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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Merbabu (talk | contribs) at 15:04, 5 August 2006 (→Irish?). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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U2 worldwide album sales

What the hell kind of source is that for the worldwide sales of U2's individual albums? Some guy in a U2 forum? Are you freaking kidding me? Sources like that just make wikipedia look like a joke. Get rid of them. 24.49.83.40 21:22, 17 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agreed. "Footnotes" #23 to #38 are all from the same chat room. Pretty lame.
If you want better information, or more accurate record sales, I suggest you do a better job. For now, information stays.

History/formation section

This section is listed almost verbatim from http://www.u2talk.com/bio.php. I think we need to rewrite it. Any takers? Wikipedia brown 06:54, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, that page is a copy of this page. This is all very confusing. Wikipedia brown 07:06, 19 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

When Referring to U2

...Should the speaker use the singular voice ("U2 has released many successful albums...") or the plural voice ("U2 are predominantly Christian...")?

I am not sure what Wiki's stance on this issue is.

"U2" is singular; there is only one band. EVula 23:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
YEs, only one band but it's convention to refer to groups as if they were plural. Ie, No-one says "The Beatles is coming", or "THe Police was...". Definetly plural.--Merbabu 02:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, collective nouns are singular in American english and plural in British english. I would assume that in Ireland, they use British english, not American english, thus I would say make it plural. Bsd987 21:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Plural it is, then. --William 00:28, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Edits on Fri 24 June and Sat 25 June

I went through the article line by line. I agree with much of 170.61.20.229 comments (why don’t you sign in???) and have left them in the article but the new heading regime is inappropriate. The first reason should be enough – it was previously ordered along albums and tours; factual and actual dates and events. The new edits base the article on less tangible “periods” (ie, “height of popularity). These might be FINE for a rock magazine, but not appropriate for an encyclopedia as wiki. Furthermore, many of the actual headings were highly POV, provided little material info and in places were arguably even incorrect. Ie, “Height of Popularity”. The new headings grouped the periods covering War and UF. Yet, the band themselves when grouping the periods puts Boy, October, War in the first period, the UF til 1989 in the next period. It could even be argued that they are POV, so best to stick to indisputable facts rather than debateable “periods”. I reinstated many links to the main album and tour articles that were recently removed. Having the “main article” links at the top of a section hopefully discourages editors from filling out this main U2 article with all the little details of an album of tour – rather, place them in the tour or album articles. This main article can only be a summary of albums, etc. --Merbabu 03:50, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Genre, Part II

Okay, here goes: I know that they're not Alternative Rock, because they really don't fit the bill for it. The problem with U2 is that they really aren't any genre, per se. When I put Alternative Rock there, it was kind of a general thing... They're alternative alternative. Or something like that. But they aren't pop, and they sure as heck aren't art rock. A good example of art rock would be Dark Side of the Moon, of which U2 shares no similarities. Bono said that U2 is a Folk band, perhaps we should put that in there somewhere. 69.145.123.171 Hello! Saturday, June 24, 2006, 04:12 (UTC)

Why are they not Rock?!? Maybe that is not a perfect fit for some, but it is a lot closer than "Alternative Rock". As for bono saying they are a folk band, that is just off the cuff "bono talk" and even though it's --Merbabu 04:22, 24 June 2006 (UTC)his band shuld not be considered a reliable source. lol[reply]
I never said they aren't rock, I said they aren't alternative rock. Alternative rock bands are... Different. Not much like U2, though. 69.145.123.171 Hello! Saturday, June 24, 2006, 04:28 (UTC)
OK, but the history page shows you removed the Rock" category. i will put it back (and leave Alternative Rock). cheers --Merbabu 04:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I took it out because it's really ambiguous. Rock is such a general term, something a little more specific would be nice. 69.145.123.171 Hello! Saturday, June 24, 2006, 04:36 (UTC)
Hmm, i understand your thinking, but being specific is where we run into trouble, because it is extremely difficult to label a band like U2 to one specific genre. They have songs that can easily fit Pop, Rock, Alt Rock, Blues, etc. Keeping it general with something like Rock is valuable because it is the MOST correct (albeit general). Ie, they are more Rock than they are classical or jazz, and depending on your defintion of Pop, they are more ROck than Pop. --Merbabu 04:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh... You're right, I just hate keeping it so... General. Ah, well. Guess it's better to avoid confusion. Rock it is. 69.145.123.171 Hello! Saturday, June 24, 2006, 04:47 (UTC)
Well, i agree with your reluctance to leave it as it is, but it is, well, the least bad solution. I'd like to be able to see a few tags in their including Rock, Pop, Alt Rock. They don't all apply to all songs but they all have some value. Unfortunately i know someone will see "pop" and delete it thinking that Bullet The Blues Sky is not pop (whereas Sweetest Thing and Stuck in a Moment most certainly are). What can one do? ha ha --Merbabu 04:51, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
PS, getting back to the term "Pop", it depends on ones perspective. If one largely listens to Popular Music, calling U2 "pop" makes no sense. Ie, they are Rock but Madonna or Britney is pop. However, if one looks at all music, then of course U2 is pop (ie Popular Music) and not say Classicalor Jazz. (although calssical and jazz were once the Popular Music of the day). UNless one stricks to broad categories, genres and pigeon-holing are just more trouble than it is worth. --Merbabu 04:55, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's just like The Beatles issuse. Rock? Pop? 69.145.123.171 Hello! Saturday, June 24, 2006, 04:58 (UTC)
Yup - a complete and pointless nightmare. --Merbabu 05:08, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, U2's specific genre is post-punk. The band is heavily influenced by Joy Division/New Order and Television. Bono even appears in the New Order documentary raving about the band; Quincy Jones also appears talking about how Bono once told him that New Order was their biggest influence. Allmusic.com classifies them as post-punk, as does Simon Reynolds' book Rip it Up and Start Again. I'm fine with the box listing "Rock, pop, post-punk". it's concise, accurate, and appropriate.

