Talk:Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam/Archive 10

List of Archived Talk Pages
Archive of discussion prior to June 1, 2006 Archive of discussion from June 1-July 1, 2006 Archive of discussion from July 2-August 2, 2006

Changes to New Intro - July 29th Onward

Discuss changes still left to be addressed on the new intro here, for example ethnic cleansing.

For my part I find several sources that support the claim that the LTTE no longer carries out any ethnic cleansing type activities for example the same link I used above [1] also had this to say:

:Recently the leader of the Tamil Tigers, Vellupillai Prabhakaran, accepted that grievous harm had been done to the Muslims, and invited them to come back. (note this is an article from Oct 2002).

At the same time I am not sure the GoSL's current actions would also qualify as ethnic cleansing either, sure aerial bombardment of Tamil civilian areas is causing mass displacement but can we characterise that as cleansing? --Realstarslayer 15:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it makes sense to talk about both ethnic cleansing and genocide. Genocide is when you are trying to destroy an ethnic group, like the Nazis did to the Jews. Ethnic cleansing is when you don't want to destroy the group but want to force them to leave, like the Serbs did to Kosovo. How can it be both ethnic cleansing and genocide? I think we should only use one term, otherwise it removes credibility and makes it look just like ranting and stupid groundless accusations. I don't think any senior LTTE leader has recently said the Sri Lanak government is committing ethnic cleansing, and in Tamil circles also we usually only talk about what has happened as genocide, not as ethnic cleansing so I think that is the correct thing to say when we talk about what we accuse the GoSL of doing. Ethnic cleansing would be if they were trying to force everyone from Jaffna and everywhere else to leave Sri Lanka which is the wrong term. To the Sinhalese people here - please, I am not saying we should say the GoSL committed genocide, only that we should say that the LTTE is accusing them of genocide. --Ponnampalam 17:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

::As you say I don't think there is much evidence for ethnic cleansing today from either party. However the past has shown that both ethnic cleansing and genocide can be practiced at the same time, of course no where near the scale of Nazi Germany or the Serbians, but localised instances of both have been perpetrated by the GoSL and ethnic cleansing by the LTTE. So perhaps change the line as follows:

:::The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. Accusations of attempted ethnic cleansing have also been traded by both parties in the past.

::--Realstarslayer 18:23, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I like the statement you have proposed. I think it is the most compact,yet accurate assessment of the two views (Government and Tamil Nationalist forces). Johnathan1156 18:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok I have added that change and we'll see how it reads now, as always everyone please list any comments or changes here before implementing them in the article. Thanks.--Realstarslayer 18:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I also think it is fair. Congratulations, I think you have reached a wording which should satify everyone. --Ponnampalam 21:00, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of the intro does a very good job of maintaing NPOV. I have a few comments as follows and i have added in a few statements that we were discussing and whihc is needed to maintain NPOV.

Added in the number of countries whcih have banned LTTE

Rearranged second and third para to give a meaningful flow.

It would be POV to accuse anybody of anything but not mention if it is proved or not. UN or any country have not substantiated these accusations. I have added in that fact as well .

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. Accusations of attempted ethnic cleansing have also been traded by both parties in the past.

Factually the bans in India,Malaysia , US and UK predated any attempts at a negotiated solution so this is an LTTE claim which is factually incorrect. Even the EU ban was triggered by Kadirgamars murder and the attack on the naval convoy. I have included the facts here

The LTTE contends proscription by certain international actors as a tactic used to pressurize the movement to seek an unfavourable negotiated settlement, while the Sri Lankan government and some international players contend the LTTE intends to create an authoritarian mono-ethnic state.

Ruchiraw 00:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

: Ruchiraw, I'm not sure why you insist on making changes before fully discussing them, please give others a chance to even comment first. I have reverted to just before your changes. Now to address your changes:

::*The various pogroms carried out either with government complicity, e.g. 1983, or with the government looking the other way, e.g the pogroms of the 1950's can be considered genocidal acts by definition. ::: Genocide (noun) -the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

Look I fully hate the 1983 and 1958 riots.

But this is the province of the UN to level claims of genocide. It is a bit cheeky of the LTTE to take over the role of the UN, especially as its own human rights record is not spotlessly white. Genocide as defined on Wikipedia has a loose definition which can even be applied to the treatment of Mexican immigrants in the US. Do I ask you to delete the LTTE claims of genocide , NO no no. I ask you to include the fact that no neutral UN or government body has actually supported this claim. How , how , how can including this fact be POV. It is a fact and Wikipedia supports the use of facts to extablish NPOV. Ruchiraw 11:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

::*Factually all the bans you noted took place after rounds of peace talks, all but the Indian ban can be viewed as attempts by the various countries as efforts to push the LTTE towards more talks, in fact the EU stated this as their goal[2], so I am not sure where you have a problem with this statement? The timeline is below taken from BBC timeline and the section of this very page with dates of the various bans:

:::1985 - First attempt at peace talks between government and LTTE fails.

:::1992 - India Bans the LTTE

:::1994 - President Kumaratunga comes to power pledging to end war. Peace talks opened with LTTE.

:::1997 US bans LTTE.

::: 2002 February - Government and Tamil Tiger rebels sign a permanent ceasefire agreement, paving the way for talks to end the long-running conflict. The peace initiative is sponsored by Norway.

::: 2006 EU Bans LTTE

:--Realstarslayer 01:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Show me one statement by the US , UK and Malaysia governments that they have banned the LTTE force it to peace table. They do not care 2 hoots about the LTTE or the people of Sri Lanka. They ban the LTTE at the same time as they banned dozens of other groups known for terrorist acts after the Oklahoma and Omagh bombings.Even the EU ban was triggered by Kadirgamars murder and the attack on the naval convoy. Ruchiraw 11:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well according the Amb. Lunstead (American Amb. to Lanka), the ban was indeed to force LTTE to negotiate with the GOSL [3]. Here is the paragraph of interest in his farewell press conference (Johnathan1156 13:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)):

QUESTION: Last question: is there an effort to form a contact group within the context of banning the LTTE, including the U.K., India, and America. Is this contact group formed?

LUNSTEAD: The U.S. and others have discussed that one of the important things that can be done is to find ways to, since in the U.S. and many of the other countries for instance, it’s illegal to contribute to the LTTE, to find ways to cooperate to see that that type of ban is more effective. So we do discuss this with other countries and we continue to discuss it and look for effective ways to enforce the law. Again, as I would say, you tend to confuse means and goals. The goal is not to ban or not ban the LTTE. The goal is not to get or not get money to the LTTE. The goal is for the LTTE to enter the political process, to negotiate with the government. And the result, if that happens, if they give up violence and do that, will be a different kind of relationship with outside actors. Organizations that are banned can be un-banned. The United States has removed organizations from the Foreign Terrorist List. In fact, that’s what our goal is – our goal is to get the LTTE off the list, not to put them on the list. Because if they came off the list it would mean that things were going well. That’s what we would like to see happen, is that for the LTTE to change its behavior to come off the list so we and others can engage, do development assistance in the conflict-affected areas of the Northeast which have been so deprived for so many years. That’s what we’d like to see happen.

Johnathan1156 13:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:::::Ruchiraw, the first paragraph of the link I gave you above clearly states the EU position on the ban, since you don't seem to have read it I will quote it here:

::::::The European Union listed Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers as a terrorist organization in a bid to push the separatist movement back to peace talks and avert a full resumption of the South Asian island's two-decade civil war.

:::::--Realstarslayer 16:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:Ruchiraw, the changes may have been discussed, however there is no consensus on their implementation and I do not believe they add to NPOV, in fact they tilt the intro the other way. So I for one do not agree to the changes (my reasons are noted above), so please refrain from making them before we reach a consensus and please do not start reverting them back into place as well.

:I am not going to revert it back until others have had a chance to discuss this further, I urge you not to add any more till we resolve this phase, otherwise as above we end up disucssing all different parts of the intro without sorting out the current issue first.

:I should clarify though, the intro only gives us what the LTTE claim, just as the intro also gives us what the GoSL and several other governments claim, i.e. the LTTE are terrorist, since this is also your POV you do not see that as a POV, however you repeatedly want to eliminate statements that are only listing the LTTE 'claims' and are clearly noted as such, since this does not fall in line with your POV. This is not helping to make a NPOV intro.--Realstarslayer 01:20, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Claims must be supported by facts. 1 Some governments claim LTTE is terrorist. Fact Some governments have banned LTTE as terrorist 2 LTTE claims Sri Lanka practises (as in STILL does so, not what happened in 1983) Genocide and ethnic cleansing. FACT IS there independent (UN, Amnesty, Any government)support to this claim , Yes or no.Ruchiraw 11:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Ruchiraw you are not helping the situation. You are repeteadly imposing your version of the intro on others as has been mentioned by other users. You are not allowing others to discuss your intro nor critique here and its imposed on the page. Thats just no right! You are consistently trying to impose your POV and calling it NPOV. Hence I reverting back the intro which has the agreement of atleast six people in this forum. Johnathan1156 02:12, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ruchiraw - "The international community has not accept the charges of genocide and state sponsored terrorism against the Sri Lankan government." There is an allegation agaisnt the Sri Lankan government, and there is nothing wrong with pointing out a fact. Supermod 06:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Johnathan1156, Even if this version has the support of 6 million people, if it POV, it will still be POV. I am not changing any version , I am adding facts (as recommended by Wikipedia) to show the true picture as opposed to claims. That is why for the seventh time , I suggest the use of mediators as in the dispute resolution procedure. Ruchiraw 11:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I changed the text so that it reads ..traditional Tamil regions in the North and East of Sri Lanka.. Just to make things perfectly clear.

:::: Fine by me, makes it clearer.

Also chnged GoSL to Sri Lankan government. (Pretty sure it may confuse people)

:::: Yeah I was thinking that should be changed too at least for intro so cool.

Changed the text to read "being the main body with whom the government must negotiate with to end the long-running conflict in Sri Lanka."

:::: Ok this one, maybe it was getting late for you =) but it doesn read quite well, too many 'with's so I just replaced it with 'in order' to end the...

Also can someone please clarify why it matters to include the words " is currently banned as a terrorist organisation in a number of countries, most of which have a minority Tamil population." I'm not sure of what use it is. --snowolfd4 08:08, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:::: Well not sure if it matters, but the point is that the major powers who have banned the LTTE did so partly to curtail their funding, and that was because of the large Tamil populations in their territories, US, EU, Canada, etc. Either way I am not too concerned if it stays or goes.--Realstarslayer 16:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Well I think it unnecessarily complicates the intro so I'm removing that bit. --snowolfD4 21:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

POV in current intro

This is quite POV.

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority.

Then we could have a sentence saying

The Sri Lankan government in turn accuses the LTTE of genocide, indiscriminate political assasinations, gun running, drug trafficking , organised crime , massacring settlers, etc:-

Do you see my point . If we have a litany of claims , instead of facts we could spend pages on claims, See foll. para from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Fairness_of_tone

Disagreements over whether something is approached the Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) way can usually be avoided through the practice of good research. Facts (as defined in the A simple formulation section above) are not Points Of View (POV, here used in the meaning of "opposite of NPOV") in and of themselves. A good way to help building a neutral point of view is to find a reputable source for the piece of information you want to add to Wikipedia, and then cite that source. This is an easy way to characterize a side of a debate without excluding that the debate has other sides. The trick is to find the best and most reputable sources you can. Try the library for good books and journal articles, and look for the most reliable online resources. A little bit of ground work can save a lot of time in trying to justify a point later.

Ruchiraw 14:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:As I replied on my talk page, I do not agree with your point, because the statement clearly says this is what the LTTE claims, and not whether this is fact, just as the statement just before that states what the GoSL claims, i.e. the LTTE are terrorists, however again this does not mean it is fact, just what each side claims. That is all you can do to maintain neutrality, state each side's claims in such a case where it is a clash of POVs. Since the Tamils being protected by the LTTE would feel they are freedom fighters and the GoSL are terrorists, and vice versa, so you cannot place one claim above the other but only state both claims. However it seems you are hellbent on passing judgement on the LTTE claim while supporting the GoSL claims in the intro no matter how much we try to accomodate your requests with a neutral entry; this is clearly POV. To quote the very section you urged us to read:

::Even when a topic is presented in terms of facts rather than opinion, an article can still radiate an implied stance through either selection of which facts to present, or more subtly their organization — for instance, refuting opposing views as one goes along makes them look a lot worse than collecting them in an opinions-of-opponents section.

