Talk:Musical notation

Symbol Request

Could someone upload Lilypond PNGs to support the articles Da capo, Dal Segno, Coda, and Fermata please? That would be most appreciated. -Lommer | ^talk 07:19, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Stave vs. Staff

Isn't the correct English term stave?)

It appears that staff and stave are usually the same and that staff is more common. --rmhermen

Staves is the plural of staff. Webster says that stave can also mean staff (singular), but I think we should stick with staff for singular. -- Merphant

I believe that stave is more common in British usage, while staff is used in the U.S. UninvitedCompany

In the same light, nobody in the U.S. will understand a word you're saying if you go on about crochets and quavers and so forth. The terms here are whole/half/quarter/eigth/sixteenth (etc) note. UninvitedCompany

The American Heritage Dictionary, first edition, does not allow "stave" in the musical sense as singular AT ALL. I think we should preserve the distinction. Despite the confused British usage (which may actually be a MINORITY British usage or a relatively new British usage), "staff/staves" is properly like "leaf/leaves", "wife/wives", "knife/knives", and so on.

Not minority usage at all in my experience. Until reading this article, I'd never heard of the use of "staff" like this, despite signing in a church choir for 5 years and taking a Music GCSE. --Celestianpower ^háblame 16:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

symbols

I'm removing this table from the article -- I am on a Mac which shows the characters from the Japanese wiki fine -- but nada for these. -- Tarquin 20:55 Nov 2, 2002 (UTC)

I'd like to see this kind of table in the article. I'll start to recreate (most of) it using Lilypond and outputting png files. - Tobin Richard

I've created a few of the images that will be needed. I've been grouping similar symbols together. Image:Music_rests.png, Image:Music_notes.png, Image:Music_clefs.png. I'll try to get more done in the coming days. - Tobin Richard

Aren't the clefs a bit small? They look like the size you'd use for a change of clef midway through a line - I think it'd be better to have full size clefs. It's not a big deal, I suppose, but the C clef really ought to be as tall as the staff. --Camembert

What font should I have installed to see any of these? (Windows XP Home + IE6) Phil 15:53, Dec 3, 2003 (UTC)

If you mean the stuff in the article, they're images in PNG format, so if your browser supports PGNs, you should be able to see them regardless of fonts. If you mean the stuff in the table below, I don't have a clue - I can't see them, and neither can plenty of others (that's why they were taken out of the article). --Camembert

I did a quick Google for "music notation font" and got a shed-load. I'm out of my depth here, can anyone help? Phil 14:51, Dec 5, 2003 (UTC)

I take it you mean fonts for viewing the table below? I don't think you'll have any luck. http://www.music-notation.info/en/compmus/musicfonts.html might be useful for music based fonts but to the best of my knowledge there isn't a browser that will understand Unicode music. Lilypond uses the Feta font for typesetting. - Tobin Richard

I went to the Unicode site and took a look, and that table is basically a list of the "Musical Symbols" sub-page of the Unicode character set. So logically there must be a font somewhere that I can convince IE to use when this page turns up on a Web Page (which is what it thinks Wikipedia pages are, after all). I'll take a look where you suggest, but I'm not holding my breath :-) Phil 09:02, Dec 8, 2003 (UTC)

There are some Unicode characters for which no fonts (or at least no useable fonts) exist. The unicode site has a list of the groups that provided fonts used in generating their charts at http://www.unicode.org/charts/fonts.html If you do find a music font then there is a very high probability that it wont be useable by windows. - Tobin Richard

You're right the clefs are a bit small (a result of the way I produced the image). I'll create a better version of the image soon. - Tobin Richard

