Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Arcade/Archive 1

To-do list

• Design a standard {{template}} for all arcade game articles (see discussion 1 and 2)

• Create article for the games designer Yoshiki Okamoto
• Create article for the games company Centuri
• Create article for the games company Cinematronics

• Find a uniform postfix for ambigous titles, and rename those that do not follow the rule. Right now we have "(game)", "(video game)" and "(arcade game)". I think "(arcade game)" is the best one. (see discussion)

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Game lists (with/without infobox, stubs etc)

These lists are now on the page Wikipedia:WikiProject_Arcade_Games/lists.

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Comments

Changes to infobox

I made a minor change to the Pac-Man and Altered Beast info-boxes by changing the image from a thumb to a 225 px image. This is the standard way of displaying album covers for album infoboxes and I think it looks better. However, if you disagree then please feel free to revert my changes. I also created an infobox for Space Invaders. --ChicXulub 17:13, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Looks good, BTW maybe we need a list of all articles with infoboxes(or is there a list somewhere?), as long as not all arcade games have one and they dont use a template. --Tjansen 18:01, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think the 225px markup looks better. I hated the framed image I had in the infobox, but didn't have time to investigate on how to change it. Thanks for fixing it. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:10, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

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Optional lines

should either Developer or Publisher be optional, if we have game designer? 138.89.183.70 20:17, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The game designer is the person, the developer is the company. so there's at least a difference --Tjansen 20:19, 15 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Ditto to Tjansen. The terms are sometimes used interchangibly, so it can be confusing. The way we use it, we mean the game designer as a person. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 15:10, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

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Using MAME to get screenshots

All of the screenshots I take using MAME seem to be about 4K in size. Any idea what I'm doing wrong? --ChicXulub 18:23, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

4K as in 4kB? That's not much .. but since you didnt say which OS and how you do them... I made all screenshots with Gimp (Linux).

--Tjansen 18:44, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'm using Windows 98 and I take the screenshots by pressing the F12 key. --ChicXulub 18:51, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You're using F12 from MAME, no doubt. 4K is not much, but look at the format you're using. For a game with complex graphics, like Mortal Kombat, you'll want to save it in JPEG format. It's lossy, but its the only acceptible format Wikipedia can use for photo-like images. If you have a simple graphic, such as a screengrab from Burgertime, you'll want to save it as a PNG. The resulting PNG file will be crisper and smaller than the corresponding JPEG file. PNG is compressed, but is only suitable for images with few colors, because of the way it compresses images. I think you can also use GIF images, but PNG and JPEG will be smaller. HTH. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:01, Aug 17, 2004 (UTC)

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Naming of articles

First off, I'd like to say that this project seems to have really taken off and I appreciate everyone's help. Some contributors have done a lot more work than I have!

Next, I'd like to suggest that we name any new articles in an unambiguous manner. There are a lot of articles named [[Cool game (game)|Cool game]]. While, when the article was created there was no other entry for "Cool game," a board game or some other type of game may come along and result in a clash. We can't depend on that later editor to correctly move it to [[Cool game (arcade game)]]. Therefore, I suggest when you find an article named [[Cool game (game)]], you move it to [[Cool game (arcade game)]]. Most arcade games, such as Galaxian don't need the suffix since the words are unique and are unlikely to be supplanted in the future. This convention only applies to games that have names that may result in a clash. For example, I just changed the article name for Reactor from [[Reactor (game)]] to [[Reactor (arcade game)]].

I think this should apply to video and computer games as well that began as arcade games. If there are no objections to this, I'll post the policy in the main project page in the near future. Comments? — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:13, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

I think (game) would be better since many of the arcade games have ports to various other platforms and the articles are not specific enough to warrant the title of arcade game -- 00:25, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Right now, some are not specific enough. But then they should either be rewritten to describe the arcade version (assuming that it's the original), or be splitted into two seperate articles--Tjansen 18:34, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

As I stated, I prefer (arcade game). The other versions, which could be computer games or video games, can have their own articles. (game) is just way too ambiguous. The problem is, we don't have a term that describes video, arcade and computer games under one, unifying term. "Video game," according to Wikipedia, refers to games played on video game consoles. "Computer game" refers to those played on home computers. "Arcade game" refers to what this project is about, games played in an arcade.

So, I suggest we do what Tjansen suggested and make the articles about the arcade versions. Then, if it warrants it, break it into two articles, one with (arcade game) and the other with (video game). How does that sound? — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:56, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

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Standard template

The problem with the template is that templates cannot contain optional parameters or contain conditional sections. We would at least need two templates (with and without picture) and maybe even four (with and without game designer). Or we could wait and hope that it will be possible in a future version.--Tjansen 18:34, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think you're confusing "template" with "infobox." We have an infobox, which editors can edit to their liking and/or needs. A template is something that is stamped on every arcade game article (such as at the bottom of this article). I couldn't think of one that would suit every arcade game, so that's why I opened it up for discussion. :-) It's possible that arcade games just aren't well-suited for this feature. And that's fine; I'd like to design one only if it makes sense for this subject. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:56, Aug 19, 2004 (UTC)