Its certainly radiating a stance now. Suggest we get impartial mediation to see if it isnt Ruchiraw 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:::You feel so only because of your own POV, while most others see a neutral intro that lists both sides claims.--Realstarslayer 14:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:Just to clarify, since this is an article on the LTTE, the oponents in this case would be the GoSL, so to place a counter GoSL claim to every LTTE claim would go against the principle above, even though we have compromised and allowed both LTTE and GoSL views in the intro to exist equally.--Realstarslayer 15:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Did I ask you to source GoSL . Ruchiraw 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:::No you are asking to add even more GoSL claims, whether source quoted is the GoSL or not, what you are requesting are still the beliefs of the GoSL.--Realstarslayer 14:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not the present introduction has been agreed on by the several people who have been active on the Discussion page lately, it is not (in my opinion) an improvement on the version that was there a couple of weeks ago. It's wordy, awkward and repetitive, putting too much emphasis on the LTTE-vs.-Government slanging match and too little on the reality of the LTTE, and it omits some useful fragments of fact that used to be there. I'm getting out of here for a while (and I notice with interest that Ulflarsen, who has been the most diligent and reasonable editor of this page over the past months) and will see how things look when I have time to check in again. Credmond 15:01, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

:I am in agreement with you Credmond the intro was fine, but we have tried this latest exercise to try and reach a compromise, unfortunately it doesn't seem one is possible... --Realstarslayer 15:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Fine put back the previosu intro but then IT will have to be edited to make it NPOV. If you like we can have mediation on whether any of the proposed intro ARE NPOV. This whole issue comes about because whenever me or other users try to make teh intro NPOV, Trincoman reverts it. He is engaging in a disruptive pattern which does not let us get to the NPOVRuchiraw 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I was also supportive of the original intro that existed a couple of weeks ago. This new intro was conceived to get everyone on board, but this one user has been persistently holding out on all compromises statements. In fact what I am seeing is that user is changing his stance as well from time to time trying to force his POV. This user claims POV of the following statement The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority., yet this user had the following to say 2 days ago .

(Johnathan1156 16:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)):

I am not the only user who feels the previosu intro was POVRuchiraw 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

It violates POV and verifiability to accuse Sri Lanka of ethnic cleansing while ignoring the LTTE's own efforts at this, specially as this is an article on the LTTE . I don't see why we have to mention ethnic cleansing at all in the intro anyway but since some users want to keep it , lets make it NPOV at least.

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of ethnic cleansing, genocide and state-sponsored terrorism on its Tamil minority. The LTTE contends proscription by certain international actors has been a tactic used to pressurize the movement to seek an unfavourable negotiated settlement, while the Sri Lankan government and some international players contend the LTTE intends to create an authoritarian mono-ethnic state.Ruchiraw 12:59, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

So shall we say "contends LTTE practises ethnic cleasing in order to create an authoritarian mono-ethnic state".The rest sounds fine. Ruchiraw 13:00, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This user said everything else was fine then and now comes back and say its not. Johnathan1156 16:38, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Obviously you are getting confused. Read what I said again Ruchiraw 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

::: That is why I am getting exasperated with this whole thing, it seems even though Ruchiraw claims to be for an NPOV intro he is being disingenous and will not be satisfied until a GoSL tilted intro is implemented.--Realstarslayer 17:26, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

MEDIATE . There are mechanisms for dispute resolutionRuchiraw 01:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Evidence of Genocide, Crimes Against Humanity comitted by GOSL and listed by Impartial Observers

I am gathering evidence of claims of genocide by impartial observers to the conflict.

Here is an urgent appeal sent in 1998 by the well respected Asian Human Rights Comission together with the International Federation of Tamils that is titled Sri Lanka: Investigate Crimes Against Humanity: http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/1998/38/?print=yes

It is mentioned as part of this appeal that "the genocidal war against the people of Tamil Eelam be ended."

The International Federation of Tamils (LTTE front organisation) urges that in the meantime, the Sub Commission brings to an end the suffering of the Tamil people and the continuing genocide, by calling for the immediate withdrawal of the Sri Lanka armed forces from the occupied areas of Tamil Eelam.

Your statement that IFT is an LTTE front organization is without evidence. The CSIS report you refer to later in this page only refers to an organization "International Federation of Tamils UK". The IFT mentioned here is believed to be from Switzerland. Trincomanb 03:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

'Peace and Justice' are inseparably interlinked. The International Federation of Tamils urges the Sub Commission to recognise that the building blocks for peace are the building blocks of justice and justice demands

1. that the genocidal war against the people of Tamil Eelam be ended

2. that the Sri Lanka war criminals be brought to justice

3. that the Sri Lanka army withdraw from the Tamil homeland

4. that the Tamil Eelam struggle for freedom be recognised; and

You are being a bit careless here . This is an open forum on which anyone can post an urgent appeal. I am going to post a letter now accusing the LTTE of all crimes it committed. I am going to CC to to Kofi Annan , George Bush and Vladimir Putin as well .Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Your statement is false Trincomanb 02

50, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is an explanation of the Urgent Appeals desk:

AHRC has an Urgent Appeals desk that operates around the clock.

AHRC issues Urgent Appeals on behalf of persons or groups whose human rights have been violated, and for whom some immediate intervention by people around the world may lead to a remedy or official reaction.

This appeals network is connected to other networks, and it has tens of thousands of contacts throughout Asia and other countries.

This page includes all Urgent Appeals released by the AHRC since late 1997.

Here is a link to the document titled "Forced Disappearances in Sri Lanka Constitute a Crime Against Humanity" sent on behalf of the Asian Human Rights Comission.

http://www.disappearances.org/mainfile.php/articles_srilanka/9/

95 % of disappeared are Sinhalese in 1971 and 1989 uprisings. Hardly genocide against Tamils . No MENTION of genocide Ruchiraw 00:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is a link to the actual letter sent to Secretary General Kofi Annan.

http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2000/356/

Show me teh link where teh AHRC ITSELF accuses Sri Lanka of genocide . No mention of genocide .Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

These letters and documents indicate that impartial observers contend GOSL commits a 'genocidal war and crimes against humanity'

Further evidence of mass killings and human rights abuses:

by UN SPECIAL RAPPORTEUR ON EXTRAJUDICIAL, SUMMARY OR ARBITRARY EXECUTIONS http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/0/16F8C22F9FB1E05EC125715E0037176E?opendocument

Mass killings but no mention of genocide Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Evidence of an instance of anti-Tamil pogrom in Trinco (2006) by Human Rights Watch

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/04/25/slanka13262.htm

Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)Where is the para mentioning genocideRuchiraw 00:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Evidence of more than "16,305 past cases of disappearance by security forces" and gross human rights abuses from the US State Department human rights report on Sri Lanka (2005)

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61711.htm

95 % of disappeared are Sinhalese in 1971 and 1989 uprisings. Hardly genocide against Tamils Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

More to follow.

Johnathan1156 17:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

This must be an honest mistake on your part Johnathan1156 but 95% of these 16000 diassapeared are sinhalese. Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No doubt there has been a lot of terror against the tamil population in Sri Lanka, but when you check with Genocide I can not see that term is relevant to what happend and still goes on there. Ulflarsen 18:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

The Tamil Nationalist side, the Asian Human Rights Commission (respected,impartial human rights organization) and other individuals including members of the Sinhalese community [4] too believe genocide occured/is occuring. The Asian Human Rights Commission (based in Hong Kong) has repeateadly claimed the Sri Lankan government has comitted crimes against humanity. That is a key point to remember. Everyone is entitled to their opinion on anything but its a fact that not just that the Tamil nationalist side believes genocide occurred/is occuring.

The Asian Human Rights Commission (based in Hong Kong) has repeateadly claimed the Sri Lankan government has comitted crimes against humanity. Show me where the THE AHRC ITSELF says genocide. Surely if genocide is occurring DMK would not stay silent as it is Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Just for reference:

The definition of genocide is given as follows (taken from http://www.genocide.org.uk/genocide/):

Genocide (Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide New York, 9 December 1948)

The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines the term as: Any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Sri Lanka 12 Oct 1950 (Accession)

The Legal Definition of Genocide

The international legal definition of the crime of genocide is found in Articles II and III of the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide.

Article II describes two elements of the crime of genocide:

1)the mental element, meaning the “intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such”, and 2)the physical element which includes five acts described in sections a, b, c, d and e. A crime must include both elements to be called “genocide.”

Article III described five punishable forms of the crime of genocide: genocide; conspiracy, incitement, attempt and complicity.

Johnathan1156 19:00, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

To address user Ruchiraw's concern that only Tamil nationalist are screaming genocide, we should have the following paragraph to make everything clear.

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. An independent human rights organizations such as the Asian Human Rights Comission also maintains the Sri Lankan government has been committing a genocidal war against its Tamil minority [5] and crimes against humanity [6].

You are being a bit careless here . This is an forum on which anyone can post an urgent appeal. I am going to post a letter now accusing the LTTE of all crimes on earth and then I am going to cite it in WIkipedia. Just joking but now you see my point. NB: Anyone whose child was whipped can post an urgent appeal at this site . You can CC it to Kofi Annan , George Bush and Vladimir Putin as well . See http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/support.php?ua=UA-253-2006

 Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Did you read the web pages

1. The AHRC ITSELF nowhere said genocide.Its an appeal BY a different organisation So following is NOT factual . An independent human rights organizations such as the Asian Human Rights Comission also maintains the Sri Lankan government has been committing a genocidal war against its Tamil minorityRuchiraw 00:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

We can add a sentence. No independent organisation has actually accused the Sri Lankan government of genocide .Ruchiraw 01:22, 31 July 2006 (UTC) This is still factual . There ALL kinds of human rights abuses BUT NO MENTION OF GENOCIDE except in a letter posted on a form where ANYONE can post . Look at this urgent appeal http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/2006/1880/. Ruchiraw 00:39, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The only proper way to cite http://www.ahrchk.net/ua/mainfile.php/1998/38/?print=yes and to avoid Wikipedia sactions for putting attributing false statements to international organisations(which I would bring to the notice of AHRC and admins in Wikipedia ) is to modify following statement

An independent human rights organizations such as the Asian Human Rights Comission also maintains the Sri Lankan government has been committing a genocidal war against its Tamil minority [7] to be An independent human rights organizations such as the Asian Human Rights Comission has posted a letter in which the International Federation of Tamils (suspected LTTE front organisation) maintains the Sri Lankan government has been committing a genocidal war against its Tamil minority. Ruchiraw 01:08, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Trincomanb 22:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Its amazing Ruchiraw how you jump all over this AHRC issue, when just a day or so ago you were touting the so called UNHCR's list of LTTE terrorist acts, however it too turned out to be nothing more than the posting of a letter sent to the UNHCR by the GoSL.--Realstarslayer 01:21, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I did not make false claims saying the UN has drafted this indictment. I always explicitly mentioned it is AUTHORED by GoSL which everyone agres is a democratically constited governmentRuchiraw 01:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:::Keep. This page only contains information about terrorist attacks by LTTE. It aims to list all terorist incidents(numbering several hundreds) including minor ones. Already contains dozens of incidents not listed in Notable Attacks by the LTTE because they are not "Notable attacks" but minor terrorist ones. Source is the UNHCR website. Merging several hundred minor terrorist attacks into Notable Attacks by the LTTE would make that page not meaningful considering its title and purpose. It is not a spin off from Notable Attacks by the LTTE , it is factual and NPOV and is addresses a different topic, purpose and facts than Notable Attacks by the LTTERuchiraw 23:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

:::You clearly stated there in your initial post that the source was the UNHCR website, without any statement that you meant it was a GoSL letter posted on the UNHCR website, you were using that as a reason for claiming that page was NPOV since it was an 'independent' body listing the acusations, which as it turned out wasn't the case. Anyhow I don't want to drag other discussions into here, we already have quite a bit going on. BTW everyone would also agree that what the GoSL has to say on this conflict cannot be considered NPOV, anymore than press releases from the LTTEPS.--Realstarslayer 02:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Did I say the source is the UNHCR.Think over that one Ruchiraw

Then by your reasoning we can start by de;eting the following sections of the intro sinc eit sourced from LTTE

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), also known as the Tamil Tigers, is a military and political organization that has waged a violent secessionist campaign against the Sri Lankan Government since the 1970s in order to secure independence for the traditional Tamil regions in the North and East of Sri Lanka.

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority.

The LTTE contends proscription by certain international actors as a tactic used to pressurize the movement to seek an unfavourable negotiated settlement, while the Sri Lankan government and some international players contend the LTTE intends to create an authoritarian mono-ethnic state.

I wont even comment how much of teh body of teh article is sourced from the LTTE. Whats your suggestion Ruchiraw 02:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

::::: First as I said I don't want to start cross posting other discussions here, but your clear implication was that since it was the UNHCR the list of items was NPOV, only after several users myself included pointed out that it was not the UNHCR but a letter by the GoSL, did you switch tracks and start defending the fact that even a GoSL letter should be considered NPOV, which is laughable. So for someone who did that previously to be getting upset over a similar situation with this AHRC thing is just a little hypocritical.

:::::Now on to your second point; we are going around in circles here, the fact is that the LTTE does claim the items listed there, since this is a page about the LTTE it behooves us to list a factual description of their claims. The statement is not about whether those claims are true or not, only that the LTTE makes those claims.--Realstarslayer 02:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

(1) Do you have qualifiable evidence International Federation of Tamils is an LTTE front organization ? Otherwise you are comitting defamation which can lead to yourself getting sued! This should also be mentioned to that Wikipedia admins and the impacted organization. Are you claiming just because its got Tamil in its title, its an LTTE front organization ?

see Canada Security Intelligence Service report. http://www.csis-scrs.gc.ca/en/publications/commentary/com77.asp. Ruchiraw 02:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

After having read the CSIS report, it shows that the International Federation of Tamils UK is suspected to be a front organization. However the International Federation of Tamils refered to in the report I believe is based from Switzerland and is NOT mentioned in the CSIS report.

International Federation of Tamils (IFT)

18 Rues des Paquis, 1201 Geneva, Switzerland,

tel/fax +22 7320831, email: ift@bluewinch Trincomanb 02:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

See http://lankapage.wordpress.com/2006/02/20/

(2) Although, AHRC was not the original author of the letter, it indeed supported it, therefore it is signatory/part to it. It is usual with these appeals for a local organization to draft the letter and other organization lend their support to the appeal, but that can be further verified.

