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August 1

"Even" in German

How do I say "even" in German? For example, "she wasn't even there", or "did you even know her?" I have thought it was something like "eins" or "einst" but I can't find any examples of it. JIP | Talk 08:55, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no single word having the same meaning, it depends on the context. Sie war [noch] nicht einmal da, kanntest Du sie überhaupt? In other cases, other words would be correct, e.g., "even more" = noch mehr, "even I am confused" = sogar ich bin verwirrt.--gwaihir 09:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To break even= ausgleichen, am Übergang zum Gewinn stehend (as in Breakeven), but I think this is a little farfetched. Lectonar 09:15, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bond, James Bond

This is probably the most famous example of what I see as a film cliche. Someone is asked their name, and they give their surname, then their first name and surname again. It was extremely common in westerns when they were standard fare, but it appears in all kinds of movies. Trouble is, I've never heard anybody in real life ever answer the question that way. People just either give their first name, or both names, but not both. Is this a reflection of something peculiar to American custom, or is it just a cliche that bears little relation to reality? JackofOz 13:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that James Bond is British, not American. Sorry, I know that doesn't help. -Oatmeal batman 13:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, it does. It illustrates how pervasive the cliche has become. It has spread its tentacles transatlantically. JackofOz 14:06, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Traditionally, a person would be known by their surname, and in some contexts this still is the case. For example, when I book a table at a restaurant, I book it under my surname 'Hughes'. In Wales and some parts of England, my name is fairly common, and I found myself recently having to qualify my booking by saying 'Hughes, Gareth Hughes', so that the restaurant could distinguish me from other people of the same name. I suppose this would happen in all sorts of formal name-giving interactions. However, the name 'Bond' is not really that common. — Gareth Hughes 16:14, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Julian Bond might disagree. Even "J. Bond" isn't enough to distinguish the two. We also have articles on Alan Bond (businessman), Kit Bond, Ruskin Bond, Samantha Bond, and Nigel Bond. StuRat 05:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In America, you would just book your table under the name "Gareth", which is there an extremely rare first name so no further disambiguation would be necessary. When you arrived at the restaurant, you'd probably find they had written down "Garrett" instead. User:Angr 08:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

At the time the James Bond novels were written, it would have been less than completely polite to have introduced yourself in elevated social circles as "James Bond". "Bond, James Bond" is a much more polite form as 007 would have been well aware. (This was at a time when, if he were married, his wife would be introduced by others as "Mrs. James Bond"; it's not so very long ago that this was abandoned at Wimbledon.) Notinasnaid 09:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The whole point of a catchphrase is that it while it is comprehensible, it's not something that one often says in real life (a non-distinctive catchphrase wouldn't catch). Henry ^Flower 09:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I seem to have set myself up for failure with this one, by drawing attention to James Bond and his ubiquitous catchphrase. It's not about Bond, or even a particularly British thing. It is still an extremely common occurrence in American movies that have nothing to do with Britain. Westerns were full of it: "What's your name, pardner?" ... "Earp, Wyatt Earp" - or some such variation. JackofOz 23:52, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This reminds me of a Night Court episode where the lawyer is in Alaska or something and introduces himself as "Dan, Dan Fielding", and the natives then refer to him as "Dan Dan Fielding". Adam Bishop 02:06, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Consider the case of Major Major in Heller's Catch-22, who when asked his name presumably had to reply "Major, Major Major", and following his induction and subsequent commission in the army would have had to say "Major Major, Major Major Major". Lexo 14:39, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is taking the concept to new heights. JackofOz 01:41, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese Name Order

What is the standard order of Japanese names on Wikipedia? Family name -> Given name? The other way around? If anyone can give some insight, I would appreciate it. -Oatmeal batman 13:56, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(Japan-related_articles)#Names. --Ptcamn 13:57, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! -Oatmeal batman 14:17, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My Japanese friend's name in Japanese characters is surname, then given name. - Random Person