table of symbols

Character	Name
𝄀	Single Barline
𝄁	Double Barline
𝄂	Final Barline
𝄃	Reverse Final Barline
𝄄	Dashed Barline
𝄅	Short Barline
𝄆	Left Repeat Sign
𝄇	Right Repeat Sign
𝄈	Repeat Dots
𝄉	Dal Segno
𝄊	Da Capo
𝄋	Segno
𝄌	Coda
𝄍	Repeated Figure-1
𝄎	Repeated Figure-2
𝄏	Repeated Figure-3
𝄐	Fermata
𝄑	Fermata Below
𝄒	Breath Mark
𝄓	Caesura
𝄔	Brace
𝄕	Bracket
𝄖	One-Line Staff
𝄗	Two-Line Staff
𝄘	Three-Line Staff
𝄙	Four-Line Staff
𝄚	Five-Line Staff
𝄛	Six-Line Staff
𝄜	Six-String Fretboard
𝄝	Four-String Fretboard
𝄞	G Clef
𝄟	G Clef Ottava Alta
𝄠	G Clef Ottava Bassa
𝄡	C Clef
𝄢	F Clef
𝄣	F Clef Ottava Alta
𝄤	F Clef Ottava Bassa
𝄥	Drum Clef-1
𝄦	Drum Clef-2
𝄪	Double Sharp
𝄫	Double Flat
𝄬	Flat Up
𝄭	Flat Down
𝄮	Natural Up
𝄯	Natural Down
𝄰	Sharp Up
𝄱	Sharp Down
𝄲	Quarter Tone Sharp
𝄳	Quarter Tone Flat
𝄴	Common Time
𝄵	Cut Time
𝄶	Ottava Alta
𝄷	Ottava Bassa
𝄸	Quindicesima Alta
𝄹	Quindicesima Bassa
𝄺	Multi Rest
𝄻	Whole Rest
𝄼	Half Rest
𝄽	Quarter Rest
𝄾	Eighth Rest
𝄿	Sixteenth Rest
𝅀	Thirty-Second Rest
𝅁	Sixty-Fourth Rest
𝅂	One Hundred Twenty-Eighth Rest
𝅃	X Notehead
𝅄	Plus Notehead
𝅅	Circle X Notehead
𝅆	Square Notehead White
𝅇	Square Notehead Black
𝅈	Triangle Notehead Up White
𝅉	Triangle Notehead Up Black
𝅊	Triangle Notehead Left White
𝅋	Triangle Notehead Left Black
𝅌	Triangle Notehead Right White
𝅍	Triangle Notehead Right Black
𝅎	Triangle Notehead Down White
𝅏	Triangle Notehead Down Black
𝅐	Triangle Notehead Up Right White
𝅑	Triangle Notehead Up Right Black
𝅒	Moon Notehead White
𝅓	Moon Notehead Black
𝅔	Triangle-Round Notehead Down White
𝅕	Triangle-Round Notehead Down Black
𝅖	Parenthesis Notehead
𝅗	Void Notehead
𝅘	Notehead Black
𝅙	Null Notehead
𝅚	Cluster Notehead White
𝅛	Cluster Notehead Black
𝅜	Breve
𝅝	Whole Note
𝅗𝅥	Half Note
𝅘𝅥	Quarter Note
𝅘𝅥𝅮	Eighth Note
𝅘𝅥𝅯	Sixteenth Note
𝅘𝅥𝅰	Thirty-Second Note
𝅘𝅥𝅱	Sixty-Fourth Note
𝅘𝅥𝅲	One Hundred Twenty-Eighth Note
𝅥	Combining Stem
𝅦	Combining Sprechgesang Stem
𝅧	Combining Tremolo-1
𝅨	Combining Tremolo-2
𝅩	Combining Tremolo-3
𝅪	Fingered Tremolo-1
𝅫	Fingered Tremolo-2
𝅬	Fingered Tremolo-3
𝅭	Combining Augmentation Dot
𝅮	Combining Flag-1
𝅯	Combining Flag-2
𝅰	Combining Flag-3
𝅱	Combining Flag-4
𝅲	Combining Flag-5
𝅳	Begin Beam
𝅴	End Beam
𝅵	Begin Tie
𝅶	End Tie
𝅷	Begin Slur
𝅸	End Slur
𝅹	Begin Phrase
𝅺	End Phrase
𝅻	Combining Accent
𝅼	Combining Staccato
𝅽	Combining Tenuto
𝅾	Combining Staccatissimo
𝅿	Combining Marcato
𝆀	Combining Marcato-Staccato
𝆁	Combining Accent-Staccato
𝆂	Combining Loure
𝆃	Arpeggiato Up
𝆄	Arpeggiato Down
𝆅	Combining Doit
𝆆	Combining Rip
𝆇	Combining Flip
𝆈	Combining Smear
𝆉	Combining Bend
𝆊	Combining Double Tongue
𝆋	Combining Triple Tongue
𝆌	Rinforzando
𝆍	Subito
𝆎	Z
𝆏	Piano
𝆐	Mezzo
𝆑	Forte
𝆒	Crescendo
𝆓	Decrescendo
𝆔	Grace Note Slash
𝆕	Grace Note No Slash
𝆖	Tr
𝆗	Turn
𝆘	Inverted Turn
𝆙	Turn Slash
𝆚	Turn Up
𝆛	Ornament Stroke-1
𝆜	Ornament Stroke-2
𝆝	Ornament Stroke-3
𝆞	Ornament Stroke-4
𝆟	Ornament Stroke-5
𝆠	Ornament Stroke-6
𝆡	Ornament Stroke-7
𝆢	Ornament Stroke-8
𝆣	Ornament Stroke-9
𝆤	Ornament Stroke-10
𝆥	Ornament Stroke-11
𝆦	Hauptstimme
𝆧	Nebenstimme
𝆨	End Of Stimme
𝆩	Degree Slash
𝆪	Combining Down Bow
𝆫	Combining Up Bow
𝆬	Combining Harmonic
𝆭	Combining Snap Pizzicato
𝆮	Pedal Mark
𝆯	Pedal Up Mark
𝆰	Half Pedal Mark
𝆱	Glissando Up
𝆲	Glissando Down
𝆳	With Fingernails
𝆴	Damp
𝆵	Damp All
𝆶	Maxima
𝆷	Longa
𝆸	Brevis
𝆹	Semibrevis White
𝆺	Semibrevis Black
𝆹𝅥	Minima
𝆺𝅥	Minima Black
𝆹𝅥𝅮	Semiminima White
𝆺𝅥𝅮	Semiminima Black
𝆹𝅥𝅯	Fusa White
𝆺𝅥𝅯	Fusa Black
𝇁	Longa Perfecta Rest
𝇂	Longa Imperfecta Rest
𝇃	Brevis Rest
𝇄	Semibrevis Rest
𝇅	Minima Rest
𝇆	Semiminima Rest
𝇇	Tempus Perfectum Cum Prolatione Perfecta
𝇈	Tempus Perfectum Cum Prolatione Imperfecta
𝇉	Tempus Perfectum Cum Prolatione Perfecta Diminution-1
𝇊	Tempus Imperfectum Cum Prolatione Perfecta
𝇋	Tempus Imperfectum Cum Prolatione Imperfecta
𝇌	Tempus Imperfectum Cum Prolatione Imperfecta Diminution-1
𝇍	Tempus Imperfectum Cum Prolatione Imperfecta Diminution-2
𝇎	Tempus Imperfectum Cum Prolatione Imperfecta Diminution-3
𝇏	Croix
𝇐	Gregorian C Clef
𝇑	Gregorian F Clef
𝇒	Square B
𝇓	Virga
𝇔	Podatus
𝇕	Clivis
𝇖	Scandicus
𝇗	Climacus
𝇘	Torculus
𝇙	Porrectus
𝇚	Porrectus Flexus
𝇛	Scandicus Flexus
𝇜	Torculus Resupinus
𝇝	Pes Subpunctis

