Talk:Hinduism

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It should say ancient India not Indian subcontinent

In the introductory it says that HInduism originated from the Indian SUbontinent...BUt this is not 100% true...Because technically HInduism was partly formed from areas that were once part of India, but are technically not on the Subocontinent...For example parts of Hinduism was established in areas like Iran & Afghanistan, and both Iran and Afghanistan were part of ANCIENT INDIA....Another example is parts of it were formed in BUrma, which used to be part of India, but is not technically part of the INDIAN SUBCONTINENT....So instead of saying it was formed in the Indian subcontinent...It should say Ancient India instead ... ARYAN818 07:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you. Aryans and Hindus met in Afghanistan and Uttarapatha (adjoining portions of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, and Tajikistan) for the first time. The region had a strong Hindu presence though it might not have been strictly a part of India. Madras and Kurus among others hailed from here. Aupmanyav 06:37, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Introductory Paragraph

"Hinduism is a religion that orginated from the Indian subcontinent. However it must be noted that Hinduism does not have one main holy book and the Vedas were not the only teachings to have influenced the religion."

Eh? Where is the continuity between the two sentences? The introductory paragraph for this important article has always been a mess, with repeated changes and reverts. When you make a change, please read the paragraph once again and ensure that it makes sense.

Serious issues in the article

I would suggest that someone to take time to address the following issues:

1. Lot of new material has been added in a haphazard manner. I point to the Tantra section which uses all kinds of terms and information with no references or even wikilinking.
2. Their should be a controversy section in the article. However, any effort to do so has been continuously reverted/deleted or turned into picking on other religions.
3. Lot of text has been added without any references. Examples: "Though historians do not agree on the specific period,", "In contemporary India, caste differences are slowly disappearing with modernization, but occasional tensions and prejudices still remain." Not a single reference in "Origins of Hinduism" section. I can keep going - basically, people are more interested in adding information pertaining to their own denomination or view on the matter without worrying about evidence.
4. False references. The reference by Vanita R. should not even be in the article anymore because all the text that was pertaining to that reference is (for some mysterious reason) no longer present in the article. That makes me wonder how many other references are still present in the bibliography but without the relevant text?

In its current stage, I believe that the article does not meet FA criteria any longer and is a candidate for a FARC. --Blacksun 22:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Criticism of Hinduism--Dangerous-Boy 18:59, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

hey maybe we can just not have a Hinduism article - after all their can be a main article for every topic in there? Anyways, I already know your position on this matter. It is useless to argue anymore about it. However, as I pointed out, their are various other serious matters with the article. It is not FA quality by a long shot. --Blacksun 04:35, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

On the section on Tantra:

Pardon my barging in, but I notice that there is already a separate wiki on Tantra. Perhaps we could, for conciseness, mention in a sentence or two about Tantra (particularly its relationship with Hinduism proper) and refer to the Tantra wiki itself. Better still, I feel, would be an omission of this Tantra section altogether. After all, having two separate writings on Tantra is not only superfluous but could lead to the problem of information conflict. With kind regards, Hemanath 05:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Take it out. Blacksun doesn't like it.--Dangerous-Boy 03:31, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Dangerous-Boy. I believe it is in all of our interest to keep Wikipedia "wikis" tight and concise, as encyclopedia articles should be. Tidying up could be done for the Tantra section but this need not be limited to that section alone; other sections could be tightened up as well. Some valuable guidance for structuring this wiki could be obtained if we compare it with other encyclopedia articles (online or printed) on Hinduism or other religions. Hemanath 09:37, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Is someone feeling grumpy? --Blacksun 12:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I was looking at the tantra section. A lot of it should be removed since it's not cited.--Dangerous-Boy 05:35, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I have removed Tantra section from the article, as it was wikilined at various places and was without any citaions. Also, I have removed unnecessary addition of Bhakti section because with different approachs, Bhakti is present in Adavita, Davita and others. So, I think there is no need to define Bhakti as an alternate culture of worship. Because of the removal of both Tantra and Bhakti sections, now there is no "Alternate culture of worship" section. - Holy Ganga ^talk 11:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Consensus on Naming Conventions

Dear Wikipedians,

Among the basic requisites of a quality (and hence, a feature) article is consistency. I notice a lack of consistency in terminology in this article. For example, in some sections of the article, the Rig Veda is referred to as the Rigveda, and vice versa. Similarly, the Bhagavad Gita, in some parts of the article, is spelled as Bhagvad Gita. I also noticed references to Ram (is it equivalent to Rama?)

I highlight only some instances of inconsistencies in spelling. There may be more in the article to the eyes of discerning readers. I therefore suggest that Wikipedians who maintain or edit this site adhere to a fixed set of naming rules. Splashprince 09:12, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Dharmic) and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic) --Dangerous-Boy 19:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation and Substantiation

When a statement is introduced into the article, it is recommended that a reliable source (a peer-reviewed article or a published book) is cited to support the statement. I believe this Hinduism article requires a systematic review to ensure that entries in it are substantiated, as far as it is possible. Admittedly, this is certainly not an easy task, but it would contribute to the article's credibility as a source of reference. This is, after all, a feature Wikipedia article and often a first source of reference for Internet users. Splashprince 09:25, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

I see this as a problem in all religious topics and is the main reason why most have lost FA status. This article is heading the same way. --Blacksun 12:58, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Hinduism/Peer review--Dangerous-Boy 19:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Archive

The page takes way too long to load... Can somebody archive the older conversations please... -- Lost 10:56, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Done - Holy Ganga ^talk 11:42, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Oldest existent religion in the world?

