Talk:Marco Polo/Archive 1

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Scapegoat for chinese claimers=

We should put a section that its a scapegoat for chinese people claiming that chinese invented things.

introductor of lots of things in Italy

Marco Polo is reputedly the introductor of lots of things in Italy. From memory, ice cream, spaghetti,... Probably, some of these are just trials to give a prestigious history to anonymous events, but could someboy include a more complete list (bracketed between "reputedly", "tradition", "legend"). -- Error 01:47 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

ice cream are from persia(iran)

The "Polo" surname

By Euganeo 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Origin of the Polo surname and its variants

Polo is most definitely an Italian surname which dates back centuries before the birth of Marco Polo. What follows is an historical and statistical look at the surname (it's origins and the spread of the surname today). Indeed it is possible that the surname is present in Croatia, this is not disputed. Nor is it disputed that the surname is present and historically attested to in Corsica (France), Spain and throughout the Italian diaspora. Please read and follow the links and do some of your own research, I have put a lot of effort into ensuring that what is written here is properly referenced and sourced accordingly. I have made use of mainly online services by reputable geneological websites for your convenience. I have endeavoured to ensure that nothing put forward here is mere heresay but can be actually reinforced by attestable fact.

According to the "Origin of Italian Surnames" geneological research site, copyrighted Ettore Rossoni © 2000 "Origine dei Cognomi" (see: http://www.melegnano.net/cognomi/cognomi0014o.htm) and researched by E. Rossoni and Roberto Smacchia; the Polo and Poli surnames are extremely diffuse in Northern Italy. The surname Polo is prevalent in the Veneto region and a secondary pocket of communities in the Salentine peninsula (southern most tip of the Puglia region, nearest Greece) as well as the north-western portion of the island of Sardegna. The surnames are derivatives of the Latin cognomen Paullus or directly from the Latin cognomen Polus. They cite it's most famous family member as being Marco Polo. In various parts of Italy the communities with this surname may have derived them from various toponyms associated with Polo, such as San Polo (PC) - (PR), San Polo dei Cavalieri (RM), San Polo di Piave (TV), San Polo in Chianti (FI), San Polo Matese (CB), etc.

According to most geneological sources, the surname Polo came from the personal name Paolo (English: Paul) which was an Italian version of the Latin Paullus and Polus (see more on this at the end, including the Hall of Names by Swyrich scroll). Look at the Wikipedia article for Paul which cites its origin as "derived from the Roman surname Paulus (Latin: "small" or "humble")".

According to the Dictionary of American Family Names, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0-19-508137-4, the surname Polo is of Italian and Spanish origin, with the Spanish surname as being "possibly of the same derivation as" that of the Italian: which is "from the personal name Polo, a variant of Paolo (see Paul)." According to the Ancestry.com it's population distribution was derived from the 1920 U.S. Federal Census which found 103,832 matches for Polo in their records:

86,630 matches in Historical Newspapers 15,463 matches in U.S. Records Collection 212 matches in U.S. Immigration Collection 1,527 matches in U.S. Census Images and Indexes

(See: http://www.ancestry.com/search/SurnamePage.aspx?html=b&ln=Polo&sourcecode=13304).

As for the De Polo surname, the Dictionary of American Family Names provides the origin of the surname as "Italian: patronymic from the personal name Polo, a northern variant of Paolo (see Paul)." There were 405 matches for De Polo found in the 1920 U.S. Federal Census records.

Studying the results of the Gens Laboratory (Italia) and its search engine (linked to current telephone directory lists in Italy, see: http://gens.labo.net/) and their studies on the origins and distributions of surnames, the results are quite interesting. In Italy the surname Polo is very prevalent, numbering well into the thousands. In-fact, in the Veneto region alone (the region whose capital is Venice, from where Marco Polo's family originates) includes one of the highest concentrations of the Polo surname and is present in over 424 communities throughout Italy, the majority of which are in the Veneto. In the Veneto region, the Polo family numbers well over one thousand, over a hundred of which actually live in Venice. The slight variant of de Polo is also common and present in 68 communities across Italy, around 95% of which is concentrated in the Veneto region.

Other regions with unusually high instances of communities and large families in the hundreds with the surname Polo exist in the southern most tip of Puglia (as indicated by Ettore Rossoni's research) around 300; in the north-western and south-eastern tips of Sardegna, approximately 325; and in Lombardia, particularly around it's capital city of Milano, where there is the highest number outside the Veneto, around 485. In Friuli-Venezia Giulia there are approximately 305. Every single other region in Italy has a presence of a number of Polo families that number no greater than several hundred, with notable groupings in Lazio (150), Liguria (145) and Piemonte (240), where the surname historically originates from after the 11th century. About 335 others are scattered across the rest of Italy. The de Polo family on the otherhand, is present mostly in the Veneto region, with a concentration that numbers around several hundred.

The variant of Poli is much larger than Polo by far. This surname, which has the same origins as Polo, numbers well into the tens of thousands and is heavily concentrated in the northern Italian regions of the Veneto, Lombardia, Emilia-Romagna, Umbria, Toscana, Piemonte and Lazio (particularly in Rome). Poli is prominent in every single other region in Italy, each region having an average of several hundred to a thousand.

De Poli and de Polo share much the same geographical information, dispersion and numbers.

In Corsica a derivation of the personal name Paolo includes Paoli and it is a very common name on the island. In-fact Pasquale Paoli was one of Corsica's most famous patriots. This does not mean that Marco Polo is Corsican. This surname on the island originates with the Tuscan settlers on Corsica whose influence there is such that much of the Corsican language relies on medieval Tuscan rural dialect and outweighs the Genovese influence (Genova ruled Corsica for extensive periods of time). The surname of Paoli is so prevalent in Toscana that it numbers well over ten thousand in that region alone, with at least 500 in Rome and about the same scattered over the entire country. The variant Paolo is not as common but still numbers in the hundreds of thousands across Italy, the largest groupings around Napoli in Campania.

The description below is adapted from the House of Names geneological research work and is also listed in the Hall of Names by Swyrich scroll, see an example at: http://search.swyrich.com/sample_scroll.html

"... Origin: Italian

The distinguished surname Polo can be traced back to the ancient and beautiful region of Piedmont. Although people were originally known only by a single name, it became necessary for people to adopt a second name to identify themselves as populations grew and travel became more frequent. The process of adopting mixed hereditary surnames was not complete until the modern era, but the use of hereditary family names in Italy began in the 10th and 11th centuries. Italian hereditary surnames were developed according to fairly general principles and they were characterised by a profusion of derivatives coined from given names. The most common type of family name found in the region of Piedmont is the patronymic surname, which is derived from the father's given name. During the Middle Ages, Italians adopted the patronymic system of name-making because it perfectly complemented the prevailing feudal system. In Italy the popularity of patronymic type of surname is also due to the fact that during the Christian era, people often named their children after saints and biblical figures. The surname Polo came from the personal name Paolo (English: Paul)..."

Indeed, Polo is very much an Italian surname and has been for a good one thousand years and more. Euganeo 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

To Euganeo, Sure Polo last name is Italian origin, nobody is doubting that.This particular Polo and many Croatians used the Polo last name while living under Venice Rule. In those days latinising the Croatian last mame into POlo and other was all too common. This is well documented as being done by Croats under Venice Rule of Dalmatia in particualr. Names such as Pilic Paulovic became Polo. There is no evidence that the Ventian Polos are Italian in origin, but we have proof to suggest they were Dalmatian and this was written by Italian sources. No Croatian POV. In my view if Italaians wrote that he was Dalmatian ...that is proof enough, its an unbias view. If a Croatian or Slav wrote he was Dalmatian I guess you could call it Croatian POV. In this case the proof is from non Croatians so it has credit. I think the main reason people think Marco Polo was Italian as Venice todays is Italian and they think in those days Venice was Italian only, therfore assume Marco was Italian. This is wrong as you pointed out Venice had many backgrounds, among them Croatians. If Marco was born on Korcula (island was populated by Croats in those days too)i think it would be safe to say he was a Venetian Croat.

PS Iam Montenegrin anyway so i think I look at both sides fairly.

In my view he was Croatian. I think enough evidence is there. What was Coloubus?? What was Napoleon?? Many people say they were Italian but there is proof outthere that for instance Colombus could have been Greek , Spanish or even Portuguse. In Colombus article his origin is doubted as Italian and the same should go for Marco POLO EvergreenEvergreen Montenegro 03:40, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Hello Evergreen,

Next time when posting a reply, please insert four of these ~ on your post so that you sign correctly.

Thank you for your response, however it seems that judging by everything you have written you have completely ingnored all the information I have provided. It is pointless to keep repeating what I have already stated.

