauntings'.

What is the criteria for nominating these pages to carry a pseudoscience tag? I invite examination and comment on these wiki entries. LuckyLouie 17:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

The criteria is a little fuzzy. But I'd say this is a pretty safe addition. Brentt 00:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

How does one proceed? Is there discussion? Vote? LuckyLouie 06:59, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion on list.

Rather than revert warring, I suggest HGilbert discuss their proposed changes. Basicaly this looks very much like WP:Point to me. Can't get rid of list? Then disrupt it instead. The list has numerous references from sources other than Williams. The inclusion of the scientific fields Williams mentions as being once consider pseudoscience has been discussed and they were removed. Jefffire 12:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

At the moment, inclusion in the Encyclopedia is the sole criterion for many current topics on the list. It would be more honest either to make a list of all topics he includes, or only to include topics that his authors actually criticize as pseudoscientific. In other words, if we do not wish to take the first course, we should take off some presently cited themes that are not actually called pseudoscientific (or the equivalent) by the articles cited. Hgilbert 12:51, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Citations from Williams

I have finally obtained a copy of Williams' Encyclopedia. I find the inclusion of him as source for individual topics misleading. First of all, he did not write the articles; unnamed authors did. His name should not be used, just the Encyclopedia title. Second of all, many of the articles actually do not imply that the topic is pseudoscientific; only their inclusion in the Encyclopedia does this. But he also includes many topics that are clearly not pseudoscientific. A more differentiated approach would improve things...could we not aim for at least one quote per topic demonstrating the character of the critique? Hgilbert 12:44, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Topics removed for improvement

I have removed the following topics from the list. They either have no citations (after a long period when these were requested) or the citations do not support their inclusion here.

• Acupuncture (Williams 2000:3-4 - calls the Yin/Yang theory pseudoscientific but claims that acupuncture's validity may stand independently of this)
• Biblical scientific foresight
  • Baraminology
  • Creation biology
  • Creationist cosmologies
  • Flood geology
    • Irreducible complexity
    • Specified complexity
• Duesberg hypothesis (Claims that HIV is a "harmless agent" unrelated to AIDS)
• Hutchison effect
• Megalithic yard and other pseudoscientific metrology (Williams 2000:210 - article actually supports the concept of the megalithic yard!!)
• New Chronology
• Novelty Theory (aka "Timewave Zero")
• Orthomolecular medicine
• Palmistry (Williams 2000:256 - article actually supports the validity of palmistry)
• Remote Viewing (Williams 2000:301-2 - article presents a complex picture)
• Synchronicity (Williams 2000:338 - article is negative but probably does not justify the term pseudoscientific; someone else might want to review this one)

Well, there are refs for each one according to my readings: eg in a review and further experiment by, Streitberger et al 2004:149 to identify the placebo effect of acupuncture. (accordint to them accupuncture is pseudoscientific in theory and as a practice in eastern and western countries).

Streitberger K, Diefenbacher M, Bauer A, Conradi R, Bardenheuer H, Martin E, Schneider A, Unnebrink K. Acupuncture compared to placebo-acupuncture for postoperative nausea and vomiting prophylaxis. Anaes. 2004;59:142-149.

This article shows effectiveness of acupuncture for certain treatments; for another treatment, efficacy near placebo level. It suggests as a hypothesis that acupuncture operates through conscious suggestion and then says that this hypothesis is actually discounted by the results (acupuncture under anaesthesia is more effective, counter to expectations). There is no suggestion of a pseudoscientific nature.

Please note that a study showing that a particular treatment is not effective for a particular illness (under a particular testing regime) is not evidence for calling the treatment pseudoscience. Many medicines are found uneffective in the normal course of scientific study.

Both palmistry and rving are pseudoscientific according to many sources. The EOP is actually very clear on both of them. Removal from the article is quite absurd. Editors here are working on a large body of pseudoscience. Collecting references will take time. KrishnaVindaloo 03:37, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

We have time; there is no reason to rush into categorizing items for which there are no known sources. Better to maintain a high standard here. Hgilbert 11:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

And the addition of birth control to the list of pseudosciences. Was that "maintaining high standards"? Criticise if you must but please -do not disrupt Wikipedia to prove a point-. Jefffire 12:27, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Mea culpa. Let's insure that no spurious entries occur, however, not merely the glaringly spurious ones. Hgilbert 15:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Focus on findings, not speculative discussion

Hi all. The findings and statements of scientists are what is needed here. Not selective editing of speculation or discussion. It is almost impossible to prove something doesn't work. If a subject is stated to be pseudoscientific then it deserves mention or listing. If someone speculates that we may find a way to verify it, that is speculation. Pigs may find a way to fly in future. It is pure speculation. The finding: There is no evidence that pigs can fly. KrishnaVindaloo 06:33, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi KV. Hypotheticals can be illustratively useful. In the case of the paragraph mentioning acupuncture, it's more than hypothetical, since there is actually evidence for acu. The section makes a distinction between acu's prescientific theoretical basis and the verifiability of its empirical claims. Acu's claims are taken seriously enough by scientists to have been the subject of hundreds of RCT's and a couple dozen evidence-based medicine reviews, a few of which have found evidence for efficacy, a few of which find pretty clear evidence of acu being no better than a placebo, and the large majority of which conclude that better studies are needed in order to determine efficacy. (Thus, the protoscience label makes sense. See Acupuncture#Scientific_research.) TCM theory may thus be seen as a system of metaphors guiding effective clinical application, and its predictions are testable. Acupuncture is thus a good example to mention.

I agree that if someone has said a subject is pseudoscientific, we can mention that view under NPOV. Use of category:pseudoscience may not be appropriate in cases where there are also good arguments, e.g. scientific evidence of efficacy, that something isn't pseudoscientific. WP:CG discusses this. You've in the past expressed concerns that the cat should be broadened for the sake of indexing, and I've pointed out that "what links here" is useful for that and doesn't endorse POV's the way the cat does. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 18:37, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

When I say speculation, I mean if a subject is considered pseudoscience but the same author says "well we don't know what's around the corner", it still means that it is considered pseudoscientific. Otherwise, you could make astrology a science. Lets keep it clear and according to NPOV citation policy. KrishnaVindaloo 09:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Considered pseudoscientific by whom? If by scientific consensus, then need to source that, not Carroll. If sig views say chiro is scientific, then we clarify that. In the chiro article, and to some degree on this list on this page, we can do that. With cat's, we can't. To be clear -- do you disagree with WP:CG? thanks, Jim Butler^(talk) 16:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Has there been a credible study on astrology in the scientific community that concludes that the consensus is that astrology is pseudoscience? I doubt it. We could only determine consensus by original research. That is against NPOV policy. So if a reliable scientific source considers a subject to be pseudoscientific, then according to NPOV policy it gets included so that science can say how it has received pseudoscientific ideas. Categories are there to help the reader compare subjects for the sake of explanation. It is useful to compare chiropractic with, for example, astrology and Scientology. Remember that cat does not compare chiropractic with brain surgery. I think you will have to admit, that will help the reader. It will also allow the reader to see the credible aspects of any of those subjects. We are talking about explanations and clarifications here. If you want to defend your subject, just make sure the credible aspects are presented and maintained in that article. I am sure there are enough editors here who simply want to explain pseudoscientific subjects as neutrally as possible. That does require editors actually getting to compare, explain, and clarify. Censoring related subjects will be unhelpful. I doubt it is your intention to un-clarify. So lets just get on with making sure that if there are any credibly scientifically supported aspects to a subject, they are clarified in the specific article, and if there are any pseudoscientific aspects, they are also clear and comparable to other pseudocientific subjects. KrishnaVindaloo 06:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Removed paragraphs

I've removed the following paragraph from the end of the section on Pseudoscience#Pseudoscience_contrasted_with_protoscience for analysis and reconsideration of its content and placement. ... Kenosis 03:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

• "Ultimately, whether something is pseudoscience or not has less to do with the ideas under study than the approach used to study or justify them. Acupuncture, for instance, while it involves a prescientific system, is not inherently pseudoscientific. This is because most of its claims can be tested scientifically, so to the degree its claims have not yet been verified, acupuncture could be viewed as a protoscience. (There is some scientific evidence for certain claims of acupuncture.) Of course, scientific investigation might fail to support other claims. In the presence of a number of tests that successfully falsify a particular claim, insisting that the claim is still scientifically supported becomes pseudoscience." ... 03:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I just removed this from the beginning of the section on Pseudoscience#Identifying_pseudoscience. The first sentence is frequently true of explanations of genuine scientific work to the public. The second sentence is a speculation which may well be true, but which is nonetheless quite speculative. ... Kenosis 17:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

• "Popular pseudoscientific theories tend to be liberally simplified and/or emotionally appealing, more in line with fact-based storytelling than actual science. This is arguably fueled by the common misconception of science simply being the search for truth, as opposed to the carefully refined methodology that it is." ... 17:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Technical Analysis as Pseudoscience?

