Talk:Evidence and documentation for the Holocaust/Archive 2

Why did someone delete my message?

So basically I posted a refutation by showing a false quote on here that was made up ("Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."). This page is a joke! You show a picture of a Soviet officer pouring down gas and expect us to think that's proof? Ha!

First, your previous post was not deleted, it was moved to the bottom, where new posts are placed. Second, Squiddy, below, gave you a number of sources for the quote, which is actually quite famous: Ian Kershaw, Hitler 1936-45, Nemesis, (2000) p 153. Also (partially) quoted in Martin Gilbert, The Holocaust, 1990, p 76 (his source given as Norman H. Baynes (Ed.) The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922 - August 1939, London, 1942. p 741. Third, the Soviet soldier pictured is holding the lid to the gas vents at Majdanek, after it was captured by the Russians, he is not "pouring down anything." Fourth, I believe you wrote in your last comment "There is no evidence he said this. If there is, show me it and I will take back my statements." So, please, take back your statements now that Squiddy has given you all of these sources. Also, you should sign your comments. --Goodoldpolonius2 22:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

My mistake, I feel stupid now, I'm just used at keeping my posts on the top. But as I was saying he never said this, when it was claimed he said it, they never cited it in Nuremberg. So not only was it not sustained, it was not even cited. It's not serious evidence. On January 30, 1939 the concentration of the Jews in camps had not yet begun. Until I see serious evidence he said this I won't believe it. Not some book that was written 50/60 years after he supposedly said it. I mean like a video of him saying it. But I will check out the 1942 book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0598758933/sr=8-1/qid=1140562787/ref=sr_1_1/104-9563748-6671113?%5Fencoding=UTF8

For all it's worth, throughout my school years, I have heard this quote in the German original so many times, I can almost quote it by heart. Heck, I think every Germany can do the whole Hitler routine by heart. The quote is as real as anything. (except, of course, if all those tapes were made in the Zionist Conspiracy Headquarter Basement Cutting room. Who knows...) Dietwald 19:49, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

And about the Soviet officer - I know he is not pouring down anything. I know it was just a demonstration. But it's not serious evidence of gassing.--McDonaldsGuy

McDonaldsguy, not all testimony was at Nuremberg, Hitler wasn't on trial, and his speeches wouldn't have been relevant to the trial, especially compared with the mountains of testimony and documents actually presented. Indeed, I am baffled by your questions as to whether the quote exists, honestly, especially as you don't even need to buy the 1942 book, the full speech is here[1], or you can do a Google book search on the phrase and you find many books including the information. It is likely that the speech was recorded as well, it was in front of the Reichstag on January 30, 1939, and I don't think that even hard-core Holocaust deniers argue that the speech doesn't exist. As for the picture, it illustrates how Zyklon B was introduced into gas chambers, just one piece of information among many, so I am not sure why you would focus on it. --Goodoldpolonius2 23:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

i'm sorry but this page IS REALLY A JOKE. it's about how to show that holocaust NEVER HAPPENED and more than the half it's about how holocaust HAPPENED. well this must already be in the HOLOCAUST ARTICLE. it was written by some zionist or what? always taking someone's side, that's how wikipedia works. you just have to ready "five chimneys" where Olga Lengyel says that 24.000 were destroyed everyday at auschwitz (were she claims it's true because she was there and she saw it). alright. from march of 1942 until october of 1944 auschwitz destroyed more than 21 million people. six million more than THE JEWISH WORLD COMMUNITY.

Ah, revisionism at it's best. First, the article is about the falacy that is Holocaust Denial, not a support piece for it. Second, articles aren't written by "some zionist", but by a consensus, which in the case of these kind of topics, is often hard to come by. Lastly, it's amazing that since one account (by a survivor) might be flawed, that should be enough to cast doubt on the entire veracity of the Holocaust. 06:29, 7 Apr 2006 (UTC)

Hitler never said this

"Today I want to be a prophet once more: If international Jewish financiers inside and outside Europe again succeed in plunging the nations into a world war, the result will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and with it the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."

There is no evidence he said this. If there is, show me it and I will take back my statements.

This is a part of an infamous speech given on 30 Jan 1939. Sources: Ian Kershaw, Hitler 1936-45, Nemesis, (2000) p 153. Also (partially) quoted in Martin Gilbert, The Holocaust, 1990, p 76 (his source given as Norman H. Baynes (Ed.) The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922 - August 1939, London, 1942. p 741). --Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 10:56, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone ever been able to find a full complete English translation of this speech? I can't find the full transcript anywhere, only parts of it taken out of context. I've also noticed the translation slightly differs from different sources citing that quote. --Nazrac 19:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course the translations differ. They are translations. The speech is more fun in German in any case. High German must be one of the best languages to say those things. Can't imagine him saying this kind of non-sense in Platt...;) Dietwald 19:51, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Translations are never perfect, but what I meant was there seem to be some very different excerpts of that speech floating around, and since I can't find a complete transcript of the entire speech either in German or for that matter any other language it seems highly dubious to me to be taking those words out of context. --Nazrac 17:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

But Hitler did sign this

But Hitler did sign a statement, his last written statement ever, his "Political Testament," saying, in relevant part, this (as translated into English):

"I have also made it quite plain that, if the nations of Europe are again to be regarded as mere shares to be bought and sold by these international conspirators in money and finance, then that race, Jewry, which is the real criminal of this murderous struggle, will be saddled with the responsibility. I further left no one in doubt that this time not only would millions of children of Europe's Aryan peoples die of hunger, not only would millions of grown men suffer death, and not only hundreds of thousands of women and children be burnt and bombed to death in the towns, without the real criminal having to atone for this guilt, even if by more humane means."