- :: Where does the AHRC say that it supports claims of genocide. This is not verifiable.I have emailed them to ask if they do so and I will post the reply here . Do tehy support EVERY word in evry letter. There is also difference between genocide and genocidal war. Ruchiraw 02:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is an explanation of the Urgent Appeals desk:

AHRC has an Urgent Appeals desk that operates around the clock.

AHRC issues Urgent Appeals on behalf of persons or groups whose human rights have been violated, and for whom some immediate intervention by people around the world may lead to a remedy or official reaction.

This appeals network is connected to other networks, and it has tens of thousands of contacts throughout Asia and other countries.

This page includes all Urgent Appeals released by the AHRC since late 1997.

In otherwords AHRC distributes these letters on behalf of its network of organizations. Trincomanb 02:18, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

(3) You are attempting make a mockery of the Urgen Appeals Process.. The Urgent Appeals is manned and verified by the AHRC staff. Again you can't just take some case of beating that occured against a child and make a joke of it. This is really crass.

See point aboveRuchiraw 02:11, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

(4) You claim 95 % of the disappearances were of Sinhalese, yet I don't see any citations of this. I am hereby challenging you to back up your claim. Otherwise its another made up number by you.

Where does it say how many were tamils.You cant claim genocide against tamils unless you know all the number of Tamils who disappeared. Search for JVP on wikipedia and you will see how many were SInhalese. 20 million disappeared in UUSR. Do I hear teh Chechens claiming all 20 million were Chechens and claiming genocide . Ruchiraw 02

07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Again you are evading the question. This second reference is about crimes against humanity. The following sentence has no reasoning behind it. "You cant claim genocide against tamils unless you know all the number of Tamils who disappeared". Claim of genocide and whether all those who dissappeared are Tamil or not is irrelevant. The definition of genocide covers for destruction of 'whole' or 'part' of a certain community. Trincomanb 02:25, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Claim anything you want . Just add the facts as well. FACT: No independent accusations of GENOCIDE Ruchiraw 02:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This statement is also false. Just as an example Australian Federal Member of Parliament Paul Zammit also condemned the genocide of Tamils in Lanka [8]. This is an example of an independent accusation of GENOCIDE against GOSL. Trincomanb 02:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Australian Federal Member of Parliament Paul Zammit not an organisation. Idiot politicians can say what they want to get votesRuchiraw 12:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Uniting Church of Australia also condemns genocide in Sri Lanka [9] Trincomanb 03:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This is from Tamilnation. Where is the Uniting Church citation. Ruchiraw 12:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Brian Senewiratne (relative of CBK) [10] accuses SL Government of genocide against Tamils (June 2006) Trincomanb 03:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

When did Brian Senewiratne become an independent organisation. I think he had a few comments about teh LTTE as well Ruchiraw 12:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Where is your 95 % citation ? Trincomanb 02

26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This may be an acceptable source for you as to ethnicity of those missing described in Amnesty reports. 95% is based on my knowledge of teh fact that there were much less than 5% Tamils in teh JVP. Ruchiraw 12:14, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Where is your " majority of disappeared persons are tamil " citation. Ruchiraw 02:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I never mentioned this. You are making false statement and you are cornered! Trincomanb 02:40, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Nevertheless,according to your arguments above you should have no problem accepting the following:

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. An independent human rights organizations such as the Asian Human Rights Comission maintains the Sri Lankan government has been committing crimes against humanity [11], including on its Tamil minority. Trincomanb 01:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The above link does NOT show that Asian Human Rights Comission maintains the Sri Lankan government has been committing crimes against humanity. The article is a paper written by someone. "The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. However, the international community has not accepted the charges of genocide and state sponsored terrorism against the Sri Lankan government." There is an allegation agaisnt the Sri Lankan government, and there is nothing wrong with pointing out a fact to dispute it. Supermod 03:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Intro 31 July onwards

I have added this fact

"The international community does not support the charges of genocide and state sponsored terrorism against the Sri Lankan government. "

I have come to the conclusion taht many users on this page are intereted in pushing the statements made by LTTE without regard to facts. There does not appear to be any intention for compromise or consensus here but rather an insistence on edit and revert wars. 1 We can follow teh dispute resolution procedurew which I have requested at least 8 times. Since no-one is interested in this , I do not know how to proceed, Ruchiraw 14:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

:That statement would be quite false Ruchiraw, the genocide component might be true, but there are many international actors who would support the claim that the GoSL is responsible for many instances of State Terrorism, just do a search on the AHRC website on their statements about Sri Lanka, there a several pages of statements criticizing SL's human rights record. Besides this goes against the very item you were asking us to read as I pointed out to you above, you had no response to that, yet you go ahead and make changes without consensus.

:: My objections are with regard to the genocide mainly . I have seen no international org/community use the words state terrorsim with regard to Sri Lanka

Now as always it only seems to be you who does not wish to compromise, despite repeated requests you still unilaterally make changes, and constantly come up with new objections even after we strive to gain consensus and add your earlier points in a fair and neutral manner. Further all your objections are always to insert your/GoSL POV into the article, so who is trying to tilt this article?

:There is no need for mediation when it is only one user who is disrupting this article.--Realstarslayer 14:28, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

International community refers to countriesRuchiraw 15:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Dont use weasel words

Be careful with weasel words The term "weasel words" refers to expressions such as "is claimed", "is thought to be", and "is alleged." While these may be legitimate rhetorical devices, they should be carefully scrutinized to ensure that they are not used to insert hidden bias, since claimed implies that the claim may not be true and that there is some reason to doubt it. For example:

...is widely thought to be the work of... (good) ...who claimed they were forced from their homes... (bad--It's quite possible the people described were forced from their homes. ) Ruchiraw 15:06, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This single user is trying to force his way and insert GOSL POV statements. Now his arguments are becoming laughable. Then this user trys to weasel out by finding ridiculous excuses. Claims IFT is an LTTE front, then backs down after finding out its only IFT UK. Then finds a blog site to claim IFT is a front organization. The user first says, there is no independent organization that accusses SL of genocide, yet there is and so decides to change it to international community. The point is that a balanced article cannot satisfy a person with an extremist POV and it shouldn't. If this user is not satisfied, I think its time to ignore him and work with everyone else. As Trincoman had put forward this following statement should be fine according to user Ruchiraw's logic, yet this user is ignoring this because of one reason, it looks bad for his side (GOSL), eventhough its true. This user has completely the ignored the accusation of crimes against humanity and comes up with 95 % Sinhala number which he has no citations and forced to admit so:

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. An independent human rights organizations such as the Asian Human Rights Comission maintains the Sri Lankan government has been committing crimes against humanity [12], including on its Tamil minority. Johnathan1156 15

20, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

This single user is trying to force his way and insert GOSL POV statements. Now his arguments are becoming laughable.

wHY DONT YOU WANT MEDIATION Ruchiraw 16:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Then this user trys to weasel out by finding ridiculous excuses. Claims IFT is an LTTE front, then backs down after finding out its only IFT UK. Then finds a blog site to claim IFT is a front organization.

They were banned in UK and moved to Geneva . See

http://www.asiantribune.com/index.php?q=node/154Ruchiraw 16:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Is the Asiantribune a reliable source of information ?

LTTE Commander Bahnu seriously injured [13], reported by Asian Tribune, yet flip over to TamilNet and I see Col. Bahnu perfectly fine and taken today SL time [14]. If it was the New York Times, there would be some head rolling, yet for the Asiantribune it seems its all in the days work. Trincomanb 17:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The user first says, there is no independent organization that accusses SL of genocide, yet there is and so decides to change it to international community.

Independent organisation or community Ruchiraw 16:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

The point is that a balanced article cannot satisfy a person with an extremist POV and it shouldn't. If this user is not satisfied, I think its time to ignore him and work with everyone else. As Trincoman had put forward this following statement should be fine according to user Ruchiraw's logic, yet this user is ignoring this because of one reason, it looks bad for his side (GOSL), eventhough its true. This user has completely the ignored the accusation of crimes against humanity and comes up with 95 % Sinhala number which he has no citations and forced to admit so:

This is the percentage of Sinhalese in JVP to which the 16000 diasppeared figure refers between 1988-1992

There is no mediation necessary when you have one spoiler, who is acting in bad faith.

Johnathan1156 15:26, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Your reluctance for mediation is entirely showing your biasRuchiraw 16:07, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

And your reluctance to compromise is showing yours... You would at least need to go through an RfC process first before thinking about mediation, however I still maintain that you are the only one being difficult here and it is not a case of two opposing camps, thus mediation does not seem necessary. We changed a perfectly fine introduction to accomodate some of your concerns in a neutral manner, however you still refused to be statisfied with that and kept bringing up more and more 'concerns'.--Realstarslayer 16:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

There is no need for mediation. Ruchiraw first learn the phrase 'cooperative writing.' Trincomanb 17:57, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

We should all remember to be civil, humble and to remember that just the fact that we manage to discuss this peacefully is a great achievement. The article will never be finished, but its improving, and I dont think either side (LTTE or GoSL) can claim that it is favourable to them. And as usual, the truth is somewhere in between. Ulflarsen 18:04, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ruchiraw - "The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. However, the international community has not accepted the charges of genocide and state sponsored terrorism against the Sri Lankan government." There is an allegation agaisnt the Sri Lankan government, and there is nothing wrong with pointing out a fact to dispute it. Supermod 06:13, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

:Supermod as I mentioned above (below? I'm lost now..) I have no problem with the genocide part of that, but you cannot lump state terrorism in there since that is a factual accusation. So how about this:

::The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. While the international community has not accepted the charges of genocide many human rights groups have leveled accusations of human rights violations against the Sri Lankan government.

:--Realstarslayer 04:25, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Revert war

I would like to respectfully remind all contributors of the Three Revert Rule, which some are in danger of exceeding. There are many admins who are quite pro-active about enforcing this, and the last thing anyone wants is to be blocked for 24 hours. It also seems to me that the gap here is very small. Would everyone be happy tacking on ", an allegation the Sri Lankan Government in turn rejects" to the sentence stating that the LTTE accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism? This is on par with the way the accusation of terrorism against the LTTE is treated, and seems to me to be a reasonable way of resolving the very small disagreement that remains. Just a suggestion, take it or shoot it down as you will. -- Arvind 01:34, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I am agreeable to what you have suggested, though written as the following to maintain factual accuracy:

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority,an allegation the Sri Lankan Government in turn rejects. An independent human rights organizations such as the Asian Human Rights Comission maintains the Sri Lankan government has been committing crimes against humanity [15], including on its Tamil minority. Trincomanb 02:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I say leave it as follows just to shorten it a little, but note the link added to the SL state terror page, so readers can go there for more details.

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority, an allegation the Sri Lankan Government in turn rejects despite some evidence to the contrary[16].

--Realstarslayer 04:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm... that link doesn't seem to support the claim made in the sentence - it doesn't mention either genocide or state-sponsored terrorism, and talks instead of "crimes against humanity", which is not quite the same thing (genocide and sst are two types of crimes against humanity, but there are also several others). It seems to me that if you want to keep the link in here, you should change the accusation to "crimes against humanity", so it's actually supported by the link ("...despite some evidence of it having committed crimes against humanity"), or replace it with one which supports the allegation of genocide and sst. Again, just my opinion. I don't plan to be actively involved in editing this article for the foreseeable future, so I have no strong opinions on how it should end up reading. -- Arvind 14:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Arvind, yes I agree with you, my contention was the statement entered in by Ruchiraw that no international actors have accused the GoSL of genocide nor state terrorism is false, the genocide claim is true however there is plenty of evidence for state terrorism from international players, maybe that link is not the best example. However as I stated above a quick search of the AHRC page gives many other examples, so we could change the wording that's fine. Besides the point that he seems to mis is that this is only a statement of what the LTTE claims and not whether this is fact or not.--Realstarslayer 15:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok Lets say this statement appeared on your website UserXXX is accused of murder but he denies it. Wouldnt it be bit more NPOV to say whether judicial proceedings have been initiated , whether UserXXX has been convicted. In short the Complete picture.NB:-crimes against humanity is different from genocide. We need to clarify teh picture a bit more to make it NPOV Ruchiraw 12:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

TrincomanB , here is the GoSL accusation of ethnic cleansing.http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/SP93230.htmRuchiraw 12:24, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Which is laughable since that land was taken by 'ethnically cleansing' the Tamils there first, besides the GoSL can call it whatever it wants that is their POV. Now to your point above, this is not a situation that is as cut and dry as a single murder, in your view it maybe since you already hold the GoSL POV, however if you are trying to be neutral then the way the intro is now, or even with the addition above is the way to go. Even leaving that aside, it is an intro, you don't include so many details in the intro. When writting an essay do you place all your main points in your intro paragraph and explain and expand on them there? What Happens to the body of the essay then?--Realstarslayer 13:18, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree , what the LTTE accuse the GoSL of can be discussed in the body. You can't have accusations listed in the intro without relation to facts . The international community DOES not recognise that Sri Lanka is committing genocide. This is in contrast to genocide of Armenians which 21 countries have recognised. Not even one country has accused SL of genocide. The UN likewise recognises teh Rwandan Genocide as follows. No genocide has been recognised by the international community in Sri Lanka

Meanwhile, the United Nations set up the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, currently based in Arusha, Tanzania. The United Nations Tribunal has jurisdiction over high level members of the government and armed forces, while Rwanda is responsible for prosecuting lower level leaders and local people. Tensions have arisen between Rwanda and the United Nations over use of the death penalty.[citations needed] Ruchiraw 14:23, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

As I noted above to Arvind, this is only a statement of what the LTTE claims, it is not a statement as to whether this is fact or not.--Realstarslayer 15:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out before , it is a major unsubstantiated accusation. At least some mention shoudl be made as to whether it is accepted by other countries or the international community. Ruchiraw 22:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said I have no problem with you mentioning that the genocide term is not supported but you cannot lump in state terrorism with that since Sri Lankan state terrorism or 'crimes against humanity' commited against Tamils are well documented by international players.--Realstarslayer 04:18, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

To address what user Arvind had mentioned, I think the following would suffice:

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority, an allegation the Sri Lankan Government in turn rejects despite some indepedent evidence of crimes against humanity [17]. Johnathan1156 15:33, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

If you specify international community has not recognized genocide occured/is occuring in sri lanka then I believe that statement is false. So far, countries have not publicly stated genocide has occured etc., but individual organizations and people have made independent accusations of genocide against the SL government (see [18],[19],[20].