I really don't get calling them alternative rock, unless everything that got played on college radio in the 80's is considered alternative rock. Which has some merit, but isn't true. WesleyDodds 23:30, 24 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've also noticed there's little about their influences, which is a component for a band page reaching Featured status. Plus it helps to understand that the band didn't just pop out of thin air sonically. WesleyDodds 00:46, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I think this would be benficial and i don't have all the answers though. I can suggest though that there seems to be maybe two groups of influences: ie, the first group of influences that defined U2 from the start - ie, the influences that they didn't necessarily go and seek out. These were with U2 from the early days/ And secondly those that actively sought - ie, the late '80's with their roots and american music exploration and the early 90's when they actively looked for new influences from dance music (amongst others). Some of the early influences are perhaps: Echo and The Bunnymen, David Bowie, The Who, The Ramones (well, according to Bono), John Lennon. Later maybe Van Morrison? --Merbabu 14:44, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
How can they possibly be labled as post-punk? Given, HTDAAB, along with ALYCLB, could fit the bill. However, TJT, War, and all their earlier albums are not even close. This was before post punk even existed. Boy was before punk rock even became popular, let alone post punk. As for alternative rock, U2 was actually a major influence, as can be found here. U2, along with The Cure and other 70's bands were major influences in what is today Alternative Rock. Besides, post punk is a form of alternative rock. Why not just have both? I know they sound nothing like Alternative Rock is today, but way back when U2 was the definitive Alternative Rock band. --69.145.123.171 21:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and All Music Guide sez we're both right. --69.145.123.171 21:48, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The first three albums are definitely post-punk. Everything after that is up to debate. And post-punk came into existence around 1978 with the debut of Public Image Ltd. (whose guitarist Keith Levine has been called an influence on The Edge). WesleyDodds 21:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but post punk is still a division of Alternative Rock. I get what you're saying-they're not alternative rock. But in the 70's that's what they were labled, and I think it should be noted that that's what they originated as. The way it looks now seems to work. --69.145.123.171 21:55, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Except for the pop part. When were they ever pop?--69.145.123.171 21:56, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
U2 are Rock. That's the closest genre but it is very general. But we run into trouble with further subdivisions. They cannot always be consistently applied. Some of their songs are very pop. Ie, sweetest thing, mysterious ways, All i want is you, etc. But the more we try to be specific, the more difficult it gets and the more likely we will disagree. I think it is important to state they are Rock (to distinguish them from Mozart, John Coltrane and Britney), but i really question the value of further sub-division - seriously, what's the benefit? --Merbabu 01:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
About your other points: Someone put U2 in the Timeline of alternative rock and we just haven't removed it because some people consider them alternative; they certainly aren't a seminal band in the development of the genre. And read the alternative rock article again; post-punk isn't listed as an alternative genre. The closest thing is the post-punk revival which while taking influence from the original post-punk movement it emerged from the indie rock scene. And "alternative" didn't come into common use until the late 80s. WesleyDodds 21:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Right; and All Music Guide considers them both Post-Punk and alternative rock. As far as legit music sites go, AMG is pretty high up there. Why don't we just leave it at that? Again, I see what you're saying. The are not, by today's standards, Alternative Rock. That's partly because the term itself has become something it wasn't supposed to be. You can recognize an alternative rock song because they all follow basically the same pattern. REM, Foo Fighters, matchbox twenty, they all have similar sounds. That's what's funny though-'alternative rock' was originally used to describe bands that didn't fit into any category, and now it has become a category all on its own. If Pink Floyd was a band that just now started climbing up the charts, they would probably be labled alternative rock until some other genre came up that better described them. The same goes for U2, Coldplay, and the likes. They have very uniquie sounds that really don't fit into anything, and hence, are alternative. --69.145.123.171 22:08, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You know, it's not impossible for them to be both, since many strands of alternative rock grew out of post-punk. The Cure is one example of a band that's both post-punk and alternative. Post-punk if anything is a transitional phase between punk and alt-rock, but it's ultimately classified as a type of punk rock. My main point is that, for the first few years of their existence, they were unequivocally a post-punk band. Later they refined their own sound and branched outside of their Bowie/Joy Division/Television influences. WesleyDodds 22:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Although I think that they leaned a bit more towards alternative rock in their earlier days, what you just said sounds right. --69.145.123.171 22:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Question