I cannot see them in my computer. What do I have to do to see them ??.

Might be interesting to stress here that staff notation (and some others such as alphabetic notation) notates the pitches (more or less) directly, while tablatures (and others) indicates gestures that produce the pitches; tablatures, therefore, usually are specific to a specified type of instrument.

I think it does already; what more do you want? Add what you think it needs. -- Merphant

In a similar fashion, the treble clef points to a G and the bass clef points to an F. I added that back in, because I couldn't see why it was wrong or inappropriate, but please feel free to discuss. Nevilley 09:13 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

To Do, summarized from comments in the article.

Say more about elements of the staff
Describe the notation systems of ancient Greece and ancient Rome

-- Merphant 04:49 Apr 1, 2003 (UTC)

Seeing Wikipedia supports Tex for mathematical formulae, wouldn't it be good one day for it to support the Tex extensions for musical notation? I suppose the first problem would be to decide which one of the various extensions to support... --PS4FA

Brion suggested that very thing some months ago, but I don't think there was a lot of interest in it. There's a page on meta about it: m:Music markup. If enough people show an interest in it, it'll probably get implemented eventually. Personally, I'm happy enough cobbling files together with Sibelius (which is in any case probably the only way to render more complex notation), but it's an interesting idea. --Camembert

I'm very interested in seeing music markup on Wikipedia. I doubt that there is anything that Sibelius can do that Lilypond can't (and Lilypond's engraving gives results that look much better, IMO). - Tobin Richard

We can use note images, initially. See Wikipedia:Christmas 2004 (sheet music).

The link to the shaped note article should be much less prominent. It really belongs near the bottom of the article. Similarly, to say that the shaped note system is common in the U.S. is a considerable exaggeration. It was never more than regionally common, and was never ubiquitous in those regions where it has been used. And if anything it has been declining over time, with the standard system of notation being taught in schools and most people having greater access to musical instruments (for which shaped notes are all but worthless).

UninvitedCompany 22:10, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in mentioning it early on - the reason I moved it up is because, although the page has the inclusive title "musical notation", it deals virtually exclusively with the "normal" European classical notation, and I think it's a good idea to mention early on that there are other ways of notating music, and to link to articles on them. But if you want to move it elsewhere, do feel free, I'm not in love with it or anything (and it's not something I'm very knowledgable about, I'm sure you know more about it than I). --Camembert

I'd like to know people's opinions of changing this page title to 'Western musical notation'. Section 2.10 talks about the "standard 12 tone scale", but arguably more people in the world (populations of Asia + Middle East + parts of Africa) would consider the 12 tone scale to be non standard.

Another reason I'd like to nominate this is because of consistency. Alphabet doesn't just give the Western use of the term, but a generic definition. Later on, it gives a link to the Roman alphabet, and I think musical notation should follow suit. -- Michael2

I'd be in favour of such a move in principle, but it has the same thing against it as moving classical music to western classical music would have; namely, most people link to musical notation expecting a discussion of "western" notation, and so if we move that info off to another page, you make readers click on an extra link to get to the info they want. Whether that's a good enough reason not to move the page or not, I don't know, but it's something to bear in mind.

What I do think we should do it mention other notational systems higher up in the page - not to discuss them in great detail, of course, but just to make the reader aware that there are a wide range of notational systems in use. At one time, the article was like this - I'm not sure when or why it changed. --Camembert

Solfa

I like the new additions on sol fa but there's a bit I am finding it difficult to understand:

Solfege is a way of assigning syllables to names of the musical scale. In order, they are: Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Ti, and Do (for the octave). Other variations are: Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si, Do, and Fa, Sol, La, Fa, Sol, La, Mi, Fa.

