Talk:Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic

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Azerbaijan Unassessed

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Somebody there?

Hellooo out there. Anybody in? Cleve, buddy, what did you do? lol--TigranTheGreat 02:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why, I archived our last discussion, of course. -- Clevelander 02:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Karki village

The following line was added to the article with reference to the book by Michael P. Croissant called The Armenia-Azerbaijan Conflict: Causes and Implications:

During the Nagorno-Karabakh War, areas in Armenia's southern province of Syunik were reportedly being shelled from Nakhichevan. Armenia responded by invading and occupying the Karki exclave.

Clevelander, I checked page 81 of Croissant book and found no reference to the village of Karki. Moreover, the book seems to contain no reference to that village whatsoever. Would you be so kind as to present the sources for that information? Grandmaster 09:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is from "Atlas of Conflicts" not Croissant. I don't know where you got Croissant from. -- Clevelander 10:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was not referenced. Atlas of conflicts is not a reliable source, it is a website maintained by some guy, who's not a specialist in the conflict. This source is not a good basis to include such serious accusations, so those 2 lines should be removed. Grandmaster 11:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Andersen who maintains "Atlas of Conflicts" references his sources. Furthermore, Kober, a neutral user, turned me on to his work. Ask him if you have any further questions. -- Clevelander 11:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So what? He himself is not a relaible source. What is his source for information on Karki? Grandmaster 11:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here is his website and here is his page on Armenia. If you scroll down the latter page you can see his sources. -- Clevelander 11:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So what is the source of information on Karki? The original source? Grandmaster 11:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Btw, I cannot find any information about Karki on that website. Are sure it is there? Grandmaster 12:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While Karki is not mentioned specfically, the 1931 border adjustment is. Click here for further information. -- Clevelander 12:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I was asking for the source of these 2 lines:

During the Nagorno-Karabakh War, areas in Armenia's southern province of Syunik were reportedly being shelled from Nakhichevan. Armenia responded by invading and occupying the Karki exclave.

As for that link, the areas allegedly ceded by Armenia to Azerbaijan are marked with light-grey. Karki is not shown on the map at all, and it is located at the opposite end of Nakhichevan, which is not marked with that color. So the information is wrong. Grandmaster 12:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The information regarding "Atlas of Conflicts" is correct and I would expect Nakhichevan not to be colored as it was ceded to Azerbaijan in the 1920s. I can't counter the other edit now as I don't have the Croissant book with me (I'm at work). I'll be willing to discuss it later, though. -- Clevelander 12:25, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Which means that the information about Karki being transfered to Azerbaijan by Armenia has no grounds. The website contains no information about the village whatsoever. As for Croissant, see an excerpt from his book (page 81, to which you were referring):

The domestic political debate in Turkey on the question of the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict was brought to a head in May 1992, when Armenian forces attacked Nakhichevan, the autonomous republic of Azerbaijan separated from it physically by Armenia. While the Turks were dismayed with the outbreak of violence, the assault on Nakhichevan was cause for concern primarily because the enclave represents the only portion of a Muslim state of the FSU with which Turkey is geographically contiguous. Fearing the loss of its physical link with Azerbaijan by an Armenian military victory in Nakhichevan, Turkey was faced with a serious dilemma. In the face of a deteriorating situation in Nakhichevan and amid growing pleas for humanitarian and military-technical assistance from the enclave's leadership, the Turkish government faced a political crisis in the third week of May. With all of the major opposition parties and President Turgut Ozal himself calling for action, Prime Minister Demirel was forced to take a tougher stand vis-a-vis Armenia. On 18 May Demirel pledged unspecified aid to Nakhichevan, and the Turkish Foreign Ministry issued a statement warning Armenia that “faits accomplis created through the use of force cannot be accepted”. Although there was little indication that Turkey was preparing for military intervention in Nakhichevan, Turkish sabre-rattling prompted a provocative response from Russia. In a clear reference to Turkey, Marshal Shaposhnikov of the CIS Joint Armed Forces warned on 20 May that “third party intervention into the dispute [between Armenia and Azerbaijan] could trigger a Third World War”. Grandmaster 12:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing about Nakhihchevan shelling Armenia (it even says that Armenian forces attacked Nakhichevan), no mention of Karki in the whole book. How am I supposed to assume good faith after that? Grandmaster 12:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I told you let me look into it later. It's very possible that I've made a mistake (we're all human) and I meant to reference another source instead of Croissant. -- Clevelander 12:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Fine, then remove those lines until you can reference them, or put back fact tags. Grandmaster 12:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

From now on...