"It is the oldest existent religion in the world." - As the second sentence in the article, I believe this statement needs qualifying. Previous editions of this article stated that Hinduism was the oldest of the "major world religions." This is more correct, as Hinduism is undoubtedly this. But the question of what constitutes an 'existent religion' is open to interpretation. The religion of the Aboriginal people of Australia is much older than Hinduism, and is still existent. Whether this is a formal 'religion' is debatable, and even the Wikipedia article religion says the definition of the word is not a sharp one. I suggest we go back to the original statement of Hinduism being the oldest of the world's major religions, because this is not dependent on what definition of 'religion' is used. Cheers.

I believe the above anonymous contributor has a valid point. I hope a credible source is cited to qualify whatever statement is made with regard to the age of this religion. Splashprince 15:06, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

How do we know that the religion of the Austr aboriginal people is older than Hinduism? Are there records of their practice from those days? I agree though that the original statement is safer..--Pranathi 21:30, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I would say that both and (and many others) are equally old, right from the dawn of civilization, I would go with the anonymous contributor. Aupmanyav 13:52, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the "oldest religion" statement either. Too much ambiguity. If a good reference is not provided, I'm going to change it to something more probably correct like "one of the oldest". Vonspringer 00:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It would hardly make sense to assign any beginning dates for evolved religions (those without a founder, and which keep changing with time.) Clearly, some beliefs can be traced back to the beginning of civilisation itself (possibly, even earlier if we think of primates, which too have some ethical codes.), certainly (in case of Hinduism) a lot can be traced to the Proto-Indo-European religion, and in case of aboriginal Australian religions, to some other prehistorical beliefs. Thus, I don't see any point in trying to figure out which is older. Either the "oldest" statement be qualified with more specific details (like oldest of world's major religions, "major" linked to number of adherents), or just go with the original statement. deeptrivia (talk) 05:15, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

If Hinduism isnt the oldest then which religion is?....I mean Hinduism wasnt established when the Vedas were written...Because the Vedas were passed down orally for centuries....And dont forget their is no main prophet, no main founder, and no main city that founded this religion....It actualy isnt a religion....THe word Hindu isnt even a word...If u people would stop and take the time to read some HIndu scriptures, and understand the notion of Karma and the universe, u will see that these teachings go back to the start of man....I am not a hardcore religoius freak...I am not someone that says Hinduism is the best and everyone else is wrong...But im trying to show u logic here....Hinduism is not someting u can put a date on...SO therefore it is the oldest... ARYAN818 19:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

That's a non-point. If Hinduism is not something you can put a date on, then it is perforce not old or young, let along "the oldest".—Nat Krause^(Talk!) 21:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The Definition of Hinduism and Against Abramitic Campaign of the "Galileans"

Raj, are you again at it? Two hoots for anyone's personal traditions, I follow the tradition of my family worshipping Shiva, Vishnu, Ganesha, Kartikeya, Durga, Rama, Krishna, Hanuman, Saraswati (whom Sankara forgot to include in the Gods permissible for worship, though he added Kartikeya later). Do I have to be a Smarta or a Madhva to be a hindu? I thought we had discussed this in detail. Returned to the page after a few days and find it changed drastically without discussion. I am a polytheist and a hindu. Who are you to define hinduism for me? For that matter, who are Sankara, Madhva, Ramanuja, Nimbarka, Vallabhacharya, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Raman Maharshi, Aurobindo, or the Mutt Heads to define Hinduism for me? I will study the scriptures and their views (they views are important for me) but make my own decisions. What authority any one has to call me a non-hindu. Hindus would keep defining Hinduism in their own individual ways. If you mean a Brahman which includes you and me, then 'it' is not even a God, then 'it' does not need to be worshipped. I do not know which 'one God' you are talking about. Neither Smarta Hinduism, nor Madhva Hinduism, nor even your Ramakrishna Hinduism is the only Hinduism. I would keep on contesting people who would like to fetter Hinduism in any way. Aupmanyav 10:47, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Raj, would you kindly tell me how did the various traditions in Hinduism came about? People were not satisfied with the explanations available to them at that time and came up with their own explanations which were accepted and followed by other people. Sankara's explanation did not satisfy Madhva, Madhva's explanation did not satisfy Ramanuja and so on. This would and aught to keep on happening. Hinduism is not a dead religion. If we were to be attached to only the existant tradition, there would not have been a plethora of traditions in Hinduism. There is nothing wrong with a Hindu being a polytheist. How many to worship and whom is between me and my God/Gods. Nobody can or should interfere in this. Otherwise 'Vipra badhudha vadanti' is meaningless. Aupmanyav 11:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

(The above messages were archived but I am looking for answers from Raj or other discussants who may hold different views. Please excuse me if I have done something wrong as per Wikipedia rules)

You totally misunderstood me. There are many traditions within Hinduism and I am talking of the four major traditions. You and many others are of course entitled to your opinions. For example, Jehovah's witness, a religion that is considered Christian by some, don't consider Jesus to be God the second member of the the Trinity but merely consider Jesus to be God's first creation. Does that make it Christian? Not necessarily so. You ignore the upanishadic statement: Brahman is one.

There's no right way to define Hinduism; sure everyone has their interpretation but some contradict the Vedic and Upanishad view on the matter.

Raj2004 23:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Second, Hanuman is not God. He is a great bhakta of God. As for Saraswait, She is an different aspect of Durga. Krishna is the same as Vishnu and non-different. The same goes with Rama. Shiva is the second aspect of God in the Trimurti concept. Even Kartikeya is simply another aspect of Shiva.

Where are all those gods? I can boil down Hinduism into really 3 forms of God: Vishnu, Shiva and power personifed, Devi. All others are simply aspects of them. To even condense further, Brahman is one.

You may be a polytheist but that's your view.