How can that last possibly work when it has so much repetition? I have never heard of it, and I can't see how it fits into the normal use of solfa. Do enlighten me please. Nevilley 08:52, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The first variation (Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Si, Do), I believe, was common until John Curwen changed it so each syllable would start with a different letter. If I'm not mistaken, it is still common in non-English speaking countries. The second variation (Fa, Sol, La, Fa, Sol, La, Mi, Fa) uses four syllables and repeats three of them. This system always has a half step before the syllable "fa". It was once common in England, and, via England, in early America. It has survived in American shape note books such as the Sacred Harp and Southern Harmony. Check the Sacred Harp article and the Shape note article; these may answer some of your questions. - Rlvaughn 22:02, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Great, thanks very much for all that. You live and learn! :) Nevilley 23:29, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Nevilley, here are a couple of links to information by Dr. Warren Steel of the University of Mississippi that states it better than I can:

Utterly brilliant, and fascinating! Thanks again. Nevilley 09:45, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

“Solfege” is the French cognate of the Italian “solfeggio”. My undergraduate ear training courses used the latter term. The problem with “solfege” is that the French think “re” is a key (the key of D), and thus “solfege” implies (and creates a furtive bias in favor of) fixed-do systems.

I find that "solfege" is used interchangeably for both. I'm Canadian, so this may be a regional dialect, but I've never actually heard anyone say "solfeggio" in my education, though "moveable or fixed do" was often spoken of to distinguish between the two systems. In the French part of Canada, the fixed-do is more prominent, so the difference comes up a lot here, but I've never heard "solfeggio" used. - Rainwarrior 21:53, 13 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If you've never heard "solfeggio", it's either because you're Canadian or because you're relatively young (the victim of historical revisionism). "Solfeggio" was not so very long ago far more common in the United States than "Solfege", and this is clearly because "fixed-do" systems were relatively unheard of in the United States until fairly recently. If your names for keys are the solmization syllables, you're pretty much stuck with "fixed-do", but otherwise it is indefensible as an ear-training method. As an undergraduate, I'd never heard of "solfege" and neither had I heard of "fixed-do". There was no need to speak of "fixed-do" because it made no sense for non-French musicians, and it was not suggested by the term "solfeggio" the way that it is inevitably suggested by the term "solfege". It can be no coincidence that "fixed-do" systems and the term "solfege" were introduced here simultaneously.

It is true that I am not that old, but even as a very young child I remember always "solfege". Are you arguing that you would like the article changed in some way? You seem to have said above that today, in the US, "solfege" is now more commonly said than "solfeggio". If this is the case, I would argue that the more common term should be the one used for the article. (I don't see why the oldest term should have precedence over the most common term.) Anyhow, if you wish to argue the merits of fixed versus moveable Do (which doesn't have much relevance to the article), I wholeheartedly agree that moveable is superior, though I must say that the French musicians I know do not seem to suffer any deficiency due to their fixed-do training. Rainwarrior 03:59, 20 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation

Randywombat, I don't have any disagreement with you on this. You may not disagree with me either, though your note implies I did not make myself clear. The statement that the "shape note system is found in church hymnals, sheet music, and song books, especially in the American south" was meant to show where the music is found (church hymnals, sheet music & singing convention type song books) - not how much of it was found there. I would only expect the rarest of appearances outside those uses. I removed some because I felt it would be taken to modify all three. Probably very few of what most people would consider hymnals are still printed in shape notes, though a number of books that southern churches use as hymnals are available in such. I rarely buy sheet music, but most "southern gospel" songs used to available in shape notes. As for singing convention type song books (I don't know a better term for them), most of them are in shape notes. The Sacred Harp (a four-note shape note book) has been gaining interest, and is now used in the West, Midwest, and Northeast, and is even becoming somewhat popular in England. But that is somewhat of an anomaly, I suppose. - Rlvaughn 22:02, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Right you are - thanks for the information! You're right, I think we were at cross purposes. I was just thinking of the newcomer who reads the sentence ""shape note system is found in church hymnals, sheet music, and song books, especially in the American south" and thinks that church hymnals, sheet music and song books are mostly written in shape note notation, which I don't think is true overall. But I'm British, and I'm still learning about this shape note thing; perhaps it's more widespread than I thought. You're right, we don't disagree. (Maybe I should have posted talk before I made the edit!) Toby W 09:36, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I just wanted you to know why I had done that. When I did the edit it seemed clear and to say what I was attempting to say. But after seeing your edit with the word "some" reinserted it serves both purposes. - Rlvaughn 12:00, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Bb Horn Clef

I've never heard of its existence let alone seen it in print. Can anyone show me an example of it and explain it's use? Thanks. Ryan