I'm just wondering if classifing Technical Analysis as a pseudoscience is accurate anymore. As a whole, I would agree, but there are scientifically verifiable results from using neural networks to produce a greater than average return from a market. So while a human may not be able to analyze technical factors to obtain a profit, neural networks can. Seems to me that this is reasonably arguable that it should be left off the list. Any other thoughts? Timbatron 07:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree and have removed it. -- Fyslee 20:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Chiropractic: WHAT is it?

The debate about the inclusion of chiropractic is likely to continue on endlessly, unless we clarify what we're talking about. The following sums up a fallacious argument we've heard before:

"You have presented people that say chiropractic is pseudoscince. I have presented people that say chiropractic is science. Levine2112 07:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)" [31]

Now just what is wrong with that statement? It treats "chiropractic" as an object that is either/or, instead of both/and. That is a rather rare situation when dealing with people or professions. Most are blended. Most deceptive ideas - and especially the "best" ones - are composed of both truth and falsehood. The better the deception, the more truth it contains. That's what makes it so deceptive. The existence of a truth in a scam doesn't make it any less of a scam, on the contrary, it makes it a more dangerous scam. So it is with a profession like chiropractic, it is made up of many elements, some true, some false, and some of little consequence in this matter. (I am not saying that chiropractic as a whole is a "scam," I just used that as an example of a deceptively blended subject.)

So what are the decisive factors that weigh heavily in the balance for or against inclusion in the pseudoscience category? I'd say that multiple key elements that are important and fundamental for a profession, method, theory, or system, are what determines inclusion, not single elements. Just because we can easily point to a potentially scientific element that is included in chiropractic, does not negate the fact that the foundation of the profession, as well as many of its ideas and practices, are unscientific and unethical.

According to the quote above, some people say it's pseudoscience and some say it's science. Well, they are talking about different aspects, so fallacious reasoning is being used in that sentence. Chiropractors point to one potentially scientific aspect (manipulation) and call "chiropractic" (as a whole) science, while scientists and skeptics point to all the factors that are fundamental to, and/or characteristic for, chiropractic, which are unscientific and unethical, and call chiropractic pseudoscience. They don't consider something that isn't even unique for chiropractic (manipulation), to be significant enough to outweigh the negative factors.

So WHAT is chiropractic? It is the sum of its parts, and some of the most fundamental ones are pseudoscientific. Chiropractic is not solely manipulation. Manipulation is not chiropractic. Chiropractic is characterized by its reasons for using manipulation, and those reasons are the pseudoscientific fundament of the profession. Hence calling chiropractic "pseudoscientific" is justified.

Resources for studying this subject:

• Chiropractic: Does the Bad Outweigh the Good? - Samuel Homola, D.C.

"Many people go to chiropractors for relief of back pain. But there is reason for caution. Much of what chiropractors do is nonsense, and they often misinform their patients."

• Chiropractic: science and antiscience and pseudoscience side by side - Joseph C. Keating, Jr, PhD

• Subluxation: dogma or science? - Keating J, Charlton K, Grod J, Perle S, Sikorski D, Winterstein J (2005) Chiropr Osteopat. 2005; 13: 17.

• Answers to Questions about Chiropractic: Are You For or Against Chiropractors? - Samuel Homola, D.C.

• Chiropractic: A Skeptical View - William T. Jarvis, Ph.D.

"Survival of a Pseudoscience

The illusionary "subluxation" not only is the theoretical basis for chiropractic but constitutes its legal basis as well. Many state laws describe chiropractic as the finding and removal of subluxations. It is enigmatic that such a system thrives late in the twentieth century, which has seen such progress in the biological sciences and health care. While biological scientists have unraveled the genetic double-helix, chiropractors have failed to scientifically define their theory or scope of practice, or to justify their very existence as primary health-care providers.

Chiropractic's survival and success is undoubtedly due to the reality that healthcare delivery involves much more than science. Politics, business considerations, and the clinical art often take precedence. Although it is the scientific validity of the methods employed that justifies modern health-care, in practical terms of survival in the marketplace, chiropractic demonstrates daily that the scientific aspects of health care are of least importance and in greatest need of protection."

• Serious pseudoscience: A US university has been considering establishing a school of chiropractic. We should find out if it works first - Edzard Ernst, February 1, 2005 The Guardian

• Chiropractic school angers FSU professors. Some threaten to resign over the proposed school. - RON MATUS, Times Staff Writer

• A SCIENTIFIC LOOK AT ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE - Thomas J. Wheeler, Ph.D.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology

University of Louisville School of Medicine

ON-LINE READING FOR JANUARY 10, 2006

CHIROPRACTIC, OSTEOPATHY, MASSAGE, ANTI-VACCINATION MOVEMENT

• Recognizing Pseudoscience - Ron Good

• Scientific support for chiropractic? - My own discussion (here at Wikipedia) on the subject

• What is chiropractic and does chiropractic work? - John Jackson

"Chiropractic is a pseudoscience. The thinking behind it has no basis in fact, and even after more than a century, its core belief, the subluxation, cannot be shown to exist; even though it is a scientifically testable theory.

Some of the beliefs, such as the anti-vaccination stance, actually go against scientific evidence, medical opinion and government policy. Opposing germ theory exposes the 19th century thinking that Chiropractic is based upon.

Chiropractic is not one technique that can treat one class of illness or disease. It is promoted as a panacea and an all-encompassing preventative measure to be used from the moment we are born onwards.

A healing system that is based on a mystical life-force that gets blocked by imaginary subluxations, and that relies on anecdotal evidence; special pleading; the placebo effect; and subjective diagnoses is clearly an irrational concept: no matter how much credence is given to it with qualifications and self-regulation."

• Google: chiropractic+pseudoscience

-- Fyslee 20:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Several of the following replies to my entry above should be read in light of an obvious misunderstanding(?) of my message, and the perpetuation of the fallacious argument which I pointed out. The mistake is to confuse manipulation for chiropractic.

The fallacious statement again:

"You have presented people that say chiropractic is pseudoscince. I have presented people that say chiropractic is science. Levine2112 07:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)" [32]

The key elements without the fallacious reasoning:

Some people say that "chiropractic" is pseudoscience. Some people say that "manipulation" is backed by scientific data, which happens to be disputed, but some of it does seem to show positive results.

• The word "science" applies to manipulation, not chiropractic.

• The word "pseudoscience" applies to chiropractic, not manipulation.

Scientific research has focused on manipulation, not chiropractic.

Chiropractic is not manipulation. Chiropractic is accused of containing and being based on pseudoscientific ideas. Manipulation does not suffer that fate, although it suffers under the pseudoscientific reasons used by chiropractic to justify its use. -- Fyslee 19:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Replies

You are making a fallacious argument. This isn't about scientist vs. chiropractors. This is about scientists vs. scientists. Some scientists say chiropractic is pseudoscientific. Some say it is not. So which scientists' POV does this article represent? Seemingly just the ones that you agree with.

The following is the result of a few minutes of Google research. As you well know, this is but a small percentage of the work that is out there that goes to say that chiropractic is a science. So you have your sources, and I have mine. With this much contention, I don't see how we can keep listing chiropractic factually as an example of a pseudoscience. I see no consensus in the scientific community that says it is. All I see is propaganda left over from a time before the AMA was sued and was found guilty of a huge conspiracy to cover up the results of chiropractic research in order to protect the wallets of the AMA members. Guilty of anti-trust, the AMA continues its reign of anti-chiropractic propaganda through other avenues, feeding it to you, hoping you'll believe it and perpetuate their myth that chiropractic is pseudoscience. Fyslee, how does the Kool Aid taste?

