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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Anthony Krupp (talk | contribs) at 15:16, 5 August 2006 (→‎Lists and criteria for inclusion of list members (revisited): clarity). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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List of lists

Some lists refer to sublists that already have their own main articles. In these cases, should only the link to the separate sublist be given, to avoid redundancy? Shawnc 17:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Items to be Included in Lists?

I know that this is a somewhat vague headline, but I'm not really sure how to be more specific in a few words. I basically have two questions, both of which relate specifically to the current list of U.S. radio programs, although I think that they may also apply elsewhere.

One - The simpler question. Should all items which qualify for inclusion on the list and already have their own pages in wikipedia be included on the list or not?

Two - The harder question. I note that there was a radio program on the Blue Beetle for one season in 1940, and that that radio program is mentioned in passing on the Blue Beetle page. Should such items, which would not qualify as significant in their own right, be included on the list for the sake of completeness? If the concensus is "yes", I will do my best to go about finding all such "buried" items and doing the minimal revision of existing pages required to list the full name of the show and include them on the list mentioned above.Badbilltucker 13:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Additions

Added important aspects about criteria for inclusion in lists, that are inline with content policies of WP (V, NPOV, NOR and NOT) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:17, 11 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Multi-columned lists

Would it be appropriate to have a section in this guideline showing how to make two column (or more) lists? I couldn't find anything in WP explaining how to do that. There are a few ways, including divs and {{Col-begin}}.--Commander Keane 05:08, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


{{Complete-list}}

I rashly added the text below to the project page at the section, #Boilerplate text. It has rightly been brought to my attention that it may violate WP:Self. If so, then does {{Incomplete-list}} also violate WP:Self? Can anyone suggest a solution? —Markles 12:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Before or after a complete list, insert the following text which will be automatically substituted: 
{{Complete-list}}

which produces: Template:Complete-list

The purpose of this Complete list notice is to tell editors not to add or subtract from the list. It needn't be used for every complete list, just those that are constantly edited because editors did not know better. See, for example, the Edit history of List of towns in Massachusetts.

Incomplete-list is more of a clean-up tag, which are approved for use on the article namespace. A better notice would be something like <!--- This list is complete. Do not add or remove any items from this list. ---> added to the section text instead of adding the template. The message would only need to be seen by someone editing the article, as opposed to clean up tags which point out things that can be missed by both editor and reader. -- Ned Scott 13:54, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
An example of this can be seen on Canada [1]. -- Ned Scott 14:00, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've tried using the "<!-- This list is complete… -->" note, but since it's only visible in the editor, well-intentioned but incorrect users nonetheless go in and edit the list anyway, perhaps ignoring the note or by section-editing. Maybe a smaller Complete list template could be used?—Markles 15:40, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Removed racist paragraph

  • I've removed the following paragraph from the guideline:

:* Identitarian lists are another example where POV may often be incorporated. For example, on List of Jewish jurists and List of gay, lesbian or bisexual composers some editors add names to these lists out of a kind of self-affirmation. To put it frankly, editors who are themselves, Jewish, born-again, or LGBT (or otherwise wish to affirm the value of those qualities), feel comforted by adding names of famous and respected people to their List of people like me. In these types of examples, membership in the adjectival category is both contextual and often not obvious.

  • I'm shocked that this statement singling out members of minority religions/sexual orientations has stood unchallenged for the last month. The guideline is pseudo-wikipedia policy. It should not be used to cast aspersions on specific groups (as if Jews and gays were the only groups that enjoy "self-affirmation"). --JJay 14:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please do not change Wikipedia guidelines without first gathering concensus. I will add a dispute tag to the section, but I will also revert your edit. --ZsinjTalk 14:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The paragraph was added last month. Please point me to the discussion that established consensus for its addition. --JJay 14:25, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The talk page discussion you are pointing to does not even mention the paragraph. Furthermore, there was no real discussion; No consensus was reached for its addition. --JJay 14:33, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • And I quote from above, "Excercise good editorial judgement in lists dealing with controversial subjects: For example, if there is only a single source that describes the item to belogning in a list, that may not be a valid reason for inclusion, as it can the a minority POV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)". Also, Jossi had Dpbsmith append to (which assumes approval) and Garion96 agree with this. --ZsinjTalk 14:37, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you disagree with the inclusion of this, why not try to contact User:Jossi and figure out where your opinions differ? --ZsinjTalk 14:39, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The paragraph I removed was added prior to the discussion you are referring to. It was not discussed in that discussion. Only one editor voiced any type of approval. There was no discussion or consensus. The page as it stands is functioning as an attack page against Jews and gays. If we added blacks to the statement we would have the racist trifecta in all its glory. That is against wikipedia ploicies and can not stand. --JJay 14:43, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • By calling the section an "attack," you lose me. It simply says "people adding names to lists that don't belong, out of their own comfort, shouldn't." --ZsinjTalk 14:46, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • For the record, I am Jewish and I was the one that added this paragraph with the assistance and discussion from other editors. I would argue that you may be to sensitive as this paragraph has nothing in it that mey be costrued and "racist". Rather than deleting, discuss here. I am restoring this for now.≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:55, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • This is a guideline, not an article, and is consisted of ideas that incur seggestions to editors when editing pertaining to the subject the guideline is about. That's what policies and guidelines all are: Original Research backed up by the concensus of others. --ZsinjTalk 15:02, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • First, it was already restored. Second, it makes no difference to me what you are or claim to be. Wikipedia guidelines should not be singling out members of minority groups for criticism, whether Jews, blacks, gays, muslims, etc. The paragraph is full of unsubstantiated OR claims and is highly offensive. For example, how can we justify: "To put it frankly, editors who are themselves, Jewish, born-again, or LGBT...feel comforted by adding names" Do we have evidence that that is true- and more true for Jews and gays? Furthermore, there is no previous discussion on this page concerning this specific paragraph. If the underlying points in the paragraph need to be included in the guideline (which should be discussed), the points can surely be made without naming Jews and gays. -JJay 15:06, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That leaves us with, "Identitarian lists are another example where POV may often be incorporated. For example, on (removed #1) some editors add names to these lists out of a kind of self-affirmation. To put it frankly, editors who are themselves, (removed #2) (or otherwise wish to affirm the value of those qualities), feel comforted by adding names of famous and respected people to their List of people like me. In these types of examples, membership in the adjectival category is both contextual and often not obvious." --ZsinjTalk 15:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • What should we put in the place of those names? More ambiguous terms such as "lists concerning controversial subjects" (for #1) and "members of the larger controversial group" (for #2)? --ZsinjTalk 15:21, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just made the paragraph generic, without examples. I may be harder to understand, but at least does not have the chance to offend anyone. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:49, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good to me. :-) --ZsinjTalk 15:56, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I was in the midst of writing a long comment, when I saw the latest rewrite to the paragraph in question. I think I can live with the phrasing as it now stands. Good job. --JJay 16:10, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Proposed additions to this guideline