Firstly, I do not presume that all "Venetians" during the time of the Venetian Republic were ethnic Italians. I have already stated above that I am very aware of the fact that many "Venetian" citizens were actually Greek, Dalmatian, Christian Albanian and so on. In fact, if you actually read anything I have written you will notice that I gave an example of the Calergi family from Crete, whose original name was "Kalergis" in Greek. They Italianised their surnames and were Venetian citizens. Please read all my statements clearly next time.

Here is what I write above, you obviously did not read it clearly: As a matter of fact I am from the Veneto and I know about the history of my region very well. In fact, as stated in many of my other posts I am an academic in various fields, one of which is Medieval studies with a focus on the Venetian Republic. I am also aware of the fact that numerous Cretan nobels in "Venetian" Greece (such as the Kalergis family) had Italianised their surnames (such as Vendramini Calergi, Capodistria and so on). In fact I have been working on the translation and editing of a translated work from ("stradiotto") Venetian text into English on a series of memoirs involving the Calergi (Kalergis) family on Crete.

I appreciate your "I love Italian people" statement, which is neither here nor there. This is not an "ethnic" debate or a "racial" argument of any sort, it is a point of academic integrity. Integrity which is denigrated each time people attempt to expound theories which are pseudohistorical or not accepted by the mainstream academia.

Columbus (Colombo)? Is generally accepted to be Italian. He himself claimed to be born in the Republic of Genova. Which could be Genoa itself or any of its colonies. There is credence in on possible hypothesis that he was infact of Greek extraction. But that is another debate. (By the way, Christopher Columbus' mother was Susanna Fontanarossa, as Italian as they come).

As for Napoleon. It is absurd to refer to Napoleon as an Italian or Frenchman. He is a Corsican, descended from Italian nobility. This is clearly attested to and easily discovered when reading anything on the man that was Nabolione Buonaparte (Napoleon Bonaparte. Of course, the problems arise when attempting to trace his family's ethnic descent, are they completely Italian or partially "ethnic" Corsican etc... Particularly when taking into consideration that a great deal of Corsicans are descended from Tuscany or Genoa (Italy).

As for the links you provided. I think you will find that these are extremely nationalistic Croatian sites. They are written completely in Serbo-Croatian. They are poorly constructed, very rudimentary, have no academic integrity whatsoever and are completely driven towards one common argument and have all the hallmarks of a website empowered by a centre-right, politically charged agenda.

One of the links also claims the following: The Croatian Census of Population for 1948 lists DEPOLO on the Island of Korcula with 40 individuals in 15 families...

This is ridiculous in light of the figures I have provided above. Where tens of thousands (when including all the surname variations of Polo, it increases into hundreds of thousands) of Italians in Italy have this surname according to the current census. Therefore, using the same logic as the websites you provided, I could very easily estimate that the chances of Marco Polo being ethnically Croatian stands at approximately 300,000 to 1 (in favour of Italian origin). But I would not lower myself to such petty conclusions.

I find it deplorable that these sorts of pseudohistorical websites are being used as a source of information on academic matters. The problem is further compounded when people such as yourself are easily persuaded into believing the rhetoric of a group inclined towards racial-division and the immoral appropriation of cultural figures from other ethnic communities.

Please, Evergreen, consider what I have written above. Read all of the details before blindly believing what some Croatians have written. Consider why these Croatians are writing these sorts of theories. The websites for example have no academic qualities whatsoever. In-fact, all of my Croatian colleagues (with the exception of one or two Slovenians in Melbourne) who are against these sort of right-wing pseudohistorical writings by less-informed Croatians. Many of us are trying to help people to understand that they themselves can find out the truth by going to libraries, studying up of their own accord and not just believing all the rubbish published on the internet. If you follow the academic studies on Marco Polo all the way through and check out the most recent articles published in the respected Journals (this is where all the most avant-garde theories are published for the international academic readership), you can find for yourself that there is little merit in believing that Marco Polo was ethnically Croatian.

There is a lot of evidence that shows he was born on the island of Korcula, that is fair enough. But that does not qualify as evidence in and of itself that Marco Polo was an ethnic "Croatian" (then the next question arises, where one would essentially need to define what a "Croatian" was at that time and is now in relation to the "Croatians" of that time). As I've stated earlier, the fact that people of a particular surname occur on a very small island (and only a very small number of these people exist on the island), this does not qualify as evidence that all people with these surnames are from that location.

There are a very high number of people with the surname Paoli and Paolo (variants of Polo in fact) on the island of Corsica (France). In fact there are more people with the surname Polo or variants of it on Corsica (France) than there are on Korcula (Croatia). But that does not mean that Marco Polo was Corsican.

In the end it is your prerogative to believe whatever it is you want to convince yourself of. The conversation is pointless in that most people who subscribe to a right-wing, racist viewpoint are more than likely going to be extremely difficult to have a decent conversation with that has academic integrity. I am not suggesting that you are in any way a right-wing thinker. What I am saying is that you have been easily persuaded by people who have an agenda which is in line with these types. It is saddening to see more and more young Slavs from the Balkans believing the writings of completely unqualified people who expound the most pseudohistorical of theories. In future, take a good look at the those sites you quoted. Then look at the reasons behind why these sites exist and who the people are that operate behind the scenes. These are not true Croatian scholars, they are an embarrasment to every respectable Croatian I have ever met. Euganeo 00:28, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure Polos can be found in Italy. The Polo and De Polo from Korcula and Dalmatia have no Italian origin. They simply took up the name under Venetian rule of the area. The chances of Marco Polo being Italian is 1,000 to 1...trust me. I think most people agree he was born on Korcula and that he has possible Croatian origin. Korcula was Croatian settled and the stories of Marco Polo on the island are very common, not just in records but word of mouth. I guess it could be possible he was even Albanian hahhaha, but form what I have seen and read I would say he was Croatian and Slavic origin. He does'nt even look Italian to me according to picture on the web. He looks Slavic.

Evergreen Evergreen Montenegro 03:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to tell you, but:

"Marco Polo is said to be born in Korcula (most people agree)"
"The island at the time o--Giovanni Giove 14:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)f his birth was mostly Dalmatian Croatian settled (most ppl agree)."

You can't say that "most people agree" because this is not true. There is no consensus and most of the people who agree usually have a strong Croatian national POV. GhePeU 09:19, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Like I said POV aside. Iam Montenegrin and don't need to push Croatian POV. I have looked at both sides. To me he's Croatian END OF STORY

Viva Forza Italia Evergreen Evergreen Montenegro 03:43, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for reinforcing one of my main points, GhePeU. I fear that people such as "Evergreen" show themselves for what they are. "Viva Forza Italia" he says... Well, Evergreen, it's absolutely not surprising that you support a centre-right party in coalition with a separatist league.

Furthermore, I think that it is pretty obvious to everyone that this discussion with Evergreen is absolutely pointless. Your arguments and comments are childish and waste everyone's time. You treat the Wikipedia as though it is some sort of internet chat room.

As I said before and I reiterate once again: In the end it is your prerogative to believe whatever it is you want to convince yourself of. - Euganeo 23:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Attention: Evergreen known for previously vandalising the Marco Polo discussion page

Attention: Please note that the above discussion (under both titles, The "Polo" Surname and To Euganeo) was between myself Euganeo and the anonymous vandal Evergreen (Evergreen Montenegro1). He appears to have a history of vandalising the Marco Polo page and other pages. He has recently completely deleted all the comments that I have made and all the work I have put into carefully discussing this matter in a reasonable academic fashion. Other users have made attempts to reinstate the material that Evergreen has been deleting.

It was an extremely difficult and time consuming effort done by various wiki Admin and users to reinstate the original comments. Evergreen then proceeded to delete only his own messages.

After this (Evergreen Montenegro1)has insisted on baiting me into another argument with his pseudohistorical comments and his insults. Evergreen makes a habit of refusing to sign on with a proper account with Wikipedia and continually hides behind the veil of his IP address (Evergreen Montenegro1). I had attempted to come to some sort of a truce with Evergreen whereby he would leave my comments alone and stop deleting them and he would be free to delete only his own comments.

If anyone wants to see the original comments that were made and the strange manner in which Evergreen has been behaving, please look at the History tab above to see a log of all the edits he has made. This is vandalism. You are not meant to delete another User's comments. He had deleted all of my comments in discussion with him. This is unethical and makes it look as though he has something to hide. Why is he trying to cover his tracks and silence me?

Please take note of the following links and warnings against him to cease otherwise he will be blocked. Take note also of the history on his IP discussion page (as he has not registered with Wikipedia) at this (Evergreen Montenegro1). He has deleted all the other User's comments on his talk page to hide that he has been warned before. New warnings have been posted by other Users since Evergreen has continued to expound his nationalistic Croatian ideologies on the Wikipedia.

Vandals will not be tolerated on Wikipedia. Please inform yourselves by checking out the Wikipedia Blocking Policy.