Raj2004 23:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Raj, you are ignoring the second verse of Hymn One of Book One of RigVeda which says 'Worthy is Agni to be praised by living as by ancient seers, He shall bring hitherward the Gods' (अग्निः पूर्वेभिर्र्षिभिरीड्यो नूतनैरुत | स देवानेह वक्षति ||). There are many other richas like that. Should I quote? Aupmanyav 06:53, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

There are verses like that even in the Bible. Genesis 26: 26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [b] and over all the creatures that move along the ground." Let us seems to indicate more than one God.

So Hinduism evolved from polytheism to monism. Is that any suprise for one of the oldest religions on earth, Aupmanyav?

Raj2004 09:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It is very uncharitable of you to say that Hinduism evolved from polytheism to Monism, as if monism is in anyway superior to the other beliefs. As an upholder of traditions, this should make you sad. In accepting monotheism or monism, Hindus (including the Aryans) have degressed from their original traditions, which were polytheistic. Then, some of the major traditions are not monist. No, I am not surprised by the fact that Hinduism is the one of the oldest religion on earth. This happened because personal beliefs were not considered important enough to fight for, your views could be different from mine, as long as Dharma (duty/right action) was maintained. Personal beliefs, polytheism to monism, after all, are philosophical speculations only. Please do not give examples from Christianity, they are not worthy in a discussion on Hinduism. Man does not rule over all that move. The likeness with God, is He like the Homo Habilis, or Homo Neandertalis, or Homo Sapiens? And where from did he pickup the likeness of Eve?

Do the Vedas, Upanishads, and Darshanas say one thing? If I go by Samkhya, Vaisesika, or Purva Mimamsa, I would not need a God. Why have you picked just one sentence 'Brahman is one', juxtappose that with Madhva's view that 'Ishwara and Jeeva are essentially different'. You rightly say that "there is no 'right way' to define Hinduism", but then proceed to define Hinduism in your own way. Kartikeya is not Shiva, he is Shiva's son. Saraswati is not Durga, but Brahma's daughter. And Hanuman is a God, why otherwise half the Hindus would visit 'Sankat Mochan' temples all over India on a Tuesday or a Friday? I may warn you that you are in danger of earning the displeasure of a professional wrestler or a Brahmachari who worships Hanuman.

Please spare, do not boil down Hindu Gods to three and then to one, in the process you may boil down Hinduism itself. I do not mind many, whatever my personal beliefs be, the more the merrier, more holidays, more festivals; what is wrong in that? I thank you for your magnanimity when you say 'You may be a polytheist but that is your view'. I respond with the same. You may be a monist but that is your view. Do not foist it in Wikipedia as the Hindu view. Aupmanyav 10:56, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

well, aupmanyav, neither you should say that polytheism is the Hindu view. I do not define what Hinduism is but I am only defending an Advaitan way. Who said Saraswati is Brahma's daughter? She is Brahma's wife. Even in your definition, you differ from what many Hindus believe and you contradict yourself. There is nothing wrong with many views. Truth is one, the wise call by different names, the Vedas say. Hanuman is not God; all his actions were devoted for Rama. Neither should you foist your view as a Hindu view. I am only defending an Advaitan view.

Raj2004 23:34, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

As for your statement, that Karkiteya is Siva's son, that may be true. But Swami Sivananda in his book, Lord Shanmuka and His worship, at http://www.dlshq.org/download/shanmukha.htm said that "Lord Subrahmanya is an Avatara of Lord Siva. All incarnations are manifestations of the One Supreme Lord. Lord Subrahmanya and Lord Krishna are one. Lord Krishna says in the Gita, “Senaninam Aharn Skandah,”—“Of the Generals, I am Skanda.” The Lord manifests Himself from time to time in various names and forms for establishing Dharma and punishing the wicked.

Lord Subrahmanya is a ray born of the Chaitanya of Lord Siva. He is the energy of Lord Siva. Valli and Deivayani are His two Divine consorts. They represent the Iccha Shakti and the Kriya Shakti of the Lord. He is a Pratyaksha Devata in this Kali Yuga, like Hanuman. He bestows on His devotees material and spiritual prosperity and success in all their undertakings, even at the slightest devotion shown to Him. He is worshipped much in South India. Guha, Muruga, Kumaresa, Karttikeya, Shanmukha (he who has six faces), Subrahmanya, Skanda, Velayudha (he who wears the Spear), Saravanabhava are synonymous terms. "

As for Madhva, he also said Brahman was one. Just the soul is separate from Brahman, unlike Advaita.

Raj2004 23:40, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, Raj, let us call it a truce. Let us agree that none alone from polytheism, monotheism, or monism, represents the Hindu view; and that Hindus may worship many Gods, One God, or may themselves be the God (Purnamadah purnamidam purnaat purnamudachyate, purnasya purnaamadaya purnameva vashishyate). Anybody else who would like to contribute? Aupmanyav 02:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Aupmanyav, I agree with the truce. This view is correct. There is no one Hindu view.

Raj2004 10:10, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

One more beautiful name of Skanda, Senthilnathan (I do not know the meaning). Aupmanyav 11:22, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

We have the following in the description of Hinduism: 'The term Hinduism is heterogeneous, as Hinduism consists of several schools of thought. It encompasses many religious rituals that widely vary in practice, as well as many diverse sects and philosophies. Many Hindus, influenced by Advaita philosophy, venerate an array of deities, considering them manifestations of the one supreme monistic Cosmic Spirit, Brahman, while many others focus on a singular concept of God, as in Vaishnavism, Saivism and Shaktism.[3]'

Would it be correct to replace it by: 'Hinduism consists of two parts. Dharma (duty, right action) which includes interaction with family and society, the traditions, rituals and practices of a person's society; and Vishwas (personal belief). While the observance of the first is essential, no boundaries are fixed for the second. That is the reason why a Hindu can be a polytheist, monotheist, monist, pantheist, or even an atheist. Followers of Advaita believe in one supreme cosmic sprit, 'Brahman'; while Vaishnavas, Shaivas, and Shaktas focus on a singular concept of God.[3]'

I request opinions from Wikipedians. Aupmanyav 12:05, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

as for atheism, I don't think the Vedas support atheism. I think a belief in the Vedas define what a Hindu is.