There is a discussion concerning the list guideline which is taking place on another page, which really should be being held right here on the guideline's talk page. In an effort to centralize discussion concerning lists, I'm moving that discussion here. I've also integrated another ongoing discussion from this page, because it fits well in the hierarchy of discussions presented here, and brings discussion of two nearly identical topics together.

The case has been presented that there does not exist a detailed enough list of criteria for the eligibility of lists to reside on Wikipedia. The lack of specific qualifications has contributed to a great number of heated AfD deletion discussions and edit wars. A number of criteria and related issues have been proposed, and are presented under their own subheadings below. Please contribute to these discussions. Thank you. --Polar Deluge 16:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Article worthy

The subject of the list must worthy enough for an article, or obviously and self-evidently related to another subject that deserves an article. One could write an article List of vegetables, because vegetables deserve an article. How about "list of legislative buildings by construction material" (brick, stone)? This cannot be a list because it is unreasonable to have an article called "Construction materials used in legislative buildings".

and...

A list is encyclopedic only if the topic of the list is encyclopedic. Hence:
  1. A list should not be created unless it is directly related to an existing, established, non-stub article.
  2. Lists should not be initially created as standalone articles. They should always be created as part of the existing article to which they relate. This facilitates oversight by editors with an interest in the topic of the list. Lists should only be broken out into standalone articles when their length becomes disproportionate to the rest of the article.
  1. The first proposal, as expressed by its example, would object to a "list of British billionaires" on the grounds that there shouldn't be an article titled "British billionaires". The guideline needs to be much more specific in how it applies to adjectival phrases, in order to prevent arguments. There are hundreds of lists already in existence for which the subject phrase in the title of the list would not make a good article. We would never have an article called "Chinese philosopher", or "Russian author", or "Blues genre", yet we have a list of each of these.
  2. The second proposal ignores one of the oldest applications for lists on Wikipedia: that of forging ahead in areas that lack coverage on Wikipedia. Lists often list articles that don't exist yet. Similarly, lists themselves have not been restricted when a main article was not present. Most editors like to write and edit articles, while a minority seem to like to construct lists. There is no justification given above for hampering the latter group, which is already scarce on Wikipedia. If someone is motivated to forge ahead in a subject area with lists, even though there is no such effort underway in articles, we should still take full advantage of this editor's initiative. The lists he creates may prove to be useful reference aids in the creation of articles, including ones on the lists' main subjects. Such lists may make creating outlines for new articles all the easier. Wikipedia is built on the fragments constructed by those who come before. Don't throw away the building blocks of Wikipedia! The same applies to lists as standalone articles. Not all lists belong in articles, especially those which have no corresponding article. Should the article on inventions be required to have included in it all the lists started on regional inventors? (There's more than a few, with many more to come). Should the article Australia be the mandatory starting location for all the new pages that start with "List of Australian..."? Is there room in the Australia article for them all? Nope. And which article would you start the "List of Australian inventors" in? Inventions or Australia? Requiring that lists be started in articles is nuts, and is an unnecessary restraint on creativity. --Polar Deluge 01:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with both proposals. And I'd say "No more lists of Russian Authors, Chinese Philosophers, or blues songs shall be added, all existing shall be deleted" is a good solution to Polar Deluge's adjectivial phrases. In general, I support a rule of "No lists whatsoever". The Literate Engineer 09:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vastness and maintainability