Furthmore, pseudohistorical and jingoisitic agenda-driven POV postings and arguments are to be kept in the discussion area. But to be devoid of insults and petty bickering. In the past I have attempted to discuss this in a civil manner with Evergreen but this has been to no avail. Please be warned of the activities and subversive agenda behind any interaction you may have with Evergreen. He is essentially a vandal but also a proponent of pseudohistorical theories which he wishes to enforce on others via intimidation. Euganeo 00:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

(Evergreen Montenegro1), you have insisted upon vandalising this page continuously. You have spent numerous amounts of history edits to ensure that your vandalism is perpetuated. I do not care about your POV or your pseudohistorical arguments. Your agenda is well known to everyone that has been trying to stop you vandalising the Wikipedia.

You have accused me of deleting your posts and I never have deleted any of your posts. They have been deleted by other Admin and WikiUsers who are attempted to stop you flooding the discussion board.
You posted an essay on the discussion board. It was deleted by someone else. Not me. Look at the history before you make defamatory accusations.
You insist I delete the Attention post above. I will only delete it once you stop vandalising the site and leave the Wikipedia alone.
You must sign your postings correctly and stop deleting the "unsigned" markers that are put to your posts. These are put there to ensure in all fairness that everyone knows who is posting what without having to search through the Wiki history pages.

Euganeo 03:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

DELETE THIS PLEASE Evergreen Montenegro1 06:38, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I have deleted the 1 posts Evergreen Montenegro1 03:27, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll start cleaning up this page as soon as I get a chance. Take care Euganeo 05:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Croatian

What does it matter how Marco Polo is spelled in Croatian?Renke

Supposedly he is Croatian... Adam Bishop 18:44, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Actually it was Dalmatia. And Dalmatia then was Venetian. So much for public education in Croatia! it's as bad as ours in the U.S.! Wetman 21:44, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Actually you're just reading some overzealous blather from a user who isn't even from Croatia, the IP was from an American ISP. :) Once we remove silly misinterpretations, there is reason to believe that the family came from Curzola, and that they weren't Italic but Slavic. --Shallot 21:56, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

This tradition is dubious, there are documents signed by Polo family in Venice since 971). By the way Curzola inhabitants were not at all Slavs, in XI century they requested help from Venice against Slav incursion. --80.180.172.153

That's definitely not a reason to censor it all. --Joy [shallot] 10:49, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's not censorship, just a correction.

Uh-huh. And the tidbit above is supposed to be the rationale? Is there actually proof that those were all the same Polos? It can really go either way and we'll probably never know, AFAIR, so it is blatant censorship to remove all references to the issue. --Joy [shallot]

Why did you re-add "Mate" and "Nikola"? Do you want to add "Mathieu" and "Nicolas", or "Matthew" and "Nicholas" too?

I just reverted the whole bad-faith edit. Those names can go if there are no historical records mentioning those versions. --Joy [shallot]

Reverted "from Croatia" because it is historically incorrect. AFAIK, at the time Korcula was part of the independent Republic of Venice, and Marco was a Venetian citizen. Saying that he was "from Croatia" is as incorrect as saying that he was "from Italy" or "from Yugoslavia". The fact that he was born in Korcula which is now part of Croatia is dutifully noted in the article.Jorge Stolfi 13:38, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Euganeo 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC) What follows (in reference to discussions on Marco Polo being from Korcula) is historically incorrect, has no academic integrity and is pseudohistorical. Citing the fact that there are migrants in Argentina who declare they are Croatian and with the surname de Poli, is neither here nor there and in-fact diminishes the accuracy and scholarly discussion that Wikipedia should be all about. Read it with a grain (or kilogram) of salt. Euganeo 05:06, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Pseudohistory, just for the amusement sake

http://www.ikorcula.net/marcopolo/Pilic_Polo_Marko.htm

plese read, the view is backed by non Croat sources Evergreen Montenegro1 03:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

POLO-PILIC, MARCO Croatian Adventurer

The Marco Polo Coat of Arms includes four chickens. In Italian, Polo means chicken or fowl; in Croatian Pilich means chicks or chickens. Accident or coincidence? The Arms are registered in Dalmatia.

Henry S. Hart in his book, Venetian Adventurer: Marco Polo, states, "These merchants were Maffeo and Nicolo Polo, sons of one Marco Polo, a descendant of an old Dalmatian Family which had come from Sibenik, Dalmatia, and settled in Venice in the 11th Century." Hart goes on to say, "The crews of the Venetian ships were freemen, so many of them Slavonians (Croatians) from the Dalmatian Coast that the long dock by St. Mark's Square was and is known as the Riva degli Schiavoni (Slavonian-Croatian)." Marko Polo was the greatest explorer of all time. More significant than Columbus, he opened to Europe all of Asia, including China, which in turn prompted the discovery of America. Marco Polo had a home on the Island of Korcula in Dalmatia, then a shipbuilding and merchant center of Dalmatia. The merchant and the noble class in Dalmatia did use two names, one Latin-Italian as citizens of Venice and their own Croatian name in their own circles. Bogdanich became Bogdaneo, Mladinich-Mladineo, Arnerich-Arneri and Glavinich-Capogrosso. Some simply used the Latin-Italian meaning of their name, such as Cvietkovich-Florio, Lupis-Vukasinovich or Polo-Pilich.

Genealogy The most prominent researcher and historian of Marco Polo, Sir Henry Yule, In his book Ser Marco Polo 1903, John Murray, London drew a genealogical chart of the Polo Families on pages 5O6-507. Marco's daughter, Moreta, married Dolfln; daughter, Fantina, married Bragadin. Vinko lvancevic in his article "Stone Carved Coats of Arms on Korcula" in Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences, No. 381-1978 has the Illustrated Coats of Arms of Dolfin and Bragadin. On the same, the wife of Marino Gradenigo chooses as her executors, "My mother Dona and my uncle (Barba) Ser Marco Polo." Gradenigo Coats of Arms are also carved in stone on Korcula. She also used the term Barba for uncle, this is Dalmatian dialect for uncle. Zio means uncle In Italian. Bragadin is cited on page 125 In History of Medieval Croatia by Guidescu as a Croatian. Marco's genealogy also listed a brother married to a Sagredo-this Sagredo is registered in the Dalmatian nobility and states In German: "Welches aus Sebenico stammt" or originated in Sibenik. It is significant in his genealogy the association with Korcula and Dalmatia. The Croatian Census of Population for 1948 lists DEPOLO (De-of Polo) on the Island of Korcula with 40 individuals in 15 families and the city of Drnis, Dalmatia approximately 20 kilometers from Sibenik (the origins of Polo) has over 25 families with more than 130 individuals named PILICH. Polo is found in only two families far to the north. Courtesy of the Croatian Genealogical and Heraldic Society.

As per discussion on the Usenet groups:

From: Geos - view profile Date: Tues, Nov 2 2004 4:03 pm Email: "Geos" <no.s...@libero.it> Groups: soc.culture.croatia, it.politica, it.cultura.storia

"Finellach" <krunoslav.raki...@hi.htnet.hr> ha scritto nel messaggio news:cm8n4b$hsd$1@ls219.htnet.hr...

> Geos wrote: > > Tell me, my friend, is this the "theory", you are talking about? > > http://www.ikorcula.net/marcopolo/Pilic_Polo_Marko.htm > Yes.

Well, the first think is that chicken in italian is pollo and not "polo". Polo is a Venitian word for "Paul". This simple evidence breaks one of the bases of your theory.

--Purger 13:54, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

skeptic side

The skeptic side is somewhat overplayed in this article, IMHO. The simplest explanation for Marco's omissions is that, as he is said to have said, "he just didn't tell even half of what he saw". Also: chopsticks may be a notable feature of Chinese culture for modern restaurant-goers, but for someone like Marco (who, like europeans of the time, ate with his hands) it probably seemed an insignificant detail, especially compared to things like armies and money, and the much stranger things that he did report. Ditto for writing -- to Marco, who apparently was illiterate, Chinese writing would not have seem any different than Greek, Hebrew, or Arabic, which were no news to his Venetian audience. As for Chinese foot-binding, it may not have been a pervasive custom, or (being a strictly private familiar thing) it may have been outside of his sight. Finally, one should note that Marco visited the court of a Mongol ruler 800 years ago, so one shoudl not assume that the customs he met there were the same as those of the Han dinasties 300 years later. (Think how much Europe changed in 300 years). And as for the "careful record keeping": even if we assume that he was as important to the Khan as he claimed, he still was probably one among thousands of courtiers and foreign merchants in Kublai's court. Anyway, c'mon, there are more important things about this subject than "Croatian vs. Venetian" or the skeptics viewpoint...Jorge Stolfi 19:59, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Marco Polo doubting Thomas'

In the article for Marco Polo, I would like to add a topic in response to the section questioning the validity of Marco Polo's story.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Polo#Did_the_trip_really_take_place.3F)

(quoting from the article)

"While most historians believe that Marco Polo did indeed reach China, in recent times some have proposed that he did not get that far, and only retold information he had heard from others. Those skeptics point out that, among other omissions, his account fails to mention Chinese writing, chopsticks, tea, foot binding, or the Great Wall. Also, Chinese records of the time do not mention him, despite the fact that he claimed to have served as a special emissary for Kublai Khan—which is puzzling, given the careful record-keeping in China at that time."

