Talk:Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty

Does the plot detail need to be so friggin' long and, well, detailed? It is essentially a walkthrough without the helpful parts at this moment.

Yes, we've been here before. Check the History, about two years ago the plot detail was pretty much the novelisation of the game. Cut it back down, folks. Try to fit it into four paragraphs, one per "act" plus the tanker chapter.

Perception of Reality

I recently completed Metal Gear Solid 2 and tried to find an analysis on its interesting issues about perception of reality, but didn't see it in the Plout Outline. Even though it was mentioned in "Fan Reaction", wouldn't the perception of reality by Jack and what surrounds him be an integral part of the storyline? The last 2 hours primarily revolve around that and Snake gives a whole lecture on it. Zero_ April 16th-ish.

Uh gosh

The name Daniel Quinn is the ostensible narrator of Paul Auster's "City of Glass", part of the New York Trilogy, who at various points in the book assumes the psuedonyms "Max Work" and "William Wilson". Peter Stillman is another character in the book. THAT'S WEIRD. Someone work this into the page proper please. And all the other references. Because that would be clever.

yeah, not only that, but the whole "it's all a simulation" meta-fiction/meta-game move resonates with the themes of City of Glass, as well. in the book, peter stillman raises his son (also peter stillman) in a dark room with no sensory stimuli, and no human interaction; he's hoping that peter the son will grow up speaking the language of adam--a kind of Ur-language where there is no distinction between sign and signifier--a language that is not a mere model or simulation of "reality" but is in fact "reality" itself.

Please

The post above is correct, someone make it a plot synopsis not a plot detail. We want an article not the great american novel. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 14:24, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

yeah, not only that, but the whole "it's all a simulation" meta-fiction/meta-game move resonates with the themes of City of Glass, as well.

Both MGS and MGS2 shown in 2000?

"As with Metal Gear Solid, the trailer for this game was shown at the 2000 E³ to critical acclaim."

the trailers for both MGS and MGS2 were shown at E3 2000? i think this is trying to say that they were both shown at E3, but not durring the same year. this should be reworded or somthing.

Success?

I went ahead and put the far more appropriate plot summary from Metal Gear in place of the existing one. I'd rather have a second opinion before de-tagging it for cleanup, though. <Sockatume><T>

Quotes?

I was was wondering if we could add a quotes section to the page. Thanks

I've put a link to wikiquote on here, the quotes can go in that Sockatume 22:27, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Otacon: Snake were on a mission now quit fooling around!

Link to ending analysis

http://junkerhq.net/MGS2/index.html

I think this is a long and detailed explanation of the ending of the game and I think deserves to be added to the link section, even quoted to the main article...

It's already there in the "Fan Reaction" section. Sockatume, Talk 17:43, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Film references in names

He is aided by his girlfriend Rosemary as data manager (the couple's names, Jack and Rose, refer to the protagonists of the film Titanic, just as Hal and Dave appeared in the first MGS title), Colonel Roy Campbell as mission command, and a number of other on-site specialists, including SEAL Team 10 Lt. JG Iroquois Pliskin (instantly recognizable as Solid Snake in mufti, and another name reminsicent of a film character, this time Kurt Russell's Snake Plissken from the Escape from L.A. and Escape from New York movies).

I've edited that section, but I'm not really happy with it. If someone could condense it (perhaps moving all the film links to after the list of names, or even to a different section, article or removing them entirely) it could read much less awkwardly. --Nick R 01:19, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Bridge

I thought the bridge in the first chapter was the Verrazano Narrows Bridge? or is that where he is picked up off the ship?

The jump bridge was the George Washington. Verrazano was supposed to be the extraction point. TotalTommyTerror 20:31, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

Deleting certain parts

I'm deleting the part where it says that the president's secret service security were cut from the game. After you meet the president (I think or somewhere around that time) there will be gaurds in alert mode that are fully flanked in heavy armor that don't have a russian accent. If these gaurd pertain to something else-- my fault. (Name? I have no name. 23:01, 10 December 2005 (UTC))

On the loop holes section, Snake is not using Seal team 10's or an enemy gun. He brought that with him when he infiltrated the plant. After all, he wouldn't go in there with just a pea-shooter. It is never metioned that guns other than guard's have a biometric code. (Name? I have no name. 16:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC))

It is one of the best games!