The list must be sufficiently maintainable and not unmanagably vast Something like "List of human beings" or "North American companies" would be impossible to maintain.
  • SUPER STRONG OBJECTION - I can't believe you are making the scale of an endeavor the issue here! Wikipedians don't get daunted by project size. Look at the size and scope of Wikipedia itself. If we applied the logic of this proposal to Wikipedia, there would be no Wikipedia. Wikipedia is an extremely vast collection of data, yet it is still manageable. By extension, that makes anything on Wikipedia also managable. There are some HUGE lists on Wikipedia, and these are managed just fine. There is nothing inherent in a list's potential size that makes it unmaintainable. We have the tools. We have an army of editors. "List of human beings" doesn't qualify because most humans themselves don't qualify under Wikipedia's notability requirements. And most North American companies aren't notable either. Also, Wikipedia isn't a directory. Because the examples given above do not apply, they don't illustrate what the proposal means. If a class of notable things exists in the world, then Wikipedia will most likely have a list of them eventually. Just because there are a lot of them, won't stop editors from creating the lists. Nor should it. Remember, Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. As lists grow, they can be chopped into multiple pages, and divided into sublists, or both! General lists are great, because then the topics can be sorted from there into useful sublists. Take a look at how the lists supporting philosophy have been developed from each other, lists growing out of other lists, lists copied and filtered as a starting point for further lists, etc. Let lists grow organically, and Wikipedia's editors will find better ways and develop better tools to manage them, regardless of what size they are, and regardless of the scope of the topic of the list. --Polar Deluge 02:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have a question: why would you think a large list is unmanagable? You don't sort such lists by hand, do you? Even the command prompt of Windows has a sort command that is hundreds of times faster than sorting by hand. You need to explain what you mean by unmaintainable and unmanageable. What is the difficulty that you have experienced when working with large lists that makes you want to avoid them? Sorting? Spell-checking? Gathering new links? Removing duplicate entries? I really don't understand, as all of these have very fast methods which make even extremely large lists quite manageable. --Polar Deluge 04:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commment: the key quality of lists that we need to judge them by is their relevance. Size matters not, and potential size especially matters not. And we already have a policy for determining relevance: Wikipedia:Notability. --Polar Deluge 04:04, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Merging lists

'The list is not able to be merged with another, either because of its size, the distinction of its subject or the illogicality of a merger As to the size, merging two rather similar lists would be improper if they were both very long. As to the "distinction of its subject", it would be improper to merge "African vocalists" with "African musicians", because the two are separate entities. As for the "illogicality of a merger", this is more for blatant examples, such as merging "Brands of hot dogs" with "Breeds of dogs".
  • Question: You didn't actually research your examples, did you? Nowhere on Wikipedia are vocalists a seperate entity from musicians. There are no separate lists for vocalists, because throughout wikipedia they are already included (merged) into the lists of musicians. Also, lists of "singers" seem to have been disallowed. You've got to use relevant examples, otherwise they are nothing but bad examples, which will confuse readers of the policy who take a look at the examples you've pointed out. Though I do agree with your illogicality example. --Polar Deluge 03:07, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No trivia

The list must have a reasonable plausability of usefulness. A list may not contain mere trivia that can not be used in any reasonable circumstance
  • I Object - what does "usefulness" and "use" mean here? This is way too vague. We're trying to develop guidelines that will actually help editors who are in deletion discussions easily discern what kind of list should be kept and what should be tossed. The above guideline will just leave them scratching their heads in confusion, or they will wind up arguing about interpretations of the guideline. What does the above guideline actually mean? And how can a page be tested against it? Shouldn't the term used here be "interest" or "notability"? See Wikipedia:Trivia and Wikipedia:Notability. --Polar Deluge 19:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No category substitutes

The list must not be containable in a category, either because of the number of red links that could be articles, the organization of entries not being alphabetical, or because of explanation needed beside each entry
  • I highly object, as lists are much more versatile than categories, and can be made use of in ways that categories cannot. You can't cut and paste a category very easily (it's a real pain actually), while lists are a breeze to do this with, and are in this sense quite modular. I don't see redundancy with categories as a problem, but instead I see this as a benefit to Wikipedia.
  1. First, lists are centralized link depots, categories are decentralized. You can't directly edit a category's membership, you have to go to each page to do this, but lists can be created and maintained on the spot on the page itself.
  2. Second, a page's membership in a category is often opposed by its maintainer, who removes the category link from the page. I've run into this a lot, and it results in ommissions throughout the category system. Lists don't run into this problem, because lists don't modify any pages other than itself - it's links are non-intrusive, because it links to the page and not the other way around.
  3. Third, when a page drops off a category (because someone removed its link or the page got deleted), there's no way to track this from the category. You have to either recognize that the page is missing, or (ironically) check an independent inventory list for that category. All changes to lists, on the other hand, are recorded in the list's edit history, while deleted pages show up as redlinks.
  4. Fourth, list construction and development is an ongoing process, and just because a list doesn't have any extra features yet (like annotation), doesn't mean those can't or won't be added in the future. To delete a list because it isn't augmented, duplicates effort when someone is ready to make an augmented list - it's much easier to annotate an existing list than it is to rebuild that list all over again from scratch, which is exactly what is forced to happen when a list is deleted.
  5. Fifth, with respect to reference tools, redundancy is a good thing. With lists and categories, if one subsystem doesn't have what you need, there's a complementary subsystem to check. And because of the nature of wikis, and its quirks, no system of classification is ever going to be complete (the ommissions problem previously mentioned), so having two overlapping categorization systems is actually quite helpful.

Way too many lists have been deleted by listkillers who are biased in favor of the category system. Unfortunately, the category system doesn't do a good job of replacing the list system as an indexing tool. We need to include a guideline that "because it duplicates a category" is not a valid reason to delete a list. --Polar Deluge 17:43, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No value judgements

Lists may not center around a subject that contains necessarily controversial value judgments. As mentioned in WP:LIST, one may not create a list called "List of really good authors" or "List of dictators", as these are value judgments that would draw obvious controversy. This does not, however, rule out lists of minorly subjective subjects that would only draw controversy over obvious and self-evidently improper entries. Controversial entries are demanded to have proper citation.

Also...