I don't know that Bb horn notation can really be said to use a "Bb Horn Clef." Like clarinet music, most horn music is written a full step higher than it is played. Unlike octavation differences among instruments (like the guitar), a clef change alone cannot account for the whole step difference since both the key signature and any accidentals present must also change. Perhaps the reference should be removed from the article. I don't play the horn so I'm not going to presume to be expert enough to change it. UninvitedCompany 18:30, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you. The reference should be removed. I do play horn, by the way, that's why I was shocked to see it in the first place. And I think a distinction should be made when using the generic term of "horn" as referring to any wind instrument and "the" horn, commonly referred to erroneously in America as "French". In western classical music, "the" horn was written in all the keys, but today it is most often, if not always, written in F, meaning the printed notes are a perfect fifth higher than they sound. Treble clef is most common but the use of bass clef is frequently used. Is there a list of transposing instruments on wikipedia? It might be a good article to link to. Ryan

Isn't it the case that some old B flat (French) horn music is written not a whole tone higher than it sounds, but a ninth higher (ie, an extra octave higher)? I seem to recall that this used to be fairly common (even if it isn't any longer). If so (and I may be wrong) I think that may be what the article is referring to. Of course, an octave transposition doesn't make it a different clef, so the reference to a different clef should still be removed (or at least changed accordingly).

You're right that horn in B flat is written a ninth higher than sounding. But to clarify, one should use the complete term of "B flat Basso" as there are numerous scores which call for "Horn in B flat Alto" in which the music is written a whole step higher than sounding. There are also horns in E, E flat, D, D flat, C [basso], C alto, B (H in the German system of notation), B flat basso. That's the lowest the horn usually goes. Above the standard pitch fundamental of F, we find transpositions in F sharp, G, A flat, A, and Bb alto, C alto, D alto, E flat alto. The C, D, and E flat alto part are commonly found in the early symphonies of WA Mozart and Haydn.

My point being that the mention of transposing horn clefs is not only erroneous, but incomplete. I don't believe that the Music Notation article is an appropriate place to mention all the possibilities, so it's best to omit the B flat horn clef entirely. Ryan

You're right of course (and it's not in the article any longer). Just to put my mind at rest - is B flat alto more common than B flat basso, or is it the other way round? Nothing to do with the article, I just want to know if my memory is playing tricks on me or not (wouldn't be the first time...). --Camembert

I would say B flat basso is more common. Ryan

By the way, for transposing instruments, there is the cryptically titled transposing instrument ;) --Camembert

Ha, thanks for pointing that out. I did find it on my own. I was hoping for a more detailed list with graphics of musical notation showing which pitch is sounded when a particular note on an instrument is played. I'd be more than happy to create one if someone out there would be interested in helping me with the graphics end of it all. Ryan.

If you want graphics of notation, I'm happy to provide. Let me know what you need on my talk page if you like. --Camembert

Just out of interest - I've never heard of 'horn' being used to refer to any wind instrument. For me, it only refers to the (French) horn (plus baritone horn, tenor horn, etc in brass bands). Is the 'generic horn' an American thing? Toby W 18:58, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's a usage most commonly found, I think, in jazz. For example, Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker are commonly described as horn players, though the former played the trumpet and the latter the sax. --Camembert

Also the Flugel horn. In my experience, the individual in the jazz band referred to as the "horn player" arrives on stage in possession of some combination of trumpets in various keys and possibly one or more Flugel horns. "Horn" would not encompass any of the woodwind instruments, even in the United States. UninvitedCompany 21:19, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I have heard horn refer to woodwinds instruments. Mostly by my midwestern grandfather. Ryan

No, it is definitely used to refer to saxes too. It's an ignorance thing in a way, but quite sweet. It's not flutes but any of the wind instruments you might expect as standard in an otherwise typical pop/rock/some jazz/whatever band. It's what we used to call the "front line" instruments, i.e. not the rhythm section, of a dance-based band. Tpt, sax, tbn basically. Note that in a clever piece of marketing the new Associated Board jazz exams for wind instruments are the "Jazz Horns" syllabus. See for example [1] Nevilley 01:11, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Hm, and it looks like a Blue Note record sleeve too. Where will it all end... --Camembert

Right - interesting - thanks! Toby W 09:43, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Even instruments like flutes can be included under the label horns in certain contexts—school marching bands, for instance. —Caesura ^(t) 00:40, 8 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion for Christmas 2004

I suggest collaborate with Wikimedia Christmas 2004, expanding the musical sheets of Christmas carols. This is a very important project for free wiki music.

Embedding lilypond...

I think it would be a Good Thing to embed lilypond musical notation into wikimedia, as LaTex is. So it would be possible to typeset music directly into wikimedia, listen to it and view its lilypond source.

See meta:Music markup. I asked one of the devs (Brion, who is a patient soul) about it a few weeks ago, and got the reply that it would be implemented sometime in the future, after more important things got taken care of (that is, "real soon now"). So yes, everyone thinks it would be a Good Thing; it's just a matter of developer time. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

we need a category for musical notation and computer software or computer formats

or sth like it. is there anywhere sth like it? so Lilypond MusicXML GUIDO and other format can link to that category.

see here for more info (should be mentioned as an external link for sure) A lot of info on Music notation information site --Nkour 18:19, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Try Category:Musical software, if you've not yet found it by now. Mindspillage (spill yours?) 04:55, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Letter Notation Issues

Could someone please:
1. List the letters in the letter notation (e.g. C, D, E... , Cis etc.) - actually they appear in the text without explanation, or am I wrong?
2. Write about the difference between the "English" and the "German" notations (B, H vs. ?, B; are there any other differences?).