In response to these arguments I would like to add a topic to link off of this:

[Keep in mind, that Marco Polo arrived to China when it was under Mongol rule (specifically Kublai Khan). What would later become Beijing had just been sacked and destroyed (and was rebuilt as the new Mongol capital of Khanbaliq. This would have been akin to discoverying Japan for the first time right after it was hit with a nuclear bomb in 1945. Must've given off some strange impressions. Then too, Mongol invasion of Europe was imminent, and expeditions of this type would have been valued as much for its intelligence as it was for its material interest. Still, given these circumstances, Marco painted an intriguing picture of medieval China to what was then Dark Age Europe.]

Great Wall of China- although the original Great Wall was started in the Qin dynasty, the bulk of the Great Wall as seen today was created during the Ming Dynasty; long after Marco Polo's journeys there. At the time, the walls may not have been impressive enough to warrant "Great Wonder" status, and may not have been that different from other great barriers constructed throughout the Classical and Ancient world (like Hadrian's wall). Plus, the Great Wall was meant to keep the Mongols out; not something the occupiers (Mongols) would entertain outsiders with [It would be like the Allies turning the Atlantic Sea Wall of WWII into a historical monument. It should be noted that all of the Great Wonders of the Classical World were destroyed except for the Pyramids of Giza whose mere size was its defense. A military fortification at that time, even a major one like the Great Wall, may not have been reason enough to present as a national treasure.]

Tea - because no records state exactly when tea became popular and mainstream throughout China, it is quite possible Marco did not have any in his time there [amazing to think of a time in China when tea was not in every household, but there must have existed a time- why not later]. Also, tea may not have been part of the Mongol's custom, and thus never offered it to Marco Polo. Finally, tea may have still been in its infancy- perhaps just leaves in water; and not have developed its distinct taste that fueled future wars over.

Foot binding- as strange and exotic as this idea may be to westerners now, this may not been a topic that either the Mongols or Marco Polo cared to talk about. It was a practice done to young Chinese girls, and may just have never entered the conversation when Marco met with the Khan leaders. It also may have been seen by Marco and just not noteworthy enough for him to mention.

Chinese writing- it is almost definite that Marco saw Chinese writing in his travels there; although in medieval China, the writing was most probably only for scribes, and business and government documents. Similar to Europe, only the educated needed to read at this time, and most people probably got around fine without it. [There were not signs over every store and restaurant like the modern world, and few newspapers if any]. There is also the complexity of Chinese characters which is surely why Marco did not learn the language.

Chopsticks- of all the items noted that Marco Polo neglected to write on, this is actually the most notable since it definitely existed and was used at the time, and it is noteworthy enough to describe considering how different it is to western utensils. However, it could be that the Mongols did not adopt this practice and used common or similar utensils as westerners; unlike the Chinese.

(quoting from the article)

"On his deathbed, a priest begged Marco to confess that he had lied in his stories. Marco refused, insisting, 'I have not told half of what I saw!'

Although his deathbed remarks may not be true, it is entirely possible Marco did not talk about much of what he saw in his travels. As two different cultures as they could be, maybe he just did not remember to write everything in his book Il Milione. The original, itself, did not survive and may also include lost writings not included in the translations.

Acefox

---

Another defense to Marco Polo's journey is that the only arguments that discredit it are what he missed describing: chopsticks, foot binding, writing, etc. There are no arguments whether anything he said was factually wrong. Meaning, that if he did lie and make up the story he was highly accurate in describing it. Given an entire book on it, it seems impossible he could have been accurate about making it all up by coincidence. Perhaps the original source of the criticisms at the time did not entirely trust him because he may have been known to exaggerate stories. His critics may have also been jealous or competitors. In his defense, even if he did exaggerate, the subject was more interesting than his story. --Acefox 20:37, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism

I have just reverted a piece of vandalism on the article. 21:46, 21 October 2005 80.73.209.215

Evergreen insists on vandalising this page, please be wary. He has been deleting my postings and those of others where-ever unsigned IP notices have been placed. This is to cover a lengthy history of vandalism he has perpetrated on this dicussion page and others. Check out the discussion section on Evergreen to see previous warnings he has been issued. Checking the history there will also reveal previous warnings by users which he has deleted.

Euganeo 04:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Apologies to User:80.73.209.215, a vandal has deleted you post and I have reposted it for you here. The vandal is the one I've mentioned above who will not stop destroying this page. See: Evergreen for details.

Euganeo 01:30, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE DELETE THIS POST Evergreen Montenegro 03:12, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

I cannot delete the above discussion under "Vandalism" because it is a valid topic started by another user. As Wiki Admin have pointed out, all comments must stay here and this includes warnings and so on. Take care (and please stop deleting other User's comments) Euganeo 23:07, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Il Milione

Benjamin Colbert states in his introduction to the Wordsworth edition of "The travels.." (ISBN 1-85326-473-3) that "To some, Polo earned the nickname of Il Millione, Marco 'Million', and a reputation for exaggeration, or worse, as a teller of tall tales." This text also mentions nothing about the book having the name Il Milione or that the name derives from Marco's family name. Can someone provide a source for the statement here that "His travels are written down in Il Milione ("The Milione", from Polo's family nickname Emilione, or The Travels of Marco Polo)." Seabhcán 20:08, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

This hypothesis is now accepted by many Italin scholars and was first proposed by L.F. Benedetto.

Bibliography: Benedetto, L.F., "Perché fu chiamato Milione il libro di Marco Polo", in «Il Marzocco», Firenze, 14 Settembre 1930 and "Ancora del nome Milione", in «Il Marzocco», Firenze, 16 novembre 1930, cited in Zorzi, Alvise, "Vita di Marco Polo veneziano", Rusconi Editore, Milano, dicembre 1982. GhePeU 13:50, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

please keep deleted

THANKS

Disambiguator

I was actually searching for the game Marco Polo that's played in swimming pools... shouldn't this topic be split in two?

The name Marco Polo was also given to a children's game (Marco Polo). Mark ¹ 7 July 2005 03:58 (UTC)

Improvement drive

Spice trade has been nominated to be improved by Wikipedia:This week's improvement drive. Come and support the article with your vote!--Fenice 06:08, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Marco Polo's book

Does a translated version of his book "Descriptions of the world" exist online? no

PBS program reference

Feiler, Bruce. "Walking the Bible" - PBS HDTV program, March 25, 2006. Bruce Feiler, author of Walking the Bible (book) (ISBN 0380807319) is shown in a tv program of the same name. He goes into an internet cafe to research information about Mount Ararat in connection to Noah's Ark. Video of Wikipedia's entry on Marco Polo is shown while Feiler's voice over explains that Marco Polo visited Mount Ararat in 1254. The on-screen video of the Wikipedia article is not making that claim however, it is showing that Marco Polo was born in 1254. The Marco Polo article does not even mention Mount Ararat directly, though it does mention that Marco Polo traveled in the general area of the mountain.

The proof of Dalmatian origin

A 14th century document linking Marco Polo with Dalmatia

A copy of the 14th century British Museum Additional MS 12475 linking Marco Polo with Dalmatia. Line against shield with 4 birds "(P)olo, questi veneron orrigamente de dalmatia". Polo, this man originally came from Dalmatia.

Document is presented to the Marco Polo Centre Korcula - Croatia on Sept. 7th 1998 by James A. Gilman on behalf of Europa-Youth Evergreen Montenegro1 03:28, 31 May 2006 (UTC) DONE

I'll merge this post into two (or three) separate discussion topics just for Evergreen Montenegro1 and I as per our private discussions on User_talk:Euganeo. Thanks Evergreen. Euganeo 05:31, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Italian view

Marco Polo(c. 1254-1324), Italian traveller and author, whose writings gave Europeans the first authoritative view of life in the Far East. Polo was probably born in Venice, although he may have been born in Venetian Dalmatia on the island of Curzola (now Korčula), off the Croatian coast, where his family originated. His father Nicolò and uncle Maffeo were Venetian merchants and business partners who had commercial interests in Constantinople (now İstanbul) and the Crimea. .Read More

www.greatitalians.com

Please note above is cut and paste from the net, unbias view. Evergreen Evergreen Montenegro 03:48, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

scepticism

I also feel that sceptical side is overplayed in the article. Few researchers doubt it.

Lack of mention of Marco Polo in Chinese documents suggests that Polo family over-played their role and had no significant position in Khan's court.

In "travels' it is also evident that Polo was usually an outsider to customs of many countries he visited. He likely had little insight into everyday life of Chinese, which may explain no mention of e.g. tea.