Avoid creating lists based on a value judgement of people or organizations. For example, a "List of obnoxious people" is clearly not acceptable, but more subtle examples could be a "List of demagogues", or "List of exploitative companies", or a "List of authoritarian leaders", as each one of these are based on value judgements even if these can pass the test of verifiability. However, it is inevitable that certain objective characterizations of things, or especially persons, will be considered either praise or condemnation by some readers. An editor need not (and cannot) generally find criteria about which no one makes a value judgement, but criteria, or inclusions/exclusions, should be done without regard to such value judgements.

I don't see any discussion about this recent addition. I think this is too vaguely worded to be useful, and the concept is already covered by WP:NPOV and by the new section Wikipedia:List guideline#Set clear, neutral, and unambiguous criteria. -Will Beback 03:01, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This was discussed on a previous proposed guideline Wikipedia:Lists_in_Wikipedia and brought up from there. If the text is too vaguely worded, let's tighten it. I believe that it is a useful addition. What about this?:
Avoid creating lists based on a value judgement of people or organizations, even if these pass the test of verifiability. However, it may be inevitable that certain objective characterizations of things, or especially persons, will be considered either praise or condemnation by some readers.
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Value judgments" is a vague term. Would "Subjective criteria" be a way of covering the same problems? -Will Beback 03:56, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
That may work, although I'd prefer value judgement. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:34, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See also what Princeton's webnet says about "value judgement": value judgment: an assessment that reveals more about the values of the person making the assessment than about the reality of what is assessed  :) ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:35, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"'Value judgment' is a judgment of the rightness or wrongness of something..." I have never seen a list things that are right or things that are wrong. I can't see how this term helps us improve the project. If that is really what you mean then I think we should leave it out entirely. -Will Beback 04:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, my reason for including this was that, for one, it already is part of an existing guideline (here), and I want to exclude blatant and controversial subjectivism while keeping lists that require "value judgments", but are clearly and obviously so. This was inspired in part from an AfD argument on List of car flops. One user contended that the definition of "car flop" is inherently POV, and therefore was welcome as an article. I, however, felt that a "car flop" was straightforward and required no formal and exact definition, and any controversial entries could simply be explained within the list or removed. I still stand by that, and I simply see no reason to delete lists like that because of a remote chance for controversy. (That explains the wording of the criterion.) As for the "List of dictators", I realize that it is a contentious issue, but truth cannot always be achieved through consensus, and no matter how many Mussolini-loyalists there are, he still was a dictator. Of course, we can have a paragraph next to each entry describing the controversy. That's the beauty of a list. You are probably in agreement with me here, so perhaps instead of removing the list, we can rephrase it somehow to assert that logic reigns on Wikipedia. What do you think?

AdamBiswanger1 02:45, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Will, Dictator and "refered to as cult" are not value judgements. The former has a definition and the List of dictators states that definition as a criterion for inclusion. The latter is also not a value judgement as it is verifiable. Compare these with List of obnxious people (a no brainer) or with List of exploitative companies. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:49, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I object to these 2 guidelines - value judgements are built-in to many descriptive terms, and describing the world is what we are supposed to be doing. As long as the description isn't POV, and is verifiable, it should be allowed. "Value judgement" is too vague. This criterion overlaps with POV and Verifiability, and those policies already cover this issue nicely. --Polar Deluge 19:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • (It took me a while to fidnt this discussion again). Polar Deluge describes the issue well. The concept that this addition is trying to cover is already inherent in existing polices, and is already covered by other parts of this guideline. This proposal is too vague to be helpful. -Will Beback 21:36, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't use the name of a list to assert a certain POV

Avoid using the name of the list as a way to assert a certain POV. A "List of famous British people" asserts that the people in the list are famous. A better name could be "List of noted British people", or simpler "List of British people", as these will be listed only if they pass the Wikipedia:Notability test. Avoid using terms that are in dispute as the main descriptor for the list. For example, "List of pseudoscientists" may not be appropriate as the term itself is disputed. A better name in this case could be "List of people described as pseudoscientists".
  • I object - This goes to descriptor again, and you are confusing POV presented in the title, with POV applied to whether someone is a member of a list. A descriptor is okay if it isn't POV and if it is verifiable, and it doesn't matter if it is abstract or subjective, as that applies at the member level, and not the list title level. And there are dozens of lists of famous people and things on Wikipedia. Famous people do exist, and are reported to exist in other sources, and so there is no reason why Wikipedia should not report them too. There are dozens of "famous" lists on Wikipedia already. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllpages&from=List+of+famous&namespace=0 --Polar Deluge 19:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

":I can see that you object to all the proposals. Are you saying that you see no problems whatsoever with lists in Wikipedia? 15:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I see no problems in lists that these proposals would fix that are not already covered in existing Wikipedia policies. Nor do I see any problems with lists addressed here that regular articles don't have. Lists are articles. The problems you are addressing are the same ones that plague all of Wikipedia and which have already been addressed in its policies concerning all pages. The list guideline should only cover issues that pertain only to lists. We don't need to reinvent the wheel, nor reprint Wikipedia policy. Most of the policies referenced in this discussion were polished via consensus over a great deal of time by a great many editors and so are very well thought out and very well written. It would be a major undertaking to write redundant guidelines as well written as those policies, without of course copying them verbatim. Therefore, we shouldn't - such duplicates have a high probabiity of being scewed, biased, bent, warped, vague, confusing, misleading, and in error. We should rely on Wikipedia's already established bedrock policies. They apply the same to lists as to every other page on Wikpedia, and THEY DO NOT NEED TO BE PARAPHRASED FOR THIS GUIDELINE. Most of the proposals presented in this discussion are entirely redundant and are so poorly written that they could be interpretted in many different ways. Some are so vague and incoherent that I had to guess at what they meant. Most include examples that don't even portray the guideline they are representing. If these proposals were adopted, a great many valid lists would be subject to deletion. So I'm against all of them. My advice is to wipe the slate clean, and start over from scratch with an analysis of specific problem lists as test cases from which to identify list-specific problems and then develop editing solutions for those problems. When a solution has been tested successfully on a sufficient number of lists, then its inclusion in the guideline should be discussed on this talk page. --Polar Deluge 08:04, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Always include list membership criteria