I was talking about an infobox template. Didnt know that you meant a footer template. --Tjansen 21:28, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Cool! I didn't know we could make one template and insert it in several articles with parameters. I was talking about a footer template, but this looks like a great approach for our infobox templates. It looks like we're approaching it correctly--testing it out as a static infobox first. But it looks like the title section should be bold instead of italicized. Should we use these parametized templates (I didn't read the whole page, but it sounds like a good idea). It sure would save a lot of time and could be updated as we saw fit. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:29, Aug 20, 2004 (UTC)

I have created a template at Template:Infobox_Arcade_Game and converted Super Sprint. The syntax is shown on Template_talk:Infobox_Arcade_Game. I am not happy with the image parameter yet. And some parameter names are longer than desirable, because you can't use a parameter name if there is a template of the same name. For instance 'cabinet' and 'date' were already taken... --Tjansen 11:58, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think it looks great, but it sure does have a lot of parameters! I guess there is no way around that, though. Should we promote it to the main project page or do you have some more tweaking to do? — Frecklefoot | Talk 01:40, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

The template itself is finished, but it can't be used for arcade games without screenshot, and the designer field can't be empty be either. There is no way around it, except creating new templates for these cases or waiting for the Extended template syntax --Tjansen 16:27, 7 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Lets wait then since a lot of games we missing screenshots for many games and don't know who the designers were for most. — Frecklefoot | Talk 19:09, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

Genre

I had a few problems with Computer_and_video_game_genres: Which genre is Contra (arcade games)? There is no shoot'n'run genre, and I couldnt find any such game in the examples. I also had problems finding a genre for Arkanoid.--Tjansen 17:01, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Contra is a Scrolling shooter. I made a change to the article to reflect that. I'd call Arkanoid a retro game or a fixed shooter or a sports game. Gosh that is a tough one, isn't it? I've never really had to think what kind of genre that game is, since you're really playing against yourself (trying not to miss the ball). A skill game (new category!)? — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:49, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

To stick my nose in, Arkanoid is just one of many Pong-based games. Perhaps the genre listing for it should reflect this. ~ FriedMilk 21:05, 2004 Sep 3 (UTC)

While I think it contains some elements reminiscent of Pong, I don't think it is fairly characterized as a Pong-based game. What genre is Pong? It is certainly meant to be reminscent of Ping Pong, but does that make it a sport game? — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:15, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps I should be more clear, and call it a Breakout clone, like Alleyway and a million online variations. ~ FriedMilk 21:18, 2004 Sep 3 (UTC)

But there is no genre for Pong or Breakout either (except Retro, but that doesnt help for new games). Basically I like skill game, but on the other hand, I don't know any other skill game that is not Breakout-related--Tjansen 12:13, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think Ball and Paddle game would work, as that covers Pong,Breakout and its clones. That's what KLOV uses for Breakout, and a google search gets about 7000 hits. I'm not keen on retro, as that doesn't cover more recent variants, or skill game, as it isn't very descriptive, as most games use skill. I'm not that keen on sports game for pong either, as most of the details of table tennis are abtracted away. Silverfish 19:46, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Footer templates

I have a couple of ideas for footer templates for this here project. What are your ideas? Do we even need one?

The first idea here is a "timeline" sort of thing. It'd let you browse games by year. I think it'd be useful, but then we'd have to create a whole bunch of new lists of arcade games by the year they came out--right now the only list is alphabetical. It'd look something like this here:

Of course the links would point to things like "1986 arcade games" or "List of 1986 arcade games" instead of the years as they do now. But, like I said, this would require us to make lists for each one. Maintaining each list would be a bear.

Next, we could have a footer for games in a series, such as Donkey Kong. We'd need a template for each series, which could get old. Conversely we could just hard-code them into each article in the series. For example (for Donkey Kong Jr.):

Legacy
Preceded by			Succeeded by
Donkey Kong	Donkey Kong Junior		Donkey Kong 3

What 'cha all think on both? Needed? Ugly? Stupid? Useful? Other ideas? — Frecklefoot | Talk 20:10, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

I don't know Wikipedia's category system yet, but wouldnt it be possible to make a category for each year? Then make the 'release date' year in the infobox link to the category, and (tada!) you have an auto-maintained list for every year. Concerning the game series/legacy box: I think the template should include all games of the series. --Tjansen 12:19, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Categories are incredibly easy to create. All you do is put something like this: [[Category:1984 arcade games]] at the end of the article and voila, you have a category! Until you fill in a description for the category, however, it will show up as a broken link. I've created dozens of categories myself, so I know how to go about doing it. We could change all the [[Category:Arcade games]] to the appropriate year, e.g. [[Category:1984 arcade games]]. I hadn't thought of that--categories would be perfect for this. Each year category would be a sub-category of [[Category:Arcade games]] of course.

