Talk:Hellenic Parliament
I think "Parliament of Greece" would be a better title than "Hellenic Parliament" for two reasons. First, the pattern 'Parliament of XXX' is the usual one in Wikipedia: we have Parliament of Italy, for example, not 'Italian Parliament', the literal translation of Parlamento Italiano. Secondly, "Hellas/Hellenic" is not the common name for Greece in English, as has already been discussed in Talk:Greece many times. Thoughts? --Macrakis 02:44, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
- I completely agree with this rationale. Should the article be moved to Parliament of Greece, with Hellenic Parliament as a redirect? -Fsotrain09 22:57, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. Apart from Vouli ton Ellinon the Greek Parliamment is also known as Ellinikon Koinovoulion in Greece, not Koinovoulion tis Ellados. Therefore Hellenic Parliament is an exact translation of the the term often used in Greece (i,e. Ellinikon Koinovoulion) and thus preferable. Given that Greece is the origin of Democracy the translation should try to reflect the Greek terminology. Dr.K. 15:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Macrakis. All the articles about the Parliaments follow the pattern 'Parliament of XXX'. Are we trying to be original by creating our own pattern? And I donot agree that the translation should be exact. If we believed that, then we should name the article about our country Hellenic Republic not Greece, because Hellenic Republic is the "exact" name of our country. Translations must be clear and understandable not "exact"! And the argument that "Greece is the origin of Democracy" is irrelevant. If the title of the article changes, are we going to forget that "Greece is the origin of Democracy"?!--Yannismarou 12:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- The same way there is Boule (Ancient Greece) we can rename the Hellenic Parliament as Boule ton Ellinon if we must rename it at all as there is already the precedent of the ancient Greek Boule article. By calling it Parliament in the first place we don't do justice to the term Boule that comes from the Greek will, not from Parlez that means talk i.e. Parliament. However Hellenic Parliament is still a rough analogy to Ellinikon Koinovoulion. By renaming it Parliament of Greece we obscure all possible Greek onomatology and therefore we lose in the translation. We should be more careful when doing that because the craftsmen of Democracy have created terms that we can learn from. If we iron these terms so that we fit a pattern why then don't we rename the Knesset to Parliament of Israel? We kept it as Knesset for a reason: out of respect for the original Israeli term. We should show the same respect for the onomatology of the original craftsmen of Democracy. Dr.K. 13:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- Because Knesset is the way all the world knows the Parliament of Israel. By naming it Knesset we donot obscure its meaning. On the other hand, "Greek" has the exact same meaning with "hellenic" with one difference: "Greek" is the word everybody now uses! Not "hellenic"! Even the Greek embassies are obliged to clarify what "Hellenic Republic" means, because nobody understands the origin of their official documents! Hence, "Greek"="Hellenic"="of Greece". And "Greek" or "of Greece" is preferable, because these are universally the common terms! How do we lose in the translation?
- Now, "Κοινοβούλιο" comes from the hellenistic word "κοινοβούλιον" not the ancient Greek word "βουλή". And "κοινοβούλιον"=general Assembly. But Parliament means also "general Assembly"! And I ask you again how do we lose in the translation? And since "κοινοβούλιον" is a hellenistic word and it does not mean the same thing with "βουλή" why you say that: "We should show the same respect for the onomatology of the original craftsmen of Democracy". But they did not create the word "κοινοβούλιον"! They created the word "βουλή" not "κοινοβούλιον"! The successors of Alexander who was not a democrat created the specific word!!