To avoid problems with lists, the criteria for inclusion must comply with Wikipedia:Verifiability. That is, if someone is listed as an X, that person must have been identified as an X by a reliable published source. Also be aware of original research when selecting the criteria for inclusion: use a criterion that is widely agreed upon rather than inventing new criteria that cannot be verified as notable or that is not widely accepted.
Lists should always include unambiguous statements of membership criteria based on definitions made by reputable sources, especially in difficult or contentious topics. Beware of those cases in which the definitions themselves are disputed. Many lists on Wikipedia have been created without any membership criteria, and editors are left to guess about what or whom should be included only from the name of the list. Even if it might "seem obvious" what qualifies for membership in a list, explicit is better than implicit.
Keep this. It's very helpful.Universitytruth 14:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Get rid of it. It's instruction creep. To quote the instruction creep page: "Process is evil." We should keep the instructions short and simple. Everything in the above clause is already covered in existing policies, and isn't even written as well as those, making it somewhat more ambiguous (and confusing). Also, it recommends the wrong solution. "List of dog breeds" already has clear enough membership criteria that it doesn't need to be explained in any greater detail. The name of a list in most cases contains explicit criteria for membership - where it isn't explicit enough probably means that the list title should be changed so it is explicit. All lists are already subject to the policy on verifiability, therefore that policy doesn't need to be repeated on each and every list (which is what is implied above by "compliance", based on the example provided). What a waste of the reader's time. Wikipedia:Notability, Wikipedia:Verifiability, and Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not already define acceptable article names and subjects for inclusion. And always beware instructions that include the word "always" (including this sentence).  :-) --Polar Deluge 07:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Amplification (note that Universitytruth is my former main account, now in retirement): I agree that "List of dog breeds" needs no further instructions. If you could share with us a clear, non-controversial definition of "philosopher," that would need no further discussion, that would be very useful for the various lists of philosophers. If you are unable to do that, I would submit that some unambiguous statement of membership criteria is helpful.--Anthony Krupp 12:11, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Set clear, neutral, and unambiguous criteria

Ensure that the criteria for inclusion in the list are neutral and based on widely accepted definitions of terms. Both clear criteria and adherence to these criteria must take priority over any praise or condemnation an editor may feel is implied by membership. Some lists cover characterizations that can be considered negative. Such lists, if not carefully maintained can be used to promote a certain POV. Opponents of a subject may attempt to include it in the list despite that it does not meet the list criteria; and conversely supporters may attempt to remove that it despite meeting the list criteria.
Identitarian lists are another example where POV may often be incorporated. For example, on List of Jewish jurists, List of born-again Christian laypeople, and List of gay, lesbian or bisexual composers some editors add names to these lists out of a kind of self-affirmation. To put it frankly, editors who are themselves, Jewish, born-again, or LGBT (or otherwise wish to affirm the value of those qualities), feel comforted by adding names of famous and respected people to their List of people like me. In these types of examples, membership in the adjectival category is both contextual and often not obvious.
  • Attention: This was on the project page, having been cut and pasted from the draft "Wikipedia:Lists in Wikipedia", which never reached concensus, and so I've moved it here for further discussion. See Wikipedia talk:Lists in Wikipedia/Archive 2 for previous discussion. --Polar Deluge 04:42, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • The two sections above (Always include membership criteria and Set clear, neutral, and unambiguous criteria) were to me the most useful things on WP:LIST! I would very much like to see them back in the article. I'm still helping to develop a few lists, and I think that these sections contain excellent guidance.Universitytruth 14:55, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, except for the racist homophobic paragraph, that is. The first paragraph (from Ensure to criteria) is great. I see no value in the second one. Can we put the first one back and discuss the second one here (if necessary)?
      • I noted that the offensive paragraph above was edited into an acceptable form on the article page a few days ago, as follows:
"Identitarian lists, those lists related to religious affiliation, sexual identity, political affiliation, etc., are another example where POV may often be incorporated. Some editors add names to such lists out of a kind of self-affirmation, feeling comforted by adding names of famous and respected people to their List of people like me. In these types of examples, membership in the adjectival category is both contextual and often not obvious." Universitytruth 14:56, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why did an older version get copied to this page? Perhaps that was inadvertant. No matter. How do people feel about this paragraph directly above? I think it's much less awful than the previous version. Universitytruth 15:35, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It makes a claim ("that some editors add names to such lists out of a kind of self-affirmation") that would take a mind reader to verify. How do you know what those editors were thinking? You talk about their comfort level and everything. Where did all these "facts" come from? --Polar Deluge 09:19, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
True; actually, I think the whole paragraph could go. My initial intent (as I wrote through my former primary account and now SP, universitytruth) was to just improve the paragraph. But as you say, it is still problematic. It can go, IMO.--Anthony Krupp 19:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lists should generally only represent consensus opinion

The principle of Neutral Point of View, declares that we have to describe competing views without asserting any one in particular and that minority points of view should not be presented as if they were the majority point of view. When dealing with lists, this can become a challenge. If you include leader XYZ in List of dictators on the basis of a mention of XYZ being a dictator by one source, be sure to confirm that this is a widely held opinion, otherwise you will be in disregard of NPOV. Wikipedia:Reliable sources applies equally to a list of like things as it does for the content article on each individual thing listed.
For purposes of list inclusion, the most reliable source is the long-standing consensus of editors on the content article of the thing listed; the failure of a content article to support list inclusion criteria should be treated as prima facie evidence against its inclusion in the list. Transient or widely disputed characterizations on a content article should be treated with suspicion by list editors. List editors should also consider whether a characterization within a content article, even if long-standing, is presented as consensus opinion or as the position of a specific named external source; in the latter case, the citation to an external source is only as good as the external source is.