Biblical names in Hebrew

I've been wondering why the names of biblical characters on Wikipedia such as King David, Samuel etc. are given first in modern Hebrew (called "standard Hebrew"), and then in Tiberian Hebrew? After all, Tiberian Hebrew is the closest we come to the original biblical Hebrew pronuncuation. This seems to me like the analogue of using the modern Italian rendition of Julius Caesar (Giulio Cesare) before the classical Latin one 'gaɪ.us 'jul.ius 'kaɪ.sar, or the modern Greek rendition of Homer as Omiros before the classical Greek one Hómēros.--194.145.161.227 14:36, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the Tiberian pronunciation differed in a significant number of details from the pronunciation of 1000 B.C. To start with, there was no spirantization of stops in 1000 B.C., and probably no vowel reduction or seghol epenthesis or "tone lengthening" (or at least not in anything like the fully developed form in which these phenomena are found in Tiberian), and there could have very well have been numerous surviving remnants of the case vowels. AnonMoos 15:25, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The standard pronunciation of the Bible — Tiberian Hebrew — was developed by the Masoretes. It is likely that this pronunciation differed from that of the Biblical Hebrew language (poor article!), and a number of hypotheses exist about the reconstruction of Biblical Hebrew in various stages. I suppose Modern Hebrew pronunciation is included because biblical names form the basis for many personal names in Israel. — Gareth Hughes 16:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe, but that's hardly a sufficient reason, especially for placing the Modern Hebrew version first. Yes, I know that Tiberian Hebrew isn't exactly the same as Biblical Hebrew at various stages between 1200 and 500 BC, but it's the only complete and (nearly) certain system of pronunciation we have. I don't have much literature on Biblical themes, but an encyclopedia of mythology, a work on Phoenician mythology and a recent Russian work that I have all use the Tiberian forms. So - would anyone object to the Tiberian forms being moved before the modern ones (if the modern ones must be kept at all, which I suppose can't be avoided)? --194.145.161.227 16:53, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Both the Modern hebrew and the tiberian hebrew are pronuonced the same way. The difference is the characters. The Hebrew presented is in Hebrew characters that are very old (around 200 BCE, there were older scripts which basically was a different font). Tiberian hebrew is using written symbols came into use in the early Middle Ages that show how to pronounce the word. The pronunciation is the same for the tiberian hebrew as it is for the modern hebrew it is just a different way of showing it for people who cannot read Hebrew script. Jon513 00:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That's not exactly true. For example, Tiberian Hebrew is supposed to be pronounced with a distinction between short and long vowels, with a separate ayin sound as in modern Arabic, with a number of spirants (gh, dh, th), with a schwa sound, with "waw" as in "will" rather than "vice", with teth and tsade pronounced as emphatic/pharyngealized consonants as in modern Arabic (rather than as t, ts), etc. All of this is absent in modern Hebrew. --194.145.161.227 00:56, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. For the example of "David" (דָּוִד), the Tiberian pronunciation was probably /dɔːˈwiːð/, while the Modern pronunciation is /daˈvid/. User:Angr 08:12, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

North American wild turkeys

Could you please tell me what a group of North American wild turkeys is called? Is it a flock, gaggle, or herd? I've checked everywhere I could on your search area. Thank you very much for your time.

List of animal names says a group of turkeys is called a rafter or a flock. digfarenough (talk) 22:16, 1 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would have called them a "gobble", or maybe even a "franklin", after Ben's desire to make them the US national bird (instead of the bald eagle). StuRat 05:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So at christmas you yanks would gobble up quite a few gobbles. Gobble gobbling. :) DirkvdM 11:33, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, a single turkey is a gobbler. And we eat them at Thanksgiving, not Christmas. User:Angr 13:37, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We eat turkey on Christmas too, but that's Canada, and there is much more time between the two holidays. Adam Bishop 15:29, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We eat them at Christmas, too, though lately we've gone to roast beef. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes for Christmas it is a big smoked ham — Michael J 22:44, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pfft! Ham is for New Year's! :) User:Zoe|(talk) 23:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No way, ham is for Easter! Adam Bishop 01:58, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, no, no! Ham is for Christmas, black-eyed peas are for New Years, and lamb is for Easter. User:Angr 07:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Lucky me, I'm not religious, so I always eat what I like. Freedom! :) DirkvdM 07:33, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chicken or quorn at Christmas and Easter, fish supper on The Twelfth, obviously! ;) - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 08:50, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

August 2

New term

Yes, hello. I would very much like to contribute a new slang term of a drink into wikipedia. What exactly am I to do at the "sandbox"? It is only a place with more links.

Thanks.

Take a look at Wikipedia:Avoid neologisms, and you'll discover that Wikipedia is not the place to list new slang terms. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 01:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
For slang terms it's better this site.--RiseRover|^talk 20:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Translation to any language would be appreciated

Hi.

I'm the founder of a new wiki on Wikia called Pen Pal Wiki. It's a multilingual pen pal directory, with the primary aim of helping people to get in contact with people in other languages, although you can get pen pals in your own language too (feel free to check it out).