• Chiropractic is a very specific health care science applied by doctors of chiropractic who practice under an extensive body of authorities. These authorities have evolved over more than a century of legislative and judicial development, educational growth, practical experience and professional consensus. Like other first professional degree holders, the doctor of chiropractic is a carefully regulated professional who must qualify on a number of levels to obtain the right to practice. CHIROPRACTIC SCIENCE AND PRACTICE IN THE UNITED STATES: A REPORT TO THE WHITE HOUSE COMMISSION ON COMPLEMENTARY AND ALTERNATIVE MEDICINE POLICY

• Right now chiropractors can go before any audience and say that there is sufficient science to discuss the neurological and clinical effects of the adjustment. It is no longer credible for anyone to state that "there is no scientific basis for spinal manipulation or the chiropractic adjustment." THE EVOLUTION OF CHIROPRACTIC — SCIENCE & THEORY by Scott Haldeman, D.C., M.D., Ph.D.

• Leading edge research in cellular and molecular biology is currently offering a radically new understanding of the mechanisms that "control" life and evolution. These new findings will inevitably integrate and unify the truths of both biomedical scientists and chiropractors. The Evolving Science of Chiropractic Philosophy by Bruce Lipton, PhD.

• In their extensive review of the literature, Manga et al (34) published in 1993 that chiropractic management of low-back pain is superior to allopathic medical management in terms of greater safety, greater effectiveness and reduced cost. The Science of Chiropractic and Spinal Manipulation by Alex Vasquez, DC, ND

• To date, most of the published research relative to chiropractic relates to effectiveness studies for spinal manipulation. The randomized clinical trial is the gold standard of research designs and more than 50 such trials have been conducted on spinal manipulation. In short, the effectiveness of this procedure for certain kinds of back, neck, and head pain has been so well established that it has been included as a recommended treatment for low-back pain by independently developed, evidence-based government guidelines in the U.S., Britain, and Denmark. The Chiropractic Profession and Its Research and Education Programs

• One of the most exciting developments is in basic science approaches to chiropractic theory, especially the interface between spinal biomechanics and neuroscience. There are now enough experts in different locations around the globe to tackle different aspects of this area, and we are now starting to see how all this research can dovetail together. Believe It or Not, Chiropractic Science Is Evolving! by William Meeker, DC, MPH, FICC

• Chiropractic science is an approach to human health that was developed through extensive anatomical study in which the elements of the human system, particularly the spine and nervous system continue to be examined in an effort to understand the relationship between the state of those anatomical elements and optimal human health. CHIROPRACTIC SCIENCE AND PRACTICE

• For the first time in chiropractic history, a research journal specifically dedicated to the science of subluxation is making sure that everyone -- D.C.s, patients, M.D.s, insurance reviewers, attorneys, lawmakers, and the general public -- has access to valuable research information that explores all aspects of the vertebral subluxation. JVSR brings chiropractic science to patients and the media

Levine2112 21:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Could you possibly find more biased cites? Of course chiropractic sites are going to declare chiropractics is a science. •Jim62sch• 22:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that is fair. All of the sites that Fyslee and others have found that declare chiropractic is pseudoscience could be characterized similarly. For instance, Fyslee cites his own website when it is clear that he is extremely biased against chiropractic. Anyhow, some of the references that I have posted above come from outside the chiropractic community, but happen to be reposted on chiropractic sites. Some are from MDs and some are from PhDs. Dr. Mercola's site for instance is certainly extremely notable both inside and outside of the alternative medicine world. Actually, I think the most interesting points about chiropractic being a science comes from the Florida State University website's posting made by a team of independent researchers (see the The Chiropractic Profession and Its Research and Education Programs link above). Levine2112 23:32, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Radical anti-chiropractic fundamentalist extremists are NOT scientists

I think I see the error in Fyslee’s reasoning as to the debate here.

He is confusing radical anti-chiropractic fundamentalist extremists with ‘scientists’. Most in the list he posted above are connected in some way with Stephen Barrett the self-appointed World Headmaster of Chiropractic hatred in charge of the Chiropractic problem and Final Solution. These authors are in no way shape or form, scientists by any stretch of the imagination. They all use their academic credentials to add an air of legitimacy to their musings, sanctioned by SB (didn’t he fail his psych boards) and then quoted endlessly by the marketing/propaganda arm of Stephen Barrett Enterprises. The more you say something and link it to their websites so Google can find it, then the truer it must be. Right? Not! In reality, they are just biased, extremely bigoted opinions. They are passing off their views, not only as truth (far from it), but also as ‘everyone’s’ view on the subject.

Levine has provided hundreds of perfectly good references and they are ignored. But much ballyhoo is accorded references from known anti-chiropractic extremists. If medicine quotes medical journals, no problem. But if chiropractic quotes chiropractic journals - - FOUL!

Smoke and mirrors work wonders when one is trying to pass off the ‘reality’ of a physical therapist as the ‘real’ reality when it certainly isn’t. You really have to focus and concentrate to keep things straight when reading this so-called ‘debate’. Steth 23:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Above is yet another typical non-reply from Steth.

All straw man attack using ad hominem logical fallacies to divert attention from the contents of my message. He repeats the misunderstanding made by Levine2112 by mentioning scientific research that applies primarily to manipulation, not to chiropractic.

A clear violation of No Personal Attacks and failure to assume good faith. Also a failure to reply to the message, while attacking the messenger. Pretty poor behavior for a Wikipedia editor. I assume other editors can see through what he's up to. -- Fyslee 19:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

And I assume the other editors can see through what you are up to as well. You are manipulating this discussion page just as you manipulate facts. To best suit your needs. The fact is that you are a true believer of the anti-chiropractic movement and are blinded to open rational discussion. You have had a clear agenda ever since you came to Wikipedia last year that hasn't waivered to date.

Steth has made some valid criticism of your debating tactics. That was fully warranted. He is attempting to show your logical fallacies just as you have attempted to do to his and mine. I think the phrase "Don't dish it out if you can't take it" rigorously applies to you here. Levine2112 19:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

You assume incorrectly. He did not discuss the content of my message, which is in keeping with the subject matter for this article. He directly attacked me, sources, etc. He attempts to poison the well. He attacks the man, instead of calmly and professionally using well-reasoned arguments to deal with the content of the message. This has been his consistent pattern, unlike yourself. You can do that when you want to. -- Fyslee 20:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Use of WP as a soapbox by adding hate-centric edits to marginalize chiropractic and denigrate editors who are chiropractors is a clear violation

Gentlemen, I was merely pointing out chiropractic historian Fyslee's misguided 'reasoning' that the opinions of those who actively engage in anti-chiropractic fundamentalist extremism are not the same thing as what scientists think. Practically all of his 'sources' have been given the good hate-keeping seal of approval by Stephen Barrett Enterprises, you know, the one who failed the psych boards (fact). SB and his friends, and he counts Fyslee among them, regularly engage in activities that are meant to damage chiropractic and dehumanize chiropractors.

This hate-centric mentality is the basis behind the so-called 'sources' that Fyslee digs out of his sandbox and constantly bombards us with as 'proof' that chiropractic is pseudoscience. This is the reality of an anti-chiropractic physical therapist and I am getting sick and tired of it being forced down our throats by Fyslee as the gospel truth. He is passing off his 'opinion' as fact and trying to convince us that it is also the opinion of scientists when it clearly is not.

Using WP as a soapbox is a clear violation. Adding opinion that only serves to marginalize chiropractic and denigrates the chiropractic editors such as Levine, Dematt and Hughr among others. This hate-centric POV must stop. Steth 02:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Why not look it up in a notable science journal. granted both sides of the argument are biased, think of what makes it scientific and look up those facts. I just see a revert war insuing. Somerset219 00:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

That is an excellent idea, the problem is that notable science journals have published both viewpoints; that chiropractic is science and that chiropractic is rooted in pseudoscience. My main contention is that a lot of the pseudoscience claims are reminents of a time when the AMA was actively engaging in a conspiracy to surpress chiropractic research. U.S. courts found and held that the AMA engaged in such a conspiracy purely for financial reasons; protecting themselves from the competition they knew chiropractic would offer. (And I know what people think when they start hearing the word "conspiracy" thrown around, but this conspiracy was more than a theory I assure you. See Wilk v. American Medical Association to learn all about the shocking reality.) The conspiracy and anti-chiro propaganda continues today, with anti-chiro organization taking out advertisements on billboards and buses claiming that chiropractic is dangerous... even though the most conservative studies show that serious complications from a chiropractic adjustment are virtually non-existent. It has been shown that "researchers" claiming that chiropractic is dangerous derived their figures by deceptively factoring in more than chiropractic adjustments into their analysis pool. They have included manipulations performed by less skilled practitioners including massage therapist and some sort of Kung Fu guy. I know it sounds unreal but check this out: According to "a research report in the Journal of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics, "manipulations" administered by a Kung Fu practitioner, GPs, osteopaths, physiotherapists, a wife, a blind masseur, and an Indian barber had been incorrectly attributed to chiropractors." The report goes on to say, "The words chiropractic and chiropractor have been incorrectly used in numerous publications dealing with SMT injury by medical authors, respected medical journals and medical organizations. In many cases, this is not accidental; the authors had access to original reports that identified the practitioner involved as a non-chiropractor. The true incidence of such reporting cannot be determined. Such reporting adversely affects the reader's opinion of chiropractic and chiropractors." (Terrett AGJ: Misuse of the literature by medical authors in discussing spinal manipulative therapy injury. JMPT 1995;18:203) Anyhow, we can continue these lies here on Wikipedia or we can do our due diligence and try to publish the truth. Forgive our frustration, but this nonsense has gone on long enough. Levine2112 01:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Does this help? "Numerous studies and expert panel reviews have supported the use of chiropractic and manipulation for these complaints. Satisfaction with chiropractic care for low back pain typically is good. Chiropractic, in general, offers safe and cost-effective procedures for selected musculoskeletal problems" PubMed--Hughgr 01:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Several of the replies above should be read in light of an obvious misunderstanding(?) of my message, and a perpetuation of the fallacious argument which I pointed out. The mistake is to confuse manipulation for chiropractic.