Think of the reader

When creating new lists, think of the reader: Does the list add value? Is the list's criteria so open-ended as to welcome infinite results or abuse? Is there a category in Wikipedia already for the same subject? If so, could the list add something the category can't? Is there a reason for creating the list other than "it would be cool" or "just for the hell of it"? Lists should enhance the encyclopedic value of content rather than diminish it.

Explore the alternatives

Categories are self-maintaining. If you aim primarily to collect all the articles on foo, consider adding them to category:foo; project infoboxes can automatically add articles to categories (and bots can be written which automatically collect from categories and present lists sorted by other criteria; Mathbot is one such). Lists which consist solely of links and nothing else are liable to speedy deletion under criterion A3. Conversely, if you have a short list of people related to a given subject, it may be simpler just to include it in the main article.
  • I object: Categories are not self-maintaining, and are in fact can be very cumbersome to maintain. For some categories, there is widespread disagreement over which articles belong in them, and this is usually policed at the page level by each page's watchers. As mentioned above, this has created many holes in categories. If you are trying to complete a category by going around adding tags to all the relevant pages, and you come across maintainers who disagree with you, adding those pages becomes an uphill battle. Add the links to a list and be done with it. The guideline above is redundant with the no category substitutes guideline above. --Polar Deluge 04:01, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lists are subject to the verifiability policy, just like all other Wikipedia content.

Hence:

:Each item on a list is an individual fact and requires an individual source.

:Each item needs its own citation allowing that item to be traced to a published source which confirms that the item belongs on the list.

:For some lists, many items may have the same source. Nevertheless, each item needs its own citation. A single blanket statement will not do, because future editing may add items to the list that are not contained in that source.

:Wikipedia articles are not considered reliable sources for other articles. Therefore, in the case of a list item that is linked to a Wikipedia article, regardless of what that article may say, it is still necessary for the list to include its own source that confirms that the the item belongs in the list. For example, even though the article on Walter Mossberg states that he is a graduate of Brandeis University, Walter Mossberg should not be included in a list of Brandeis alumni without also including a direct source citation such as http://ptech.wsj.com/walt.html . If the linked article contains a source that confirms that the item belongs on the list, that citation should be copied to the list so that the that list item cites it directly.

Verifiability applies

Verifiability should be strictly enforced for lists that include names of living people===

In the case of names of living people appearing on lists:

  • If there is any reasonable possibility that a person could object to their inclusion on a list, the verifiability policy should be enforced strictly. This means that unsourced entries should not merely be tagged as needing citations, but should be removed immediately.

Dpbsmith (talk) 13:44, 18 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agree with the above. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:27, 12 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also agree. Especially the second and third addition seem very important. Garion96 (talk) 01:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree. Verifiability shouldn't be any more strictly enforced for one type of list over another. Removing items from a list can cripple it. Concensus should be reached before deconstructing a list! Strictly enforcing verifiability on lists that others have worked hard on will get you nothing but a reversion war. Here's a good example: List of major philosophers. They had a huge war on there concerning verifiability. Those defending the list won. The majority concluded that the list was too valuable to delete even though it was not sourced. But a quick glance at the article for anyone on this list would confirm pretty quickly whether he was major or not. When an article, which is supposed to have citations already, makes it clear that its subject qualifies for inclusion on a list, that should be good enough for inclusion. Since the vast majority of Wikipedia's content isn't verified, it is far too easy to use the verifiability issue as an excuse to delete whatever you personally don't agree with. In the philosopher example above, those who couldn't get Ayn Rand added to the list demanded that the rest of the philosophers on the list be deleted because they were not verified. They even tried to AfD the article. That kind of behavior just isn't appropriate on Wikipedia. We're trying to build an encyclopedia here, not dismantle it as we go. If you are fairly certain that an item belongs on a list, then add it. And if you find an item that you agree belongs on a list, but it doesn't have a source citation, then don't delete it, go find a reference, or give someone else the opportunity to by leaving the item on the list. Deleting entries because they are unverified is just plain lazy - do Wikipedia a favor and provide the verfication yourself: in most cases, it's out there on the Internet and fairly easy to find. --Polar Deluge 03:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't think we need to restate already existing policies, because they apply to lists already. NPOV, Notability, Verifiability, etc. These already apply to all articles, including lists. --Polar Deluge 03:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Only that we have now WP:BLP that forces us to pay specific attention to articles about ;living people. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:08, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial subjects

Excercise good editorial judgement in lists dealing with controversial subjects. For example, if there is only a single source that describes the item to belogning in a list, that may not be a valid reason for inclusion, as it can the a minority POV. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Are you saying that you have never seen lists of controversial subjects used for POV pushing? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:23, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't seen any that the above guideline would fix. "Exercise good editorial judgement" is a platitude, and is almost completely undefined here. Besides, POV'ers completely ignore guidelines anyways, except where it serves them. The above clause is already implied in everything that Wikipedia stands for. We don't want editors to edit badly - it goes without saying. But my main point is that the clause is just too general and vague to be useful. The example seems to the main point you are getting at, and whether or not a single reference is worthy is a judgement call subject to consensus. Again, you are simply covering territory which is already tied up nicely by WP:VER and WP:NPOV. --Polar Deluge 09:32, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There should not be a "list of X" unless there is an article on the topic "X"