I asked this question before but I think it went into the archives, so chances are no one is going to see it. Here it is again. I noticed that the Joshua Tree section of this article doesn't talk about any of the themes and the mood of JT, whereas the War and Boy sections go into some detail. Is it better to add info to the JT section or should we start merging some of the information from the War and Boy sections into the album's own articles? Since this article is already at 50kb, the latter may be more appropriate. It would be great to hear your thoughts, especially Merbabu and Kristbg, both of you have been doing really great work with this article. Wikipedia brown 19:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should put something in the JT section. If we feel the article is getting too big, we can always pull out some stuff from the ATYCLB and HTDAAB sections - people keep adding the latest news to those sections. --Kristbg 20:50, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Subheadings

Really, a lot of these subheadings are unnecessary or redundant. We don't need a new heading when talking about an album in that albums section, for for every paragraph that talks about a new topic. Whenever I remove them, they keeping being added again. WesleyDodds 22:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wesley, i understand what you are saying, and at least for some sections you are correct. I initially put in the sub-headings to try and sort out the information - some of the album sections are quite long and do benefit from further sub-division. And in these longer sections, the information was actually spread about with no logical flow - i fixed this order of info at the same time i put the headings in. So when i put the sub-headings into these sections i also put them into the shorter sections, simply for consistency. BUT, i can reconsider that strategy. I suppose, just cos one section is long and is in need of sub-headings, doesn't mean a shorter section must also have them. cheers --Merbabu 01:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so i had a look at the headings you had removed - specifically those in the Boy/October section and the Unforgettable Fire section. My criteria for keeping a sub-heading was the amount of info between headings.I think there is ALMOST a point for removing them from U Fire, but I felt there was just enough to justify it - borderline. As for Boy/OCtober, i think there is a stronger case for leaving the headning seperating them - they were two very different albums, different periods (even though both within short time) and they both have enough info. BUT, i did consolidate headings in the Joshua Tree - Rattle & Hum Sections. I felt there just wasn't enough info there to justify a seperate heading for the Joshua Tree tour, and also the Lovetown tour. As i said earlier, the only reason i put the sub-headings was to try and order the article more (at the same time i remember shift paragraphs and sentences around in a logical "album" then "tour" order - that wasn't there beofre in many cases. So let's just keep our eyes on the flow of the article. --Merbabu 01:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the Boy/October section: the first heading already says the section is going to cover both albums, so it's assumed both will be discussed in a logical progression. There's no need for the separate headings. This is all part of a larger concern that the page is too long; much of the detail can probably be shifted to other pages. instead of being compartmentalized into sizable subsections. Thus the main U2 page can and should be trimmed down for increased readability. WesleyDodds 06:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with you about the length of the overall article - More bits should be moved over to the individual topic articles. I have done a bit of that already. As long as the information is not deleted, but shifted then it is good. If that means that the Boy/October section is shorter and therefore can lose subheadings, that is great. But until it gets shorten, i reckon it is better with the subheadings.--Merbabu 07:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Done! It was a bit of a rough "chop" so please check. --Merbabu 07:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. Now we should probably work on trimming down everything from Achtung Baby afterwards. WesleyDodds 07:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Genre, Part III

I'm fine with the way it is now, but somebody-seemingly the same person using dynamic IPs-keeps changing it back. Other than adding hidden text, which I already did, can anyone think of anything else we can do? --69.145.123.171 22:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Influences