These are pro-LTTE sites and do not express the consensus of the world community. Ruchiraw 22:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at the definition of the "international community" on Wikipedia [21]. According to that definition, 'international community' can refer to people of the lands all over the world. In the end the international community is made up people, both state and non-state actors. The statement therefore at least is biased because it excludes non-state actors/orginzation from the term international community. Trincomanb 18:40, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not the way IC is usually used . See http://disarmament2.un.org/cab/smallarms/presskit/sheet1.htm. However we can say no country has acknowledged genocide, Ruchiraw 22:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Anonymous edit to intro - ' democratically elected '

This is an uncessary qualification and is just adding length to the intro without any benifit. If on the other hand the idea of this entry was to somehow legitimize the position of one actor over the other, then the statement should be completely truthful and be written as 'democratically elected Sinhala government of Sri Lanka' as Tamils have had none to very little say or power in the Sri Lankan government for several decades now. For example the main Tamil party was not even invited to the 'All Party Conference' to discuss solutions to the Tamil ethinic problem.--Realstarslayer 17:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

What about the millions of Indian Tamils and Muslims and South Tamils who votedRuchiraw 23:01, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems you will argue any point, the party in power are Sinhala, the party in opposition are Sinhala, please show me where the Tamils have any say in the GoSL. If they did there would not be a mini war going on in the east over water towers not being built in Tamil areas.--Realstarslayer 04:13, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Sample NPOV intros

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opus_Dei

Accusations against OpusDei in intro

Since its foundation Opus Dei has been subjected to criticism and opposition. Jesuits were among its most vehement early critics, the most famous of which was former Jesuit and theologian Hans Urs von Balthasar. Opus Dei's opponents point to its secrecy, its clandestine financial dealings, its elitism, its ultraconservatism, its support for the extreme right-wing in politics, its misogyny, its cult-like recruitment regime and its violations of basic human rights [1].Ruchiraw 00:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Rebuttal in SAME intro

CNN's Vatican analyst, John L. Allen, Jr., and also Vittorio Messori, both Catholic journalists, stated that most of these accusations are mere myths that grew from a misinterpretation of Opus Dei. In 1994, Dr. Massimo Introvigne, a sociologist of religion and conservative Catholic scholar, stated that Opus Dei had been the target of secularists intolerant of what he saw as a "return to religion" in society. In his view, Catholic liberals and certain ex-members had unfairly stigmatized Opus Dei. Many Catholics invoke the sign of contradiction in order to explain Allen's description of Opus Dei as the most controversial force in the Catholic Church. Ultimately Opus Dei remains the subject of much political criticism both inside and outside the Catholic Church.Ruchiraw 00:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

A non controversial intro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uday_Hussein

Uday Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti (June 18, 1964 Baghdad – July 22, 2003 Mosul) Arabic: عدي صدام حسين; also transliterated as Odai) was the eldest son of Saddam Hussein and his first wife, Sajida Talfah. He was for several years seen as the heir apparent of his father. He produced the newspaper Babel as well as the youth radio station Voice of Iraq (which ran American pop songs). His erratic behavior and troubled relationship with his father and brother were well-publicized in the media both before and after he was killed at age 39 by U.S. military forces following the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Now saying that Uday was a homicidal maniac would have caused controversy and debate in the intro itself. Wikipedia strives to maintain a neutral factual tone. Ruchiraw 00:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Millions died in Armenian Genocide but they manage a NPOV view

The Armenian Genocide (Armenian: Հայոց Ցեղասպանություն, Turkish: Ermeni Soykırımı) – also known as the Armenian Holocaust, Great Calamity (Մեծ Եղեռն) or the Armenian Massacre – refers to the forced mass evacuation and related deaths of hundreds of thousands or over a million Armenians, during the government of the Young Turks from 1915 to 1917 in the Ottoman Empire. Some main aspects of the event are a matter of ongoing dispute among the academic community and between parts of the international community and Turkey. Although generally agreed that events said to comprise the Armenian Genocide did occur, the Turkish government and several international historians reject that it was genocide, and claim that the deaths among the Armenians were not a result of a state-sponsored plan of mass extermination, but of inter-ethnic strife, disease and famine during the turmoil of World War I.Ruchiraw 00:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Isnt it better to have perfection on this page Ruchiraw 00:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Changes to the Intro - Aug 2nd onward

Ok folks, so I have had no negative feedback to the last suggested wording for the remaining problem section vis-à-vis genocide etc. So I am going to implement that, however if there are any issues please discuss them here and we will try to work them out. Modifications as below:

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. While the international community has not accepted the charges of genocide many rights groups have leveled accusations of human rights violations against the Sri Lankan government [22].

--Realstarslayer 16:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

How can you say that is a factual accusation? Any elected government has to defend the country and its citizens. Therefore, SL government has launched offensive strikes agaisnt LTTE. It is true there have been civilian casualties, but it is true when you are in a war. Look at the US situation in Afghanistan. So just because there are some civilian casualties, you cannot say there is a factual accusations agaisnt a democratically elected government. And the link you have provided is a search of Sri Lankan related articles. It says some incidents happened during J.R administration, which is more than 2 decades ago. I do not think it qualifies for the into. This is what it should be:

"The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority. However, the international community has not accepted these charges against the Sri Lankan government."

Supermod 20:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I can state that exactly because it is factual, no one is talking about collateral damage here but outright crimes against humanity committed against Tamil and Sinhala civilians (various massacres, extrajudicial killings, disappearances all documented by human rights groups, JVP uprisings) by various Sri Lankan governments. There is no argument on this point, that is why it cannot be included in the same sentence as the ‘international community doesn’t accept genocide’ that may well be so, however they do acknowledge human rights abuses by the GoSL.--Realstarslayer 04:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

The following statement presented earlier I believe is accurate and maintains govt. denial and independent evidence. The statement above is false as had been shown earlier. I think the statement presented below is the best compromise that could be achieved and no one has given reasoning to disapprove it, so I will make the changes.

The LTTE itself rejects this characterisation, and in turn accuses the Sri Lankan government of genocide and state-sponsored terrorism against the Tamil minority, an allegation the Sri Lankan Government in turn rejects despite some indepedent evidence of crimes against humanity [23]. Trincomanb 21:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Trincomanb all the other intros about genocide on Wikipedia have a statement about whether it is a recognised genocide or not. It is factual that these allegations of genocide and state terrorism have not been accepted by any country. Ruchiraw 23:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

While the allegations of genocide may be unfounded, those of state terrorism perpetrated by Sri Lankan governments are quite true and well documented. So you cannot add 'and state terrorism'. By even arguing this point your bias is clearly showing through.--Realstarslayer 04:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Why don't we remove the last bit of that section altogether? For one, it doesn't seem everyone here can agree on a final wording. And in any case we can fill a whole encyclopedia with allegations traded by both sides (although maybe not Wikipedia;-). So I think we should just leave the important facts in the intro only. --snowolfD4 22:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Some accusations have been made of the LTTE and the denial plus counter accusation has been deleted in your version. This getting to be worse. You should have a valid reasoning for going with your version. The last version that I had displayed is factually correct and does allow all sides a denial response etc. Trincomanb 22:28, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesnt present the complete picture. Thus in a sense its not NPOVRuchiraw 23:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Please explain how that or my earlier version does not give a balanced perspective? Unless your definition of NPOV is something like now just disregard everything the LTTE says because only what the GoSL says is true.--Realstarslayer 04:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

An alternate workable solution is to remove all accusations and controversial words in the intro, including accusations against the LTTE and the Government, removal of the word terrorism etc and removal of ban/proscription etc. All of these facts obviously should not be removed from the article but simply from the intro. Trincomanb 22:39, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

This is an article about LTTE and you want to remove the fact that 1.5 billion people have banned it as a terrorsity group from the intro. That makes the intro meaningless. This is wikipedia , we are here to present NPOV facts. Look at other articles and get a sense of whats going on there. Ruchiraw 23:34, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), also known as the Tamil Tigers, is a military and political organization that has waged a violent secessionist campaign against the Sri Lankan Government since the 1970s in order to secure independence for the traditional Tamil regions in the North and East of Sri Lanka.

The LTTE proclaims itself the sole representative and protector of Sri Lankan Tamils whereas the Sri Lankan Government and several international players contend this claim is false and feel that the LTTE alone cannot be considered as such [24]. Despite this the LTTE are still generally seen as being the main body with whom the government must negotiate in order to end the long-running conflict in Sri Lanka.

The LTTE primarily consists of an army, a navy and a recently created air wing. However, it also exercises some, but not all, civil functions in territory under its control, including legislative, judicial, police, financial, and cultural functions, but excluding monetary, educational and some administrative functions. It is headed by its reclusive founder, Velupillai Prabhakaran.

Trincomanb 22:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

LTTE has also committed crimes against humanity

See

Although it was not established that the appellant had personally committed crimes against humanity, he was responsible for crimes against humanity committed by the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE) because of his leadership position within that organization and his continuing participation in it.

http://reports.fja.gc.ca/fc/1994/pub/v1/1994fca0318.htmlRuchiraw 02:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

If you look carefully at the Facts section, the reasoning for crimes against humanity allegation is not "murderous persecution or any large scale atrocities against a body of people", as being the criminal offense above all other, but rather individual cases of extra-judicial killings of suspected government informants and members of rival militant organizations . The 'crimes against humanity' reffered to here [25] and the one in the International criminal law are quite different in definition as can be seen in the case above. Whats in your article is 'crimes against humanity' based on the definition in International Criminal Law, which doesn't imply "acts of murderous persecution or any large scale atrocities against a body of people, as being the criminal offense above all other" but rather could include tactics used in a violent insurgency that don't constitute as mass killings but break the law of a country (see http://www.crimesofwar.org/thebook/crimes-against-humanity.html for more details).

Johnathan1156 04:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

LTTE and mass media

I wonder if we should add a subsection on LTTE and mass media? The LTTE has put much weight in using mass media, and has an extensive network of newspapers, websites, TV and radio stations it controls, it also places photo and videoteams up front in the campaigns it fights. Like it or not, but its pretty impressing, when I was serving in Jaffna pictures from a hartal I was trying to cool down was on Tamilnet before I got back to office. If there are no objections I could try to write a few lines. Ulflarsen 16:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a great idea, media is an important tool for both sides of the conflict so should be discussed in more detail.--Realstarslayer 18:00, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The thing about LTTE's use of media is that it's rather advanced, they assign scarce resources to covering events, to the point that several of their mediateams have died on the battlefields. They put a lot of effort into it, and like it or not - it should be in the article about the organisation. Ulflarsen 20:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Ulf when you are back I would still be happy to help you with creating this 'media' page.--Realstarslayer 19:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

RfC - Introduction to LTTE Article

There has been an ongoing debate and discussion surrounding the wording of the introduction to this article. Since this is a controversial topic with strong views on both sides the idea was to give a balanced statement of the views held by both parties to the conflict, i.e. the LTTE and the Government of Sri Lanka. However some users had complained that there should be counter arguments to the claims of the LTTE, then others had claimed that there should be counter arguments to those GoSL claims in turn. Eventually several version of the introduction were written all attempting to be neutral, however the users involved kept bringing up new points and making edits without consensus and it seems no consensus is possible with these users. Thus the RfC as a first step to finding a solution.

Please see some of the pertinent discussion sections:

Changes to New Intro - July 29th Onward

POV in current intro

Intro 31 July onwards

Changes to the Intro - Aug 2nd onward

05:17, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Submitted for RfC

I have submitted this article to the RfC page. I think this is the only way we are going to get a solution here since it seems Ruchiraw has no genuine will to find a compromise and is not going to let it go until his own POV is written into the introduction. Every time we finally come up with a neutrally worded introduction he will find something new to complain about.--Realstarslayer 05:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I truly believe it would be better to go back to the introduction as it stood a week or so ago:

[26] Credmond 11:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

It does not seem possible, if you just take a look at the editors running amok now with this article, they will not be satisfied until it has become a GoSL propaganda piece. I am not going to bother anymore till we have some outside input, since the individuals concerned show no respect to other editors nor to consensus and neutrality.--Realstarslayer 12:44, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Support your initiative in requesting some outside help. No use in engaging in discussions when one of the participants have a POV agenda. This article has indeed suffered from that from both parties to the conflict. Ulflarsen 21:18, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion to compare with Al Queda page

Why don't we all look at a page for another terrorist organization like Al Queda. The intro doesn't go into various allegations by and towards Al Queda. Instead it sticks to some basic facts only and covers everything in detail in the later in the text.