He is also very detailed on certain topics and omits others, apparently his personal interests. Decriptions of trade goods and game animals and birds of Asia are accurate and first-class.

Jurek

you made a mistake!

Marco Polo was an Italian merchant not a Venetian trader.

no he wasnt

Was he Croatian???

Marco Polo (1254 ? - 1324) was a famous explorer, who opened Europe to Asia, including China. Henry S. Hart in his book "Venetian Adventurer: Marco Polo" (Oklahoma, 1967) states that Marco Polo was "a descendant of an old Dalmatian family which had come from Sibenik, Dalmatia, and settled in Venice in the 11th Century." Hart then goes on to say, "The crews of the Venetian ships were freemen, so many of them Slavonians (Croatians) from the Dalmatian Coast, that the long quay by St. Mark's was and is known as Riva degli Sciavoni (Slavonian = Croatian)." Marco Polo was buried in a Slavic quarter in Venice, near the Riva degli Sciavoni (or "Riva od Hrvatov", according to Croatian sources). Especially important is Marco Polo's Coat of Arms which includes four chickens. In Italian, Polo means chicken or fowl (written as pollo in Italian). In Croatian Pilich means chicks or chickens. Accidnet or coincidence? This is a question raised by dr Adam Eterovic, distinguished expert in Croatian heraldry.

As indicated by dr Eterovic, the merchant and the noble class in Dalmatia did use two names, one Latin-Italian as citizens of Vencie, and their own Slavic name in their own circles. Bogdanich became Bogdaneo, Mladinich - Mladineo, Arnerich - Arneri, Glavinich - Capogrosso. Some simply used the Latin - Italian meaning of their name, such as Cvietkovich - Florio or Fiorini, Vukasinovich - Lupich, Pilich - Polo, etc.

The Croatian Census of Population for 1948 lists DEPOLO on the Island of Korcula with 40 individuals in 15 families. Also the City of Drnis near Sibenik has over 25 families with more than 130 individuals named Pilich. How about Croatian Marco Polo?

A British historian James A. Gilman founded "The Institute of Marco Polo" on the island of Korcula, believing that this was the place where he had been born. See [Gregory Peroche], p. 49.

I would like to thank Adam Eterovich for permission to use material from his publications as well as for personal communication.

Sources and commentaries (see Eterovich's booklet for more details):

Genealogie de Nobili Veneti, Brit. Museum, Ms. 1155, 1679: "Polo clan originated in Sibenik, 1033" Biografia Universal Antica e Moderna, 1878, Venice: "Polo family came from Dalmatia" Dizionario Universal di Geografia, Storia e Biografia, 1878, Milano: "Marco came from Dalmatia" Dolcetti Giovanni; Il Libre D'Argent delle Famiglie Venete, Nobili Cittadine e Popolani, 1922, Venice: "Polo origins from Sibenik in 1033" Ida von Dueringsfeld; Aus Dalmatien, 1875: "Marco born on Korcula" Giovanna Monticola; La Vita Dal Dogi, 1900, Citta di Castelo: "Polo of Dalmatia became nobility in 1381" La Vita Dal Dogi, 1522, Venice: "Polo family came from Dalmatia" Storia Universal Italiana, 1878, Milano: "Polo family came from Dalmatia" Jules Verne; Viaggi di Marco Polo, 1884, Milano: "Polo family came from Dalmatia" Sir Henry Yule; The Book of Sir Marco Polo, 1903, London: "Polo originated in Sibenik in 1033

note the above is cut and paste from the net, unbias view with references listed. Evergreen Montenegro 03:13, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You know perfectly well how to register an account here. It is easier than editing text. You have deleted my posts again!!! Why do you insist on deleting all my posts? This has been going on for too long. You insist on deleting other people's posts and you have been getting away with it since June 2005. It is clearly visible in your personal history. How many times to I have to ask you to stop ruining my edits. You just can't go around deleting people's stuff. I have tried to reason with you. But you deleted my posts again!! Stop vandalising. Euganeo 03:52, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

That is ridiculous. As I stated in my posts if you read them clearly before you started deleting them, I clearly stated that I am fully aware of the Italianisations of surnames in the various colonies founded by the Venetians, the Genoese, etc. I clearly pointed out the changes to such surnames as the Kalergis nobel (Orthodox Greeks from Crete) family who started spelling the name Calergi. However, it was widely known that they were Greek. It was merely a method of spelling their surname utilising the Italian manner of lexiconographic association and retaining orthographic standardisation. I have studied the history of the Venetian Republic extensively. If you read my posts carefully you will realise that I am aware of all these things. My main point is that all this evidence that you have is pseudohistorical. Furthermore, there are a number of cities in Istria for example which were depopulated in the 16th century and then re-populated by nobel Greeks from the various islands under Venetian influence. Many of these people Italianised their Greek surnames and continued on living in Istria for many centuries. And yet this does not mean that all Istrians in those cities are of Greek descent, however the likelihood is much higher because of the history of those cities. I have discussed this all before. Discussions with a vandal such as yourself are a waste of time.

If you look at your own page you have been warned two more times by Wiki Admin to stop vandalising!

Euganeo 23:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Please delete argument This is not valid discussion...this is argument Evergreen Montenegro 03:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

According to dr Filippi

Please note that Dr. Živan Filippi is actually of Slavic descent, his surname is an Italianised version of Filipec. His ideas and theories are considered pseudohistorical and serving a particular pro-nationalist Croatian agenda. He is not regarded by both Croatian and Italian scholars as having merit. Euganeo 02:04, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

(Italian writer)- Marko Polo and Korcula by dr. Zivan Filippi Korcula and the Polo Family

The 13th century was the time when Europe lived in constant conflict between its town-states, which were still preoccupied with the Crusades. It was a time when numerous armies were crossing European soil, destroying foreign towns and killing off their inhabitants. This was a time of poor living conditions, when food and clothing were lacking, and when European inhabitants did not know much about raw materials and agricultural skills. They had no knowledge of coal, oil, paper, gunpowder, compasses, coffee, potatoes, corn, tomatoes, tabacco...all the things without which the life of contemporary man would seem inconceivable.

But while political instability and economic poverty were limiting the life of the average European, reducing it to pure survival, the stability of the Roman Catholic Church - in spite of all dynastic struggles and doctrinarian rigidity, often with perilous consequences - at the same time opened to him spiritual perspectives, giving hope and laying down the structural base for cultural development. This was the time of the most splendid Gothic building, as for example the cathedral of Chartres, begun in 1294; of Reims in 1210; of Salisbury, erected in 1220. One of the most significant political events was the proclamation of Rudolf for Holy Roman Emperor, who managed to spread the influence of the Habsburgs to Austria, thus laying the foundations of the state which would, for the next five centuries, represent the bulwark of European culture.

In that interplay - of the material and the spiritual, of violence and reconciliation, a mixture of awareness and dream - an unique position was to be held by that small Italian town-state, called Venice. Built on an island archipelago, near the mainland, it looked like an enchanted vision which emerging like Aphrodite from the Adriatic Sea. But Venice was not an apparition. Built in stone in the magnificent style of the Middle Ages with emphasized Byzantine elements and connected by a network of channels and bridges, it manifested the power of a trading and maritime force, spreading its influence across the Adriatic aquatic surface, and over to the Mediterranean as far as Constantinople itself, which fell into its hands in 1202.

The town and island of Korcula was unprotected, and indeed there were many who fought for it at that time because of its strategic position on the maritime trade routes and also because of its geographical configuration which makes it ideal for the refuge of war ships and merchant galleys. For these reasons Korcula was unlikely to escape the powerful arm of Venice. The Croat population of the island and the town of Korcula tried hard to resist the intensions of the Venetian Republic. In order to hinder Venitian plans and protect their island community, the Korculans adopted their communal statute in 1214. That statute, the oldest legal document in this part of Europe, codified the whole life of the town and the island and, in many of its decrees, set an example of the European proportions. Numerous decrees regarding maritime law, the abolition of slavery, the protection of the environment etc. witness to a high political and cultural level in Korcula at that time; though it was living as were other Dalmatian towns in the 13th century as well, in the danger due to the avaricious appetites of the powerful forces around it. The Korcula statute protected Korcula from the authoritarian reign of Venice, but at the same time offered Korcula Venetian protection from other possible aggressors as it wanted to continue its relative prosperity, especially in shipbuilding, stone-cutting and shipping. The citizen of Korcula, though under the yoke and protection of Venice could guard his rights and his lifestyle from the outside world because of the legal codex, but he wished to look beyond the borders and the limits of western metaphysics and he he began to broader his aspirations to take in the outside world, for the fulfilment of his dream regarding a better future. His sailing ships ventured in search of the unknown and, by reason of their masculine violence ploughed the Mediterranean furrows, whereas the citizen himself remained in the secure maternal womb of his city nucleus and his peasant field. Sea furrow, field furrow, and a furrow as the line of his writing, welded in the Korcula statute, spelt for the Korcula citizen the chance of a wondrous joy of existence.