Raj2004 23:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey Where are my posts? :) However I 100% Agree with all Aupmanyav's considerations ;), only one note for Raj, Monism isn't incompatible with Polytheism and even Monism isn't Monotheism, Monistic Polytheism historically is a reality, Neo-Platonism for example is a Monistic Polytheism (*), Deities/Divinities/Gods-Goddesses (and also Souls) are emanations or hypostases of The One, this doesn't mean that they are only different parodies or disguises of a Unique GOD (like at a Carneval Party where a GOD-PERSON is all the guests at the same time... and it's always IT or HIM with Its/His personality, this is an abramitic view), every Deity has its own personality and qualities or powers, or if you want it IS (and not only "represent", 'cos this term may suggest the idea of an illusion, a disguise of the same GOD) a different aspect with its own personality and powers of a Unique Supreme Divine Energy or Entity or Reality, The One, Brahman, The Absolute-Infinite, The All, etc. This Supreme Divine Essence can have a Personal or better a Main Coscience, M.C. that can be Personificated, see Ishvara Deva (or Brahma in ancient times) or The Logos, or The Nous; However this is NOT Monotheism... The Absolute-Infinite, Brahman etc. can have a Main Coscience that can be personificated, but subsist the existence of all Deities, each one with its own coscience, personality etc. each one part of The Absolute-Infinite.

(*)Neo-Platonism isn't only the Plotinus' point of view, however Plotinus was a supporter of Polytheism, but other neo-platonic filosophers are more significant about the support and justification of polytheism.

Greetings, --Antioco79 21:59, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Antioco, I agree with you and respectfully disagree. Monism is not compatible with polytheism. Monism is beyond monotheism, which I do agree. Here are other comments: This system common in Advaitan Hinduism is often perceived as polytheistic; it is also a form of inclusive monotheism, where one God is perceived as having many forms. In contrast, a hard polytheist thinks that two gods are different, i.e., Zeus and Poseidon, for example. An inclusive monotheist such as a Smarta, on the other hand, thinks that Vishnu and Shiva are different aspects of a common God. For example, the Smarta theologians, influenced by Advaita philosophy, have cited many references to support this view. In one example, they interpret verses in both the Shri Rudram, the most sacred mantra in Shaivism, and the Vishnu sahasranama, one of the most sacred prayers in Vaishnavism, to show this belief. By contrast, a Vaishnavite considers Vishnu as the only true God worthy of worship, and worship of other forms as subordinate or simply incorrect.

Raj2004 23:45, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

As this site [3] states, 'the Paramatman Brahman is one and only one. He it is that creates, sustains and destroys. And it is he who exfoliates as the the many different deities. Why does he do so? He has not cast people in the same mould. He has created them all differently, with different attitudes, the purpose being to make the affairs of the world interesting by imparting variety to them. The Paramatman himself assumes different forms to suit the temperament of different people so that each worship him in the form he likes and obtain happiness. This is the reason why the one and only Paramatman manifests himself as so many different deities.....Those who are capable of looking upon all deities as the manifestations of the one and only Paramatman have no cause for exclusive devotion to any one of them. It is only when we think that one deity is separate from- or alien to- another that the question arises of giving up one for another. If we realise that all are the different disguises of the One Reality, the various gods and goddesses potrayed in the Puranas, with all the differences among them, will be understood to be nothing but the lila or sport of Supreme Being. It is the One alone that seems divided into manifold entities. This is to help men of various attitudes and temperaments. If this truth is recognised we shall be able to see the stories in the Puranas- stories that seem contradictory- in the true light."

Raj2004 00:28, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Raj, sorry but Neo-Platonism is a proof that Monism and Polytheism are compatible and complete themselves each other, however if Monism is reduced to a different doctrinal form of Monotheism is not Monism, if The One is the Only One GOD and Deities are only parodies of IT this is not Monism, and the theologians that assert it are in error, this is Monotheism. I go further and I ask you if Brahman is the only Supreme BEING, like it could be a Person, who are you? and what are Souls? are we all disguises of Brahman? are we all puppets of It? the Monistic point of view is based on the concept of the Essential Unity of all the plurality of beings and things, but this doesn't mean that this Supreme Essence is the only existing BEING (in sense of a unique person, personality, being etc.), if Brahman is the only BEING and if All the Reality is only a BEING this is not Monism is ULTRA-Monotheism! and I know that your point of view Raj is not the view of the common indian people, maybe some currents or part of them or some theologians can assert it but however the view of Brahman like a Super-Being-GOD is not the only view, it's more common to consider Brahman as a Supreme Divine Energy that pervades all the reality and IS all the reality but not in sense of a cancellation of the plurality.

Greetings --Antioco79 10:04, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Atheism not in Vedas: I am not aware that Kapila, Kanada, or Jaimini were declared heretics. There are Hindus whose traditions are different from the Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas. Aupmanyav 10:53, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

May I remind people of the changes I wanted to make (see above), would you kindly give your valued opinions. Aupmanyav 14:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Is this text needed?