What do you think.

It's a good game, but I think It's the weak link of the Metal Gear Solid series. (Anonymous)

What I think is that people should take a look at the help section of Wikipedia before "posting" blatant, inappropriate, and completely random comments about how much they like something in the Talk page. Get my drift? Village Baka 08:08, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Pretty Woman

I dont know if this is appropriate, but Julia Roberts supposed favorite game (according to PBS, which is pretty respected) is MGS2

http://www.pbs.org/kcts/videogamerevolution/arcade/celebrity/celebrity.html Question#1

If you take (or just submit) that quiz, it actually says Halo is the right answer. And no, this isn't really appropriate. - DoubleCross 13:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Deleting an unconfirmed part

The following phrase

The reason Liquid Snake is able to manifest in Ocelot's body is revealed in Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater. Ocelot's father, The Sorrow, was a spirit medium and he passed this ability down to his son.

should not be listed here. The reason Liquid Snake is able to manifest himself in Ocelot's body is not confirmed. There are a number of ways he could have done this, one of the more prominent reasons being that his own will to live is keeping him alive.

Again, I'd like to reitarate that no where was it stated in the game or outside of the game (except by speculating fans) that this ability was passed down to Ocelot. (anonymous)

We can add the TRUE reason for Liquid's manifestations when it is revealed in MGS4. Kojima stated that, among other things, "The truth about Ocelot's arm" will be revealed. Until then, keep it to the fansite forums. Village Baka 08:05, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it is indeed due to Ocelot's inhereted ability as a medium that Liquid can take over Ocelot. Read issue 4 of the IDW Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty comic books for proof.

Any supplemental details provided by the IDW comic books are noncanon as the story has been revised by Alex Garner. Hense, there is no proof. Nitroid

OTHER

Sorry to interrupt, but a friend of mine told me about a Metal Gear game where the game wigged out, goes into Nintendo mode, and tells you to reset the game in order to screw you over. Is this the game? He also mentioned something about naked cartwheels.

Yeah this is the one (The Bread 07:29, 22 April 2006 (UTC))

Thats when the the colonel starts to act a little strange because of the gw (which is an A.I>) was infected with emma's personal virus, And well, i dont really wanna tell you the rest if u havent already beat it yourself!

Enemies

Do you think we should add a enemies list or something? We could then mention the mysterious M4 armed soldiers you occasionally encounter.

Yes, i think we should totally do so as i have encountered those m4 bastards myself..!!!

Raiden, Snake, King Kong and Godzilla

If you read the Trivia section, you'll find a bullet that says how Raiden is similar to Godzilla and Snake is similar to King Kong. Is there any point to that and is there any article or something that says the writers or producers intended it to be a comparison to Raiden or Snake? If someone can provide a valid source, I'll put it back in but I'm deleting it for now. --Tuspm 19:53, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is stated by Kojima in the "Making of the Hollywood Game" documentary on the bonus DVD that came with the PAL versions of Metal Gear Solid 2. - DoubleCross 16:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Merge Proposal

Can we merge Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance into this article? Metal Gear Solid: Integral is dealt with with on the main Metal Gear Solid page. It's not a whole new game. We could just add a section with a separate infobox and information about what was added. Ace of Sevens 05:43, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly Agree While Substance features a hideously large number of bonus missions, there's no reason to seperate Substance from Sons of Liberty, as they're essentially the same game with one (Substance) featuring more in the way of bonus material. Lankybugger 14:34, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I was planning to do just that when I got around to working on this article. Of course, I was also the one that merged Integral. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 21:52, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

• Agree, only if the same is done for Subsitence and Snake Eater (The Bread 03:41, 22 July 2006 (UTC))