Amidst the overall risks of the European insecurity, Korcula, either by force or willingly, accepts the previous duke of Dubrovnik, Marsilie Zorzi, a Venetian nobleman, as its duke in 1254. In that same year Marko Polo was born.

The Polo family is much respected in Korcula; living overr centuries in the town of Korcula. It produced over the years numerous shipbuilders, smiths, stone-masons, tradesmen, priests, and public notaries. Marko's father Nikola and uncle Mate founded their trading outpost in Korcula, and the members of the Polo family were guardians of the walls around the town of Korcula. But, for the skilful tradesmen Nikola and Mate, Korcula was only the starting point of their business trade and their adventurous life. Marko's father and uncle penetrated deeply into Asia. They erected a tower and founded their own trading outpost in the town of Sudac on the Crimea. They had their main trade centre in Constantinople, to which many Korcula businessmen and shipbuilders were travelling and for some time they were living there. Mate and Nikola Polo traded successfully with the Persians. They were cognisant with the secret ways which led through Syria and Iraq as far as the coasts of Persian Gulf. They also knew the areas where the precious pearl oysters could be found. Wherever they ventured they were made welcome as people who were "noble-minded, wise and reasonable". They knew the routes that led to the fur traders of southern Siberia. They had trade contacts with the dignitaries of various Tartar peoples, and they reached the court of the Great Kublai Khan in China. They had started their journey before Marko Polo was born. The successful Korcula tradesmen feeling secure in their centuries-old native soil of Korcula, left their family and still unborn son Marko, as they gazed towards the Far East searching there for a realization of their dream of the rich life. Their ideas of fusing the cultural structures of the West and the East also decreed the destiny of Nikola's son, Marko Polo, from the day of his birth.

Marko achieved the usual education of a young nobleman of his age. He learned a lot about classical writers, he understood the text of the Bible and knew the basic theology of the Roman Catholic Church. He spoke French and Italian, especially the trade vocabulary, and was skilful in keeping business books. The Church books and songs in Croatian from Marko's time have been preserved in Korcula, and it is most probable that Marko knew the Croatian language as spoken by the inhabitants of Korcula. That knowledge was to help him very much when he traveled with his father and uncle across south Russia, then inhabited by Slavonic tribes and under Tartar reign. The European languages which Marko learned in his youth were to be the basis for the development of his polyglot talents when he came in touch, in the Far East, with Chinese; this, too, he learned successfully.

Korcula first had a bishop in 1300, which contributed a great deal to the writing and maintenance of the archives, both Church and secular, and some well-known families kept their own archives. Thus, the always rich Korcula tradition passed on by word of mouth, received also written support for the preservation of the collective communal memory, thus giving birth to capable men ready for the adventures of body and spirit in distant worlds.

The oldest written document in which the Polo family is mentioned is a deed of gift dated March 14th 1400. The then duke of Korcula, Mihajlo Musi and three Korcula judges donated to a certain Joannis a building in the town quarter on the eastern side, near the house of Bogavaz Dupolo. It is the exact location of the present "tower of Marko Polo"; from which one can see clearly all the Peljesac Channel; the route of trading vessels from Hellenic times to the present day.

A somewhat older document, from 1430, speaks about the life and work of members of the Polo family in Korcula in the 13th century, mostly featuring the centuries-old tradition of building Korcula style wooden boats, well known in the whole of the Mediterranean. That document is to be found in the private archives of the Kapor family in Korcula. In this, Mate Polo applies to the community of Korcula for a piece of land for his ship-yard, near the place where his grandfathers were building boats. That document is concrete evidence that the Polos were living in Korcula and building the boats even before Marko Polo was alive. Korcula shipyards were situated both on the eastern and western shores adjacent to the fortified medieval town. In this a way, the shipbuilders, working in the vicinity of the city walls, and living inside them, were able to defend their town in case of enemy attack. In the list mentioning ship-builders in 1594, there are 16 ship-wrights from the Polo family, and in the 1810 list, 22. From a legal case of 1778, we learn that the name of the owner of a shipyard in the eastern suburb was Marko Depolo. As the skills of ship-building, as well as the ownership of the shipyards, were passing from generation to generation, from father to son, various families were for centuries using the same plots for the needs of their workshops. It is evident from the land-registry maps of the past century, and from photos exhibited in the City Museum that Mihovil Depolo, Nikola's son, (1864-1943) was the owner of one of the bigger shipyards on the eastern side ("Borak"), and that Lovro Depolo (1853-1943) was the owner of the biggest shipyard of all on the western side of the town of Korcula ("Sv. Nikola").

The Korculans were not only outstanding ship-builders but also experienced seamen. They excelled, too, as good warriors in many sea battles; among them, members of the Depolo family. Archive material and memorials confirm that the duke of Korcula, Andrea Zane, in 1584, entrusted, among others, Jerolim, Pavle and Nikola Polo, with finding crews for the participation of the town of Korcula in one of the sea battles.

Archive material concerning Korcula reveals also the rich religious life of the Korcul people especially notable in the founding and regular activities of the brotherhoods. These offered, to the various groups belonging to specific crafts, a spiritual refuge and place of relaxation from every day hard work. Like others, the Polos lived an intensive religious life. Bishop of Vinzenza, Mihovil Priuli issued a charter on January 28 1603, for the founding of the brotherhood of St. Michael (Sveti Mihovil). Among the founders, were listed the names of Pavle, Marko, Jakov, sons of Dominik De-Polo, and Vicko and Ivan, sons of Nikola De-Polo. The name of the Franciscan procurator (representative), Marko de Polo, was inscribed on the apple of the silver carrying cross belonging to the Franciscan monastery founded on the island of Badija, near Korcula. The cross was the work of the Sibenik goldsmith, Dobrosevic, whose name was also inscribed on it. The alter painting of St. Ann in the church of All Saints, dating from the beginning of the 17th century, reveals in the text at its base that the painting was the gift of Vinzentie de Polo, presbyter Marko de Polo, and others.

If we walk through the cemetery of Korcula we can see numerous tombs of the Depolo family, dating from the founding of the cemetery to the present day. Outstanding for its beauty is the family vault of Nikola and Rosa Depolo from 1891.

The surname Polo derives from the name Pavao. It was first mentioned in its Croatian form Paulovic (Pavlovic), then in the Latin form De Paulis, Venetian Di Polo, and afterwards remained only Depolo. The earliest mentioned medieval Identification System was the first name and, beside it, the additions, which specified the particular person, differentiating it from others of the same name. The surname appeared only when one of the additions to the name became hereditary. The confirmation of this rule, and that in the case when the surname Polo derives from the name Paulus (Pavao), is found in the following example. The public notary, Jakov Giricic, drew up a will for the ship-builder Paulus (Pavao) in Korcula on February 1st 1565. His surname is not mentioned, only his first name. The original of that will is now kept in the Historical Museum in Dubrovnik. It is evident from other documents written after the said will (contracts, wills and registers) that the sons of the testator now bear the permanent surname, De Paulis. The grandson of the will-maker, Nikola, bears the surname Di Paulo, and the great grandsons, Ivan and Vicko, whom we find among the founders of the brotherhood of St. Michael, bear the surname De Polo.

A frequent use of the surname in its Croatian form of Paulovic (Pavlovic) is evident from a review of the registers between the 16th and 18th centuries. It is last time mentioned for the February 2nd 1747 when Margarita, daughter of Ivan Paulovich and Vica Foretich, was born. The form of the surname Depolo became common with the birth of Mihovil, son of Marko and Palma, on June 18th 1771. From that time it has been listed in this form only. There is an interesting case of the brothers Marko and Andrija, of whom each uses another form of the surname. The contract made in 1525, between the Korcula builder, Marko Pavlovic and the Korcula chapter house, states that Marko obliged himself to complete the building of the northern aisle of the cathedral in Korcula. However, he died during the building in 1532, and his brother, the priest Andrija, with the surname De Paulis was proclaimed the tutor of his children.

712 persons with the surname Polo-Depolo were born in the period between 1583 and 1946. Domenego di Polo, god-father at the baptism of Vinzenza Ismaelis on June 26th 1583, appears on the very first page of the first registry of births in Korcula. The most impressive survey of the expansion of the surname Polo-Depolo is the list of priors ("gastaldi") of the brotherhood of St. Roko, founded on August 16th 1575. A review of the archives of Dalmatian town-communities reveals that the members of the Polo family, later Depolo, have lived continuously in the town of Korcula for centuries.