Regarding the much-needed influence section described above, I've been attempting to do a bit of reading and research on U2's influences, which have obviously drastically changed with each new style of music the band has produced. Here are just a few quotes I found skimming through Bill Flanagan's excellent 1995 book U2 At the End of the World, one of U2's few biographers who clearly knows the band well:

  • Bono, on Achtung Baby and early recording struggles: "It's a cliché, but U2's biggest influences have always been each other. We've always played with each other. We've always played against each other musically. When we came to Berlin we were suddenly, musically, on different levels and that affected each thing. The musical differences affected the personal differences."
  • Maybe not a U2 member quote, but Flanagan on Rattle and Hum: "Let's learn about roots and how the old songwriters did it." Bono's thoughts on technology and the remmodification of rock music are described in detail on pages 24–30 of Flanagan's book.
  • Edge's guitar playing, particularly in the Boy period, greatly resembles that of Public Image Ltd.. Flanagan comments: "U2 did come from P.I.L. And from the Clash, Jam, Patti Smith, Skids, Lou Reed, Bowie, and fifty other places. What sets them apart from their early rivals and influences is where they ended up."
  • Bono on Bowie: "Ziggy Stardust and Aladdin Sane were big influences on U2 and should be acknowledged."

I think the correct way to approach a section on influences is with direct, citable quotes from the band—U2 has such a long history that nearly any great artist may have had some influence on them, but it shouldn't be too hard to come up with a chronological list of their biggest influences. —McMillin24 contribstalk 06:03, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I mentioned before, the NewOrderStory features commentary by Bono where he refers to "the godly voice of Ian Curtis" and Quincy Jones mentions how Bono told him that Joy Division/New Order was the band's biggest influence. There's the oft-repeated anecdote about how after Ian Curtis' suicide Bono went up to Tony Wilson and told him "Ian was number one and I was always number two". Also the song "A Day Without Me" from Boy is about the death of Ian Curtis. WesleyDodds 22:54, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What happened to the band's early history?

Was just browsing here and was struck by the large chunk of the band's early history from 1976 to 1984 being missing. Wisekwai 22:24, 12 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Larry's "occassional" keyboard and backing vocals, and Bono's "occassional" harmonica

There seems to be a little controversy around the use of the word "occassional" in the first sentences. ALthough i reinstated after its removal a few days ago, i agree it is awkward, BUT strongly feel it is a necessary evil if we are to continute referring to Larry's "occassional" keyboard and backing vocals, and Bono's "occassional" harmonica. If the issue is the "clumbsiness" and "irrelevant" use of the word in the opening sentences, then wouldn't it make more sense to remove reference to the key-board playing, harmonica, etc???? That is what is clumsy and irrelevant. However, if they are to be included, then the article gives a poorly proportioned comment on the roles of the members; let's face facts: Bono is U2's singer, and Larry plays drums - their other performing duties are ancillary and insignificant. At best, Bono "plays" guitar 2 or 3 times a concert and this is the "extra" activity that has the strongest case for inclusion in the opening sentences. The others are indeed extremely rare: the hamonica was played in two songs, and the only time it's been played in the last 10 years was in the early legs only of the Vertigo tour (after a 10 year hiatus), Larry plays single-finger keyboard in 1-song on the current tour only, and his backing vocals are extremely rare (Numb). If we are to include Larry's keyboard and Bono's harmonica, then why not include tambourine (he "played" it occasionally during "Al Because of You") or Edge's bass playing and Adam's lead guitar during "40"???. --Merbabu 05:56, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I have heard Larry sing backup ONCE, on the song "Numb". That's it. Shadow1 12:49, 23 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It isn't a big deal, but if occasionally is added then a disclaimer should naturally follow later in the article (btw: Adam spoke a few words at the end of one song...) --William 00:53, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Larry also sings backup on "Miracle Drug", for what it's worth. --Pleeker 22:41, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Irish?

Two of the four members, The Edge and Adam Clayton, were both born in England and both are, as far as I'm aware, both British citizens, so I think that opening the article with "U2 is an Irish rock group" (bold added), with a link to the Republic of Ireland is misleading.

Have U2 collectively described themselves as Irish (in which case it should be sourced)? If not, would it not be better to call them either Anglo-Irish or Anglo-Irish? The Anglo-Irish article is naturally about the historical social and political groups so shouldn't be linked itself. Even if so, I think linking to the Republic of Ireland, a political entity, rather than Ireland, is no more than a case of a republican "claim" to them.

An alternative is to say "U2 is a rock band formed in Dublin, featuring...". I believe this was the consensus reached with AC/DC, which is similarly Scoto-Australian, formerly introduced simply as Australian. Tonyobrienuk 10:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

we've been through this before... [[1]]
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