• Strongly Disagree Whilst it still contains the original "Sons of Liberty" game, Substance is essentially a DIFFERENT GAME. It has different box art, was released at a different time, and has a different title. The same could not be said about Metal Gear Solid: Special Missions, since that was an add-on pack which required the orginal game to run, and was released at the same time as the original. Substance, and in fact Subsistence, are different games; they do not require the orginal, and they released completely separate. I think the only thing we should do is add a section to the article on the "Sons of Liberty" article entitled "Substance"; this section will inlude a brief few-line description about Substance, and a link to the Substance article. --ChaosSorcerer91 19:45, 7 August 2006 (GMT)
  • You may be interested to see Resident Evil (video game), which also covers all of that game's various variations in one article. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
    • But surely all the versions of Resident Evil are just versions of the same game. Substance and Sons of Liberty are different games completely. --ChaosSorcerer91 14:05, 8 August 2006 (GMT)
      • Substance is the same game with some extras added. The majority of what one can say about SOL is true of Substance, and vice versa. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 13:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
        • Okay, I get what you're saying. Fair enough. It is a different version of the original. Even so, Substance and Subsistence both have enough information about them individually to create a new article. Metal Gear Solid: Integral and the different versions of Resident Evil only create a few paragraphs, so I can understand that. But there's at at least two and half pages worth of stuff on the Substance article. --ChaosSorcerer91 14:22, 8 August 2006 (GMT)

• Agree'. Substance is Sons of Liberty with extras tacked on. It's not a seperate entity in terms of story, merely packaging. Those changes can be dealt with in the article for SoL, just as any other multi-release game, just like Dead or Alive 2 (which includes Hardcore in its article and should probably include Ultimate too). And yeah, Subsistence should be merged into Snake Eater as well, but one shouldn't be contingent on the other. --Le Scoopertemp [tk] 03:38, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Fission Mailed

"Fission Mailed" (that moronic internet variation on "Mission Failed") just redirects to the MGS2 page. Weird. Kestrel 23:58, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

That's because it's a reference to a fake "Game Over" scene from MGS2. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 03:31, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

{{cvgproj|class=start|importance=Low}}

Who decides that the importance is low? I think it is atleast mid. ILovePlankton 02:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Fan Reaction Section

"Interestingly, his voice in the original Japanese version was a low baritone, almost deeper than that of Snake himself. In contrast to the American reception, Raiden was quite popular in Japan. This was partly due to his deeper voice and because an androgynous appearance is generally more acceptable in Japanese pop culture."

I edited the preceeding paragraph (I simply changed the words "was quite popular" to "wasn't as heavily criticized", because as the linked article at http://www.geocities.com/muni_shinobu/mg/topic/030122.html clearly says "Raiden wasn't all that well received either, but the complaint was never really about Raiden personally").

However just a few minutes later (just a coincidence I suppose) the entire paragraph was removed: "rm junk sourced to a GC site (it's been removed several times from Raiden's article)". Can this be elaborated on? Aside from being incorrect in stating that Raiden is "quite popular" in Japan, I see no reason to delete the paragraph. The first sentence about Raiden having a deep voice in the Japanese version should definitely stay in. I've frequently heard complaints about Quinton Flynn's voice as Raiden, and it should be pointed out that Kojima didn't cast such a voice in the Japanese version (Kojima didn't handle the translation, localization, and English voice casting, of course).

Also, the following sentence doesn't make sense to me: "Furthermore, some felt that the game was self-indulgent, with dialogue that ran on too long, heightened by a somewhat out-of-their-league English translation." Was the translation out of the dialogue's league? What does this mean, exactly? (And why is "out-of-their-league" used instead of "out-of-its-league"?) And how did the translation specifically "heighten" the perceived self-indulgence of the game? -71.80.31.42 07:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

It's wholly unsourced. If you can come up with a source that isn't someone's Geocities site, please feel free to replace it. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:34, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. Kojima stated in a 1up interview something like "see, there are some people in Japan who actually like Raiden." (It's linked to in the Raiden article; I'll have to find it.) This should at least show that Raiden was more well-received (or at least "not as heavily criticized") in Japan. The first sentence though shouldn't need a source, I don't think (anyone can play the Japanese version of MGS2 and quickly realize the huge difference between Kenyu Horiuchi and Quinton Flynn's voices). However I'm not going to put back the last sentence as it's merely opinion that the deeper voice and androgynous appearance led to increased popularity in Japan. -71.80.31.42 07:50, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

"That source doesn't mention the source, and Kojima is hardly an impartial observer". The source is the article (what do you mean "doesn't mention the source"?). If I didn't do the citation correctly then you should have fixed it (WP:CITE says "If you don't know how to format the citation, others will fix it for you").