"The eighteen Purāṇas are divided into three groups of six. The groups and their contents are: 1) the Brahmā Purāṇas: the Brahma Purāṇa, Brahmāṇḍa Purāṇa, Brahma Vaivarta Purāṇa, Mārkaṇḍeya Purāṇa, Bhaviṣhya Purāṇa, and Vāmana Purāṇa; 2) the Viṣhnu Purāṇas: the Viṣhnu Purāṇa, Bhāgavata Purāṇa, Nāradīya Purāṇa, Garuḍa Purāṇa, Padma Purāṇa, and Varāha Purāṇa; and 3) the Shiva Purāṇas: the Vāyu Purāṇa, Liṅga Purāṇa, Skanda Purāṇa, Agni Purāṇa, Matsya Purāṇa, and Kūrma Purāṇa." - This is the only part that I feel still needs wiklinking. However, I am not even sure if having a long list of names is really worth while. Please give feedback on whether or not it should be kept - if you want to keep it then wikilinking is needed. --Blacksun 14:55, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you should get rid of it. The same list is mentioned and wikilinked on the puranas page. Puranas is already wikilinked on the main hinduism page.--Dangerous-Boy 17:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

excellent, the article is now down to an acceptable 60k. Thanks for the effort, and try to keep it 'slim' :) btw, if anyone can be bothered, please replace all {{unicode}} marking Sanskrit transliteration with {{IAST}}, it's why we have the template. dab (ᛏ) 19:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Quality of references

Please please please understand that it is not just about adding a citation. Quality of citation is even more important. Almost all of the citations used in the article right now would be rejected even in a higschool composition class. For instance, adding a link to a product description page that is for sale does not count as a citation. It is a waste of time to add such references. Try to use books, papers, etc. --Blacksun 22:25, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

You can change or remove any citation. Please contribute. - Holy Ganga ^talk 22:30, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Ok, lets do one thing. Start discuss all citaions as you said , one by one and select only those which are OK and at the same time keep searching for better ones. I hope you are not interested in only so called western scholars like max muller and witzel recognised citations. - Holy Ganga ^talk 23:07, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Really almost everything under "reference" section is appropriate. However, none of it is used directly. Almost everything under "Notes" section is inappropriate unless it is a citation for things like Hindu population. I don't understand if someone read all that material under "Reference" then why did they not use more inline citations from it? And no, I dont care who the scholars are as long as we are not citing website that is selling art. Any thing that is published is better than what we have. --Blacksun 16:39, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

your comments are not really useful, holyganga. "please contribute"?? I hope you are aware of the effort Blacksun has put into this article, so who are you to tell him to just fix it? Let's face it, it is extremely difficult to improve Hinduism related articles, because of the constant stream of extremely substandard and naive edits. It would take a couple of Indologists half a day to turn this into an excellent article, but with the never-ending deterioration, it is a Herculean task just to preserve the modest quality already reached. Don't try to portray this as an East vs. West issue. It's a scholarship vs. puerile naivete issue. There are a lot of really erudite Indian editors here, but the plain fact is that they are simply overwhelmed by the crap added each day. dab (ᛏ) 17:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

What exactly are you objecting, dab? I definitely meant what I said and I respect Blacksun capabalities. If Blacksun can request user Rama's arrow and others to contribute, so i can request Blacksun. - Holy Ganga ^talk 10:22, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

It is ok - I took no offense. Let us forget about personal conflicts. I understand that things can get testy from time to time and I am more than willing to ignore that. I would just like to say that going through the article looking for things to improve is a contribution too :) --Blacksun 15:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

On Advaita Vedanta and "Monism"

It is extremely innacurate to associate Advaita with "monism". "Monism" is a western philosophical term for asserting that, in a duality, one term of the duality comes from the other. Advaita Vedanta has nothing to do with such concepts. TwoHorned 10:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Not true. It depends on what your definition of monism is.

according to www.dictionary.com, monism can mean

1. The view in metaphysics that reality is a unified whole and that all existing things can be ascribed to or described by a single concept or system.

2. The doctrine that mind and matter are formed from, or reducible to, the same ultimate substance or principle of being.

I think advaita fits into one of those categories, definitely the first one.

Raj2004 12:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The first definition of monism you have found from www.dictionary.com does not apply to Advaita Vedanta for the simple reason that Western Metaphysics does not contemplate non-manifestation. Then, accordingly, when www.dictionary.com asserts that "that reality is a unified whole" they assume the equality between reality and manifestation, which is in formal contradiction with the most basic Advaita Vedanta statement. You should have looked upon the Wikipedia article for Monism, which explains with better accuracy the term. In that article, you will find the indication they give about substantial monism: "Substantial Monism, (One thing) which holds that there is one substance". The "substance" which is referred to there clearly indicates that, to use Hindu terminology, they don't go beyond Prakriti. Consequently, in the classical Western definition of monism, every duality is resolved, not transcendentally, but by derivation from a single "universal" substance, which is equivalent to the definition of "monism" I gave in the first place, a definition you wrongly declared as untrue. Again, Advaita Vedanta goes infinitely higher than that. If you consider the other significations of "monism", you will also notice that the association of "monism" with pantheism clearly indicate how Advaita Vedanta is foreign to these considerations, because pantheism is clearly related to naturalism, a notion in formal contradiction with Advaita Vedanta. TwoHorned 13:04, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

ok, I agree with your reasoning. Thanks for the clarification. You are indeed correct that Advaita does contemplate non-manifestation. Raj2004 23:44, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Hindu symbolism

In the section "Hindu symbolism", the descriptions associated to the two last items are quite problematic:

1- Swastika. First, an important meaning of that marvellous symbol is not mentionned: the Swastika is a symbol of the action of the Principle on the universal Manisfestation. The four segments are tangent to the circle centered on the cross, and the circle (symbolizing Manifestation) itself is not present, which is a clear indication that the Swastika symbolizes the dynamic action of the centre (Principle) over the Manisfestation, not the Manifestation in itself. Since two orientations are naturally associated with a circle, you easily obtain in that way the two possible orientations for the Swastika. The two possible orientations are present in India, although one is more prevalent in Hinduism, but the two orientations exist and are perfectly orthodox. There is an evident connection with the notion of Pradakshina. Consequently, the evil in the utilization of that symbol by the Nazis does not come from their particular choice of an orientation, but rather from the subversion of an authentic traditional symbol to make it a political one, as they did not understand its meaning. As matter of fact, I think that it is even not worth mentionning the perverted use that the Nazis made of that symbol: after all, the Swastika is being used since millenaries, by Hindus in particular, so why focus on a malevolent and recent interpretation ?