Similarly I think the intro on the LTTE should focus on 3 main points.

• What it is
• What it's fighting for
• International reaction

For example

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), also known as the Tamil Tigers, is a military and political organization that has waged a violent secessionist campaign against the Sri Lankan Government since the 1970s in order to secure independence for the traditional Tamil regions in the North and East of Sri Lanka.

The LTTE proclaims itself the sole representative and protector of Sri Lankan Tamils whereas the Sri Lankan Government and several international governments contend this claim is false and feel that the LTTE alone cannot be considered as such. Despite this the LTTE are still generally seen as being the main body with whom the government must negotiate in order to end the long-running conflict in Sri Lanka.

The LTTE has been repeatedly accused of using terrorism and violating human rights, and is currently banned as a terrorist organisation in a number of countries (see List). Accusations of attempted ethnic cleansing have also been traded by both sides in the past. The LTTE contends proscription by certain international actors as a tactic used to pressurize the movement to seek an unfavourable negotiated settlement, while the Sri Lankan government and some international governments contend the LTTE intends to create an authoritarian mono-ethnic state.

The LTTE primarily consists of an army, a navy and a recently created air wing. However, it also exercises some, but not all, civil functions in territory under its control, including legislative, judicial, police, financial, and cultural functions, but excluding monetary, educational and some administrative functions. It is headed by its reclusive founder, Velupillai Prabhakaran.

--snowolfD4 06:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

:So where is the 'what it is fighting for'? This is why we have the statements about state terrorism, the LTTE was not formed because a bunch of Tamil students got bored one day and decided it would be cool to start a rebel movement, this version completely leaves out those acusations so for someone who does not know the subject they would be left wondering. Other than that it works for me, however this has become the new problem now after all.--Realstarslayer 12:53, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is the LTTE fighting? READ the first paragraph VERY VERY CLEARLY. As it says, .. in order to secure independence for the traditional Tamil regions... Did you miss that part? That is the main idea behind the LTTE and so should be what is included in the intro. Other allegations by the LTTE come later in the article. --snowolfD4 05:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

:Yes but why do they claim to need an independent state do you not think that is important in describing who they are?--Realstarslayer 14:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Snowolfd4. The intro should focus on the known facts. Any claims , conterclaims etc:- should take place in the body of the article. Ruchiraw 11:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

: This statement itself shows your POV bias, if you have already concluded that the LTTE are terrorists how can you write a neutral introduction? The only facts are that the GoSL and some in the international community consider the LTTE as terrorists, and that the majority of the Sri Lankan Tamils consider them as freedom fighters, so both views should be presented equally, however it seems you only want the GoSL POV throughout.--Realstarslayer 12:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Like they say, you need to take a good look at yourself in a mirror before you start throwing around allegations all over the place. You obviously think that the LTTE are freedom fighters, so in that sense how can you write a NPOV intro? And come on, were you serioulsy thinking right when you wrote this? Because according to what you say everyone who considers Al Queda a terrorist organization shouldn't be allowed to contribute to the intro on Al Queda. That'll work out real nice wouldn't it? I can just imagine. --snowolfD4 05:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

:Really? I challenge you to show me where any of my edits have not been neutral? It seems for some people with a POV even being neutral is seen as a POV just as it happens with the SLMM and accusations leveled against them by both sides. It doesn't matter what your POV is as long as you can work towards nuetraility with a good faith effort, however this has not been the case. --Realstarslayer 14:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

How about looking at your contributions list. I'd say you'd find a whole lot there. I frankly cannot be bothered.Though from what I remember on of the the most notable would be when you said Muslims spoke Tamil and so they were Tamil. (I'm still laughing at that one). As for the rest of what you've said, it completely contradicts what you said above. Case in point

First if you have already concluded that the LTTE are terrorists how can you write a neutral introduction?

Then It doesn't matter what your POV is as long as you can work towards nuetraility (sic)

And listen, I can think of a hundred better thing to do than argue with you cos it's a complete waste of my time so unless you've got something valid to the discussion to say, do so. But STOP personal attacks. That's all I'm really going to say on this. -snowolfD4 01:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

:::Again I challenge you to show me exactly where any of my contributions to articles have not been neutrally written and cited properly? If you cannot, I consider your vague accusations and hand waving to be a personal attack. You must be clutching at straws if the best you can do is hold up a mistake I made in the course of a discussion about whether Tamil speaking muslims are Tamil or not as a POV bias, please try harder. In case you missed my point earlier let me reiterate it for you, everyone has a POV, but when you let that POV get in the way of working towards a good faith and neutral article then there is a problem. In fact you have not really been guilty of this so that comment wasn't even directed at you but at Ruchiraw who has repeatedly shown this trait of letting his POV get in the way of neutrality. --Realstarslayer 02:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It is not our conclusion. the fact is that the LTTE is banned in over 30 countries and its activities interdicted in many other countries because it has committed terrorsit actions. You willl find attacks on Anuradhapura Sri Maha Bodhi,Dehiwela train, Kattankudy mosques and on Sinhala villages meet the following criteria from terrorism specifically violence and deliberate targetting of non-combatants for achieving of political objectives. The intro for LTTE starts saying it is a military and political organisation so what are you complaining about. "accused of terrorism" mentioned int the intro is also not the same as concluding that the LTTE are terrorists. Perhaps you do not feel that massacring hundreds of unarmed civilians(including women and children) in temples, mosques, trains, villages etc:- are not terrorist actions. That is not the view shared by most people.However I agree the LTTE combine conventional warfare with terrorist actions and both aspects need to be mentioned. Ruchiraw 22:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Can anyone give me an independent reference where Sri Lanka has been accused of state terrorism. As far as I am aware this accusation is only made by LTTE and its media outlets to cover up the fact that most of the world regards it as a terrosist organisation Ruchiraw 22:46, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

::: You are just arguing over semantics now, besides the intro states that rights groups have accused Sri Lanka of human rights violations not state terrorism. Definition of state terrorism taken from state terrorism:

::::State terrorism is a controversial term (see:State terrorism. Confines and definition), which means violence against civilians perpetrated by a national government or proxy state. Whether a particular act is described as "terrorism" may depend on whether the International community considers the action justified or necessary, or whether the described act is carried out as part of an armed conflict.

::: Have various Sri Lankan governments or proxy agents committed violent acts against civilians? The answer is a resounding yes, thus various Sri Lankan government have been and are guilty of 'state terrorism' by the definition above. Perhaps you want to go and change that definition too? So human rights violations by a government is state terrorism or are you going to split hairs on this distinction?

::: As for links here you go again:

:::*Amnesty :::*HRW :::*even SPUR gets in on it :::*US DoS :::*AHRC

You are missing my point . No independent sources have accused Sri Lanka of state terrorism. This accusation is only levelled by the LTTE as an attempt to equate itself with a democratically elected government. This has to be mentioned. Ruchiraw 08:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

::: There is a very informative paper here that I suggest you read, it discusses the topic of terrorism versus state terrorism [27]. I also suggest you note the difference between state terrorism and a terrorist state, a state may still practice terrorism (against its people) without being a terrorist state.

Have they labelled Sri Lanka as terrorist state, some of these definitions can fit Japan as well. This is teh LTTEs interpretationRuchiraw 08:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

::: And here is some more on the subject: www.reference.com article, note what they state as the methods of state terrorism:

::::Although state terrorism is an almost universal social phenomenon, instances of state terror usually fall into certain categories. Unfair trials, torture, and extrajudicial execution are said to be common practices of state terror, often used to terrorize domestic populations by sovereign or proxy regimes.

::: Various Sri Lankan governments have been accused or proven to have committed such acts.

:::--Realstarslayer 00:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

it is only the LTTEs new tactic to extrapolate these human rights violations as terrorism. India has definitely committed more in the Punjab and Kashmir insurgencies and noone is pinning this label on them. Ruchiraw 08:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

If you want to keep all the allegations by the LTTE in the intro, then all allegations against the LTTE should also be included in the intro. Such as Child Recruitment, eliminating rival Tamil politicians and a whole lot more. And that'll should make the intro very easy to read, wouldn't it? --snowolfD4 05:57, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Sending chldren under 15 into battle is defined as a war crime by the UN. Perhaps because immature children are easily brainwashed into biting cyanide pills and having a life ambition of blowing themselves into bits. This should be mentioned at least. Somehow this gets deleted all the time. Also these accusations are made against the LTTE by the UN and neutral countries like Canada and are credible

How about adding following sentence

The UN Rapporteur on human rights is investigating continued recruitment of child soldiers by the LTTE.

Why dont they get grown men or women for gods sake. I feel sorry for children having to choose who to kill instead of which school to go to

Ruchiraw 08:50, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

:::::::You should ask the GoSL why they are violating the CFA and not vacating schools and other civilan building so that these children can in fact go back to school? You should also ask them why they blocked tsunami aid to these children so that they were easy prey for the LTTE recruiters? Further can you show me some evidence that human rights abuses by a State do not consititute state terrorism by the definitions given? I have provided citations to back my arguments above so until you can do likewise and come to a consensus stop adding 'state terrorism' as not being recognized in the intro - I will change this back yet again now.--Realstarslayer 14:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

::::::Hi Snowolfd4, while I have no problem adding 'child soldiers' to the intro since it is fact you must ask yourself what exactly the intro is? It is to give an idea of who the LTTE are why they fight and counter claims to their major arguments. So are you telling me that the major reason the GoSL opposes the LTTE is because of Tamil child soldiers? Hardly, the major reasons are that they consider the LTTE to be terrorists and they want to ensure the territorial integrity of Sri Lanka, just as the major reasons for the LTTE is the goal of independence due to perceived or real genocide and state terror. Both of these claims are addressed in the intro. The further details are already well covered in the body of the article. So should we start getting into the minutiae of LTTE accusations in the intro as well? Such as claims of rape, torture, extrajudicial killings, etc. against Tamil civilians by the GoSL? These cases too are just as much fact as ‘child soldiers’?--Realstarslayer 14:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

You need to get a clear idea of what an "introduction" is. It's to give the basic facts on a certain point only. If you want to include all the LTTE claims, arguments against it, what they are, their history an all that, why write an entire article. Just put everything we've got on this page into the Intro! That should look nice:) You tell me anywhere that I've said anything like "the government opposes the LTTE is because of Tamil child soldiers" and I swear I'll shoot myself or something like that. If not, just explain, what made you thing that? The government did not just start fighting the LTTE. As the intro I proposed says "(The LTTE) has waged a violent secessionist campaign against the Sri Lankan Government since the 1970s in order to secure independence". The LTTE didn't start off by accusing the government of genocide etc. Those allegations have come later on in the conflict. --snowolfD4 01:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

:Perhaps I was not clear, I did not state that you were saying such, all I was saying is that the intro should contain the main points about the issue at hand and that child soldiers was not a main reason why the GoSL was fighting the LTTE, just as we do not list every little detail of LTTE accusations such as rape, torture etc in the intro. These details are covered in the main body, but anyway as I said I have no major concern with including the child soldier statement. As for securing independence why did they want independence from the 1970s, this has to be addressed in some capacity? We cannot just say they wanted independence, what for? --Realstarslayer 04:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Accusations and facts

I suggest we remove all the claims and counterclaims and stick to known issues from credible sources

LTTE (UN, AHRC, US, EU , Canada, Amnesty)

1. Runs some administrative functions and is a military force
2. Banned as a terrorist organisation in 29 countries
3. Practises Child soldier recruitment
4. Ethnic cleansing rsulting in pure tamil population in areas under its control
5. Most number of suicide bombs by any group in the world
6. Assasinates all democratic Tamil opponents
7. Fascist setup in areas it controls (murders all opponents)
8. Involved in organised crime , drug smuggling, arms smuggling
9. Links to other terrorist groups
10. Extorts money from Tamil expatriates
11. One of few groups to carry out international suicide bombings

Sri Lanka(Amnesty,AHRC, UN , EU, US), Democratically elected government, 2/3 of tamils and all Muslims prefer to live in SL government areas than under LTTE.

LTTE backed party holds 25 seats in Sri Lankas parliament in free elections held in Sri Lanka

Human rights violations

ANyone want to add to this list FROM credible sources. Ruchiraw 09:18, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

::Ok now this could be a way to do it but let us list all the facts then and decide what should be included in the intro. For example you break down many of the LTTEs activities which would be classified as 'terrorism' into individual categories but only mention the GoSL activities as human rights violations, so it should either be 'terrorist activities' for the LTTE or expand 'human rights' violations, perhaps a list as follows:

:::*anti Tamil pogroms[28]

:::*torture in custody see Sri Lanka sectionAHRC

:::*extrajudicial killings US DoS[29] - can be used for both sides.

:::*rapeAIAI

:::*attacks on civilians - (various bombings and massacres) citations for more recent incidents available but if we are looking for earlier ones harder to come by, but examples would civilians killed during the Jaffna offensive, the blockade of Jaffna prompting India to air drop food, etc. these are common knowledge.

:::HRW - can be used for both side's abuses.