...we are to discuss major changes to the history section before making them. Sorry, GM, sorry Tigran, I'm reverting back to my earlier version. If you guys want to complain about it, bring it to the talk page instead of engaging in a revert war. Thank you. -- Clevelander 10:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, Clevelander, but you don’t own the article. Check WP:OWN. I have a right to edit and make any legitimate additions I deem necessary, and neither you nor Tigran have any right to remove information, based on authoritative sources. I don’t mind discussing any problems, but you never consulted with me when you made edits to the article, so it is strange that you demand now that we should discuss any additions before making them. That’s against the rules, that say be bold in editing. Grandmaster 11:35, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't own the article, but as a rule of thumb and too keep some order, I think it would do us all good if we discuss our edits to the history section first before adding them. I don't see what's wrong with that. My edits yesterday were "tweaks." As you can see, I kept Cornell in there but I restored Walker's information per your suggestion of having them both included. I felt that from here we could discuss and evaluate our differences. -- Clevelander 12:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Care to explain why my changes were removed? What's wrong with information from Alstadt? What the Greeks have to do with Nakhichevan it never had any Greek population? Grandmaster 12:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Because you didn't discuss them on the talk page first. -- Clevelander 12:33, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And when did you discuss quotes from Walker? You just added them and ignored my opinion. Grandmaster 12:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I re-added Walker in compliance with your suggestion that we include both him and Cornell. In any case, I will look over your edits now to see what you've added. We will evalaute them here on the talk page and then add them. -- Clevelander 12:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You added him long before, man. I suggest you restore my version and try to incorporate the additions I made. I don't make indiscriminate reverts like you guys do and always keep legitimate edits. You remove even such simple things as a link to the article about Khan Khoyski, and many others. I added it 5 times already. And restore the tag please, the article is disputed. Grandmaster 12:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

GM, chill. When you were writing this message, I already decided to revert your edits back in favor of you explaining them. Please calm down, we can work this out through discussion. -- Clevelander 12:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Grandmaster's latest additions

Alright, GM, here's your platform, please explain your recent additions to the Nakhichevan article. -- Clevelander 12:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I added two paragraphs:

The Azerbaijanis had a national committee in Nakhchivan as did the Armenians. Jafar Kuli Khan, the leader of the Azerbaijani Turks' National Committee, turned for protection to Ottoman forces and to his relative, the khan of Maku. Nakhchivan’s Muslim population was not interested in being part of an Armenian state whose forces cut off Nakhchivan from the ADR and carried out frequent attacks on border villages. The Armenian threat cemented Azerbaijani National Committee ties to the Ottoman army and the Maku khan and later led them to seek Allied aid against Armenian forces trying to incorporate Nakhjivan into Armenia.

When the British occupied Nakhchivan in January 1919, they regarded the Araz Republic, like the regime in Baku, as merely an Ottoman creation and accorded it no recognition. In the summer of 1919, according to Soviet accounts, an American colonel, James Ray, arrived in Nakhjivan. After discussion with various parties, he suggested to Jafar Kuli Khan that an American governor general oversee the territory. Colonel Haskell suggested the same in a letter of 1 September 1919 to the ADR government. He reportedly traveled through Nakhchivan and Sharur-Daralagez and, in his report to the Peace Conference, supported "neutral zone" status for these areas under an American governor general. In October, Azerbaijan published notices signed by Ray and Haskell that U.S. Army colonel Edmund D. Daily would be the U.S. governor general of Nakhjivan. Daily apparently never assumed the post.

Also from the same book I added the line about Turkish army taking control of the region in March 1920. The source of this information is Audrey L. Altstadt. The Azerbaijani Turks: Power and Identity Under Russian Rule. ISBN: 0817991816. The second paragraph is somewhat repetitive, but I think Alstadt provided more precise and detailed information about the period of British occupation. You might wish to merge the second paragraph with the information previously included in the article. Grandmaster 13:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds credible enough to me and it seems to neutrally represent the Azeri perspective of events. I think it should stay. -- Clevelander 13:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]