2- Mandala. In a similar vein, the most important signification of the two triangles is missing: it is a symbol based on the number 6 symbolism and it is a symbol of Analogy. It is not at all a symbol of "opposite energies", what is written here is false. And its use as a political flag by Israelis also results, like in item 1 above, (although from an opposite perspective of course) in the political perversion of an authentic symbol by people who don't understand it. A reference to the "Salomon Seal" would have been more appropriate than the "Star of David", if one insists on drawing correspondances with Judaism. And, incentally, please note that this symbol is used in Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Buddhism and also other traditions.

3- For the Aum symbol, I think that what is written here is correct.

Consequently, I brought little changes to the "Hindu Symbolism" section, to make it more satisfactory. Any reactions are welcome.

TwoHorned 11:06, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Hindu symbolism is explained in unlimited ways. It would be a mistake to take one explanation as the only way. Aupmanyav 13:13, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree entirely. This is why I added a sentence: universal symbols have many interpretations in the "Mandala" symbol description. TwoHorned 14:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article review/Hinduism

I hope that all editors of this article realise that the article is on the verge of being stripped off its featured status. Please see discussions on the link above and try to improve the article before the featured status is revoked. -- Lost 18:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Too late now :(. Hope to see it featured some day again.. -- Lost 14:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Farewell featured article status...--D-Boy 07:23, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

link clean up drive

Well, I know I can at least do one thing to clean up the articles. I going to remove a lot of those links. there's just too much crap down there. anyone is welcome to join me. Be bold! I start in the next couple of days.--D-Boy 07:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

links removed:

• Online Book on conversion to Hinduism
• Sarve Samachar - Hindu news
• Swaminarayan.info - Information on the Swaminarayan Sampraday
• Ten common questions by outsiders and pertinent answers.
• VEDA - Vedas and Vedic Knowledge Online
• Hinduism articles Bhagavad Gita Sanatana Dharma
• The Complete Hinduism Daily articles on all aspects of Hinduism.
• Hinduism A Perspective Articles introducing many concepts of Hinduism.
• sankaracharya.org Advaita Vedanta and Hindu Upanishads

--D-Boy 03:12, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

hey look sites such as the swaminarayan site should be kept up. They are apart of Hinduism. Also it is the fastest growing Hindu Sect thus making it neccesary for the link to be there. SO Bro we need it back up

Attitudes Towards Sex

Shouldn't the main page contain an article about this? It is, after all, a rather important part of life, it wouldn't be around without it. Most religions attach some form of importance to it so I'm surprised this article doesn't contain any comment on the subject.--Tiresais 16:38, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Unless a religion has specific directive towards sex, their is little reason to include in the article. Attitudes towards sex is very much cultural rather than religious and it is hard to generalize that in an article about Hinduism to any type of accuracy as cultural attitudes vary from region to region. --Blacksun 16:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

There is obviously mention of it in the article, so a general point on the subject could be express. Attitudes from the religion's point of view are set in stone, or ink and paper. Cultural issues are rather a matter of personal perspective and interpretation. A general point from the religion doesn't need to be accurate.--Tiresais 18:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Attitudes from the religion's point of view are not always set in stone or ink and paper. It is afterall a human that writes things and that always changes. Don't confuse cultural with religious. I am not really aware of any strict sexual guidelines in Hinduism that are not cultural - but then again i am not an expert. --Blacksun 07:50, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not confusing cultural and religious. Take an example of Catholicism, the religion strictly denounces sex before marriage, but cultural differences may put more or less emphasis on the point (Africa is stricter due to prevalent STD's for example). If there are no strict guidelines then fair enough, but it seems a bit weird that they'd not mention it. --Tiresais 08:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Hinduism is not victorian, it accepts sex as very important to life, makes it into four things which must be done in life (Arth, Kama, Dharma, Moksha), and must be indulged in according to Dharma, never to excess. How otherwise one would be free of pitri-rina, if not by begetting not only sons but daughters too. Giving a daughter in marriage (Kanyadana) is a simplest way to Moksha. As for marriage, nineteen ways are listed, some are looked down upon (Rakshasa Vivah, Paishach Vivah - abduction and rape), some are tolerated (Gandharva Vivah - love), while others are commended (Prajapatya Vivah - marriage arranged with consent of parents and gifts for the couple). Aupmanyav 01:58, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

We can mention kamashastra. I agree that Hinduism is not prudish by any means. --^Babub→Talk 04:59, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

non-vedic schools of thought ?

Maybe there should be a section on non-vedic schools of thought in Hinduism. see: http://www.tamu.edu/chr/agora/sukumaran4.html

No, the article needs to be cut back in its length and made more concise. Adding every obscure school of thought is not the aim. --Blacksun 16:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Mahabharata glossary

I copied this message from WikiProject Hinduism's talk page because that page is slightly inactive. After whizzing through the page I saw that it was more than just a glossary on Mahabharat! I think it should be merged into Glossary of terms in Hinduism. Please discuss. Gizza^{Chat ©} 02:52, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hinduism And Monotheism

Shouldn't this article note that Hinduism is a monotheistic religion? In reality it is. Most Hindus believe "There is One truth, but paths are many." All Hindu deities are supposedly manifestations of the "One" true God called the Brahman. It is similar to Christianity with the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit being actually three versions of the true "One" God. Shouldn't this be noted in the first section of this article? Zachorious 04:29, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