::Other items to be considered

:::*sidelining of Tamil political aspirations - changes to constitution etc - Read series of articles at Asia Times on line - 'Sri Lanka: The Untold Story' I only give the sangam link since it is not well indexed on the actual Asia Times page[30]

:::*Sinhala only act (could be part of the above) -common knowledge

:::*standardization/educational changes - also contained in Asia times articles

:::*state sponsored colonisation of Tamil areas - same as above

::: will provide links to individual articles when I have some time.

::So with a complete picture we can decide which of these should be included in an intro?--Realstarslayer 15:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Your list of accusations is a clear farce. You have finally unmasked your POV intentions for the article. You want to turn a encyclopedia article into a propaganda piece. Dream on.. Trincomanb 10:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I do not agree with you Trincomanb in that Ruchiraw's list is a farce. The one point I have not seen valid sources for is organised crime and drug smuggling, the rest has lots of sources. But then, at the same time the article intro needs to present that the LTTE still has rather huge support, and the reason for that is due to the way the sinhalese have treated the tamil minority. Ulflarsen 11:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I did some small changes to the list to tighten it up. If it changed the meaning do change it back. Ulflarsen 11:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

User Ulflarsen, if you indeed don't think the list is a farce, I challenge you to show evidence for the following. Your credibility is on the line! It seems you have seen lots of *neutral* sources to add:

1) Ethnic cleansing rsulting in *pure tamil population* in areas under its control

2) Assasinates *all* democratic Tamil opponents

3) Fascist setup in areas it controls (murders *all* opponents)

4) *2/3 of tamils* and *all Muslims prefer* to live in SL government areas than under LTTE

5) One of few groups to carry out *international suicide bombings*

Trincomanb 11:55, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I leave it to Runchraw to provide links that support the list he made. When it comes to the points you have its a fact that everyone knows that have been in Wanni that there are no sinhalese or muslims there, neither in Jaffna except from the sinhalese forces. Regarding assasinations the LTTE has a impressing list of people it has assassinated that opposed it, even though it has not taken responsibility for all. Fascist setup; there are some close resemblance between LTTE and european fascist movement (one leader/one people, death cult, terror against everyone who oppose the party line etc). When it comes to 2/3 of tamils living outside Wanni I believe that is also a fact, you have all the tamils in Jaffna, around Colombo, in Trinco etc. And finally, LTTE murdered the late PM in India, Rajiv Gandhi, even Bala has admitted that now. But then again, the interesting fact here is also: How was a peaceful and resourceful community as the Ceylon tamils transformed into supporting one of the deadliest best trained separatist groups in the world?

Talking about credibility; I do not support either of the two sides (GoSL or LTTE). My symphaty goes to all the people in Ceylon/Sri Lanka, the ones that tragically is involved in the downward spiral of a country that once was believed by many to be the first ex-colony to join the ranks of the developed world. Nowadays it seems more likely that instead of being the next Singapore, it will be the next Somalia; and as I have been all three places I pity their bad fortune. And, needless to say, I also support Wikipedia as I have done for the last two years. Honestly, I think you both should try to listen to one another; and try to discuss until we can agree on the article, that would give a hand to all those who want to learn something about the conflict, and it would prove that even though there is conflict in Lanka, we manage to solve it here... Ulflarsen 12:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Ulf, that is why I think it is important to mention the LTTE's claims, whether perceived or real, in the introduction, as just stating 'they want independence' does not give the whole picture as to why.--Realstarslayer 15:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Ulflarsen, you have completely sidestepped the issues. You believe in the Ruchiraw list, but you are answers is a classic example of hand waving. Wanni always had majority Tamil population. You haven't backed up the statement about a *pure tamil population*. You have agreed LTTE kills *all* democratic Tamil opponent. How come Anandasangaree (TULF) leader was never attacked by the LTTE ? Do you have proof LTTE murders all its opponents ? The point is that you have your POV, myths and fairy tales you hang onto and your are entitled to it, but you hardly have list of evidence to show for it on an encyclopedia. You are hand waving you way out of answering the questions. 2/3 Tamils and all Muslims prefer to live in Govt controlled areas ? Do you know Tamils are tagged,photographed and fingerprinted like animals at the local police stations in Sinhala areas. This is like how the Nazi's put yellow stars on Jews before the holocaust. Do you honestly thinks Tamils like to live in Sinhalese south, they could be faced with another wave of genocide at anytime. Will your SLMM and Norway even raise a voice in case that happens ? I doubt it. Look what Norway and your SLMM colleagues are doing now, when hundreds of unarmed Tamil civillians (particularly women and children) get killed ... dead silence... nothing. There is no point of talking morality and credibility with Norway, SLMM and the like when they do such a hollow job. Yes I believe LTTE did kill Rajiv Gandhi, but they have apologized for it. India has taken note of LTTE's apology and hence the chapter is closed. Nevertheless to be specific this was carried out by LTTE affliated group in Tamil Nadu, not the LTTE itself. Are you really suprised average people will support a violent insurrection when faced with more than 30 years of embargoes, occupation and economic, cultural genocide ? If Southern Sri Lanka turns into a Somalia, I am sure Tamils will not take pity on them, considering what they had to endure for more than 50 years. Trincomanb 14:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty to move your comment after mine. LTTE needs to be placed into context, but on the other hand the intro should not be too long. That is a challenge to us. Speaking about the conflict and LTTE, I can highly recommend the book "Blowback: Linguistic Nationalism, Institutional Decay, and Ethnic Conflict in Sri Lanka", it is not kind on LTTE, but at the same time gives a background for how the LTTE evolved. About the article, honestly I believe we are getting somewhere. Its expanded, its not kind on the LTTE and at the same time it is not a propagandapiece from JVP/JHU. That is some achievement we all should be proud of. Keep up the good work guys! Ulflarsen 19:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Just read this comment in Atimes [31], seems it has a good overview of the military capacity of both sides. Believe we should incorporate it here and possibly also in other articles. Will be on holiday for a week so will probably not be active for some days. Enjoy and keep a civil tone all of you! :-) Ulflarsen 20:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

No problem on moving my comment my bad formatting after all =) The link above seems to go back to the discussion page? Perhaps you pasted the wrong one? If you could give us the right link would be appreciated, sounds like a good read. Thanks --Realstarslayer 20:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC).

Sorry, corrected the link. The article has a interesting list of the sources each side has. I do believe the LTTE has more resources though. Ulflarsen 20:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Ulf, enjoy your holidays!--Realstarslayer 21:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Ruchiraw that we need to stick to credible sources only. That means leaving out all of the various websites biased towards either side.
And SOMALIA? Really Ulflarsen, I know thing aren't ideal around here and it's a real shame that we haven't been able to resolve this conflict long ago and it's seriously destroying the country but Somalia type bad? Emm. I certainly hope not anyway :-)
And I can't agree more. We should keep everything civilized and reach consensus on this article through discussion (now I sound like a politician don't I?), and avoid personal attacks. Remember this is Wikipedia by the way. --snowolfD4 01:47, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, remember verifiability is one of the pillars of Wikipedia. Are we agreed on including the list of named issues into the intro. I can provide credible references for the list I have described. Upto Realstarslayer to apply credible references for his list.

Somalia does not even have a police force, banks, juduciary or central infrastructure. Sri Lanka is not even as bad off as Nepal right now. Even Pakistan has relinquished control of Baluchistan because it is too difficult to fight groups which mingle in with civilians. There are many countries such as Georgia which have temporarily lost control of parts of the country. Even Russia lost control of Chechnya for several years. The LTTE holds mostly jungle. Sri Lanka is still a stable democracy which Somalia never was. Ruchiraw 07:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

:I have added some citations and notes above. As for the Somalia thing, I think Ulf just means if this keeps going someday it could be that bad, however I agree with you the situation is not early that dire yet, and it seems things are getting back to normal again in the east so there is hope yet.--Realstarslayer 13:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

conflict resolution

whether its two people two groups or two nations the way to resolve conflict is:

1. calm down only speak when you are in a calm state.

2. remember that your side has done bad things... apologise for those bad things, and offer compensation.

NOTE:once you apologize for what you've done wrong the other side can no longer use it to justify their bad actions.

3. tell the other side, in an UNEMOTIONAL scientific tone, you did X to me and that has upset me.

NOTE: dont use an emotionally charged word like: "you arrogantly bulldozed my house and massacred my children." just say calmly say "you bulldozed my house, and killed my children".

4.1. If they apologize accept the apology immediately without further talk and ask politely for a reasonable compensation.

4.2. If they do not apologise after you've done all the previous things correctly, give them a week to apologize, if they do not do so, kill them and their families, eat their livers, use their skulls as trophies and its totally ok with me.--Esmehwk 06:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV/Vandalism

There's a fine line between A Neutral Point of View and Vandalism, I know most people here toe the line but there's alot of hit-and-run edits to express their own political veiws etc and for once there's a decent article on this group so I'm suggesting this article be Vandal proof

International community does not recognize 'state terrorism'

Ruchiraw I have asked repeatedly for you to show me evidence that human rights violations by a state actor do not consititute state terrorism, I have given you ample citations why in fact it does, however despite you not providing any evidence you continue to vandalise the article. I say vandalised since despite repeated requests you continue to redo your changes, thus it is no longer in good faith but vandalism. So I am asking you again provide some proof here. For the time being I have added a disclaimer.--Realstarslayer 16:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

What may seem like state terrorsim to you may not be recognised as state terrorism by independent sourcesRuchiraw 16:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Trincomanb it seems you changed the intro before I could add the disclaimer, any how please hold off the changes until we can solve this issue.

Ruchiraw, if you insist on including 'or state terrorism' then the following must also be included:

:However, it can be argued that human rights abuses by a state or their proxies can in fact be considered as acts of state terrorism [32].

--Realstarslayer 16:07, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said who else other than the LTTE supports this charge Ruchiraw 16:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

::: That is my point, I just gave you one example above, which is not from the LTTE that state human rights violations can be considered acts of state terrorism. BTW there are many non LTTE Tamils who also see things this way, unless you wish to lable all Tamils who take offence to GoSL abuses as LTTE?--Realstarslayer 17:39, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't realize you were editing, while I was about to neutralize the POV vandalism that has been going on. Please go ahead and/modify as you see fit. Trincomanb 16:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Someone has removed part of the meaning of the intro which I will correctRuchiraw 16:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

We are continously seeing drive-by POV vandalism from one user who is acting in bad faith. Trincomanb 16:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I am mentioning that some users such as Trincoman are constantly neutralising attempts to make this intro NPOV. I am proving my good faith by listing this page for mediation. Ruchiraw 17:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

::::: You can't go for mediation until the RfC process has been tried, I have already nominated it for RfC, as you see above.--Realstarslayer 17:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Karuna and the GoSL

Ruchiraw before you get all upset with my edit, here is a direct quote from the SLMM Geneva report:

:There are a number of indications that the GOSL is actively supporting the Karuna group. Known Karuna supporters have been seen moving to and from SLA camps, and it is evident that the security forces and police in some areas are not taking action to prevent armed elements from operating.

SLMM Geneva Report

--Realstarslayer 18:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Rename Article to - GoSL Description of the LTTE

A read of the intro as it stands now shows that this article has become a sad joke thanks to the efforts of a few users, let's just rename it the GoSL description of the LTTE and be done with it, I don't think I am going to bother contributing to this article any more since the so called attemtps at NPOV editing have become a laughable farce. So have fun whomever is left still working on this.--Realstarslayer 19:00, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I had precisely warned that this would happen, but no preventative actions were taken and some users maintain (the one that has gone on holiday) that the article is going in the right direction. What a real farce! Trincomanb 19:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Noncompliance

Until people become more co-operative, this article will continue to go to the dogs. So be it. I have added a message that this article is not compliant with Wikipedia's policies. These are the issues where it is not compliant:

• The introduction is not written from a Neutral Point of View. It is very clearly written on the assumption that the LTTE is a terrorist organisation. That may be your opinion but it is not how articles on Wikipedia should be written.
• It includes material which is unverifiable. For example nobody knows how many Muslims and what propotion of Tamils live in LTTE territory because the LTTE has not done a census. The same it ture for a lot of the terrorist attacks blamed on the LTTE. In some cases like Rajiv Gandhi an official enquirey has established that it was LTTE's responsibility but in most other cases it is just an allegation. We may be convinced of things but it has not been objectively proved.
• Everybody is using this as a soapbox to list their favourite grievances against the other side. The introduction is completely filled with allegations, which has made it just propoganda. This is the real reason it violates the NPOV policy. Just because you say you have included propoganda from both sides the article doesn't become neutral. The only way to make it neutral is to remove all propoganda for all sides. This is what things were like two weeks ago, but with the attitudes now I don't think it will be possible to agree on a propoganda-free article. -- Ponnampalam 19:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Protection

I have protected this page due to ongoing disputes and edit wars. Please use this talk page to discuss issues at hand, and once you have reached some sort of consensus, list it on WP:RFPP or drop me a line on my talk page. Stifle (talk) 23:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Protection - timetable for resolution

Can I suggest the following way forward:

• We work on a revised introduction on this talk page.
• We give ourselves a definite period of time (I suggest five days) to arrive at a wording that everyone can live with.
• If we are unable to achieve a consensus within that timeframe, we seek mediation.

Is this something everyone is happy with? -- Arvind 23:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. But with the size of this page and everone writing things all over the place its hard to figure out what the propoosed intro actually is. So we should also agree on one fixed place we can discuss this.