--84.163.72.239 09:02, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Expansion needed: There is a convention whereby upper case letters are used below middle C and lower case letters above, and the letters are doubled (CC, aaa) to indicate which octave one is in. Alternatively, letters followed by primes (C', a'') are used the same way. The discussion of letter notation is not complete without this. Someone ought to add it. I can't because I don't remember exactly how it works and I can't look it up in Wikipedia. Jm546 16:15:02, 2005-09-10 (UTC)

There are at least three such systems in use, two of which just use numbers (c1, c2, c3, etc.) to indicate the various octaves, and one similar to what you describe. But this belongs in Note (music). —Wahoofive (talk) 23:14, 10 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The letter notation you describe is called Abc notation. The Abc notation article strangely does not have an illustration or map showing the relationship between notes on a staff and the letters though. Abc notation includes note lengths, time signature, accidentals, etc, and is a viable musical notation. A related note notation is Scientific pitch notation, which uses numbers instead of doubling letters. I think both notations should be linked to Musical Notation, since it is natural to attempt to find them here. I'd make the edit, but I don't know enough about wikipedia to feel confident in doing so...

--Eraticus 22:04, 24 September 2005 (UTC)--[reply]

Integer notation

Integer notation as described here really isn't a kind of notation, but rather a kind of musical analysis. Theorists who use such notation (such as Allen Forte) still use conventional music notation to indicate specific pitches and rhythms. So this whole section belongs on some other page. --Wahoofive 06:36, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The same would then go for letter notation. Hyacinth 03:42, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Solfege edit

I removed the following text from the Solfege section, added by User:198.234.216.213:

The solfege syllables are derived from the Latin words Dominus, Regina Cæli, Microcosmos, Fatus, Sol, Voie Lacte, and Sidereal

This information is in conflict with the Ut queant laxis article, and anyway belongs there (or on Solfege), not in this article. —Wahoofive | Talk 17:14, 6 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You are correct. As far as I know the derivation of the solfege syllables from Ut queant laxis has never been in dispute. Or let me put it this way: if there is an alternate theory, it needs a source. Antandrus 04:21, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bach Fugue Musical Example

Is it entirely helpful to have this version of the musical example? I agree that most of us are familiar with the right-hand part being written in the treble (G) clef. But Bach himself wrote the piece notating the upper stave in a soprano c-clef. Surely, in an article specifically about the history, development and use of staves/staffs and clefs, isn't it counter-productive to show a modern "ersatz" version, rather than the clefs Bach used himself (which are different)? Or is this just being overly pedantic?

Don't forget to sign your posts with ~~~~, Dr Woland. I agree with you, and really the section on staff notation should be split into a separate article. I'll put it on my to-do list. We should have an example, however, although it could be a single-staff one —Wahoofive (talk) 16:00, 4 May 2005 (UTC)[reply]

British names for the duration symbols

I learned the names as follows: breve, semibreve, minim, crotchet, quaver, semiquaver, demisemiquaver, hemidemisemiquaver, semihemidemisemiquaver, demisemihemidemisemiquaver, hemidemisemihemidemisemiquaver, semihemidemisemihemidemisemiquaver, etc. repeating as much of the "hemidemisemi" as is required. This is at least consistent with "Terminorum Musicae Index Septem Linguis Redactus", Baerenreiter 1978, ISBN 3-7618-0553-5, which translates a 1/128th-note (five flags) as semihemidemisemiquaver. I've never heard of a quasihemidemisemiquaver so think this needs changing.

all the best,

James Ingram (British copyist)

There are two problems with "quasi": 1) It doesn't mean "half" precisely. 2) It doesn't rhyme with "semi". On the hand, since there are, as far as I know, no other rhyming synonyms for "semi" besides "demi" and "hemi", in my opinion it is best that a British musician never attempt to play a note faster than a sixty-fourth.

Computer representation

Someone recently added [2] abc notation to this article, but it seems to me we should have a whole section on computer representation of music (MusicTEX, MIDI, etc., not to mention conventional notation programs such as Finale and Sibelius). Is there an article which covers this? I hope someone more knowledgable than I can write this section. —Wahoofive (talk) 01:50, 27 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Content to be removed

I'd like to suggest that the article be rolled back to the version before the two posts by John Keller, as they are blatent cheap plugs... The submited graphic is named "ES plug.jpg". I wouldn't mind a mention of the idea and a link to its own article, but it seems a bit pushy the way it is now.