There are exceptions, but, in general, a "list of X" should only be created if X itself is a legitimate encyclopedic topic that already has its own article. The list should originate as a section within that article, and should not be broken out into a separate article until it becomes so long as to be disproportionate to the rest of the article. It is very appropriate for the article on Zoology to include a list of notable zoologists within it, and for the article on the fictional series character Rick Brant to include a list of the Rick Brant books. Valid examples of standalone lists would include List of University of Chicago people and The Oz Books. In both cases, the lists correspond closely to encyclopedia articles—University of Chicago and L. Frank Baum, respectively—and in both cases the length and detail of the list justify breaking them out.
On the other hand, topics such as List of small-bust models and performers, List of songs that contain the laughter of children, and List of nasal singers should be considered highly questionable because there are no articles on Small-bust models and performers, Songs that contain the laughter of children, or Nasal singers.
Dpbsmith (talk) 15:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I STRONGLY OBJECT - The exceptions to the above "rule" are the important matter here, and the main result of the above clause will be to make it harder for the exceptions to survive. That lists can be created without an underlying article being in place is acceptable, but the above clause implies that it is not in the vast majority of cases. If a list is ridiculously pointless, it will very likely be deleted. Wikipedians aren't stupid. Also, the above examples don't pass Wikipedia:Notability, so this scenario is already covered by existing Wikipedia policy. We don't need arbitrary guidelines like the above to determine the worthiness of lists. Also, the terms "in general" and "should only" are contradictory, with the implication swaying toward "should only". It's a bad and badly written guideline, which will create uncertainty and confusion. Get rid of it. --Polar Deluge 09:48, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • This can be fixed by saying there should not normally be a list of X unless there is an article on the topic X. That would do. As a guideline it is very easily understood and unambiguous; let's say someone wants to create a list of makers of green socks - makers of socks is encyclopaedic, green is encyclopaedic, but makers of green socks is not. A list of makers of gren socks would fail AfD without question. The underlying purpose is sound: before creating a list, first demonstrate that the list criteria are of some encyclopaedic merit and not an arbitrary collection of information (pr WP:NOT). Just zis Guy you know? 10:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

New proposed guideline

A new proposed guideline has been created at List Guidelines Reborn. Feel free to read it, consider it, and state your opinions on it there. AdamBiswanger1 03:02, 26 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All of the clauses from the proposed guideline are included above on this talk page. I humbly request that we continue the discussions here, as the most comments on each topic have been written here, and because it is standard practice on Wikipedia to discuss proposed changes to a guideline on the guideline's talk page. --Polar Deluge 09:35, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. -- Ned Scott 10:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A test case

Per Polar Deluge's suggestion above, I would like to draw your attention to List of German-language philosophers. Both because it may help clarify the proposal above (also currently in the article itself) about 'including membership criteria', and because your comments may help me in developing said list. This is at the top of the article:

The following individuals have written philosophical texts in the German-language. Many are categorized as German philosophers or Austrian philosophers, but some are neither German nor Austrian by ethnicity or nationality. Each one, however, satisfies at least one of the following criteria:

  1. s/he has been identified as a philosopher in any reputable, reliable encylopedic/scholarly publication (e.g. MacMillan, Stanford, Routledge, Oxford, Metzler.)
  2. s/he has authored multiple articles published in reputable, reliable journals of philosophy and/or written books that were reviewed in such journals.

In my opinion, this is helpful information because (1) some people may be confused about whether the philosophers in question are German or wrote in the German language, (2) we are stating clearly how we are verifying that these individuals are philosophers (per criterion one). I'm not thrilled with criterion two yet, and that is under discussion on the List's talk page. But I think it is not obvious to anyone what makes a philosopher, which is why an explicit statement at the top of the article seems a very good idea, at least to this wikipedian editor who is not an idiot. :) Also, please note that the text at the top of the list avoids self-reference, per another excellent guideline. That is, the two paragraphs above could be used in a paper version as well. What do you all think about this? Does this provide an argument for or against including the bit about 'including membership criteria' in the List guideline? Thanks. --Anthony Krupp 19:23, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ASR?

Sorry, no, the above is not conform to Wikipedia:Avoid self-references. Think about print is only one of the aspects of WP:ASR. Hiding a self-reference in a piped link, like it is done in the example above (''[[WP:VER|reputable]]'' and ''[[WP:RS|reliable]]''), maybe doesn't bother print versions, but is still a unacceptable self-reference. --Francis Schonken 20:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarifying that. But otherwise: what about the idea of having the guidelines there at all? Again, I think they're useful, but per discussion above, PolarDeluge may not agree with that. I'd be interested in hearing from PD and other editors on this question. Thanks, --Anthony Krupp 21:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I'm usually clear, I think, but am not doing a good job of being so here! What I meant was: what about the idea of having any text whatsoever at the top of a list? If the list is called List of brown dogs, probably one doesn't need a statement at the top of the list saying "This is a list of brown dogs." Nor would I recommend having text like "This is a list of German-language philosophers." (That has self-reference.) But my question is: should there be no text whatsoever at the top of the list I'm putting forward as a test case (or at the top of any list)? Or could there be some kind of statement like the one I've suggested?--Anthony Krupp 14:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Use of the introductory text