Anyway, I would like to have as many different languages available as possible, meaning that I need to have some basic translations for each language. So, if you know a language (other than English, French and Dutch, which have already been done), and can spare the time, please translate the following phrases, as well as providing me the name of the language in that language, in both the characters of that language and English characters, and the English name of that language (eg. 日本語, Nihongo, Japanese). If you're unsure of the context but need to know to correctly translate it, have a look at Pen Pal Wiki.

Welcome to the (name of language) section of Pen Pal Wiki!
If you're looking for penpals in another language, you should also go to the Main Page and choose the language you want to correspond in.
If you're looking for penpals in English, please choose a page:
Under 18
Over 18
Mature (for older adults who would prefer to correspond with other older adults, as opposed to people in their early twenties)
Schools
Links
Click here to add yourself to this page
Under 18s only
Over 18s only
Adults only
Teachers only

And I think that's all for now. Thanks heaps if you translate these phrases for me. Markdarb 04:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For Esperanto:

Bonvenon al la Esperanta sekcio de Pen Pal Wiki!
Se vi estas serĉanta por korespondantoj, kiuj parolas alian lingvon, iru en la ĉefpaĝon kaj elektu la lingvon, je kiun vi volas korespondi.
Se vi estas serĉanta por korespondantoj, kiuj parolas Angle, elektu paĝon:
Sub 18
Super 18
Maturuloj (por pliaĝuloj, kiuj preferas korespondi kun aliaj pliaĝuloj, sed ne kun proksimume 20-jara geviroj)*
Lernejoj
Ligiloj
Musklaku ĉi tie por enigi vin en ĉi tiun paĝon.
Sole sub 18
Sole super 18
Sole plenaĝuloj
Sole instruistoj

* This a rough translation, basically: "For older people who prefer to correspond with other older people, but not with approximately 20-year-old people."

(Feel free to correct this, I did it in a hurry.) --π! 06:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For Spanish:

Bienvenidos al sección español de Pen Pal Wiki!
Si esta buscando por amigos del plumas en otra idioma, debe ir a la portada principal también, y elegir la idioma que quere coresponder.
Si esta buscando por amigos del plumas en inglés, favor elege un página:
Más de 18 años
Menos de 18 años
Maduro (por adultos más viejo que preferiría con adultos más viejo, y no qieren hablar con personas en sus vientes tempranos.)
Escuelas
Acoplamientos
Enciende aquí para anadir tuyo mismo a esto página.
Más de 18 años soló
Menos de 18 años soló
Adultos soló
Profesores/as soló

I'm not quite up on my 'web' vocabulary. Could someone check that for me? --69.138.61.168 08:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For Finnish:

Tervetuloa Pen Pal Wikin suomenkieliselle alueelle!
Jos etsit kirjekavereita muulla kielellä, sinun tulee mennä Pääsivulle ja valita kieli, jolla haluat viestiä.
Jos etsit suomenkielisiä kirjekavereita, valitse sivu:
Alle 18 vuotta
Yli 18 vuotta
Kypsä ikä (vanhemmille aikuisille, jotka haluavat mieluummin keskustella muiden vanhempien aikuisten, kuin kaksikymppisten ihmisten kanssa)
Koulut
Linkit
Klikkaa tästä lisätäksesi itsesi tälle sivulle
Vain alle 18-vuotiaille
Vain yli 18-vuotiaille
Vain aikuisille
Vain opettajille

I think I can do it in Swedish too, but I prefer to leave it to a native speaker. JIP | Talk 08:11, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll give a Swedish translation, then, but the page would soon be cluttered with responses:

Välkommen till den svenska avdelningen av Pen Pal Wiki!
Om du söker brevvänner i ett annat språk, kan du gå till huvudsidan och välja språket du vill brevväxla i.
Om du söker engelskspråkiga brevvänner, välj en sida:
Under 18
Över 18
Mogen (För äldre som vill brevväxla med andra äldre, till skillnad från personer i yngre 20-års-åldern)
Skolor
Länkar
Tryck här för att lägga till dig på sidan
Endast under 18
Endast över 18
Endast vuxna
Endast lärare