NickSentowski 20:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Done. —Wahoofive (talk) 21:59, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What would be an acceptable way of illustrating some of the many alternative notations that use the principle of a chromatic staff? They are mostly quite new, and exist in self-published form, like my own invention, Express Staff. However they do point out an important new direction in thinking that counters the widely held view that music and its traditional notated form are one. I am new to this site and do not want to offend anyone, but would naturally like my notation to be shown if possible. John Keller 13:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for asking. The section on this page describing "Alternative Music Notations that Use Chromatic Staves" seems fine to me. This is a summary article. If a more detailed article is warranted, it can have a cross-reference, as Figured Bass, Parsons Code, Tablature, and others have. (I'm surprised we don't have a summary for Neumes, however). That said, Wikipedians are generally suspicious of people who write about themselves or their own inventions (see Wikipedia:Vanity). You'll get a better reception if you write about the topic in general, rather than your own contributions to the field, and even then only if you can back up your assertions with sources which the community agree are independent. If you have more questions, you can ask here or on my talk page —Wahoofive (talk) 20:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In these talk pages, how do I start a new discussion topic? I would like to ask what is meant in the "Effects" subsection - doesnt seem to make sense. I would also suggest changing the word "scope" in Elements of standard notation to "range", and add something about accidentals. In the historical development of music notation I could also write about how the letter A came to be assigned to the pitch it has, with reference to the medieval thesis Dialogus de Musica, formerly attributed to Odo of Cluny.John Keller 00:23, 8 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently you've figured out the answer to the first question, probably by clicking on the + sign at the top of the page. Conversely, you can manually add a new section header like this:

==A new topic==

and it will produce the same effect.

The historical details you mention might be more appropriately added to more specific pages, such as Accidental or Note. This is just a summary page. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:31, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just wondering, John Keller, if you're familiar at all with Arnold Schoenberg's own experimental notation system example ? It's quite similar to your own. He describes it in an essay that you can find in his book, "Style and Idea". (I'd give you a page number, but I don't have the book on hand at the moment.) It might be worth mentioning on the notation page here as well. Rainwarrior 02:15, 19 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A follow up, now that I've recovered my book. It is: Schoenberg, Arnold. Style and Idea (ed. Leo Stein) Belmont 1975. pp. 354-362, the title of the chapter is "A New Twelve-Tone Notation, 1924". Rainwarrior 13:04, 30 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Effects

quote: "Musicological methods tend to foreground those musical parameters which can be easily notated...they tend to neglect or have difficulty with parameters which are not easily notated", such as Fred Lerdahl. "Notation-centric training induces particular forms of listening, and these then tend to be applied to all sorts of music, appropriately or not."

This syntax doesnt make sense? - John Keller 01:27, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's pretty dense. I think I see what that section is trying to say, though: people who learn music primarily via notation more often have difficulty with the intuitive, non-notated aspects of music. This strikes me as somewhat tautological (i.e. whatever you study is what you know best), but comparable arguments have made a connection between widespread literacy and the lack of ability for bards to memorize thousands of lines of poetry. —Wahoofive (talk) 05:44, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I figured it out! (Noticed "Edit this page", not the +)

I understand and agree with the idea; its just that the sentence doesnt make sense to me. It seems that there is something missing. EG, perhaps: "Musicological methods tend to foreground those musical parameters which can be easily notated...they tend to neglect or have difficulty with parameters which are not easily notated", such as tone quality or agogic (timing-related) expression. According to Fred Lerdahl, "notation-centric training induces particular forms of listening, and these then tend to be applied to all sorts of music, appropriately or not."

The way it presently reads, is that "Fred Lerdahl" is a parameter which is not easily notated! Or am I missing something? _ John Keller 07:07, 9 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You're absolutely right. I suggest replacing the first half of the quotation with some home-grown copy, incorporating your suggested improvement. —Wahoofive (talk) 00:55, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also: "foreground" is a noun, not a verb.

Development of music notation

Does anyone else think that this section should precede the "Standard notation described" one? It looks out of place to me, I wonder if placing it right after "Origins" would work better. Merging those sections also seems like a good idea to me. What do you think? Jashiin 17:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I have a more radical proposal. Everything that's part of "standard notation" (including its history) should be moved to a separate page, with just a summary paragraph on this page, the same as Figured bass and Klavar notation and so on. It's a systemic bias thing; this page should give a general world overview of notation, and leave the details to a specialized page. Everything that's now in section 2 (except for "effects", which apply to any notation system) would go on that new page. What's now section 3 would be renamed "Types of music notation" or something like that and the summary included as part of that. We probably could use some subsections within that, for example notations specialized for one type of instrument. —Wahoofive (talk) 17:35, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm with you on all these. I also suggest creating a category (Category:Music notation, Category:Musical notation, or something like that) for all notation pages. I found it really weird that neither modal nor mensural notation were mentioned here before my edit, and a category I think would make things a little easier. Jashiin 18:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wahoofive, I like your proposal. We may start writing the new page for standard/modern/western musical notation, using material from this page and from de:Notation (Musik), which looks neat and has a better illustration for the basic elements in the notation. Notice that Japanese Wikipedia already has separate pages: ja:記譜法 for musical notations in general and ja:五線譜 for the standard notation. That is the way to go. -- Felix Wan 00:40, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Category:Musical notation. The mensural notation article was created very recently. What's a good title for the new article? How about Western musical notation? (of course, weird avant-garde notations are Western, too, and so are figured bass and Braille for that matter.) Better ideas? Standard musical notation is really asking for it. —Wahoofive (talk) 00:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's call it Standard musical notation (20600 Google hits[3], "standard music notation" has 42200 [4]). "Western" and "modern" are not so popular and may cause misunderstandings. -- Felix Wan 01:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Time signature font?

