Jump to content

Talk:Battle of Leyte Gulf

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Gdr (talk | contribs) at 11:40, 24 October 2004 ("Largest" battle). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

What did we get out the battle

Image formatting

So, uh, let's discuss the image instead of instantly reverting? We really need the caption, otherwise the reader just sees a smoke cloud, not exactly informative in the encyclopedic way. The thumb is one way (and has the advantage that it also indicates that the picture can get larger), or we could have a line break and then the caption. But to omit captioning entirely is not the right way to go. Stan 04:03, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It's not ommitted -- it appears when you hoover the mouse over the picture. And the reason I changed it is because this (as the article stands now) is the standard battlebox format (you can find the whole writeup at Wikipedia:WikiProject Battles). →Raul654 04:06, Aug 6, 2004 (UTC)
Hmm, I see at least one other person who objected to the lack of captions in the template, but no response to that point. Hovering is going to look pretty funny for a multi-line caption! But I'll let the caption project folks fight that battle :-) Stan 04:37, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)
There was never any final agreement on rules for images in the battlebox. They obviously look better un-thumbnailed and captionless so probably only self-explanatory images should go in the battlebox. There's certainly no rule saying if an article only has one image, that has to go in the battlebox. Geoff/Gsl 05:21, 6 Aug 2004 (UTC)

"Largest" battle

After the initial vandalism, I checked again and it seems there are battles with more ships and possibly more "men" in ancient history. However, there doesn't seem to be much doubt in terms of the area covered and the tonnage. Grant65 (Talk) 22:10, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

Actium defintely had more ships, and I suspect Salamis did too. But number of men is a bit iffy. →Raul654 22:15, Oct 13, 2004 (UTC)

I deemed that there would be a need for a page for this issue, so please see Largest Naval Battle in History. Rather than having an endles rambling about men, ships, aircraft, tonnage, time, and surface area in every article you can now refer directly to that page. At least when I created the page it made no comment asto what actually is the largest battle. My aim was to present facts and allow readers to form their own opinions. I don't think there is a definite answer for this question. Chino

Chino, is it you that us repeatedly removing the mention of tonnage and area in the opening sentence? I would like whoever it is to explain why they are doing that. I don't see how there can be any question about Leyte being the largest battle in terms of these.
Also, my last edit included the link to Largest naval battle in history. I think it's better style to work the link into the sentence rather than have it in brackets.Grant65 (Talk) 14:58, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

I have changed the only text once, but I have followed "the battle" with amusement :-) I actually agree with the person who came up with the idea that Leyte is the second largest naval battle in history, altough his/her claims about the Battle of Aegates Islands are clearly wrong. But I also know that such a large portion of Wiki users are American that the truth would invariably disappear :-) My opinion is that both Leyte and Ecnomus pages should state that the battle _may_ be concidered the largest in history and then have a link to the Largest naval battle in history. That page should, in my opinion, provide the facts and let people themselves make up their minds. This is, as I think we all agree, a matter of opinion. To compromise my latest edit of Leyte (which might not survive the next ten minutes) mentions both the "tonnage" and "number of ships" issue. This makes the beginning of the page quite cumbersome... I still prefer "Often regarded as largest" and link to page with info for those who really like to know what "often" means in this context. Chino

I'm not happy about Ecnomus being mentioned in the Leyte article. I think the link to "largest naval battle" is enough. That way if people search for "largest naval battle" they will go straight to that page, and not to the Leyte or Ecnomus pages. I doubt that people interested in either Leyte or Ecnomus are very interested in the other battle. Grant65 (Talk) 16:05, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)
Since there do not seem to be any objections from registered users, can I ask that the direct reference to Ecnomus be removed from the page? (How strange would it look if Leyte was mentioned on Battle of Ecnomus?) Grant65 (Talk) 22:34, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

The current version is my attempt for a compromise. As I said, it is cumbersome. In my opinion it all boils down to "generally considered". Most people read it as "most probably is". The meaning we should convey is that Leyte is "one of the two candidates for the largest naval battle in history". Probably not in those words, tough. The whole discussion seems to be more about definitions and wording than facts. Chino

I don't think it is "one of two candidates" in terms of tonnage and area. And I don't think that is a "cumbersome" definition. I think you need to show why Ecnomus should be mentioned on the Leyte page.Grant65 (Talk) 11:40, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

Conceptually, I don't think there is a problem with mentioning Ecnomus - it's very common for article to namedrop topics with some kind of connection, and indeed that is one of the "value-adds" of being hyperlinked. But first I would like to see some citations of professional historians stating anything about relative sizes, rather than random people making claims on their own - very slender - authority. I'm on the road, so my own library is not at hand, but will be home in a couple days and able to consult relevant works. Stan 16:22, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

"At the most basic level, it is hardly possible to form a clear notion of how battles were fought. Professor Lazenby remarks that "we do not even know exactly what a quinquereme was". He is too optimistic. We do not even know approximately what a quinquereme was, except that it was the principal warship on both sides and had a name derived from five somethings having to do with oars."[1]"

If the prime source is official Roman budget records, then we are not talking about the records of a liberal democracy. There are good reasons for the size of both Roman and Carthaginian fleets to be exaggerated. For example, to hide corruption and incompetence. Whereas the accounts of Leyte Gulf have been arrived at by cross-referencing sources from several countries. Grant65 (Talk) 04:40, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

I vote for this article having something like

probably/possibly/generally considered/etc the largest naval battle in history

and leaving the detailed arguments and other candidates to that article. Or even nothing at all. It would be better to put some work into expanding the account of the battle than warring over trivia like this! Gdr 21:59, 2004 Oct 23 (UTC)

Why has protected status been removed? The people who wanted Ecnomus mentioned in the frst paragraph have not consented with the present version and they will no doubt do their stuff again.Grant65 (Talk) 10:13, Oct 24, 2004 (UTC)
I asked for protection to be removed because I wanted to write something about the battle. It's only one sentence in the introduction, after all, and it's not wholly objectionable, so I think we can live with the Ecnomus enthusiasts. Eventually they will go away and the reference can be removed. Gdr 11:40, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

Image shows burning ship, but it is not mentioned it the article

There is picture of burning USS Princeton, but no single loss is mentioned on US side. Could we make a bit better balanced article? saigon_from_europe

Miscellany

There should be a link in here about the USS ''Leyte Gulf'' (CG-55), and maybe other information on naval craft named after people in the battle. Mtnerd 03:45, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Japanese characters

This article contained the following Japanese characters (in context):

I removed the characters because I think they don't add anything to the article. This is an English-language encyclopedia, so we can expect few people to read Japanese characters. It is better to provide transliteration instead because that will be accessible to all readers. Gdr 10:24, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)