And Kojima should know what the reaction to his game was. Other articles have referenced Kojima interviews before (in fact, this "non-impartial observer" is used as a source in the next paragraph in the article). There's no reason why the statement shouldn't be removed. If you don't like how it sounds then edit it to something like "However Kojima has made the implication that Raiden is more liked among Japanese players than among Western players." It sounds like you merely have some bias here (shown by the fact that you rerferred to the paragraph as "junk" when you first removed it). Can someone else back me up on this?

And once again I'm putting the first sentence back in, because like I said before it's an obvious fact that Kenyu Horiuchi has a deeper voice which anyone can observe by playing the game, and there's no reason for you to keep deleting it, unless you're just trying to censor facts you don't want others to hear.

If you're going to delete something again, give a clear explanation here ("that source doesn't mention the source" is hardly clear). -71.80.31.42 18:17, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, that source doesn't mention the voice, and Kojima has a vested interest in not describing his own work negatively. Would we cite Bill Gates saying "Microsoft is well-liked"? - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The source of the statement about the voice is the game itself. To say that Kenyu Horiuchi has a deeper voice than Quinton Flynn is a fact which can be observed by anyone who plays both versions of MGS2. It's not a subjective viewpoint. If I state that some song is in a lower key than some other song, would I have to cite a NY Times article to prove this? Of course not, because anyone could listen to the two songs to tell which is in a lower key, just as anyone who isn't deaf can tell that Horiuchi's voice is lower than Flynn's. No need to apologize for that, I'll revert it myself.

And the second statement about Kojima having "a vested interest in not describing his own work negatively" is purely assumption on your part. Kojima even states in that interview that "the fans didn't like Raiden". However Kojima would be more qualified to make such statements than almost anyone, since he created the games himself and he knows how the games were received among fans. He even states that the reason for creating Raikov in MGS3 was to appease both Raiden fans and haters alike.

However since you seem to believe that Kojima is lying, I'll add that sentence back in the form of something like "However, according to Kojima, many of the Japanese players actually like Raiden." That's merely stating what Kojima said in an interview, and nothing more, so you have no reason whatsoever to remove it. It's very relevant to the section of this article as it shows how Raiden was received in the eyes of some Japanese players, at least according to the creator of the game. If I don't do the citation correctly, feel free to fix the citation, but don't remove the statement unless you can prove to me that it doesn't belong in there, as I have clearly showed that there's no reason to remove it. -71.80.31.42 03:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Saying that Japanese gamers liked Raiden better because of his lower voice is OR. Just saying his voice was lower is inane but sourcable. If you're attributing the comments to Kojima, that's not a problem.

I'm just sick of all this "Japanese gamers loved Raiden, American games hated him," with only the weakest sourcing if any at all. Per WP:V, I will continue removing unsourced junk on sight. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 04:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

There's nothing that needs to be sourced which isn't already sourced. The only thing I've added is that Kojima stated that "many Japanese players actually liked Raiden". The reader can decide whether Kojima has a "vested interest" or not. And the part about voice, as I said, is an observable fact. I didn't even say anthing such as "Raiden had a higher voice is America which is why everybody there hates him." I merely stated that his voice was deeper in the original Japanese version.

And if you paid attention you would see that I don't want to perpetrate that idea about Raiden either. I original changed the words "was quite popular" because it was misleading. If you have a problem with the idea that Raiden wasn't as hated in Japan, though, that's your problem. Not only did the original Geocities page make that implication, but Kojima has done the same. Nevertheless, I simply added to the article what Kojima said, leaving it up to the reader to draw any conclusions they may. Per WP:NPOV there is no reason why the statement by Kojima should be removed, as it is not "junk", as you seem to think. -71.80.31.42 04:44, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, anonymous editor. This issue is very well handled now. Ace of Sevens 05:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)