Does anybody know what "font" time signatures are written in? I mean for your standard music notation. They all seem to be in a consistant font, but I dont know what that is. Can somebody help me? Thanks a lot.--156.34.232.19 17:12, 2 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to Finale 2006, for classical music, the font is called "Maestro", and for jazz it is called "Jazz" DA723 04:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Those are just font files, and proprietary to Finale. I think he more likely is asking about the kinds of Typefaces used in music notation. This actually varies quite widely, however, from publisher to publisher. Some contemporary european scores, for instance, are using thin Sans-Serif characters for their time signatures. Most older publications have a "Modern" type Serif font with some rounded serifs, like Bodoni, for time signatures. - Rainwarrior 06:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Brush Sweep Notation

Can somebody supply an accurate brush sweep notation image?

Here is the description again: "Brush sweep: horizontal line (replacing note head) in E snare space with slur to show brush is not lifted."

1) So the basic brush sweep should be depicted with a short horizontal (not diagonal) line, that is, parallel to the lines of the staff it falls between. The note stem will be perpendicular to this short horizontal line and start in the middle of it to make a sort of uppercase "T"--or an inverted uppercase "T" depending which way the stem is going. (Needless to say--I hope--, there should be no serifs on the "T".)

2) The slur is not used unless there are multiple strokes (or sweeping shapes across the drumhead) that are connected-- connected in that the brush doesn't leave the snare head. If the brush does leave the snare head, which, of course, is another thing the drummer might want to do (or be ordered to do by the composer), then the sweep notes are not slurred. In other words, the basic notation that should be depicted should omit the slur; the slur is optional, depending whether the sweeps are to be connected or not. Or we could show it both ways, with slur and without. Note that these are slurs, not ties. In other words, if there are three or more sweep strokes that are to be connected there should be only one curve above all of them, not two or more curves.

The problems with using virgules (diagonal lines) instead of "T" 's for sweeps is that 1) virgules are currently widely used to show something completely different; 2) virgules don't intuitively suggest a sweep the way I think "T" 's do.

Thank you.

In my own experience, I've never seen that notation. The best way (in my opinion) that I've seen for notating brushes was to write "Brushes" at the outset and use stacatto marks for strokes and no accent or tenuto marks for the sweep, leaving a footnote of explanation at the bottom of the page. But, as I'm sure you know, percussion notation varies really wildly between scores. If a picture of this particular alternative is important to you, why not make one yourself? You could save one of the existing drum notation pictures and edit it with microsoft paint, or whatever program you've got handy. - Rainwarrior 18:23, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, stacatto marks should be reserved for stacatto, which would imply choking here. Tenuto marks in drum notation ordinarily imply mild dynamic accents. Dynamic accents are the lifeblood of the sweep.

symbols used in modern musical notation

The image showing the musical notes and rests and their durations does not appear to have the same numbering system as the subsequent explanations. The semibreve is the first note on the stave in the image, and it is marked as 1. In the text below, 1 corresponds to the crotchet explanation!! Please could someone verify this, and make changes to the image if necessary..I am horribly computer illiterate and would rather not accidently erase the entire article! Thanks. 213.22.64.246 11:14, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is true. Originally, I think it was written with "beats in 4/4" in mind. Really, it doesn't matter what number we start with as long as the relationships are consistent, but it's probably good to have it correspond to the preceding example, so I've made the suggested change. - Rainwarrior 18:27, 6 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is still a very large problem here. This section strongly suggests that a whole rest necessarily lasts twice as long as a half rest, and that simply and clearly is not true. A whole rest lasts as long as the measure--always. Thus a whole rest in 3/4 last one and one-half times as long as a half note. A whole rest in 2/4 lasts just as long as a half rest.

Fred Lerdahl quote

In the "Effects" section, there is a mistake that makes it rather amusing. I'm not sure what it should read, so I won't fix it.Rigadoun 22:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its less funny now, but it never was a Lerdahl quote. Hyacinth 01:39, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's better, but it would be even better if it were attributed to either Tagg or Middleton. Are all three paragraphs from the same source? Rigadoun 15:19, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Musical notation in ethnomusicology

I had added this section and made it a stub section. Somebody has removed the stub tag. I did not put the section stub tag there by mistake, I meant it. IMHO, details on such notation systems should be added here (or a link to a separate article), i.e. the section should be expanded. The stub section tag means just that. If somebody is not interested in a section, O.K., but that does not mean that the section should not be expanded. The Article is missing a NPOV and one of the things missing is information on such notations. Nannus 21:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]