Although awkwardly phrased (in English anyway), the phrase "without the real criminal having to atone for this guilt, even if by more humane means" suggests that "the real criminal" ("Jewry") had actually had to atone for this guilt -- the reference to more humane means would seemingly be a reference to it being better to die in a gas-chamber than of hunger, or by being burnt or bombed to death. That is, he seems to be saying in effect: "Well, OK, I lost and unfortunately a lot of Aryan people starved, were burnt, were bombed, or otherwise were killed, but, as I promised, at least the Jews got theirs -- we Nazis saw to that -- although they got it relatively nicely (by gassing)."

Anyway, it's my understanding that lead Nazi anti-Semite Julius Streicher (editor-in-chief of Der Sturmer) took Hitler's Political Testament to be a statement that Hitler knew of the Holocaust. Streicher denied knowledge at the Nuremburg trials of the Holocaust himself, but took Hitler's Political Testament to be an admission of knowledge of it on Hitler's part.

No refutation non-existence gas chambers

Hey, I was wondering, were is the refutation of the non-existence of the gas chambers? --Vincent 15:20, 14 March 2006 (UTC) And by the way, how can the Zyklon B be thrown into the gas chambers through the windows? Windows wouldn't be really great in a gas chamber. I hope this can be clarified because even though the Holocaust deniers don't stick to the facts, we should. --Vincent 15:28, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your asking here. Are you asking for proof of the gas chambers in your first comment? As for your second comment, there were no windows for the gas chambers. I think you are referring to one of the pictures, which shows the crematorium in the background with windows; in these pictures, the chambers are actually underground, and it is pointed out that the induction columns, where the gas would have been put in, are visible (the tops) 07:04 UTC 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article notes a few arguments of the Holocaust deniers and tells why theyr aren't true. However, at the noted section, it skips to a whole other subject than the gas chambers.

As for my second point, I quote the article:

(In some of the gas chambers the Zyklon B was poured in through the roof, while in others it was thrown in through the windows.)

.--Vincent 13:07, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I think I understand what you are saying in the first comment now; but I think the article is trying to take on the "evidence" that is used to prove that the gas chambers didn't exist -- namely the various reports that deniers advance to show that various aspects of the killing process were impossible or that evidence that they expect to be there is absent. Now, for your second comment, the referenced comment is a quote from another source. I think it's referring to whether the poison was introduced from above ("the roof") or the side ("the windows") of the different chambers used. 20 03:34 20 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, good enough for me ;) --Vincent 12:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

One of the arguments put forward by deniers and revisionists is that the aerial surveillance photos taken by American pilots show that the 'holes in the roof' of the Auschwitz gas chamber did not exist during the time the gas chambers were supposed to be opperating. It has also been confirmed by many that the Soviets rebuilt the gas chamber after the Germans had allegedly blown it up before fleeing from the advancing red army. Does this seem odd to anyone else? --Nazrac 19:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

population section

Couple of queries about the population section:

The article suggests that the high post-war figure for the Jewish population is innaccurately cited by Holocaust sceptics. Rather, as I understand it, it is correctly cited, but misunderstood. The post-war figure was largely derived from 1939, not the year of publication. This is why pre-war and post-war populations do in fact initially show up as being similar. A revised figure was then provided by the American Jewish Committee with more relevant and contemporary information, giving the lower figure. Atm the article suggests that the claim for a high post-war figure is simply invented. This doesn't appear to be true.

Secondly, and probably simply as a result of edits by different people, the section presents a rather contradictory picture of the World Almanac. In the first paragraph it relies on it as authoritative, but in the third paragraph invites the reader to conclude that the Almanac is far from authoritative: Either 3.7 million Jews appeared unnoticed between 1982 and 1990, and then 4.5 million Jews disappeared equally unnoticed between 1990 and 1996, or the World Almanac is not a particularly reliable source for accurate estimates of worldwide Jewish population. In fact it seems the same "selective citing of sources" that is the criticism levelled in the next paragraph. I don't know, but to me it makes wikipedia sound rather less than authoritative itself.

Hakluyt bean

article as a whole

(Sorry, thought I'd put this separately)

Referring to the article overall, if you google holocaust denial, as I've just done, you get apart from this article, frequent reference to allegations made after the First World War of 6 million deaths among Jewish Europeans. This seems to be the chronological first point of reference of Holocaust sceptics. But not mentioned here?