There has never been a census of how many Hindus are monotheist or monists or polytheist or atheist or henotheist or pantheist or ...theist. A hindu will be within his rights to change his belief anytime, e.g., from being an atheist to being a polytheist; and return back to atheism after a week's time. Hinduism gives complete freedom to its adherents as far as philosophical speculations go. An opinion on percentages would be very personal. Do not compare Hinduism to Christian belief, they are poles apart. Aupmanyav 04:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I think you are going raving mad, Aupmanyav, to prove that Hinduism is pure polytheism, monotheism is a sin, and what not, just to prove that we are "different" and let us be different. This is the 21st century, all trying to prove they are "different". PS: I saw your long, illogical aruments with Raj.Cygnus_hansa 18:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Eh? Aupmanyav's being perfectly clear that Hindus are not necessarily 'pure' polytheists, and where is there any implication that monotheism is a sin? The passage you've responded to is saying that some Hindus are monotheists, and making no judgement about that either way. Hindus are indeed different from each other, I'm not sure what your point is in this regard? --Oolong 12:07, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Christianity is not monotheistic either if you look critically at it. But we pretend it is because it descends from the Abrahamic tradition, it provides lots of justifications, and it is important to Christians to claim that it monotheistic. Whether Hinduism is monotheism or not, is not important to Hinduism; it is only important in terms of comparisons with Islam and Christianity. There is much more that can be usefully included in this article than comparitive religion. Imc 20:30, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

What is Christanity then? Im pretty sure they only believe in one god. Gizza^{Chat ©} 06:35, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe Imc is referring to the concept of the Trinity, which can in some ways be considered polytheistic (and there are some monotheists who do find the Trinitarianism of most Christianity to be heretical). OzLawyer 17:17, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

This is my perception taht Aupmanyav is playing devil's advocate to so much extant, that probably he would like 99 % of the article to scream that Hinduims is atheism + polytheism, and leave 1 % towards a neutral attitude towards monism + monotheism, etc. ANd his declaration of Vaisheshika philosophy as atheistic is fundamentally wrong.Cygnus_hansa 17:50, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

I say that making Hinduism into a 'purely' monotheistic faith is a sin because it goes against the Vedic injunction 'Vipra Bahudha Vadanti'. It is a sin to desire that a rainbow to have only one color, it will necessarily will have seven. What I have said is that percentages are personal opinions. Christians and muslims beliefs are totally irrelevant here and as IMC said belong to comparative religion page. Cygnus_hansa, you are being unfair and uncivil, I am surprised and pained. It is true, Hinduism is different and there is no other religion like it. Do the Abrahamic religions give this kind of freedom of belief to their adherents. Even in Buddhism you have to accept their standard definition of Karma, Nirvana, and Buddhahood. If what I wrote to Raj was illogical, you could have intervened. You can do that even now and I will reply to your objections as best as I can. How many articles should I send you to establish that many people think 'Vaisesika' to be atheistic? I sent one from 'Times of India' to your talk page. A search on Google with 'vaisesika' and 'atheist' gives me 258 entries (http://www.google.co.in/search?hl=en&q=vaisesika+atheist&btnG=Google+Search&meta=). Aupmanyav 17:45, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Unfair and uncivil (sic) because I am sick and tired. I never said that Hinduism is purely monotheism. I stand by the "Several deities" paragraph, that I had written. Hinduism does give huge amounts of personal freedom, but you are generalizing some exceptions too much. And for your information, I have had an explicit course in Indian philosophy, + read several books, many of which I can quote. All of them explicitly say that Vaisheshika is theistic philosophy. Only Sankhya and Mimansa were atheistic (that too not horribly atheistic, just mildly so). Original Vaisheshika sutras had only one reference to God, but the total philosophy has to be taken over the centuries. And later philosophers of Vaisheshika do make logical statements and characteristics about God. And about your links: you simply count the heads, not looking inside. 99 % of the links, except positiveatheism.com scream just the opposite that you claim. Cygnus_hansa 15:03, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Hinduism cannot be contained in explicit courses. If you have done a course and have read several books, I have done a life, which is a bigger course. You yourself say that 'Original Vaisesika sutras had only one reference to God', but the philosophy was modified/defiled/interpolated/additions made later to have it confirm with the main-stream views, shows that the original theory was atheistic. Only that the later philosophers were not as brave as Kanada. Even that one reference to God may have been a later addition. I will come back to you on Vaisesika. In the mean time, you can visit Talk: Vaisesika. Aupmanyav 06:53, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

'As there is no reference to Îs`vara and as adrsta proceeding out of the performance of actions in accordance with Vedic injunctions is made the cause of all atomic movements, we can very well assume that Vais'esika was as atheistic or non-theistic as the later Mîmâmsâ philosophers.'

A History of Indian Philosophy, Surendranath Dasgupta (http://hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/philo/ch08.asp)

Cygnus_Hansa, the probable date of Kanada is 600 BC, whereas the first commentary on Vaisesika by Pras'astapada came in 5th or 6th century AD. And what Pras'astapada wrote was not strictly a commentary, he wrote what he believed after reading Kanada's philosophy. The time difference is some 900 years. Many things had changed by that time. The Vedic beliefs had taken a secondary position and indigenous Hinduism had reasserted itself. That is why God became important and the spirit of independant enquiry was lost. That is why whereas there is no reference to God in Vaisesika Sutra, the commentaries show it as theistic. Note that Poorva Mimamsa also considered performance of actions in accordance with Vedic injunctions enough for our life. More over, Vaisesika got entangled with Nyaya and its pecularities were lost. Aupmanyav 12:21, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S.-Hindus may be atheists, but most of the time they are not horribly so. Yours faithfully also is an atheist, but that does not mean that he does not revere Rama and Krishna. For him, they are heroes of Indian mythology from whose stories he takes his directions for conduct of his life. Such hindus may be atheists but they are not horribly materialistic like Charvakists and still value family and society. Aupmanyav 01:22, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Also they are not evangelical about their atheism and can exist happily with theists, curtesy Hinduism. Aupmanyav 13:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Indian words