The fallacious statement again:

"You have presented people that say chiropractic is pseudoscince. I have presented people that say chiropractic is science. Levine2112 07:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)" [33]

The key elements without the fallacious reasoning:

Some people say that "chiropractic" is pseudoscience. Some people say that "manipulation" is backed by scientific data, which happens to be disputed, but some of it does seem to show positive results.

• The word "science" applies to manipulation, not chiropractic.

• The word "pseudoscience" applies to chiropractic, not manipulation.

Scientific research has focused on manipulation, not chiropractic.

Chiropractic is not manipulation. Chiropractic is accused of containing and being based on pseudoscientific ideas. Manipulation does not suffer that fate, although it suffers under the pseudoscientific reasons used by chiropractic to justify its use. -- Fyslee 19:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you are misunderstanding/misrepresenting me. I want to be clear on this. There are studies that show manipulation - specifically the chiropractic adjustment - is scientifically effective. Therefore, I say again that while some scientists claim that chiropractic is pseudoscientific, there are also some that say chiropractic is scientific. Please refrain from twisting my logic which says the word science applies to chiropractic. And stop using Wikipedia as a soapbaox to push your anti-chiropractic agenda. The most fallacious point made here is by you: Scientific research has focused on manipulation, not chiropractic. Huh? Do you truly believe this to be true? Have you completely ignored every bit of chiropractic research that I have pointed you to? Or are you writing those off because it doesn't fit into the world you have constructed? Either way, much scientific research exists that support chiropractic (especially considering there has only been 20 or so years where chiropractic was free to be researched without scared goliaths such as the AMA surpressing their findings. Levine2112 19:25, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not misunderstanding you at all. I understand you perfectly well, and point out that you are using flawed logic in your wording. The scientific research has been concerned primarily with manipulation, not so much with chiropractic.

Chiropractic is about much more than manipulation, and many of the aspects of chiropractic that identify it have not been the subjects of scientific research because they are unscientific, pseudoscientific, anti-scientific, anti-medical, etc..

It is these dubious aspects that are being referred to when chiropractic is labeled pseudoscientific. It is not manipulation that is being labeled pseudoscientific, although the reasons used by chiropractic to justify its use are so labeled.

Joseph C. Keating, Jr, PhD, chiropractic historian and professor, uses the following words to describe many dubious aspects of the profession when he analyzes chiropractic, its research, thinking, practices, and journals:

• a continuing enigma
• science
• antiscience
• pseudoscience
• quackery
• anti-intellectual traditions
• unscientific
• irrational
• confusion
• antiscientific mindset
• cult
• chiropractic's foibles
• religious overtones
• humbug
• uncritical dogma
• circus
• showmanship
• marketing
• unsubstantiated claims
• pseudoscience journals
• uncritical rationalism
• uncritical empiricism
• fuzzy thinkers
• health fraud
• student loan defaults
• paranoia
• xenophobia
• nonskeptical attitudes
• "anti-intellectual" traditions

He writes:

"After thirteen years of teaching and research at several chiropractic colleges, I can say with confidence that chiropractic is both science and antiscience. Yes, there is a meaningful science of chiropractic, but just as surely there is an antiscientific mindset and even a cult within chiropractic (for example, the cult of B. J. Palmer, son of the founder of chiropractic). Moreover, if University of Connecticut sociologist Walter Wardwell is correct (Wardwell 1992), the belief systems of a majority of DCs lie somewhere between these two poles: chiropractic as science versus chiropractic as unscientific, uncritical dogma and circus. Perhaps a consideration of the nature of science will aid in understanding how the chiropractic profession does and does not approximate the rigors of science."

"In recent years this combination of uncritical rationalism and uncritical empiricism has been bolstered by the proliferation of pseudoscience journals of chiropractic wherein poor quality research and exuberant overinterpretation of results masquerade as science and provide false confidence about the value of various chiropractic techniques. These periodicals expand on the uncritical attitudes and unproven claims for chiropractic that have long been made in the magazines published by the national membership societies of chiropractors in the United States. It is practically impossible to read any of the trade publications within chiropractic without encountering unsubstantiated claims."

"Coexisting with the obvious and ubiquitous antiscientific and pseudoscientific reasoning and rhetoric in chiropractic (Skrabanek 1988) are the genuinely critical, skeptical attitudes of the still quite embryonic research community in this profession."

"The conflict between medical doctors and DCs has also produced a penchant for marketing slogans in lieu of scientifically testable propositions. The classic example of this is the mindless reiteration that "chiropractic works," a vacuous claim which lacks specificity and is not amenable to experimental testing. However, confronted by charges that chiropractic is quackery, chiropractors have responded by insisting that "Chiropractic Works!" and have rallied satisfied patients to convince legislators and policy makers of the validity of their methods and the justness of their cause. Slogans like this are endlessly repeated not only to the public, but among DCs themselves (and to chiropractic students). To challenge the notion that "chiropractic works" is considered heresy in most corners of the profession. Rather than skepticism and critical thinking, traditional chiropractic education has sought to instill strong belief in chiropractic (Quigley 1981) among successive generations of students. In so doing the schools have strengthened the "anti-intellectual" (Coulter 1990) traditions in the profession."

-- Joseph C. Keating, Jr, PhD Chiropractic: science and antiscience and pseudoscience side by side

-- Fyslee 19:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Fyslee, You cannot separate manipulation from chiropractic, take the good parts and leave the rest. Manipulation would not be practiced in a healthcare setting if it weren't for the chiropractor. Their original claims included back and neck pain and rheumatism and arthritis and all those things that medicine renounced as well. You can't take the good effects of manipulation and claim them as your own, and leave the unproven parts to the cultists. That would be unethical. If science does eventually prove a relationship for vertebral subluxation and high blood pressure, or anything else health wise are they going to claim that as their own as well? --Dematt 19:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that in many ways they do belong together, but it is primarily the reasoning behind its use, not manipulation itself, that is directly "chiropractic."

That reasoning is considered to be tainted with pseudoscientific thinking. Much of the research on manipulation has not even been performed by chiropractors or mentioned chiropractic. That research (when favorable) has often been misapplied by chiropractors to chiropractic as a profession, and to the chiropractic adjustment. But when the research has been unfavorable, especially when pointing out dangers, suddenly the research gets disavowed as being about non-chiropractic "manipulation," and not applicable to chiropractic or the chiropractic "adjustment." Go figure. -- Fyslee 20:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Research performed with public funding is everybody's research. Medicine cannot claim what PhD's perform in the name of science for themselves. Chiropractic does not receive the billions in funding to conduct the studies you are asking of it. When the research does support their claims, they should be happy. When it refutes something, they have every right to be critical of it (need I say Vioxx). Isn't that what scientists do? Isn't that what you are doing? It seems to me that they are behaving as a science, not a pseudoscience. --Dematt 20:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Chiropractic is a DRAW?