With regard to Italian professional literature, the most frequent opinion is that the Polo family comes from Dalmatia. Such a claim is evidenced in the manuscript chronicle about Venetian history covering the history of Venice from its beginning until 1446, and also in the book Le vite dei dogi (The Lives of the Dukes), published in Venice in 1522. The same thesis is expounded in later Italian literature, as for example in Biografia universale antica e moderna from 1882 and Storia di Venezia from 1848.

Today, there are Depolos living outside Korcula - in Dubrovnik, Split, Rijeka, Zagreb, Athens, Ismir, New Zealand, USA, Chile and Argentina. All of them originate from Korcula, and have family connections with their Korcula relatives.

All the facts mentioned lead to the conclusion that Korcula is the town of the Polo family - Paulovic (Pavlovic) - De Polo - Di Polo - Depolo g continuously in the period from the 13th century, and according to verbal tradition even much earlier, until the present day. At the same time Korcula is the town from which many members of this family have gone to other towns and other countries. Some of them return and some of them spend their whole lives in the new environment. If the above written documents, especially those printed in Venice, say explicitly that the family of Marko Polo comes from Dalmatia, all available historical sources confirm that Korcula is, without any doubt, the town of origin of the family called POLO - DEPOLO.

The centuries-old oral tradition - handed down by word of mouth in songs, proverbs, stories, legends - connects Marko Polo and Korcula; in the development of writing, the organization of authority, education, and culture. This cedes place gradually to written evidence in the form of archives, manuscripts, contracts, deed of gifts, registry of births, deaths and marriages, and, in the recent times, in the form of literary works. So the legend of Marko Polo expands ever further, and more and more it is taken over by visual and written media: television programmes, expert and popular periodicals, tourist reviews, and set books all over the world. Marko Polo and Korcula become an inseparable structural pair in which each pole enriches and ennobles the other. Evergreen Montenegro 03:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Evergreen the Talk:Marco Polo page is not for posting essays!! It is for "discussion", you are not meant to cut and paste large chunks of pseudohistorical essays from the internet. You have make a mockery of the Wikipedia and you have ruined this talk page. Stop vandalising!

Euganeo 01:22, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Euganeo(alias Dekota and Gepeu)... How ironic ...you posted an essay on the Polo last name that has little relevance to Marco Polo. We all know Polo last name is Italian origin. Nobody is questioning the last name itself. The discussion page is about the possible origin being Croatian and the proof that supports it. You said it yourself that names were changed so I can't see why you need to rule out this Polo family of Korcula and Venice did latinize/Italianize Croat names into POlo. You're contradicting yourself in a big way. Again a great deal of sources have questioned Marco Polo being Italian even in those days. Search the web. Many Italians if you look at old books even wrote in black and white that Marco Polo was Dalmatian and from Sibenik. Iam sure there was more evidnece out there. Why do you keep harassing me ???? Why does it worry you?? The topic has nothing to do with Croatian POV, the sources are Italian and English.

Iam not a vandal. You're using the Vadalism tag to discredit me and the views i hold. That is wrong and i think people can see it.

Once again look at the sources ...no POV in any of it.

Evergreen Montenegro23:34, 24 May 2006 (UTC) Evergreen Montenegro 03:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

This is preposterous, you claim that I am User:DakotaKhan and User:Ghepeu???? THat is ridiculous. You are a vandal and many of the Admin know this.

Euganeo 23:57, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

Evergreen, stop destroying this page with all your edits. A number of Wiki Admin have warned you time and time again to stop doing this. Your history of vandalism on this page goes back until June 2005 ! Anyone can discover this by checking your History. This is something that you cannot delete! Stop your continual blanking, deleting and vandalising. I tried to discuss this with you in a civil way but you have hurled insults and false accusations at me. I am only User:Euganeo. It is impossible for me to be any of the other users you accuse me of being. They're Admin that I have notified of your vandalism! Stop it, you have destroyed this discussion page. It is an absolute mess. Stop deleting my posts. Stop insulting Users. Delete your own posts and leave the Wikipedia alone! Euganeo 00:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

THE HISTORY OF WARNINGS YOU HAVE DELETED Most of these Users and Admin Users have warned you for specifically deleting or vandalising elements of the Talk:Marco Polo page.

DakotaKahn 21 May 2006
Betacommand 27 April 2006 - revert edits
Naconkantari 27 April 2006 - reverts edits
Rory096 27 April 2006
ragesoss 10 February 2006
Shanel 3 January 2006
Winter 3 January 2006
Pilotguy 5 April 2006
???? 20 December 2005
GhePeU 12 July 2005
GhePeU 30 June 2005

You have a history of vandalism that stems back as early as 30th June 2005 !!

Euganeo 00:18, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I have taken your point... Like I said above.. Stop adding my ip number... Stop posting warnings... Stop calling me a vandal when all I want is to clean up the fighting between you and I. Those posts need to be taken out. Do that ..and you have my word I will leave discussion page alone...To my credit the main article remains untouched although someone has taken Croatia out of the first paragraph....... Someone could be 10 people on the site Ghepu, Winter etc.....you just use a different computer thats all. Evergreen Montenegro 03:56, 29 May 2006 (UTC) (Now i know how to sign hahah 29th may)

Evergreen, please sign this properly as discussed in other posts I've put here. Also, you should inform yourself properly, I'm not those other people, it's actually impossible. If you look at how intricate their pages are, it's just crazy. Speak with them individually if you like. You'll realise that I am not them. They are people I appealed to help you realise that you can't delete other people's posts. Just like Meni Rosenfeld told you on your discussion page. Thanks Euganeo 00:22, 26 May 2006 (UTC)

Maybe he was Polish?

I see you people argue whether he was Italian or Croatian. There's something else I heard long time ago. He supposedly was Polish and "Polo derived from "Polaco". Just a thought to stir up a conversation.

Norum

Maybe his real name was Polskie Ogorkie hahha....god bless you Polska..you did have a POPE so that is someting...oh and Wayne Gredsky... i guess anything is possible...maybe even Albanian or even Greek, Turk etc.... All i can see is the evidence that is before us today... and that does mention his family was called of Dalmatian origin, they only took up the lastname Polo under Vinice rule of Korcula. I can understand that this is unpopular with Italians, but one has to be fair all these people eg Colombus etc...have some questions over origin...nobody knows 100% do they???? Nobody is debating here today mate...the debate has been alive since his time ok...+ nowhere does it mention he was Italian until 20th Century...in Polos day he was known as Dalmatian and Venetian only. The fact that he was born in Korcula and that Polos of Korcula are ethnic Croats adds to this debate. name changes were common among Croats under Venice rule...so nothing can be ruled out. This is a view that should have a right to be heard.....Fair enough.

)

Caio.........Evergreen Montenegro1 03:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Not Croat, just read Marco's book

Here are two links about Polo's Book [1] and [2] (in Italian). From the Prologue, it's possible to read:

"Incomincia il libro di Messer Marco Polo cittadino di Venegia...."

"Furono due nobili cittadini di Vinegia, ch'ebbe nome l'uno messer Matteo e l'altro messere Nicolao...."

"E questo libro vi conterà per ordine si come misier Marco polo, nobile e savio zitadin de Veniesia....."

So, the father, the uncle and Marco are definied "citizens of Venice".

More:

"Li due frategli, udendo ciò, pensaro d'andare in questo mezzo a Vinegia per vedere loro famiglie; alora si partiro d'Acri e vennero a Negroponte e poscia a Vinegia. E qui vi trovò messer Niccolao che la sua moglie era morta, e erane rimaso uno figliulo di 15 anni, ch'avea nome Marco; e questi è quello messer Marco di cui questo libro parla."

So after a trip of years (they were in China), the Polos are back in Venice. They want to go in Venice to see their families: so, their home was in Venice.

Nicolo' discover thate the wife is dead, and he meets a son of 15.

Can anybody tell me how is possible for Marco to be born in Curzola?

--Giovanni Giove 18:55, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Korcula was under Venice rule and was part of its territoty in those days. Even if Marco Polo was born in Korcula he would still be called Venetian and from Venice no matter what. I guess Venice in those days was like California a state yet today Venice is only a town and no longer include Dalmatia Korcula etc... Confused ????

Simple logic. Korcula was populated by Croats not Italians. Marco Polo is said to be born in Korcula and some texts show he was from Dalmatian. Croats lived under Venice rule and last names were translated to Italian ones. Polo family of Korcula are from Sibenik Dalmatia Croatia not Italy. If Marco Polo was born in Korcula he is without doubt part of the Pilic family from Sibenik who lived on Korcula and used name Polo. There is a chance Marco could be Italian but this would only be if Marco wasn't from Venice or Korcula. The Venetian Polos are often said to be Dalmatian. The only time they are mistaken as Itlalian is when people think all Venetians were Italian only. Look at the world in fairness. Polo is a Italian last name but the Venetian Polo family is Croatian who simply used that last name as they had to living under Venice rule. This is no propaganda. Simple fact which any fair historian of the area will back up.