I'm no expert on the subject, but aren't many words here spelled weirdly? For instance, shouldn't "Vishnu" be either Vishnu (if simple English) or "Viṣṇu" (if properly transliterated)? It's "Viṣhṇu" in the article—a spelling which seems to be a combination of both, taking both the English "sh" and the "ṣ" which is supposed to replace it. The article Vishnu uses "Viṣṇu" as its Sanskrit transliteration. OzLawyer 19:44, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

You're entirely correct. It should be one or the other, not both! See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic) for details of how we're trying to standardise this across all Indic-related pages (it's a WIP policy at the moment). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:27, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Ya they spell Karm as "Karma"....Shiv as "Shiva"...Buddh as "Buddha"....Ram as "Rama"....Krishn as "Krishna"....I mean the list goes on...I dont know why they do this do Indian words...THey either add an extra letter "A" at the end or do something else to it. ARYAN818 00:08, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Aryan, as someone who has told me several times that they've read the Hindu holy books, surely you know that's how they're pronounced in Sanskrit? Did you not know that Hindi/Punjabi have dropped the final short 'a' on most Sanskrit-derived words? :P Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 10:15, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

No mention of many Hindu books

I saw a section for the Gita & Shruti, but their was no section for the UPansishads, Puranas, Ramayan, Mahabharat, and the Kama Sutra...Yes I know that some of these were mentioned in sentences...But how come they dont have their own section just like the GIta and SHruti? ARYAN818 00:06, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Upanishads are part of Shruti and the others are part of Smriti, which also has a section. The only exception is Kam Sutra, which doesn't have a mention because it isn't really a relgious book. There are few refs to dharma etc., but it is just a Sanskrit book on family relationships and love. Bear in mind that not all existing Sanskrit texts are based on religion. There are also the panchtantra and hitopadesh. Gizza^{Chat ©} 12:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Consensus on "core concepts"

Lately, Maleabroad and I have entered into a cycle of insertions and deletions. Like some other cycles--samsara, for example--this one would be good to escape.

As I see it, Maleabroad, the problem is that what you are inserting as "core concepts" of Hinduism are concepts many Hindus may agree with but many others may not.

Could I ask, Maleabroad, that before once again inserting this material you place your suggestions about it here on the Talk page and see whether we can arrive at a consensus? Thank you very much. Respectfully, O Govinda 23:59, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Indian law

I just cut:

However, Article 15 of the Indian Constitution prohibits discrimination on the basis of an individual's caste, while Article 17 prohibits practice of the social stigma of untouchability . In contemporary India, caste differences are slowly disappearing with modernization, but occasional tensions and prejudices still remain.

...from the article. This seems to be trying to argue some point about the caste system and Indian law and culture that does not seem to me to be directly relevent to the religion of Hinduism. If I'm wrong, and this is crucial information about Hinduism, I'd like to encourage some rewording to avoid citing specific articles of the Constitution of India and then immediately changing to a breezy tone of unsourced generalisation. Jkelly 22:28, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Mohit

Can the knowledgeable people comment on this AFD please? Is the article a hoax? -- Lost 14:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not a joke, it is a hoax, it is disrespect to Wikipedia, and disrespect to scholarship of any kind. How come such silly pages take so long to be removed and the person responsible is not banned? Aupmanyav 13:32, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

No polytheism in Hinduism

After long discussions I was able to add to the Hinduism page that there are Hindus who worship many Gods. I return to the page after some days to find that polytheists have been removed from the Hindu fold and only Monism or Dualism is acceptable to the powers that be. That too without any discussion. It seems that the Hinduism page should be made into in many pages, each detailing the views of only one person, like Aupmanyav's page on Hinduism, or Dangerous-Boy's page on Hinduism, or Cygnus-Hansa's page on Hinduism, or Raj's page on Hinduism, or Holy Ganga's page on Hinduism. That is why Hinduism pages cannot even maintain their FA status. That is the reason we do not find any improvement in Hinduism pages, and there is no one else to blame for this but ourselves. Aupmanyav 13:27, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

O_O! What are you talking about? The only thing I touched was the removal of some links.--D-Boy 23:05, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

D_Boy, why do take everything so personally? I included your name only as an example. My chief grouse is that the mention that many Hindus are polytheists has been removed without any discussion. I am sure that people have included many silly other things in Hinduism pages. Now, how many times a person can take up the issue again and try to put things right? People should understand that they are spoiling the introduction to Hinduism to millions of people through Wikipedia in this way. Hinduism will always have all kinds of people in its fold, polytheists as well as atheists (like me). I do not know from where some people have picked up this Christian or Islamic trait of exclusivity. Aupmanyav 15:21, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Because you sounded like you were accussing me of changes I did not make. Plus, it feels like we are waging some kind of proganda battle on wikipedia now a days. have you been to the Hindutva section or gujart violence? its being attacked by paks and secularists. even the babri mosque page has gone crazy.--D-Boy 19:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

No I have not been there, will check. This is because we are divided among ourselves. I have started a forum on Wikipedia Hinduism Pages. Will inform you when it is ready to go. I only want that we give equal value to all shades of belief in Hinduism, I am not a polytheist, Tatah kim (so what)? Aupmanyav 07:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

why there is not mention of hindu calender

why there is no mention of hindu calender, i.e. the panchang in this page. it is an indispensable part of our culture and religion. it is also the most accurate callender in the world, better than gregorian versions. nids 20:09, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

At the moment there is only a link under "See Also" to Hindu Calender. Addhoc 20:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)