That's okay, although I think it sounds slightly stiff and formal, but then, translations often do. 惑乱分からん 08:22, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, wait. Is the part that says "penpals in English" supposed to always say "in English" or "in whatever language this is"? I've written "in Finnish" above. If you really mean "in English", then use englanninkielisiä instead of suomenkielisiä. JIP | Talk 08:27, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't an answer to your question, but if I were setting up a pen-pal site, I wouldn't divide it into "under 18" and "over 18." Shouldn't a 17-year-old college freshman be able to communicate with a 19-year-old sophomore? Why not just call the categories "youth" and "adult" or something to allow for more flexibility? -- Mwalcoff 23:17, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about the inclusion of mature, either. Perhaps it would be simpler if you just added your age and gender on registering, and search between age groups later. Having said that, I wouldn't bother more with this until I see a working Wiki at the link. 惑乱分からん 09:26, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a bad link. The wiki is here. --π! 15:40, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all those translations, I'll get round to adding them some time soon. The suggestions are appreciated too. Anyone else, feel free to add some translations too! Markdarb 09:02, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

old wine in new bottle

what does the usage "old wine in new bottle" mean? I find that 'no body puts old wine in new bottle as old wine taste better. the phrase is used in different context and meaning now. can sone one clarify?

Some, very good, wines age well. But most of them go off in a few years. So old wine isn't automatically desirable, and might actually be undrinkable. In a new bottle, would you know? Notinasnaid 09:02, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on it, though not a very good one: The Patch and the Wineskins. Henry ^Flower 09:19, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant section says "no-one wants to drink new wine immediately after they have tasted wine that has aged; new wine isn't poured into old wineskin(s) because there is a risk of them splitting and so spilling the content; and similarly no-one adds old wine to new wineskin(s) because it would run the risk of ruining the taste". It is an odd article. Skittle 17:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hold on, consider the tale of the sneaky restauranteur. Say couple A dines at a restaurant; they order a bottle of wine, eat their meal, and leave without finishing the bottle. Then, the sneaky restauranteur takes the unfinished "old" wine and combines it with couple B's unfinished "old" wine: puts it in a "new" bottle and serves it to couple C. Doesn't that justify the saying, "old wine in new bottles?" 7 August 2006

crossword help

could u help me with these clues

looming large in the public eye (4-7)(*i*****F*L*)

proverbially plain handle of old weapon (9)

towards the aft (3)

repeating Sequence (5)

of ancient greek site (of original games) (7)

show of sorrow (6)

average -means of communication (6)

old covering now considered hazardous (4-5)

conjecture -risky investment in hope of big profits (11)

be in then out (of fashion)(4,3,2)

authoritive doctrine (5)

your help will be appreciated

"of ancient greek site (of original games) (7)" should surely be Olympic. "conjecture -risky investment in hope of big profits (11)" -- speculation. "be in then out (of fashion)(4,3,2)" -- come and go. "authoritive doctrine (5)" -- my guess would be dogma. --Tkynerd 13:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Dogma = Politically correct term for a mother dog. :-) StuRat 07:12, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

father (5) it is not padre /daddy/beget is there any other word

Try "pater". StuRat 07:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

wipe out (7)

It is difficult when you don't give us any clues about the letters at all, but I'd guess that "average - means of communication" is MEDIUM, Btw, I'm an ESL speaker myself, and I usually find English crosswords difficult. Btw, is "equence" a typo for "sequence"? 惑乱分からん 14:09, 2 August 2006 (UTC)oops damn the gremlins in the keyboard[reply]

father = pater?

wipe out = abolish, expunge, or rescind?

handle of old weapon = pikestaff

--Shantavira 15:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hm.. old covering = "lead paint"? repeating sequence = "cycle"? doctrine = "edict"? father = "breed"? I'm better at these given the cross letters.. digfarenough (talk) 17:47, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

THINK LOGICALLY (6) (**A*O*)

EX -KING OF JORDAN (7) (**S*E*N)

annoy (3) (**K)

SENSELESS TALK (7) (T*A*D*H)

looming large in the public eye (4-7)(*i*****F*L*)

u guys are good at this stuff!!!

annoy - irk, king of Jordan - Hussein think logically - reason. Please sign your queries with the --~~~~ as requested at the top of the page. --LarryMac 19:05, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure your letters for 'senseless talk' are correct? Because it could be TWADDLE.--Anchoress 20:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

high-profile? --Seejyb 22:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

is in't there any other word for ,'senseless talk

Well the problem is there aren't too many words in English that have D_H. WiDTH, breaDTH, uh...? Are you sure about the 'D'?--Anchoress 04:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

actualltyanchoress u were right it is twaddle, it was a mistake made by me

Sweet!--Anchoress 05:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK, we have helped out with crossword clues several times in the last few weeks, I think the least you could do would be to follow our conventions as requested, and please Sign Your Posts. You don't even have to type the characters yourself, just click on them right underneath the posting box, where it says Sign your name:. I'm going on crossword strike. --LarryMac 15:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Think logically (6)": REASON --Kjoonlee 03:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Icelandic þ and ð (repost with more info)