Wow, looks like a tie. What do you do with a tie? Either you have to put both POVs in or take them both out. I suggest the section that includes the list be opened to allow for rebuttal or get rid of it. If you do it for one on the list, you have to allow it for all. Or the there is always the dreaded controversy template:). Or, I suppose you could just take the ones that are a tie off the list. I'll try the rebuttal option just to see what it looks like(Oops, somebody else got there first:). You can take it from there. --Dematt 02:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dematt. No there is no tie. Pseudoscience is not the opposite of science. Just as a scarecrow is not the opposite of a farmer with a shotgun. But one of your suggestions holds well for both the article on pseudoscience. Pseudoscientific subjects are never completely pseudoscientific. EG, the Dianetics e-meter is scientifically supported as a basic galvanometer, but is not useful in the practice of removing "engrams". Chiropractic is pseudoscientific and has some support for a few of its interventions. This is completely consistent with pseudoscientific subjects, it is consistent with the chiropractic article, and shows nuance enough to improve this article. Thank you. KrishnaVindaloo 05:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

KV, I changed your qualifier for chiro back to the one I had before because I thought it was more specific. I think Fyslee's comments above are right on the money, re some aspects being pseudoscience and some not. NPOV is about representing debates fairly, so we should be specific about which aspects of a topic have been called pseudoscientific and by whom. I think the criticisms of chiro are notable enough to be cited, and don't represent a tiny minority. However, we need to be careful about overstating what references are really saying, and who they speak for. Agree with Kenosis and FM on "significant part" of the scientific community being a good compromise.

And again: the category namespace is unique in that it's an on/off condition, hence WP:CG's cautions about overpopulating categories. I'd prefer to see an annotated list than an unannotated category. Not all pseudosciences are "created equal". Annotation allows us to say which aspects are criticized as pseudoscientific and by whom. For this reason I placed Template:cleancat on category:pseudoscience in order to attract edits and help resolve the issue. Discussion here and on Category_talk:Pseudoscience shows pretty clearly that such consensus hasn't been reached, IMO. Unfortunately, a couple of editors who believe the cat is fine as is keep removing the tag. Am I the only one who finds this behavior contrary to WP's standards of consensus-building and dispute-resolution? cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 05:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jim Butler. It may be specific to write subluxation, but its also too narrow. There are a lot more pseudoscientific elements to chiropractic than that in the literature. Regarding fairness, there is no debate. If a reliable source says pseudo then that is their view, and any views around that can continue on the article in question. Regarding "significant part". According to Wikipedia that shoudl be simply a reliable source. If its a reliable source, then it is significant. Otherwise, we get into OR. Concerning On OFF, yes, I agree. Pseudos are not equal, and this should in fact be reiterated in the article, and perhaps also the section in question. I am all for clear explanation of pseudoscientific subjects. It is extremely important for contemporary thinking and clear encyclopedic factual entries. KrishnaVindaloo 05:36, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

KV, I don't think you understand the specific issues relevant to the category namespace that WP:CG raises. We do agree it's good to have some summary. I think subluxation theory is the crux of it all; your point is valid, but generic. I'll try putting it in the opening paragraph. Strike that, I would, but looks like it's gonna be edit warring for awhile. A shame. It's not that hard to just say "who says what and why". The problem IMO is that some editors keep wanting to overreach, and that causes a backlash of others wanting to suppress. I think the proper balance is being approached with FM's "significant portion" bit, and including chiro on the list with some qualifier. And to all a good night. Thanks, Jim Butler^(talk) 05:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It would be ok to write : "For example, subluxation theory". Because that is brief and clearer. But chiropractic has been following the pseudoscientific line for over a century. Eg, Dogma in place of healthy skepticism, the blanket insistence that "it works", the emphasis on confirmation rather than refutation, the creation of granfalloons and cults etc. In the case of the list, we have no choice but to be vague. The link takes the reader straight to the article so it can be read. This is an electronic medium. Lets make at least some use of the facilities. KrishnaVindaloo 05:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

KV, you keep saying chiropractic is a pseudoscience. Why do you believe this? What's this insinuation about cults? What? Where's your evidence? Pardon me, but I don't think you have demonstrated enough knowledge of the subject to condemn it. By the way, certainly no one has shown that a significant portion of the scientific community (WTF does that mean anyway?) believes chiropractic to be pseudoscientific. If anything, we have shown that a larger part of the scientific community supports chiropractic as a science. I have to agree with Dematt above. At the very best, this is a tie. Either we put a caveat with chiropractic's inclusion or we delete it. I'm in favor of deleting it. Clearly, it is not a good example of a pseudoscience and thus does not help the reader in any way other than add to the confusion. I think users such as Fyslee are trying to include it here to do a little soapboxing for his anti-chiro cause. He loves you right now because you are doing his work for him. Levine2112 05:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Levine2112. I never said chiropractic is a pseudoscience. I said reliable sources state that chiropractic is pseudoscientific. I am referring constantly to the literature on pseudoscientific subjects and the literature on chiropractic. There is no insinuation about cults. This comes from the Shermer, Keating and others. I am not condemning chiropractic. Nobody is. The sources being used here are showing a scientific view that chiropractic is pseudocientific because it displays pseudoscientific characteristics such as those I mentioned above. Chiropractic is such a good example of a pseudoscientific subject because there are traditionalists who group together to sell all kinds of pseudoscientific ideas together with some scientifically verified ideas. It does not matter who is on my side. I am not at all on a soapbox. The pseudoscience article is to neutrally explain pseudoscientific subjects to the reader. That is what I am doing. Censoring pseudoscientific subjects from the article is entirely unhelpful, and betrays a desire to remove neutral and scientifically sourced views that go against the soapbox promotion of a subject. I understand that some will want to promote chiropractic. If so, stick with the chiro article and make sure the reformer views are properly maintaned and well explained. It needs emphasizing. If you focus on that endevour, you can (as reformers have) state the pseudoscientific aspects of chiro as clearly as possible, and clarify the reform recommendations. That is a win win. If it is your objective to promote the use of chiro with other pseudoscientific elements, then I believe you have an uphill battle. I maintain that you have the integrity to follow the science-savvy reformer path. KrishnaVindaloo 06:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think we could easily include chiro on the list if we backed off a little on assuming that Carroll et. al. speak for the scientific community. They don't meet WP:RS for scientific articles. The assumption that they speak for a "significant part" of the scientific community is IMO almost certainly true, which is why I supported it. But it's still an assumption, not supported by the sources, not really OK per WP:V, and "significant part" is kind of weaselly anyway. "Pseudoscience" is primarily a popular and a political term, barely verging on social science in the same sense that "cult" is. It's not a term most scientists use in the peer-reviewed literature, and isn't a valid scientific category. Better IMO to stop overreaching, just say who's making the criticisms and why, and also clearly present the scientific view, which includes (a) they don't buy subluxation theory, and (b) per evidence-based medicine there is perhaps some but not a lot of evidence for efficacy. That ought to be encylopedic enough. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 06:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Jim, we are heading in the right direction. Though pseudoscience is not at all primarilly political or social. There are many tomes and peer reviewed papers written on pseudoscience by very neutral and science minded sources. Carroll is one pretty good source, and there are better. Williams et al are pretty much rock solid. Of course, peer reviewed sources are always better. Sure Signifiant part is really to weasel. I can put my hand on a multitude of peer-reviewed papers that use the term pseudoscientific. Sure, specific explanations are the order of the day, but lets make the most of the hyperlinks also. KrishnaVindaloo 06:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

KV, yes, inclusion is good! With proper citation! Hope we're getting there. Take care, Jim Butler^(talk) 06:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

But chiropractic isn't pseudoscientific. So how can it be a good example? Are we only here to say what people wrongly consider to be pseudoscience. That's terrible. How is that encyclopedic? Levine2112 06:55, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

To paraphrase part of the section's opening paragraph, "a notable part of the scientific community" says that it is. The sources cited above in this regard are certainly notable and otherwise fulfil the list's criteria. To exclude it from the list as defined in this way would self-evidently be erroneous and misleading. And Jim Butler's proposed solution to this debate, that acknowledges evidence chiropractic's efficacy in certain circumstances while maintaining the necessity of its inclusion on the list, is to be greatly applauded. --Dorado 07:03, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I just added a few disciplines to the list. I have found lots of support out there for these, and while I don't neccessarily agree with this POV, there is certainly a notable part of the scientific community that agrees with these. Levine2112 07:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Your sources are not verifiable as they stand, being to people and not published works. The fields you have added should not be on the list until verifiables citations are provided. --Dorado 07:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Give me a second. Will you? I'm doing just that. Levine2112 07:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I take it that, by adding new fields and leaving chiropractic in the list, Levine2112 now acknowledges the appropriateness of chiropractic's inclusion? --Dorado 07:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello Dorado. I believe we should try hard to assume good faith here. Levine2112 seems to be working towards agreement, at least in a few of the latest edits. I would also be inclined to be inclusive rather than exclusive as regards the list. Notability is important. That is probably the best way to help readers compare the various pseudoscientific subjects. If they have heard of the subject before, then it is easier for them to build knowledge upon those known subjects and to compare the related issues. If a subject is truly an unnotable pseudoscientific subject then it can be excluded. But also, it will help if the subject has its pseudoscientific elements explained in the article in question. That can be ongoing. KrishnaVindaloo 08:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

PS, I have noticed that there are subjects that chiropractic proponents claim are pseudoscience, and they are criticised for this in the literature. For example, innoculation is slated as pseudoscience by some chiropractors in their defense of the use of homeopathy and acupuncture/power therapies etc. Its fine to watch out for the inclusion of that or immunization into the list. It only shows the more pseudoscientific activities of chiropractic proponents within Wikipedia. Lets keep agendas out of this. KrishnaVindaloo 08:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

KrishnaVindaloo - I agree entirely that agendas have no place in this discussion; however, with this in mind, yours is an interesting interpretation of Levine2112's latest edits. Provocatively adding fields of endeavour to the list with obviously inadequate citations does not suggest a great deal of good faith (or the absence of an agenda) on Levine2112's part.