Jagoda 1 04:02, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

in the time of Marco Polo)....Korcula was Under Venetian rule...in those days the people were often all called Venetian (even if ethnic Croat) and called from Venice (even if from Korcula

1) first of all: Marco Polo was NOT born in Curzola. Just read what I've wrotten. It is NOT possible. He was born in the CITY of Venice.

2)EVEN IF: in the time of Marco Polo, coastal and Insular Dalmatia was basically romance and not "croat". It became croat some centuries later. In the XIX and XX cent. there was still a large italian community.

--Giovanni Giove 10:04, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni,

You fail to understand the topic and the time. Korcula was mostly populated by Croats and very few Italians if any in those times. (Croats cane to Dalmatia in 6th Century) Marco Polo was born in Korcula and there is proof to support this. The fact that Venice is mentioned is because Korcula was part of Venice at that time..so to say he was born in Venice is still correct as Korcula was in Venice. Understand. It's very simple. Korcula not Curzola Please... Names were Italianised just like place names when under Venetian rule...even you keep saying Curzola today...you should call it Korcula as its said in Croatian and English. Ciao Jagoda 1 22:41, 24 July 2006 (UTC) GOT YOU PS. You're saying that IVAN LUPIS VUKIC (Croat inventor of Torpedo) was Italian who slavinized his last name from some Italian one...yet here you argueMARCO POLO is Italian 100% according to you and didn't change his last name.

You're on a winner there ..only Italians slavinized last names, not the other way around...GET REAL...many Croats changed last names into Italian and there is so much proof to support that POlo family of Korcula and Venice are in fact Croatian. You're two faced as you argue how Lupis is Italian on another page. Funny guy. If Lupis could be Italian , Polo could be Croat..Right???? Jagoda 1 03:21, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Giovanni = John

This is a good example of how an Italian first name such as Giovanni is often translated into John when the person lives in another country. Marco used the name Polo while Croatians lived under Venetian rule...all the Croats changed last names into Italian. Much like Italians do today from Giovanni to John when in America etc.... It's was done and is still done...silly I know...but simple logic. Korcula is Curzola...two names for same place....Polo used Pol Pilic and Pualovic...the Polo family of Korcula and Venice has no relation to Italian Polos...these Polos from the Adriatic were Croats who used that Italianized last name..

Ciao Jagoda 1 03:46, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh my God!:-(((

Nicolo is back from China after 20 years. He find a boy of 15, son of the dead wife! In Venice!!! That what it's wrotten in the book! Can you tell me how is possible for Marco, to be born in Curzola?! Well, that's the evidence and I begin to be tired. Ivan

--Giovanni Giove 15:31, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

DNA

Giovanni did you read what i wrote before. In those days Venice was like a state eg. like California...it was normal to say you're from Venice even if you're from Korcula or any part of Dalmatia. Croatians were called Venetians just like Italians were. Have you heard of people saying they are from California when in fact they could be from San Fran or LA. Venice in those days included most of Dalmatia and its Croatian citizens while today it does not. That a big change for what was Venice. Nobody can say Marco Polo is Italian for sure...people only assume that. Most of the evidence points to him being born or growing up in Korcula , there is also mention that his family is from Sibenik in origin and many Italians have writen that Polo family of Venice is from Dalmatia in origin. The people who call Marco Polo Italian have made a small error in assuming all Venetinas are all Italian. This is wrong and not the case as the Polo family of Korcula is in fact ethnic Croatian. Now anything is possible but i would think calling him Italian is wrong...perhaps the correct term should be Venetian...Right

Giovanni John Ivan...depending where you live you adopt new veriations of your name...Marco lived under Venice rule in Korcula so his family adopted the the Italian name Polo...all the Croatians did that and continued to that for many generations. As you pointed out others such as Ivan Lupis (who is said to be Croatian in origin) could well be Italian as you pointed out..both sides Italianized or Croatianized last and first names...True...My view is Marco is 80% chance Croatian..too much of the evidence supports that while very little supports him being ethnic Italian.

Him coming back to Venice was like saying coming back to California...a huge state in those days...saying Venice in those days was just a general term used ...people would know where Venice was..saying Korcula would puzzle people as its only a small island.

The best way to know 100% would be to check his DNA...that's if Marco Polo body can be located somewhere. That would solve the puzzle and end this silly debate. I say silly because its pointless when evidence supports him being Croatian Ventian from Korcula and Venice and not Italian from Venice.

Jagoda 1 23:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The only evidence: born in Venice

Nicolò Polo, after 20 years, decide to go in Venice to see the family. He discover that the wife is dead and that she left a boy of 15, called Marco.

(from "Il Milione")

What does it means? It means that Marco was Born in Venice (the town, not the Republic).

Stop.

Your Ivan

--Giovanni Giove 14:11, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

G SPOT

Giovanni,

I think if you look at the history of the Polo family you will find they did live in Venice for a short time anyway and a few other places to boot. No surprise as Venice was full of activity/trade in those days. Documents do show the Polo family were Dalmatian and originated from the mainland town of Sibenik..later moving to Korcula and Venice etc... these types of ducuments tend to get hidden or branded croatian propaganda yet they were writen by Italians themselves. (as Evergreen has pointed out before) ...Nicolo is translated to Italian from a Croatian name Nikola. If you look at history books of Korcula you will find that Mate (mateo) and Nikola (nicolo) are said to be Dalmatian, they even resited Venetian rule. Why would Italian's resist Venetain rule of Korcula? Polo families of Korcula have no relation to Polo familes found in Italy. Marco Polo can only be Italian if he has no relation to the Croatian Polo's of Korcula. Korcula historians do talk about a Marko Pol and Nikola and Mate Pol. So make up your own mind. I think they are one and the same .. cya

Jagoda 1 03:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I WILL SETTLE ON THIS I think it's very possible he was a mixture of Italian and Croatian due to location. If he was from Korcula he would have had Croatian blood. If he was from Venice, those Polo's were also said to be from Dalmatia ..so again he would have had some Croatian blood. In saying that, calling him Venetian and saying he was from Venice..is fine by me, these are both correct statements. It has nothing to do with Croatian propaganda, there is heaps unbias evidence to support Marco being Croatian all over the place and from all walks of life. The main problem is too many people have translated Venetian to Italian without understanding who Venetians in those days were. Venetians were 1 Italians but 2 some were Croatian and 3 a few other backgrounds. There is evidence to suggest Marco Polo was a Venetian Croat. It is up to historians to mention it and most have if you look on the net and many books. Jagoda 1 04:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Italizations of article

This makes me puke. Why are names ital-ized? Why Niccolo? If someone could have a look at the article on HR wikipedia - http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Polo.

There is proof that Polo is a Croatian surname - "pol" is a bird. Polos had 4 of those on their emblem, and Marko himself signed himself as "Pol", not "Polo".

Names of his relatives were Nikola, Marko, Mate, NOT Niccolo etc.

All these facts have been translated from the Croatian wikipedia. Not made up.

And they are FACTS.

No, they're not facts, they're 19th century allegations, according to many scholars forged by Croatian nationalists to give prestige to their nationality. GhePeU 11:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

And this thieving behaviour of yours isn't nationalistic? Despite numerous proof that he was born on Korcula? Why do you keep erasing that? Why isn't it mentioned even as an alternative? 213.202.67.63

I agree with this user above. I think there is enough evidence to suggest that Marco Polo was Croatian. The article does mention it only towards the end though. I think there needs to be a mention in the first sentance that Marco Polo was Venetian of posssible Croatian or Italian origin or even both. That would be fair to both sides. Italians are quick to label the Croatian evidence as lies yet there is no evidence to suggest he was Italian apart from him living in Venice and having an Italian last name. Some historians have made the mistake by translating Venetian as being Italian and have missed the fact Croatians living under Venice were also called Venetian and took up translating names into Italian. Polo coat of arms is listed and registered in Dalmatia and not Venice..Why???.many Italian historians mention him being from Dalmatia in origin too...Why???. That is no Croat propaganda in fact i would label it Italian propaganda in trying to hide the facts linking Marko to Dalmatia.

This is my last post on this subject as I think there is enough mention of him being possible Croatian in many books and countless other sites..we don't need to argue it here with people who have no idea about those times.

Jagoda 1 23:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks on your reply, Jagoda. It's obvious that this article is completely pro-Italian, therefore I am marking this article for a POV check. 213.202.66.93

ACCORDING TO HENRY YULE MARCO POLO WAS CROATIAN WITHOUT DOUBT. FORGIVE ME FOR POINTING OUT THAT HENRY YULE HAS NO CROATIAN BACKGROUND SO HIS VIEW WOULD BE 100% UNBIAS. Evergreen Montenegro1 03:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Changes

Someone has gone in changed the paragraph about Korcula...I have tried to fix it, but if someone knows how to revert it back to what it was a few weeks ago..please do. Nobody should be changing article without discussion first.

Jagoda 1 23:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)