- Additionally, in the Greek constitutional theory and science, "κοινοβουλευτισμός" or "κοινοβουλευτικό σύστημα" is a term used to describe the organization of modern parliaments. It is thus based on the evolution of the English Parliament. Thereby, even in Greek science the term "κοινοβουλευτισμός" is not connected with the ancient Athenian "βουλή", which represends a regime (direct democracy) comletely different form the current Greek regime (parliamentary democracy), center of which is the "κοινοβούλιον"(=Parliament); not an institution similar to the ancient Athenian "βουλή".--Yannismarou 14:06, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- Quote: Now, "Κοινοβούλιο" comes from the hellenistic word "κοινοβούλιον" not the ancient Greek word "βουλή". But the hellenistic word does derive from βουλή by adding the term κοινο that means common, so it evolved into common will. Here we see a natural evolution from direct democracy to a representative one. This evolution is important historically and onomatologically. By κοινοβουλευτικό σύστημα we refer to a common will system not exactly what Parliamentary system implies as Parliamentary derives from Parlez i.e. to talk not to will as in common will implied by κοινοβουλευτισμός. I know subtle differences but Democracy is a subtle system. Common will carries different implications than common talk. So κοινοβούλιον is not the same as Parliament. By obscuring or papering over these differences or try to forcibly assimilate them we lose information. And that would be ok except English is such a rich and accomodating language. The alternative terms exist, let's use them. If one term is more popular than the other sounds too facile. We should not kill onomatology on the basis of a few Google hits. In time with the aid of a few redirects Boule ton Ellinon can become as popular as Knesset. Until then, let's stick with Hellenic Parliament in the interim since it's already here and it is a compromise since it uses the term Hellenic which is shared by the Boule ton Ellinon, the rightful final destination of the article title. There is no reason to further obscure its meaning by putting it to another onomatologically opaque vault. Differences are the essence of Democracy. Wikipedia should reflect that. Dr.K. 15:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- OK! Since Parliament of Greece redirects here it is not a major problem form me. I just want to insist that words do not always reflect the truth. The current parliamentarism is not the evolution of the ancient "direct democracy", but the evolution of the English system of representatives, starting with the Magna Carta. Hence, the evolution that the words show (from βουλή to κοινοβούλιο) is not reflected in the historical reality. What I mean is that the current parliamentary system is not the evolution of the Athenian "radical" or "direct democracy". Respectively the current Parliament (κονοβούλιο) is not the evolution of the ancient Boule (βουλή). I must also point out that in the Greek legal (consitutional) science "κοινοβούλιο" and "κοινοβουλευτισμός" mean exactly the same thing with "Parliament" and "parliamentary system". We are lying to ourselves if we believe that the democracy we have now is the evolution of the Athenian democracy! It is not!! It is the mere evolution of the English (by- or unicameral) parliamentarism.--Yannismarou 16:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- Quote: Now, "Κοινοβούλιο" comes from the hellenistic word "κοινοβούλιον" not the ancient Greek word "βουλή". But the hellenistic word does derive from βουλή by adding the term κοινο that means common, so it evolved into common will. Here we see a natural evolution from direct democracy to a representative one. This evolution is important historically and onomatologically. By κοινοβουλευτικό σύστημα we refer to a common will system not exactly what Parliamentary system implies as Parliamentary derives from Parlez i.e. to talk not to will as in common will implied by κοινοβουλευτισμός. I know subtle differences but Democracy is a subtle system. Common will carries different implications than common talk. So κοινοβούλιον is not the same as Parliament. By obscuring or papering over these differences or try to forcibly assimilate them we lose information. And that would be ok except English is such a rich and accomodating language. The alternative terms exist, let's use them. If one term is more popular than the other sounds too facile. We should not kill onomatology on the basis of a few Google hits. In time with the aid of a few redirects Boule ton Ellinon can become as popular as Knesset. Until then, let's stick with Hellenic Parliament in the interim since it's already here and it is a compromise since it uses the term Hellenic which is shared by the Boule ton Ellinon, the rightful final destination of the article title. There is no reason to further obscure its meaning by putting it to another onomatologically opaque vault. Differences are the essence of Democracy. Wikipedia should reflect that. Dr.K. 15:20, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- The same way there is Boule (Ancient Greece) we can rename the Hellenic Parliament as Boule ton Ellinon if we must rename it at all as there is already the precedent of the ancient Greek Boule article. By calling it Parliament in the first place we don't do justice to the term Boule that comes from the Greek will, not from Parlez that means talk i.e. Parliament. However Hellenic Parliament is still a rough analogy to Ellinikon Koinovoulion. By renaming it Parliament of Greece we obscure all possible Greek onomatology and therefore we lose in the translation. We should be more careful when doing that because the craftsmen of Democracy have created terms that we can learn from. If we iron these terms so that we fit a pattern why then don't we rename the Knesset to Parliament of Israel? We kept it as Knesset for a reason: out of respect for the original Israeli term. We should show the same respect for the onomatology of the original craftsmen of Democracy. Dr.K. 13:38, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Macrakis. All the articles about the Parliaments follow the pattern 'Parliament of XXX'. Are we trying to be original by creating our own pattern? And I donot agree that the translation should be exact. If we believed that, then we should name the article about our country Hellenic Republic not Greece, because Hellenic Republic is the "exact" name of our country. Translations must be clear and understandable not "exact"! And the argument that "Greece is the origin of Democracy" is irrelevant. If the title of the article changes, are we going to forget that "Greece is the origin of Democracy"?!--Yannismarou 12:58, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. Apart from Vouli ton Ellinon the Greek Parliamment is also known as Ellinikon Koinovoulion in Greece, not Koinovoulion tis Ellados. Therefore Hellenic Parliament is an exact translation of the the term often used in Greece (i,e. Ellinikon Koinovoulion) and thus preferable. Given that Greece is the origin of Democracy the translation should try to reflect the Greek terminology. Dr.K. 15:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)