Further to your second point, I would suggest that anti-vaccinationism is an appropriate subject for inclusion on the list. --Dorado 09:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said, I don't neccessarily agree with these additions, but I found a notable amount of support for their inclusion on this list. I think if we try hard enough we will find that both immunization and anti-immunization belong on this list as there is notable support in the scientific community that each is a pseudoscience. Certainly if you agree that a large portion of the alternative medicine world believes in innoculation to be pseudoscience, then the justification for its inclusion on the list is readily apparent. My only agenda here is equality. This list is highly in favor of an anti-alternative medicine POV. It is also coming from a pure scientific skeptical POV... which is NOT the same as the scientific POV and certainly not the truth. Since you won't allow anyone to delete entries from the list, the only alternative is to add to the list from a different POV. I think in the end, we'll see that given the options your policing has left, 1) this is a fair "Wiki" way to handle this and 2) in our world on infinite opinions, pretty much everything has a notable amount of scientific support to be labelled pseudoscience. Gosh, and to think all I wanted to do when I came to this article was to remove a poor example to give the reader of a pseudoscience. Now - thanks to your guidance - I will be giving the reader so much more. Levine2112 15:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I have no problem with that. Facts are facts. That's what this is all about. Just make sure you have them referenced with reputable sources. --Dematt 15:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Section on "Fields considered pseudoscience..."

I've just changed the section title to "Fields considered pseudoscience by a significant portion of the scientific community". My actual preference would be to call it simply "Fields considered pseudoscience", with a brief paragraph explaining what is meant by that. There are enough astute editors here to argue these impossible-to-precisely-pin-down points. "Significant" is already a term of art in science, and if there's much dispute about it we can add up the number of verifiable (WP:VER) scientists in the world and divide if by the verifiable (WP:VER) number of professional scientists (as opposed to sideline commentators) who have published arguments that a particular field is pseudoscientific. This, while always arguable, might at least have the potential to bring the debates into a range that makes a bit more sense than what's been repeatedly going back and forth recently with respect to this article. "Significant" could readily be negotiated to mean, say, 5% or more of the scientific community worldwide. (We'd of course not only need to roughly count up the approximate number of professional scientists in the world, but also the approximate number subscribing to organizations in a particular area of relevance--no doubt another inevitable point of argment, but at least a criterion to argue about.) Exceptions could be argued for fields that involve specific areas of expertise that have a much smaller pool of professional scientists capable of reasonably "commentating" on these various accusations that come across this page.

The concept of "notable" (which I edited into the first sentence of this section) has become standard on the Wiki. I know it's highly debatable and flexible, but at least it's a standard that has already been worked on by others independently of this article and is acknowledged to be applicable to the way business is done in Wikipedia with the perhaps-idealistic goal of reasonably presenting information to readers.

I fully recognize this is a highly imperfect "science", but folks, I think it's time we bring the standards up to a "higher" or more objective level of argument here. Understanding I may be totally wrong about the particular approach I just proposed, I nonetheless think it's time to use the consensus process to arrive at some more reasonable criteria than we've been using to date. ... Kenosis 04:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Kenosis. The recent research on pseudoscience in general examines pseudoscientific ideas and aspects of various fields. It doesn't generally state a particular subject is "a pseudoscience". Rather there tends to be a statement that a subject is pseudocientific. This is because there are degrees of pseudoscientificness, and there are elements of science and pseudocience in certain fields. For example, Dianetics contains some scientifically credible ideas among the pseudoscientific ideas. There are reliable sources to say that Dianetics is pseudoscientific. I believe, in accordance with the more recent research, this is more appropriate for that section heading. I'll not change it myself, but I propose:

"Subjects considered pseudocientific according to reliable scientific sources"

This is basically how editors are compiling the list, it is helpful for the reader, and it does infer that there can be credible aspects to pseudoscientific subjects. You could say it is a way of softening, but more imporantly it is a move towards clearer explanation of pseudoscientific subjects. KrishnaVindaloo 07:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, most of the citations are not of scientists, but of philosophers (such as Williams and Carroll). This is natural, for this is more of a "philosophy of science" distinction in many ways. Science will test the validity of an idea, but invalid ideas are not necessarily pseudoscientific, they are merely false hypotheses. Philosophy distinguishes betweeen modes of experience, and modes of science, and philosophers tend to talk most clearly about how to determine what is pseudoscience. (See the text of the article: how many scientists are quoted there?)

In addition, as we have noted before, there is no pretense in any of the cases of showing consensus amongst scientists. The earlier wording, "...according to some critics" is more accurate, though I'd welcome an improvement on this that doesn't falsify the nature of the actual sources we are using. Hgilbert 03:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

We are facing a serious question that keeps being pushed away. Are we including anything ever criticized as pseudoscience on this list (in which case one citation is sufficient), or are we trying to show that the bulk of scientific thought is that a field is pseudo-? I would suggest that the current discussion offers strong support for the latter approach. But then we will indeed have to go through case by case and evaluate the evidence in some sort of balanced way, a huge undertaking. I happen to feel that it is the only responsible course (the analogy would be including a variety of names on a list of idiots, based solely upon who has ever been called an idiot). Hgilbert 03:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Hgilbert et al: I just reverted to the most recent variation of using the scientific community as a parameter, recently proposed by FeloniousMonk and apparently also supported by several other editors. It may not be perfect, but we absolutely need to consensus a more reasonably objective set of criteria for this list. Whatever that turns out to be, I totally dispute the weasel-word approach of "by some critics". The collection of editors here is intelligent enough to hash this out and iron this out. Please let's proceed to do this. FM's proposal is the first reasonable one I've seen here in a long time. ... Kenosis 04:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with the new title, as long as we remove any fields for which there are no citations from scientists (this would include the bulk of them). The title "...according to reliable scientific sources" is very impressive but totally misrepresents the current state of citation. Do you wish for it to be so?

If I understand you rightly, you'd like the list to show items for which a consensus of scientific opinion exists. We agree on this. But it is presently not the list's reality, and the present title should reflect this. Hgilbert 04:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Please, let's at least let's find a more objective set of criteria to argue over. Certain guidelines have been established by numerous other editors of WP independently of this article, which can be a reasonable source of objectivity here. We might start there, and if we choose by consensus to do that, the criterion of "notable" is immediately in the mix and we can continue the various arguments on some basis that isn't made up on a darned day-by-day and POV-by-POV basis.

Same with the idea of a "significant" portion of the scientific community. With not too much actual work around here, this can be fairly readily established and argued on the merits of each particular case. For whatever it's worth, the number of scientists in the world is fairly easy to approximate by referencing the various scientific organizations in the world, and just adding them up and rounding off to the nearest whatever. And of course it involves further arguing about that, but at least it's something more rational to argue about than the concept of "some critics", which basically means "if I can find two, I'm in there as a critic of some field I hate."