Also, VERY IMPORTANT, I suggest we stay away from personnal attacks and stick to discussing the article only. --snowolfD4^{( talk / @ )} 10:49, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Introduction - discussion

Here is the introduction as it stood before the edit wars began which, in my opinion, is the best place to start working again. This is because this way, we avoid getting bogged down in the history of the recent disagreements:

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), also known as the Tamil Tigers, is a military and political organization that has waged a violent secessionist campaign against the Sri Lankan Government since the 1970s in order to secure independence for the Tamil region of Sri Lanka. The LTTE is primarily a military organisation, consisting of an army, a navy and a recently created air wing, but it also exercises civilian functions -- legislative, judicial, police and cultural -- in the territory it controls, even though those areas remain dependent on the central government for some essentials.

The LTTE is headed by its reclusive founder, Velupillai Prabhakaran. It accuses the Sri Lankan government of orchestrating ethnic cleansing and genocide against its Tamil minority, and proclaims itself as the sole representative and protector of Sri Lankan Tamils. It is generally seen as being the main body with whom the government must negotiate in the long-running conflict — particularly as many rival Tamil voices have been silenced or eliminated by LTTE action. Furthermore, its tactics, notably its treatment and killings of non-Tamil civilians and Tamil political opponents, have drawn sharp criticism internationally and led to it being proscribed as a terrorist organisation by a number of countries.

I think the best way forward is to start by figuring out exactly what the problem with this formulation is. So, could I ask everyone who has an issue with this wording to specifically list each of their problems in the relevant section below, using bullet points? If you think the introduction is not NPOV because it is pro-LTTE, please list your issues under the first heading. If you think it is not NPOV because it is pro-GoSL, please list your issues under the second heading. If you particularly want to point out things that make the introduction balanced, please point them out under the third heading. Could I please request that we not start discussing whether we agree or disagree with points raised by others here as yet. Let's just start by letting each side list their points, and refrain from stating agreement or disagreement for the moment, and move on to discussing the issues once this has been done. I strongly feel it will be more productive to discuss the issues once we've given everyone the time to make the points they want to. -- Arvind 23:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The introduction is not NPOV and favours the LTTE

• your point here

• Ruchiraw's comments

• genocide and state terrorism - This is an accusation only by the LTTE made in inflammatory language and should not be treated in the introduction. Tell me , why should we only mention claims made by the LTTE .I thought the main purpose of the LTTE is independence for tamils. That is covered . The stuff about genocide, sole representative, state terrorism are LTTE claims. If so , all accusations against the LTTE by the UN and international community should also be treated in the intro Ruchiraw 01:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

and state terrorism. There are not accusations supported by anyone except the LTTE. Dont try ot make this a question of what GoSL and LTTE said. Look at the facts as well. Otherwise the intro will be too bloated. Ruchiraw 01:32, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• and proclaims itself as the sole representative and protector of Sri Lankan Tamils. - Not acknowledged by anyone Ruchiraw 01:35, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• Furthermore, its tactics, notably its treatment and killings of non-Tamil civilians and Tamil political opponents, have drawn sharp criticism internationally and led to it being proscribed as a terrorist organisation by a number of countries.-- This is tucked away at the bottom as an afterthought. It should be with first paragraph as thats where examine teh nature of the LTTE. You cannot ignore teh opinion of one fourth of the worlds population and the UN bcos u dont like it. Please see http://www.dfat.gov.au/icat/persons_entities/2_proscribed_entities_10dec2001.html to see how UN resolutions oblige its member countries to proscribe the LTTE Ruchiraw 01:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The introduction is not NPOV and favours the GoSL

• your point here

• Sharz's comments

• Well in your template lies a fundemental differing point, why should the fact that they're cosidered terrorist by some be in the opening at all? shouldn't it have it's own section of the article? -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sharz (talk • contribs)

The introduction is balanced

• your point here

• Realstarslayer's comments

Arvind, against my better judgment, out of respect for your efforts to try and salvage this article I will take part at least in this much:

• The intro tells us who the LTTE are.
• Tells us that while they conduct some civilian functions they are dependant on the GoSL for others.
• It tells us their claims, again their claims which does not imply that it is fact or not fact.
• It tells us why they are considered terrorists by some.

Thus I consider this to be balanced because it gives us the major arguments of both sides without a judgmental tone towards either. If additions are to be made to the accusations presented in the intro it must maintain this same neutral tone. --Realstarslayer 00:24, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The introduction needs improvement

your point here

• snowolfD4's comments

I wouldn't say the intro is entirely NPOV, but I think it needs some improvements.

• change "in order to secure independence for the Tamil region of Sri Lanka" to "in order to secure independence for the Tamil region in the North and East of Sri Lanka" - It will make things clearer to anyone who isn't perfectly familiar with the topic.
• change " it also exercises civilian functions" to " it also exercises some civilian functions" - I think this was agreed on about a week ago.
• remove " It accuses the Sri Lankan government of orchestrating ethnic cleansing and genocide against its Tamil minority" - for three reasons. One, the LTTE didn't make allegations of genocide etc. when it started the war. Its main objective is independence, and this is stated in the 1st paragraph. Two, if you do include these allegations, something in the line of "the government rejects these allegations and they're not supported by intl. community" should also be included. Three, If you keep these allegations by the LTTE you will also need to add allegations such as child recruitment, ethnic cleansing etc. against the LTTE.
• completely change " Furthermore, its tactics, notably its treatment and killings of non-Tamil civilians and Tamil political opponents, have drawn sharp criticism internationally and led to it being proscribed as a terrorist organisation by a number of countries.". First make it a new paragraph, then change it to "The LTTE has been repeatedly accused of using terrorism and violating human rights, and is currently banned as a terrorist organisation in a number of countries including The United States, The European Union, India and Canada. (see full List)."
• Therefore, the early draft of my proposed intro reads as

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), also known as the Tamil Tigers, is a military and political organization that has waged a violent secessionist campaign against the Sri Lankan Government since the 1970s in order to secure independence for the Tamil region in the North and East of Sri Lanka. The LTTE is primarily a military organisation, consisting of an army, a navy and a recently created air wing, but it also exercises some civilian functions -- legislative, judicial, police and cultural -- in the territory it controls, even though those areas remain dependent on the central government for some essentials.

The LTTE is headed by its reclusive founder, Velupillai Prabhakaran. It proclaims itself to be the sole representative and protector of Sri Lankan Tamils. It is generally seen as being the main body with whom the government must negotiate with to end the long-running conflict — particularly as many rival Tamil voices have been silenced or eliminated by the LTTE.

The LTTE has been repeatedly accused of using terrorism and violating human rights, and is currently banned as a terrorist organisation in a number of countries including The United States, The European Union, India and Canada (see full List).

• It's not perfect, so suggestions are welcome. --snowolfD4^{( talk / @ )} 10:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• Oh yeah one more thing. If you ask most people around the world what the LTTE is famous for they'll say "Suicide Bombings". Its their trademark. So I think that should also be included somewhere in the intro cos it's pretty important.. --snowolfD4^{( talk / @ )} 11:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Snowolfd4, If this part is there It proclaims itself to be the sole representative and protector of Sri Lankan Tamils. , we need to mention that

The international community and Sri Lanka do not accept the LTTE's claim to be the sole representative and protector of Sri Lankan TamilsRuchiraw 12:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

But I still think as an encyclopedia Wikipedia should specifically not carry claims by either party in the intro. Instead it is better to mention facts. Also the third para(terrorist ban) shoudl be included in the first para(military/political) as is done with all other contentious organisations such as Hezbollah. I suggest everyone reads the intro to hezbollah and Al Quaeda which are well balanced and not even tagged as POV. Even Islamic parties , Americans and Jewish people have come up with an NPOV intro and we shoudl be able to do so too [User:Ruchiraw|Ruchiraw]] 12:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Introduction Discussion Aug 5 onward

Unfortunately it seems I am proven right in my misgivings, the same user partially responsible for the complete breakdown of this article cannot even contain his venom and follow simple instructions to just state his points and not debate anything here, how can anyone work towards a consensus with someone so obviously hostile to any debate or any form of consensus opposed to his POV --Realstarslayer 02:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC).

Realstarslayer, lets set some base rules here. Are we going to mention claims made by GoSL or LTTE. Either yes or no. Why only admit claims made by the LTTE and ignore comments by the UN, Amnesty, HRW, US, EU , Canada, India, Australia , Singapore etc:-. This is teh fundamental point to reach consensus on and it must be justifiable. Ruchiraw 03:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

First I see you removed your comments above, thank you for that, but I did not want you to remove them completely just post them somewhere else so we can leave the section above only for points for/against/or neutral. Now I have explained my view on this numerous times before, we state the LTTE claims that they are fighting because they feel there has been genocide or state terrorism against Tamils, again note this statement only tells us that they claim so, not that what they say is fact. Likewise we also state that they are banned as terrorists because they have committed human rights abuses, killings etc and this is why the GoSL is fighting them, so I am not sure why you think there is no balance? The LTTE and the GoSL are the two parties to this conflict, other countries added the LTTE to terrorist lists at the instigation of the GoSL, thus the GoSL view is sufficient to represent the views of these other 3rd parties in the introduction. If we want to add each and every claim for both sides in the intro we end up with the mess that is there right now. Those things should be and are covered in the main body of the article, if you just scroll down to the 'terror' section I think it is pretty clear about all the charges against the LTTE. As I said I have repeated this explanation to you on many occasions so this will be the last time I do so. So I have stated my views above, let everyone else comment and then that will be that.--Realstarslayer 03:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

You have got my point. This intro focuses too much on what teh LTTE claims rather than about what the LTTE has actually done. LTTE's main aim is Tamil Eelam which is already covered in the intro as

The Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), also known as the Tamil Tigers, is a military and political organization that has waged a violent secessionist campaign against the Sri Lankan Government since the 1970s in order to secure independence for the Tamil region of Sri Lanka.

The other claims are beside the point.LTTE is fighting for tamil independence and thats clear and does belong in the intro . As to what it accuses teh government of , this may belong in the section on origin of LTTE where it can be discussed. There are many claims the LTTE have made over 20 years to justify their war. As I said dont put accusations or claims here. Just leave the bare facts and we can work the accusations into the rest of the article.

I believe most countries have added the LTTE because of the suicide bombings, child soldier recruitment and civilian massacres. if we are going to details such as LTTE motivations for starting their struggle , we will need to expand why they are considered terrorist by many countries as this gives a fuller view of the LTTE, motivations and actions. Ruchiraw 03:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Irrelevant Bias Infomation

29 countries (see list) have proscribed the LTTE as a terrorist group, although 161 countries including UN have not declared this organization a terrorist group. The Sri Lankan government (ranked 25th in the failed state index [2] and relies on child sex tourism to generate some of its foreign currency [3] ) and pro-government countries that need satisfaction from child-sex tourism have accused the group of crimes against humanity [4], ethnic cleansing[5], carrying out over half of all suicide bombing attacks in the world between 1980-2000[6], narco-terrorism[7], organised crime[8], extortion targeting Tamil expatriates First off, I checked the source for 'organized crime' the source itself seems to be about a group of Tamils in Organized crime that ALSO support the Tamil Tigers, there's no real correlation Secondly 'failed state index' besides the fact that Jarred Diamond (Guns, Germs and Steel) has cited Sri Lanka as a nation that will grow rapidly whence peace has been acheived due to natural positioning etc, The failed state referance AND the child sex tourism to generate SOME of its foreign currency is irrelevant to the arguement and is close to flaming.

Also still uses acts of terrorism in an attempt to create an authoritarian mono-ethnic state[27]. Although the Sri Lankan itself has lifted the ban on the LTTE. Mono-ethinic? this can easily be refuted, seeing as many of the leadership of the Tamil Tigers are Tamil Christians. It seems this entire article to reach a neutral point, just swings to the tamil side, then swings back to the Sri Lankan goverments side again to balance it out. --Sharz 01:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Answers to Ulflarsen's questions to me

Havent got any resoponse from you so I thought of moving this topic here as the older topic is archived and also you might have missed it as user Realstarslayer have replied for them. I want to know if you read my comments already and ignored them...---RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

We seem to have a problem with the name of the LTTE's leader. Is it Prabhakaran or Prabakharan? The Wikipedia article about the man himself uses the former (but there is a redirect from the latter). We have both forms at various points in the LTTE article itself. I know very little about the conventions of transliterating from Tamil, but maybe somebody can give us a definitive answer? Credmond 01:10, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

In Tamilnet he is mentioned as Velupillai Pirapaharan [33]. In the SLMM website intro to the CFA he is called Velupillai Prabhakaran [34]. BBC uses Velupillai Prabhakaran [35] Ulflarsen 05:14, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Traditionally, Tamil names of Sanskrit origin were transcribed into English based on their Sanskrit form. Under this system, his name would be "Prabhakaran". Some nationalists have begun transcribing them into English based on the way they are written in Tamil. That makes it Pirapaharan. Prabhakaran is the most commonly used form, so it's the one this article should use. -- Arvind 21:44, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

• You seems to have a problem not only in your leaders name but every detail in this artical.How sure are you that its not "Osama Bin Laden"?--RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Prabhakaran is not my leader. Regarding the article - if you believe it is full of information that is not correct then please forward evidence regarding that, But a lot of the disagreement here connects to various POV (point of view), like labeling the LTTE a terrorist organisation. Even though the LTTE is banned by around 30 countries it does not mean it fits the label. One side is that it is not banned by Sri Lanka itself - as the government's view is that it needs to deal with it. Neither is it on the UN list of terrorist organisations. Last but not least, the LTTE still have a significant support from tamils, both within and outside Sri Lanka.