Good point on the series footer. Since most arcade game series only have 2 to maybe four games in the entire series, including all of them would make sense. Thanks for the feedback. Anymore? — Frecklefoot | Talk 01:44, Sep 7, 2004 (UTC)

Monitor/Size

The Monitor/size field is usually hard to fill. Some games have been released as conversion kits or cartridges, and thus there is no monitor size for them. Other games had several cabinet types with different monitor sizes. The information is also hard to obtain, KLOV rarely helps, and for most people it is not that interesting. Thus I would suggest to remove this field from future infoboxes and the infobox template. Possibly it could be replaced by the screen resolution in pixels. --Tjansen 20:27, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Good call and good point (often monitor size varied). I can remove it from the infobox template. — Frecklefoot | Talk 14:56, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

New Infobox ?

I noticed that someone has recently created infoboxes for Elevator Action and Jungle Hunt which are slightly different to the ones currently used for the other arcade game articles. Are we going with this new design, sticking with the old one or merging the two together? --DaveGorman 20:54, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, use of the infobox presented on the main page is just a suggestion. Use of it is strictly voluntary. So anyone can use any infobox they please--even ad-hoc ones for every article they create. So the answer is "go with whatever feels good." :-) I don't have any objections to the new one--it is similar enough not to be jarring. I even like some of the extra info it has, but it's probably not appropriate for every article. — Frecklefoot | Talk 21:11, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)

IMHO the extra fields are too technical. Few people care about the exact technical details. Maybe some people find it interesting that the system used a Z-80, but a 'AY-3-8910' sound chip? As most games are based on a relatively small number of hardware platforms, it would be more appropriate to create pages for the platforms (Sega Naomi, CPS-3, System 16...) and just link to them. This solution does not help for early games with custom-design though.. but a page for each manufacturer that explains the technical details of their early games may would help.--Tjansen 16:41, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yep, I agree with you. While the CPU powering the game is mildly interesting, the sound chip used is obscure except to the most dedicated hobbyists. — Frecklefoot | Talk 18:17, Sep 22, 2004 (UTC)

Popularity/notability metrics

So far, we seem to have articles on most of the obvious arcade games, e.g. Asteroids, Rainbow Islands, Breakout. I think it would be useful to have some figures to work out how notable games are. This might help us work out what games to write about.

The metrics could include sales figures, figures for money put into the machines, sales figures for console/PC adaptations, etc. This may reveal that we have most of the notable games already, but might also reveal suprising ommissions as well.

The problem is, I'm not sure where to look for this sort of information, and wondered if someone else knows where to find it. Silverfish 22:36, 26 Sep 2004

Well, yes, that would be interesting. But the best resource that I know is the KLOV Top 100. And it's not perfect, for instance it does not contain Street Fighter 2 (probably because there are a million different versions, so everybody voted for a different one)--Tjansen 22:51, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I don't know of a resource for sales either. The problem is, how do you measure "sales"? How many games were produced or how much money did all the machines in use garner? The former doesn't seem to be a very good indicator--a game that is wildly popular may not have been produced in large numbers (though unlikely). The latter is probably impossible to gather data on.

Also, Silverfish, please sign your posts. :-) — Frecklefoot | Talk 17:44, Sep 27, 2004 (UTC)

I agree, sales figures are more problematic for arcade games, although the number of machines sold would presumedly correspond loosely to how popular a game is, after all, arcade owners are going to be more likely to buy the more popular games. All I thinking of here is rough metrics, to get some ideas for what we still have to write about, and see how good are coverage is. Sales figures were just an example though, if other metrics exist, such as the KLOV top 100, they could be useful too.

Also, I normally do sign my posts, but thanks for reminding me Frecklefoot. I've signed the original post retrospectively. Silverfish 11:56, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yes, my friend's book says that Ms. Pac-Man was the most successful arcade game ever, but I don't know where he got his data. I think most data of this sort will be apocryphal unless taken from something like the manufacturers website itself, though the numbers even they give may be inflated. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:00, Sep 29, 2004 (UTC)

Infobox

I have placed a copy of the infobox at Wikipedia:Infobox, so make sure any future changes are reflected there. Tuf-Kat 04:47, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

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Categorize game by year?

If you look at the Footer templates discussion, we had raised the issue of categorizing arcade games by year, much like computer and video games are done now (e.g. Category:1984 computer and video games). bumm13 brought up this subject again and its prompted me to think that perhaps we should go ahead and start categorizing arcade games in this manner (e.g. [[Category:1984 arcade games]]). What does everyone else think? As an added bonus, we could then go ahead and start using the footer template if we wanted to. — Frecklefoot | Talk 16:21, Oct 6, 2004 (UTC)

I would be all for this type of categorization of arcade games, as it would help clarify Wikipedia preferred protocol on the matter.--Bumm13 22:48, Oct 10, 2004

But there should be a clear rule which year to take, especially for arcade games which may have ports described on the same page. For instance, it would not make much sense to add Pac-Man to [[Category:2002 arcade games]] only because it has been ported to a mobile phone in 2002...--Tjansen 22:47, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"Arcade game" would have to be strictly defined as the game in its original coin-operated arcade version. This information is very easy to find and verify. For example, Pac-Man could have both a [[Category:1980 arcade games]] and [[Category:1982 computer and video games]] category (the first official port to a home console was the poorly designed 1982 Atari 2600 version). I don't see why this would be difficult to do.--Bumm13 15:38, Oct 10 2004 (UTC)