Anyway, I am positive that the fine minds that get involved in this article can work this out in a comparatively more stable and objective way than has recently been evident. . ... Kenosis 05:02, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Kenosis. Again, there is no way to prove significant portions etc. There is no need for argument whatsoever. If a reliable source states a subject is pseudoscientific, then it can be included if it is notable. It would help to have several sources, as that would help to prove notability. Remember that this article on pseudoscience takes the title - pseudoscience and clarifies it. This means listing the attributes of pseudocientific subjects and explaining them. There are many elements of pseudoscientific subjects already there, and some to be added. But there seems to be a stubborn insistence on showing papers that support a particular intervention to negate the view that a subject is pseudoscience. This is unhelpful and a waste of time. It doesn't matter how much OR we do, it will not change the fact that a subject is considered pseudoscientific by a reliable source. We do need to add more characteristics of pseudoscience in the article. I will provide at least some of that. But it would help if editors started becoming more aware of the nature of pseudoscientific subjects. In fact, the list of pseudoscientific subjects should simply be called that: A list of pseudoscientific subjects. Below that title can be written: This is a list of subjects that are pseudoscientific according to reliable sources. It really is as simple as that. This follows NPOV policy on inclusion of views. KrishnaVindaloo 05:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think there would be very little problem if you changed the name of the section to "Fields with pseudoscientific elements". Then allow one sentence of why and one sentence of why not for each. --Dematt 13:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I saw Dematt's comment after I changed the section title from "with pseudoscientific elements" to "claimed to be pseudoscientific" (no change in current text which is still somewhat rational at present). I don't expect my change to stick for long.

I believe we should continue to argue these points and seek to lay out a framework that will be properly representative of the level of intelligence of the participants in this article. It'll take awhile no doubt, but it's doable. We will need to lay out the criteria for method, properly sourced, organize it so it can be referenced in the future, learn what all the important arguments are including several standard descriptions of the criteria of method, along with Popper, Kuhn, Lacatos, Thagard and Feyerabend, know how and why psychology and sociology can fit in, and so forth. It'll be some work, but more productive in the end than going back and forth on a POV-by-POV basis. ... Kenosis 16:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Simple title, with caveats below

Hi I created this section because I feel it is important and encyclopedic to have a simple title for the section, but with more extensive clarifications below. It is never the case that a field is "a pseudoscience". Some sources may state that, but it requires clarification in this Wikipedia article. It is always more accurate to talk of a subject in terms of its pseudoscientificness. It will also be a good opportunity to explain the variable nature of pseudoscientific subjects and issues. KrishnaVindaloo 05:41, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Immunology was listed

I'm recommending that it doesn't get relisted, unless someone can explain to me why being used in a fashion some consider dangerous is pseudoscientific. i kan reed 15:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Many scientific researchers and doctors have said for years that there is no credible scientific evidence that exists that shows vaccines have caused diseases such as polio to disappear, yet they are tauted to do just that. Seems like a pseudoscientific slam dunk. Whether or not we (the wiki-editors) agree that immuinzation is a pseudoscience is irrelevant. There are notable scienitsts and doctors who can be cited who say it is and therefore by the rules dictated to me on this talk page, immunization certainly has a spot on the list. Levine2112 16:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

There may be a dispute within the scientific community about something, but that doesn't qualify it to be listed as pseudoscience.

• Immunization (Mendelsohn 1984), (Blaylock 2004), (Moskowitz 1991)
• Modern medicine (Mendelsohn 1988), (Coleman)

The section in question says:

The following is a list of theories and fields of endeavor which critics have argued are pseudoscientific, and which a notable part of the scientific community faults as showing characteristics of pseudoscience such as failing to meet the norms and standards of scientific practice in one way or another.

Perhaps we need another section for immunization and modern medicine. I don't want to see criticism of these fields excluded, but we can't say a notable part of the scientific community faults them, as they represent such a small minority. We may as well add Global warming theory to the list, just because a handful of scientists disagree with the mainstream. --Uncle Ed 16:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

We are dealing with more than just a handful of scientists that disagree with Immunology and Modern Medicine. I think we are getting very Western-centric here and are disregarding the POV of the other half of the world of healthcare. Additionally, think of all the alternative medicine practitioners out there who consider Immunology and Modern Medicine to be pseudoscientific. Yet, I have purposefully only sourced MDs to show that this POV exists in the "mainstream" medicine world. I think there is just as much of a notable part of the scientific community that feels these disciplines are or contain elements of pseudoscience as there are who feel this way about chiropractic. I am currently looking for more fine examples to help balance the POV in this section. Levine2112 17:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe Robert Mendlesohn was a pediatrician. He obviously would be considered an expeert in this field if it were a legal question.

I guess there are lots of questionable procedures used in medicine as well. Using antibiotics for childhood ear infections has been controversial for awhile. I suppose the list is long, too. I hate to see immunizations, medicine, and chiropractic on this list, because they all have similar qualities. Perhaps we should limit the list to those that are not controversial and all notable scientists consider pseudoscientific. --Dematt 17:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Seconded (Uncle Ed's point). Can you (Levine2112) provide evidence that a "notable" section of the scientific community is holding out against immunisation? I think your source earlier was a 1984 article - is that it? There may have be (and possibly continue to be) mis-steps along the way with vaccines, but are you seriously suggesting that vaccination doesn't explain the decline in, for example, global polio cases? There's never universal acceptance of any scientific idea (not least since all are provisional and subject to revision), but it'd be wrong to mislead non-technical readers of WP by equating a tiny minority of scientists with active dissent against vaccination within medicine (and, for that matter, irresponsible to a degree given the trouble in the UK regarding MMR). --Plumbago 17:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not suggesting anything. I have only cited three different, well-respected MDs who say that Immunology is or contains elements of pseudoscience. Can I provide evidence that "notable" section of the scientifc community shares in this belief? Well, what do you define as "notable"? Certainly, a great deal of the scientific world are proponents of alternative medicine; many of whom agree with the Mendelsohn's assessments. As for misleading non-technical readers of WP - well, I and many other editors here feel it is just as irresponsible to include chiropractic on this list given the trouble of over-medication and unneccessary risky surgeries in the UK (and the rest of the world for that matter). Levine2112 17:24, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

in that case see WP:POINT. i kan reed 17:28, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I hear you. I do. But I'm not doing this to make a point. (But if one is made as a consequence, so be it.) I just want to make sure that this article becomes more NPOV. As it was, it was very Western-centric as well as only representing the viewpoints of the "scientific skeptical" community... as basically all references prior to my additions came from the works of people whom the scientific skeptic community sides with. Levine2112 17:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Whoever said we had to make a list anyway. Why don't we just get rid of the whole section? Or maybe we could just call the list "Examples of pseudoscience" and list the obvious ones and take off the controversial ones like chiropractic and acupuncture and whatever else has some notable support. Let the reader decide on their own. --Dematt 17:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Reading the section again there's a real mixture of ideas covering the range from complete gibberish that's clearly pseudoscience (modern geocentrism, astrology) all the way through to items such as chiropractice and acupuncture that have pseudoscientific elements, but cannot be dismissed as pure pseudoscience. I still would completely dispute Levine2112's inclusion of immunisation (together with its dubious non-peer reviewed sources), but I can't see how it makes sense for chiropractice to be bundled in with nonsense-on-stilts like pyramidology. To this end, Dematt has a point about ditching the section, but I think it'd be unwise to let nonsense escape appropriate labelling. Cheers, --Plumbago 21:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

IKanReed's bold edit

If this is going to work, we are going to have to limit this list to only the most obvious, well-known and clear-cut examples. I have to admit, IKanReed has found a viable solution which I never thought of. Way to think outside the box! Now we are providing the reader with useful examples and are not trying to push any POV's agenda that will just confuse the reader. I see astrology and phrenology and I think, okay, now I'm understanding what pseudoscience is all about. Levine2112 22:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree, this is good. I think that having this sort of list, with appropriate qualifiers, is much better than having a broadly-populated category:pseudoscience in which no annotations appear. Dematt, I do agree with your cautions about populating this list, and if those cautions are important here, then all the moreso with the category.