I am trying to get people with interest and resources in phonology to comment on whether the Icelandic dental fricatives (corresponding to þ and ð in writing) are not dental at all but rather alveolar. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Phonetics#Icelandic þ and ð. Any help would be appreciated. Stefán Ingi 18:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I have found some references for them being alveolar, based on "Pétursson, M. 1971. Etude de la Réalisation des Consonnes Islandaises p, *, s, dans la Prononciation d'un sujet Islandais à Partir de la Radiocinématographie. Phonetica 23: 203-16.", also [1]. I wanted to ask about the notation, the first book in the google search I have linked to suggests using [ð̠] and [θ̠] but the book is very much about discussing the fine details of phonetics. Is it reasonable to use the unmodified [ð] and [θ] in IPA transcriptions of Icelandic on Wikipedia, as the main features of these sounds are that they are dental-ish non-sibilant fricatives (voiced and unvoiced). For a table of the sounds in Icelandic see Icelandic language#Phonology Stefán Ingi 16:30, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

To repeat my answer from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Phonetics#Icelandic þ and ð, I'd say simple [ð] and [θ] are enough in broad transcription, and even in narrow transcription unless the precise articulation of the sounds is the topic under discussion. User:Angr 17:55, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that they are actually alveolar non-sibilant fricatives, according to Voiced alveolar fricative#The voiced alveolar non-sibilant fricative. Thus, [θ̠] and [ð̠], as Stefán said. Ciacchi 21:03, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

City's Walls

is it: the city's walls or the city walls.

Could be either. What is the context? --LarryMac 19:07, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The city walls were re-built.

Also is is re-built or rebuilt, what about re-settled.

In each case, either is acceptable, but since the hyphenated forms are not necessary I would avoid them. Henry ^Flower 19:51, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The 'g' in Mengele

I just watched the film The Boys from Brazil, in which Josef Mengele is a promominent character. I noticed that the 'g' in the name was pronounced with a glottal stop (I think that's the term for it). This is not the German pronunciation. Amd at first I thought there shouldn't be any problem in English because English also has that 'ng' sound, as in 'banging'. Then again the word 'language' does have a glottal stop. So what is the rule here and why is Mengele mispronounced? (Maybe to piss off the bloody nazi? :) ) DirkvdM 19:14, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's no glottal stop in the word language, but there is a [g] after the [ŋ]. In banging there's just [ŋ] (two of them, in fact), without a [g] after. If you heard English speakers pronounce Mengele with a [g] after the [ŋ], it's probably because in English, it's extremely rare to have [ŋ] in the middle of a word followed by any sound other than [g], unless there is a morpheme boundary (as in bang-ing). Contrast singer, which has a morpheme boundary (sing-er) and no [g], with finger, which has no morpheme boundary and does have [g]. (There are a few exceptions, such as Binghamton, gingham, and dinghy, which have no morpheme boundary but also no [g].) User:Angr 19:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Angr beat me to it, so I'll just add that the voiced velar plosive article explains the English habit.) My experience is the opposite of Dirk's: I had always pronounced Mengele with a plosive, but the people in The Boys from Brazil (which I saw a couple of weeks ago) seemed not to- I remember being surprised by that at the time. Henry ^Flower 20:01, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'd assume a [ŋg] pronunciation, having read the article German phonology without getting any wiser. 惑乱分からん 20:24, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I was unclear. The German pronunciation is definitely [ˈmɛŋələ] with no [g]. User:Angr 10:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I always thought that in Latin American Spanish the letter 'g' before the letters 'e' and 'i' was a velar fricative, or at least a glottal fricative. But of course, they speak Portuguese in Brazil, and i don't know the situation there. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 21:54, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

None of the people in the film are actually Brazilian. ;) Henry ^Flower 21:57, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"g" in that position in Portuguese would be pronounced [ʒ] (like the "s" in measure), but it's a German name, not a Portuguese one, so Portuguese spelling-to-pronunciation rules don't apply. User:Angr 07:10, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Funny that you noticed 'Mengele' being pronounced without a plosive. Maybe different people used different pronunciations and we both only noticed the one we didn't expect. I'm not going to watch the film again just for this, but I've made a note on the tape to check this thread out the next time I do. And about the pronunciation of 'singer'. I believe there is an English dialect in which that is pronounced with a plosive.