On the other side, the LTTE has a lot to answer for - and the most vital info regarding that is listed in the article, even information that LTTE supporters do not like to hear (child subscription, murder of Gandhi, forced contributions etc). But still it is in the article, as it shows how the LTTE operates in a manner that is often against human rights. So again - please come forward with your ideas, critique etc so the article can be improved. Ulflarsen 16:15, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

If you look at the talk page this is argued by many users over and over agin pointing out the evidence! It is pointless for me to repeat them again as you have a history of argiung with what you belive is true, wich is POV. "sigh" "the aim of Wikipedia is to produce articles that are as correct as possible, with a focus on neutral point of view - NPOV".you are certainly not honoring this! Wikipedia is a Encyclopedia which propel on facts and not a news media.I hope you will keep this in mind. RavenS 16:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

That a statement has been repeated over and over again does not mean it is true. A lot of the evidence you mention above is just that. Again, if you can forward proof that the LTTE is a terror organisation, like Al-Qaeda I will support you in stating that in the article. The problem is however that there are rather wide differences between the two. Al-Qaeda is actively supressed by US, EU and other countries, while the ban on LTTE more serves to deny the organisation money and to cajole it back to negotiations.

What about Sri Lanka not banning the LTTE? What about that neither EU, India, USA or Japan sends soldiers to Sri Lanka to exterminate the LTTE? Could it have something to do with that the LTTE for sure is a organisation that use terror, but not has terror as its sole aim - as Al-Qaeda and other such organisation seems to have... Or does the fact that Sri Lanka do not ban the LTTE has a connection with that the government knows (as it has repeatedly been told by its foreign supporters, India, EU, USA and Japan), that the current political system in Sri Lanka is not fair - and needs to be changed - so that the LTTE is not the problem itself, but the symptom [36]? When the current president of Sri Lanka, Mahinda Rajapakse does not ban the LTTE as a terrorist organisation - does that mean that he is a supporter of terrorism? Or not a true Sri Lankan patriot - or both? It is very easy to say this and that - but we try to build Wikipedia on facts, so please engage in that. Ulflarsen 17:17, 12 July 2006 (UTC

• LTTE was a banned rebel group in Sri lanka till 2002. Due to the Cease-fire the ban on them was taken off. It probably will be re-imposed very soon.-RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I doubt that, if the GoSL wants to have even some semblance of being for peace, since you obviously cannot negotiate with a party that you have just banned, which was the original reason for the lifting of the ban.

• The GOSL have not pleaded for that kind of a help from any of the organizations or countries yet. GOSL still thinks that this is a internal civil issue that can be sorted out internally where they are dead wrong. Your suggestion of getting help from a military of a 3rd country would be the best choice for GOSL now. Peace talks with the LTTE is a laugh!-RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I try to keep abreast of both sides of the issue and a quick read of Lankaweb, which is made up of JVP and JHU type supporters will always show some editorial or opinion peace where they would like to see foreign military involvement, I admit it is conjecture to assume the GoSL also wants this, but many of the hawks in the GoSL are of the same mindset as those found on Lankaweb.

• There is no similarity with Al-Qaeda and LTTE??? Are you serious here ulflarsen?? Though the LTTE did not invent the terror practice like suicide bombing (that honor goes to Hezbollah) they did perfect it. No terrorist group in the world have mastered suicide bombing like the LTTE and that’s a fact!--RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no similarity, since as Ulf noted above the LTTE are the symptom of the disease. Also no one is negotiating with AQ and no one has a CFA with them either, these things came about because of ground realities, the CFA came about because the GoSL was unable to militarily defeat the LTTE and vice versa, the LTTE also held on to significant areas of land with support from a majority of the populace in those areas, all great differences when compared to AQ.

   "Prabhakaran came to the conclusion that a group, which was faced with an enemy having overwhelming military superiority, could inflict maximum damage at minimum cost only through the deployment of suicide bombers." 

Are you aware of this or willing to deny that as well? - Or does it sound familiar? It should.!!! It is the same excuse used by supporters of Hezbollah, Hamas, Al-Qaeda, etc. I am even surprised that you raised a question like this!!!!

I don't think anyone is denying this, this is the stated fact so I'm not sure what your point is, sucide bombers are used to balance the greater military might of the GoSL.

The point was to show UlfLarsen the similarity between the LTTE, Hezbollah and other terrorist groups.--RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• If the current political system is not fare, the solution is to change the government! Genocide of Sinhala people is not going to work. Plus GOSL invites the LTTE to come forward as a democratic party, they can very well use this offer and change the government byt they boy cot it! have you raised the question as to why? Well the answer is very simple because they are terrorists! By what the LTTE have done so far the tamil people themselves have lost faith in the LTTE and does not accept the LTTE as a responsible political leader. The LTTE now has no option but to keep fighting.-RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Now this is laughable, the Tamils had no say in the GoSL even before the LTTE, since the Sinhala majority created an environment where they could perpetuate control over the government and laws of the land, this is fact not opinion [37]. This is what the international community refers to as the need for drastic political changes, this can only be done by the government in power, the Tamils do not have enough political power to enact any changes, this was seen clearly in even trying to get minor deals such as P-TOMS passed.

• Yeah its very easy to say this and that by being out of Sri Lanka, like you and me. Go there and see the real picture. Go to the poor villages like vavunia and ampara and many other places that the LTTE have murdered civilians and ask those people what the LTTE do.--RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I could ask you the same thing, I'm pretty sure the hundreds of thousands of Tamil civilians living as IDPs are not having a rosey time of it either. Besides Ulf has actually been there, a claim that I cannot make and it seems you neither, so going by your own statement we should take his word over yours.

• LTTE is a terrorist group, they use suicide bombing, they kill innocent civilians, they use axes and swards to kill innocent people are all facts. They practice sporadical mass murders like Pettah bombing, Dehiwala train bombing and frequent innocent civilian murders and genocide of Sinhala which they deny! Proof - right there’s no proof, because the LTTE are the masters of liars as well. At least Osama Bin Laden makes a clean breast that he will kill all Americans and drain our money. But the LTTE denies what they do, makes up stories and maneuvers the listeners and readers to get the sympathy of the international community and the support of the entire Tamil family which I feel is an extremely cowardly act. Wikipedia is based on facts not fantasies, sadly its not honored here. It is surprising to know that the wikipedia editors are closing their eyes on this by allowing deviation to their policies!!!-----RavenS 02:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

And this is your POV and you are perfectly entitled to it, however you cannot use that as the basis for a factual encyclopedia. Responses in-line by me.--Realstarslayer 03:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Realstarlayer, this is not my POV they are facts:

• LTTE is a terrorist group is a fact (www.satp.org) (MIPT Terrorism Knowledge Base) (Infoplease)
• LTTE have mastered and execute suicide bombing and rates at no. one in suicide bombers is a fact (Hindustan) (www.satp.org) (www.satp.org)
• LTTE kills political leaders is a fact (www.spur.asn.au) (2)
• LTTE kill innocent civilians is a fact (asiantribune) (yahoo news)
• LTTE implement mass murders in civilised areas is a fact (asiantribune) (2) (3)
• LTTE lie, is a fact (Hindustan) (2)

I guess this would be disputed as well -- RavenS 05:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I enjoyed your comments but my response was for Ulf Larsen and his questions to me! I await his response. By the way are you the same person??? I realized that users in this page are playing games with two three user names?---RavenS 04:10, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes I realize they were for Ulf, but I wanted to address some of them myself. I'm sure he will reply as well if he wants to. Also what do you mean am I the same user? You mean Ulf? No I am not obviously??? Also not sure what you mean about users playing games with names? I know there have been a few anonymous users doing silly things but everyone else is who they say they are?--Realstarslayer 05:19, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

O.K. one more time.If you look at the talk page this is argued by many users over and over agin pointing out the evidence! (Stating and arguing are two different things). So it is pointless for me to repeat them again as YOU have a history of argiung with what YOU belive is true, which is POV. "sigh" "the aim of Wikipedia is to produce articles that are as correct as possible, with a focus on neutral point of view - NPOV".you are certainly not honoring this! Wikipedia is a Encyclopedia which propel on facts and not a news media.I hope you will keep this in mind. RavenS 16:43, 12 July 2006 (UTC

I asked you several questions and you dont seem to bother to answer them. So one more time, why is LTTE not banned by Sri Lanka? How come president Mahinda Rajapakse still want to discuss with what you call a terrorist organisation? What about the departing US ambassador's comments - as I left a link above? And what about all the information in the article regarding facts that are negative to the LTTE? Does that have any value? Does that help to give a NPOV article? I challenge you to engage in this article - to develop it! Ulflarsen 20:39, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

ulflarsen, I have added the comments to your questions, If your challenging me to engage in this artical you have to have a NPOV 1st. Whithout you having that dont invite others to join in as a team. Because that a waist of their time since you keep reverting them to what you feel like is true or beleiving what you are being told. ( probably by your friends Vadakkan aka Arvind, Super-Real star layer , etc - this was a assumption now) One last question - Do you have any Sinhala friends?-----RavenS 02:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear RavenS you are not adding much credibility to your accusations by your behaviour, baseless attacks against Mr. Larsen and ‘drive by’ critiques of the article certainly do not display a NPOV on your part. If you feel there is something wrong with the article please point them out and offer your corrections with facts to back them up. If you cannot then it seems rather hypocritical for you to be going on about NPOV. As for earlier discussion here if you read them all you will see that all questions have been answered with appropriate facts and changes that were required have been made with no favoritism being displayed for one side or the other. --Realstarslayer 04:04, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Comments added ----RavenS 02:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

User:RavenS is NOT User:RaveenS. Looks like an attempt at user name misuse. RaveenS 20:11, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

You have a goofy imagination!My name is Raven Sears. Born to a American father and a Sri lankan mother.Do you have a problem with that? Besides this is the 1st time I've seen Raven spelled with 2 E's. You should check the spellings of you name-----RavenS 02:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Request for editprotected

The following sentence in the introduction states that Janes defence weekly, Amnesty International , HRW, Canada, US , EU, India and the UN have accused the LTTE of certain wrongs because they need satisfaction from child-sex tourism

pro-government countries that need satisfaction from child-sex tourism have accused the group of crimes against humanity [4], ethnic cleansing[5], carrying out over half of all suicide bombing attacks in the world between 1980-2000[6], narco-terrorism[7], organised crime[8], extortion targeting Tamil expatriates[9], civilian massacres and bombings (resulting in cumulative death toll of thousands of civilians) and assassination of elected politicians.

As it is not cited and plainly a libel, someone may want to consider removing the words ( that need satisfaction from child-sex tourism) as it implies that the governments of 1.5 billion people want to keep Sri Lanka as a haven for child sex tourism. Ruchiraw 13:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Also the words (relies on child sex tourism to generate some of its foreign currency) in the following sentence in the intro is not supported by its citation and is a libel placed by a vandal

The Sri Lankan government (ranked 25th in the failed state index [2] and relies on child sex tourism to generate some of its foreign currency Ruchiraw 13:48, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There is a whole lot of slander and libel stuff in the intro as it stands. This is both against the LTTE and the government. Although the above user is selectively picking out slanderous stuff about the Sri Lankan govt., he doesn't make any reference slanderous accusation made against the opposing side, because it was he who had inserted them. Accusations of LTTE involved in organized crime, as pointed out by one user above is a case and point. THe LTTE involved in organized crime is about a bunch of Tamil who happen to be supporters of the Tigers. The user I think is trying to imply if a person is Tamil and LTTE supporter, then that person is part of the LTTE etc. Citation trying to link LTTE to drug smuggling is another farce [38]. It was an accusation made by personnel from the US Drug Enforcement agency on their own accord to a political hearing, although there was no evidence shown to back this up. According to the law in LTTE administered areas, if person is charged and found guilty of drug usage and smuggling in a court of law, the punishment is death (as is the case in countries such as Malaysia, Singapore). If this user insists on this, this not based on stated facts but hear ( a slippery slope for an encyclopedia) say which is given undue prominence and merely dressing up his SL Govt. POV.

I would urge the admin to maintain the protection on this page and not allow any changes, until we have a fair, balanced intro that is not a propaganda piece for the govt. side and that gains the consensus of all users acting in good faith. Trincomanb 16:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

TrincomanB , I have too much respect for the RCMP to argue with their findings . See teh following para from their report which has been cited in the intro

Almost every terrorist group in the world today is involved in organized crime. Almost all terrorist groups around the world use organized crime to pay for their operations.Sri Lanka's Tamil Tigers have also used proceeds of crime to finance politically motivated violence."It's one of the reasons we took steps and initiatives against the Tamil Tigers to protect, certainly, the good people in the Tamil community and all Canadians," said Day. "It's happening. We are aware of it. And our law enforcement and security people are, let's just say, keeping track of it and minimizing the risk.Ruchiraw 23:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There are no references to child sex tourism as a foreign currency earner for Sri Lanka in the citation specified in the intro. If you remember the LTTE is still detaining Sri lankan officers who went to arrest a British pedophile. Pedophiles receive 5-20 years jail term in Sri Lanka according to the citation in the intro itself. Nothing about revenue generation from child sex at the citation in the intro.Ruchiraw 23:26, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I am in agreement. I wwanted to edit the statement about "relies on child sex tourism" because it was unsupported and it seems inflamatory. --Blue Tie 22:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)