It also struck me that some of the language is a tad tendentious (?). For example: Deniers consider one of their stronger arguments to be the population of Jews before and after the Holocaust. This argument is then rebutted. Well, rebutting the argument is straightforward, as I illustrate in my above comment, but I'm not sure how the writer of that section knows that the particular argument is indeed considered one of the stronger arguments. Is it? And if so could it be cited in some way?

In a way this goes to the heart of the use of the term "holocaust deniers" as if this describes an homogenous group, which I see is talked about elsewhere, so I won't bore anyone further with it here.

Hakluyt bean

This is the propaganda tactic the holocaust lobby uses. They create some catch phrase like "holocaust" which means "death by fire." They then throw an enourmous amount of allegations of criminal murderous actions under this umbrella catch phrase. That way if anyone starts asking too many questions they can conveniently be labeled a "holocaust denier" which is yet another catch phrase. If anyone questions even the most minute detail they are in an instant labeled a "holocaust denier" which is instant academic suicide and a prison sentence in many countries. Following the war there were hundreds of jewish witnesses who claimed the Germans had been making lampshades out of jewish skin, boiling down the bodies of jewish victims to make soap and cosmetic products out their body fat and other absurd ideas. These accusations didnt come from a few jews here and there who obviously didnt remember things quite as they happened, they came influential jews like Simon Weisenthal. Today this claim has been quietly dropped and there is almost no mention of it, nor is there mention of it on this pathetic article. As far as I can tell this article doesn't provide any proof whatsoever contradicting "holocaust deniers." It simply states in alot of bloated and misleading verbiage "the holocaust deniers are wrong and are a bunch of liars" This article attempts to "refute" the claims simply by saying "that isnt true." It is rife with character assassination, and completely void of any fact, reason or logic. It is a bunch of hollow doublespeak.

Nazrac

Erm.... :) Well, I agree with your assessment of the article. This is an easy subject to research, but somehow the article brings nothing to the table of exhibits. Naturally it's controversial and I'm guessing there's a certain amount of self-censorship. It's fascinating to me; received wisdom, rhetorical conceits, contrained discussion, stuff like that. I agree the phrase 'holocaust denier' is a kind of Rhetorical device, or anyway a triumph of rhetoric over substance, but it's probably unwise to say so. On which point it's readily observable that some holocaust sceptics have ulterior motives, usually just common or garden racism. This is the point at which some say there can't be further discussion because there's a rowdy mob at the back of the hall. I think that's wikipedia's view. I don't think you can have encyclopedic articles on that basis however.

Hakluyt bean 22:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Denial as anti-Semitism

Is the point of view of Chomsky in Faurisson affair#Chomsky's response an isolated one? Apokrif 17:51, 15 July 2006 (UTC) See also "Inside the bunker.(in-depth look at those who deny the Holocaust)", John Sack, Esquire, 1st February 2001, Volume 135; Issue 2: "Nor did they seem anti-Semites. I'm sure many anti-Semites say the Holocaust didn't happen (even as they take delight that it really did), but I don't believe I met any that weekend [a conference of deniers]" (he compares deniers with cryptozoologists) Apokrif 15:25, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Burden of proof

I think we could discuss (but, is this approach neutral?) http://www.geniebusters.org/915/04g_jumping.html : looks like its fallacy is that, unlike encounters with UFO, the Holocaust happened only once, and that unlike psi powers, the Holocaust cannot be reproduced at will (so the level of evidence required is higher for psi powers than for encounters with UFO, which in turn require stronger proof than the Holocaust). Apokrif 17:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No, the difference is that the Holocaust is a historical event, and psi powers and UFO sightings are contemporary things. The approach in the linked article isn't about the Holocaust as an event, but rather a challenge to the Skeptic's article; and the author of the linked article talks only about _gas_ chambers. 05:36, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

We all know the kind of loony bins one will find at UFO conventions. The question is how are they any different than the people who fabricated stories about the Germans making lampshades out of the skin of murdered jews and cosmetic products out of their body fat? That seems not only crackpot but malicious in intent. They actually produced a lampshade that was used to incriminate Isle Koch, the wife of the Buchanwald commandant during the Nuremburg trials. It was claimed she collected items, including furniture made from the corpses of jews murdered in the camp. She commited suicide after spending two decades in prison. It was subsequently detirmined that the lampshade was made out of goat skin. Sadly we still see this sort of proposterously absurd nonsense on numerous holocaust websites despite being thoroughly disproven in more recent times. --Nazrac 17:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

There are many stories about various atrocities, and it is true that some of the more sordid ones get more play, but that doesn't make them fabricated. The truth about Ilse Koch, it seems, is that she _wasn't_ convicted with a lampshade, or any human skin article from Buchanwald. She was sentenced to life, commuted to 4 years for her crimes at Buchanwald by the military courts. She was then subsequently tried by German courts and sentenced to life, again with no reference to any human skin article. She was implicted in several testimonies in the collection and possession of human skin tattoos. If you have some reference that disproves this, it would be interesting to read. 05:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)