  • Note that you already gave yourself away: you called the introduction to the German-language philosophers' list "guidelines". That may be a slip of the tongue. But I suppose that is how you see it. No, there is no place for a "manual" or "guidelines" on how to use a list (or whatever other article) in article namespace. Such guidelines are no encyclopedic content and should be removed from article namespace.
  • Any other definition of the list than "This is a list of German-language philosophers" would be thwarting the name of the article, or would need a reference explaining why generally "German-language philosophers" (as in the title) is not a synonym to "German-language philosophers" (as in the list).
  • Your current definition doesn't work: (for instance) a German-language author who publishes novels in German, and philosophical texts in English, would for no distinguishable reason be excluded from the list if the present artificial definition were to be followed.
  • Looking through Talk:List of German-language philosophers I can only see that for about a month now an enormous amount of text and discussion was produced in search of an unnecessary definition. No, that effort did not improve the list, as far as I can see. If some entries in the list were doubtful, you could have tagged them {{fact}}, instead of commenting them out (like someone apparently did with Goethe at some point). Really, I can't see a single good reason why all that distraction was created. As far as I can see that only led away from the real purpose, creating a good list of German-language philosophers. --Francis Schonken 00:09, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Nowhere do I refer to the introduction to the List of German-language philosophers as a guideline (thus I have not given myself, or anything else, away); where I used the word 'guideline' above, I was obliquely referring to WP:ASR. I hope that is clearer now.
  2. I disagree that lists should only have tautological definitions. Unless you are going to tell me that 'a philosopher is a philosopher,' it is, I think, important to indicate the sources we are using to verify that a given individual is listed as a philosopher by a reliable source. It's not like it's a list of brown dogs, where no one reasonably expects the terms brown or dog to be of doubtful signification.
  3. Which German-language novelist who is also an English-language philosopher do you have in mind? Cases like these can be discussed on the Talk page. In the meantime, you should know that this List is able to pick up the 'category errors' of of the Category:German_philosophers, not to mention similar lists/categories of Austrian and Swiss ones. For example, Alexander Baumgarten was a German philosopher whose work is in Latin. So he would appear on one list, but not the other. Juergen Habermas appears on both lists. Salomon Maimon was a Lithuanian Jew, so does not appear on the List of German philosophers, but does appear on the List of German-language philosophers. You see? That's the value of the list: to identify authors of German-language philosophy, without concern for that author's blood or passport (which other lists and categories take into account, without regard for language of the texts).
  4. While I can agree that not every moment of discussion on the related Talk page has immediately led to stunning results, I do think that engaged discussion has led to significant cooperation among the three main editors. And if you compare the list now to the list a month ago, you'll see that the list is indeed longer, and that now every (visible) name in the list has a footnote attached. Everything is documented. Whereas before, the names were just there, and they included a number of individuals not generally considered philosophers.

Anyway, I don't mean to ask for comment and then refute all of your points! I'm sorry if I'm being rude here; perhaps I'm too close to the list. But I and the others have worked very hard on it, and at least the three of us feel that having some explicit criteria listed (but still avoiding self-reference) is a good idea. I'd still be interested in more feedback, but perhaps on that list's talk page. I'll watch this page as well, though, for further discussion that may help develop the List guideline.

Again: I think that keeping the section on 'including membership criteria' is a good idea. --Anthony Krupp 12:00, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oops, have to apologize myself. Apparently you meant Wikipedia:List guideline#Lists and criteria for inclusion of list members when you wrote "what about the idea of having the guidelines there at all?" above. To answer that rhetorical question, which isn't rhetorical in my view: yes, what about the idea of having the guidelines there at all? --Francis Schonken 08:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See above.--Anthony Krupp 14:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I would have preferred you would have contributed to the discussions on this page always with the same account. Listing several entries in a same discussion under different names (like you did above in #Always include list membership criteria) kind of muddies the waters, not withstanding your honesty which I appreciate.
For clarity, were there still other accounts/identities/user names you used in this discussion (or in edits of Wikipedia:List guideline) apart from "Universitytruth" and "Anthony Krupp"? --Francis Schonken 08:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It was in the interest of clarity that I've twice signalled on this page (with no prompting) that I was formerly using Universitytruth as my main account; I recently created a new account using my real name, and as soon as I figured out how to do so, I also changed the userpage on both accounts to indicate that one is a master account and the other is an alternate of that account. Anyone can visit my userpages to see this and to see why I've retired one of the accounts for the time being. (Think Bruce Wayne and Batman.) Cheers,--Anthony Krupp 14:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Back to substance: are there editors here who truly believe that no List on wikipedia should have any descriptive statement at the top of the list? If so, I would like to discuss that with you.--Anthony Krupp 14:52, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lists and criteria for inclusion of list members (revisited)

I've revised the two paragraphs that are listed above (here and here, as well as on the article page itself. In the interest of improving and building consensus, I submit the following for discussion as a rewording or even a replacement of those disputed paragraphs. (My German-language philosopher example can be replaced with something else; I add it just to give us something to discuss.)

Statement of list membership criteria When the List's title already unambiguously states the membership criteria, e.g. "List of species of dogs," no further statement is necessary. But when the List's title involves a disputed term, e.g. "List of German-language philosophers," a short statement at the top of the list is advisable, e.g. "The following individuals have written philosophical texts in the German-language. Many are categorized as German philosophers or Austrian philosophers, but some are neither German nor Austrian by ethnicity or nationality."

I think the preceding responds to PolarDeluge's suggestion not to reinvent the wheel by referring to WP:VER etc. in these guidelines. I think it also makes an important point about reducing instruction creep in lists where instructions are superfluous, and giving a clear indication for the reader of other lists that can truly help him/her make sense of them. Comments?--Anthony Krupp 15:14, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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