But I agree with KV that inclusion is good, if properly qualified. We just have to be clear that it's generally particular critics who deem something a pseudoscience, and the scientific community who comments on evidence, or lack thereof. IMO, it would be OK to compile a list of "alleged pseudosciences", i.e. anything that's been called pseudoscientific by a notable source, as long as we don't overreach and assert that POV by categorization or title. We can just say who the source is, given their reason in a nutshell, and say or link to the scientific majority and significant minority views for each topic. And then be sure not to POV-push by retrofitting the lists's title to something less qualified.  ;-) cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 22:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

But then aren't we just right back where we started? Technically, even Astrology is only an "alleged" pseudoscience. It's just more widely alleged to be pseudoscience than most. Therefore it is a great example. Pseudoscience is a grey term. Not a clear black-or-white matter. If black is science and white is pseudoscience, let's all try to only list items that are so obviously close to white that most people would swear them to be so. Too much grey confuses the issue, and we are trying to make this very technical article as least confusing as possible. Yes? Levine2112 23:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

the point is we keep the list to things people might well understand why they are scientific without doing a ton of research, and cases that pseudoscience is often taught side by side with. Namly UFOlogy, Astrology, and phrenology

and by that I mean, anything where the general public knowledge of the lack of (opinions about) scientific credentials is lacking it should be excluded as a bad example, save face twicei kan reed 01:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree re keeping the list in this article narrow; I just mean we should have an expanded list someplace on WP. In fact as of now we do, sort of: it's called category:pseudoscience. But it's deeply flawed for the very same black-grey-white reasons about which Levine, I and others have expressed concern. This is what WP:CG and other category guideline pages are talking about: there is no annotation in categories. It's not appropriate to assume that Carroll, or Shermer, or Barrett, speak for all scientists. Scientists may have consensus about evidence for a field or lack thereof, but that doesn't mean they necessarily agree with use of the popular-political-pejorative term "pseudoscience". Again, it's the skeptics overreaching that cause other editors to want to remove information. We should just include it, but annotate it properly.

I'd rather see category:pseudoscience turned into a list, with an appropriately NPOV title like "alleged pseudosciences", citing what the specific critics say and why, and then referring readers to the individual topic pages for more information. That's much more informative: Intelligent design is shot through with just about every pseudoscientific fallacy one can imagine, and we can cite that. Chiropractic has certain pseudoscientific elements, but no way is in the same ballpark as ID. A list could be a more NPOV and informative way to compile this information. For comparison of lists and categories, see WP:CLS. Just a thought. Otherwise we should depopulate the cat as we have the list on this page, but I don't think "skeptical" editors would go for that. Why not just go the NPOV route, err on the side of inclusion, but not overreach? As WP:NPOV says, we can present ideas but not assert them. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 01:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. --Dematt 02:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe this is adequate. The section title is now extremely subjective, ambiguous and unscientific, since the only criteria for the list is that a field is well known as such. For example, does the fact that "...more than 500 professors, including the university's two Nobel laureates, have signed a petition opposing the (chiropractic) school and a handful have even threatened to resign rather than teach alongside what they consider a "pseudoscience."" mean that chiropractic is "well known" as a pseudoscience?

In addition, the article now fails to mention subjects such as accupuncture and chiropractic where credible allegations of pseudoscientific principles or practices exist, notwithstanding the existence of evidence to the contrary. In an article concerning pseudoscience, readers are entitled to be informed where such credible and sourceable allegations exist.

I propose there be two lists. The first list, the "obvious" list, which include those subjects where no credible citations can be provided to support their removal. The second list, the "alleged" list, where credible citations can be provided supporting the subject's inclusion, but with disclosure given where, say, some evidence of efficacy exists. As examples I would suggest a subject such as astrology would be on the first list, and accupuncture and chiropractic would be on the second list.

I emphasise again, the second list is for subjects where there are allegations of pseudoscientific principles or practices that are supported by credible sources, but for which other credible sources exist to justify a significant qualification of the subject's inclusion in the list.

The definitional criteria for the lists as set out above are able to be set out objectively, based on the availability (or lack) of credible citations in each case. --Dorado 02:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The FSU case that you are referring to was clearly a railroading act helmed by an anti-chiropractic organization coming in and stirring up the pot. I have pointed to the actual recommendation of an independant consultant for FSU who said that chiropractic is scientific but suffers from a bad reputation held over from a time when the AMA conpsired to crush their competition. The report goes on to recommend a chiropractic program to the school. But, if what you're seeing here is a sign, you can imagine what the efforts of the embittered anti-chiropractic groups were like at the school. I saw some of the propaganda that they spread. It was quite reprehensible. What I find most ironic is that the school's championship football team has one or two chiropractors on staff.

Anyhow, back to the topic at hand - this article and its list of examples. Tell me, what will having this proposed second list accomplish? Is it really to help the reader understand pseudoscience any better or is it to satisfy something within you that feels compelled to point fingers and label things that you don't like? I'm serious. Take a moment to think about it. On countless other articles throughout Wikipedia, the article go into great depth describing the nature of the subject then provides one list of clearcut examples to help the reader better understand the topic. That's the only function that the one and only list on this article should serve. Anything else is just confusing, ambiguous and thus only creates arguments and edit wars. Keep the peace. Levine2112 03:16, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Makes total sense to me, cf. above. The second, "alleged" list is what I think category:pseudoscience should be turned into. Seems like a good compromise to me. The arguments of folks like Carroll can be retained, but properly cited. We also still say what scientists say. I'm most familiar with acupuncture and I think that's a good example of all sides being presented fairly. cheers, Jim Butler^(talk) 03:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

My explanation above as to the intention of the additional list seems reasonably clear, but I will attempt to explain it again. In an article concerning pseudoscience, failing to inform the reader where credible citations exist that suggest a field has pseudoscientific elements is disengenuous and inadequate. The additional list is a mechanism by which readers can be informed of these credible citations, while at the same time acknowledging the existence of contradictory citations and associated controversy. If anything, this would provide additional clarity to the article, reduce ambiguity and provide readers with a better understanding of what is, by its nature, a controversial subject. --Dorado 03:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

But this will only lead to having huge list as pretty much every field out there has some credible citation suggesting that it contains at least some elements of pseudoscience. Why confuse the reader with nit-picking over grey-area opinions. Instead, let's provide the clearest, most notable examples and be done with it. It's not disengenuous nor inadequate. It is succinct and clear. I'm sure there are other places to put those credible citations where they make more sense and don't confuse the article's issue. Levine2112 03:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Misconceptions about FSU/Chiropractic school

Hi Dorado, I have to agree with Jim Butler in that the opinons of anti-chiropractic fundamentalist extremists are not the same as what real scientists think. Please see my post above.

As usual, Levine demonstrates spectacular clarity of vision and professional demeanor.

Just as an FYI, FSU had submitted a 100 page proposal for the program that spelled out the state's need for a chiropractic program, how it fit the state's higher-education mission and how it would be implemented.

The board of FSU did not like the fact a school was voted on and approved by the state legislature and funding was allocated before approval was given by the board of trustees. The signatures and hate-frenzy was stirred up some radical anti-chiropractic extremists under the auspicies of Stephen Barrett (surprise!) and his collaborators including MDs Bellamy and Kinsinger from Oklahoma and others including some who post here at WP. This was to take advantage of the photo-op, stir up emotions, create sensational so-called 'newspaper headlines' which were designed to add fuel to the fire and now claim, like you are doing, that it was defeated because they didn't want to teach alongside the ‘inhuman’ chiropractors. In fact, many of the faculty of FSU were the ones who would be teaching at the chiropractic school. There were many faculty and board members that were OK with the idea of a school. They just didn't like that the legislature was using an end-run around them to do it.

So yours is another example of passing off an opinion as 'fact' so it therefore, it must be pseudoscience. Unfortunately ‘skepticism’ has been hijacked and is now a euphemism for hate-centric bigotry.

BTW, onto which list should I add psychiatry? Steth 03:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Difficulty

I think you will find that it is far harder than you think to objectively agree upon what is pseudoscience than you think. It is far easier to identify characteristic cases of pseudoscience that add breadth to the understanding of the idea(not a complete list). What you get out of trying to get everything, is far far far far too many things. Consider String theory practical physicists and those investigating traditional quantum and relativity theories are quite prone to declaring the idea bunk, but it's pretty outrageous to let it be listed as pseudoscience at this point, as a lot of research, and even basic planning for research, still needs to be done. And you all saw how immunology got added to the list. It's very hard to apply an objective test for pseudoscience to a field without intamately understanding the understanding the principals and central hypotheses of the concept. Well recognized ideas, like astrology, will help establish the guidelines modern science uses to determine validity, and demonstrate how things may fail them. This is not a case where "an expert's" opinion is enough to realisically decry something as pseudoscience. NPOV calls or us to include all views, however minor, so any section which is fundementally dependent on what people think, will result in every branch of science being listed, including things like astrophysics(the creationist people), quantum mechanics(think einstein), etc. It's unmaintainable, and in the end, WRONG. criticisms of types of science should really be left to the article about that type of science, and this article should address the fundemental idea of pseudoscience, thus a list of well known pseudosciences and how they fail the test, should be discussed. i kan reed 03:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Archive

You guys might want to consider archiving some of this. The page is getting rather enormous. --DanielCD 03:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello. I added the Devilly 2005 information to the article. After looking it up, it turned out to be very useful for this article I think. Harristweed 03:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)