Btw, the voiced velar plosive article isn't quite written for laymen like me. This is a common problem on Wikipedia. The experts writing the articles naturally find it difficult to think in the mindset of laymen. We have too much expertise! :) DirkvdM 07:29, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

August 3

Whopper-jawed

When I was a little girl, my mother used to tell me that I looked "whopper-jawed" (or "wopper-jawed") if my skirt was crooked or a button was dangling or my hem was hanging. She'd then straighten me out so I was presentable to the sisters at school.

I've tried to find this word and haven't found anything remotely like it. My grandmother was from West Virginia so I thought Mom might have picked it up there. She also lived in Ohio and Chicago. Mom doesn't remember where she first heard the word. She could be making up hence my failure to find a reference to it.

I'm not sure about the spelling or the hypen. I wondered if it originated with the slur "wop". I'd be grateful if any of you have heard the word before ... period. If you have, if it's used in the same context as above and where it originated.

It's probably a made-up word but I still like it. Thanks in advance. Leener

A "whopper" is a big lie or anything big, like Burger King's big burger. Perhaps being "whopper jawed" meant having a large jaw, which would be an unattractive look for a girl. Thus, it would be a way of saying "you look ugly". StuRat 07:07, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is it related to "whooping"? 惑乱分からん 09:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(Seems not...) 惑乱分からん 10:22, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For starters, the correct spelling is wapper-jawed—assuming that such a word can have a correct spelling... The word wapper is unrelated to whopper or whooping, and was originally a verb meaning "to blink the eyes." Hence wapper-eyed, self-explanatory, and wapper-jawed, which means "having a crooked jaw." It figures. HTH, JackLumber. 12:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"wapper" is a transitive and intransitive verb meaning to shake, or move up and down, or tremble as in totter or being in an unsteady state. This would indicate that being wapper-jawed would indicate a problem with someone's or something's jaw. I had heard the term as a child, pronounced both as "whopper-jawed" and as "wapperjawed", and usually in the context of someone or something with an undershot jaw. I had heard a bulldog, for example, referred to as "a wapper-jawed varmint....". Wapper is also the name of a small baitfish, in the Goby family, and is similar to a carp; some have pronounced undershot lower jaws, and so an undershot jaw on a person or animal might be referred to as wapper-jawed.

Preferred term for Latin Americans, especially those living in the US

I hear three terms a lot, hispanic, latino and chicano. I never use any of them because I'm afraid of causing offence. I've heard that chicano is a pejorative, what about the others? Is there another descriptive term that's more acceptable?--Anchoress 04:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chicano isn't inherently a pejorative, but some people might be offended by it. It refers specifically to Mexican-Americans. --π! 05:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Chicano" is rarely used these days. "Hispanic" is still used, but I think "Latino" (for the group, or a specific male) and "Latina" (for a specific female) are becoming the most popular terms in the US. StuRat 07:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Which makes more sense than 'Hispanic' because that refers to Spain and Brazil has a Portuguese colonial history. Then again, what about the Indians (or what should I call them), blacks and the various ethnic mixes from central and south America. Are they 'Central Americans' and 'South Americans' and does this mean you first have to ask which (sub)continent they're from? And what about people from French Guyana? French is a Latin language. And are Belizians excluded because English isn't? What exactly is meant by the term 'Latino'? I don't mean the official definition, but what people really mean by it.

Of course we could just call them 'people', but that would be too easy. :) It does, however, raise a question. What do we need a word for these people for? You need a word for something when it is clearly different from other things. When you're an Eskimo you need different words for different kinds of snow. When you're not you don't. So what do you need the distinction for? This reminds me of the Dutch word Allochtoon, literally meaning something like 'from a different culture', but defined as having at least one parent born outside the Netherlands. But that's not what people really mean by it. So a new word was introduced, 'non-western allochtone', meaning allochtones from outside Europe and North America (although the official definition is much more complicated). But what people 'in the street' really mean when they say allochtone is 'those darkies'. Does a similar problem play here? DirkvdM 08:04, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you're asking, but to clarify, I'm not trying to come up with a word for 'these people', and I'm not asking about one general word for people south of the 30th parallel. But the fact remains that there is a large population of people in America, mostly but not all Mexican, and they are often referred to by the three words I mentioned above. These folks probably have words they use to refer to their own cultural groups. I'd like to know what they are. I'm not trying to make an 'us vs them' distinction, but it's a foregone conclusion that cultural groups all over the world have words to describe them, some acceptable, some not. I'm trying to learn, so I can be respectful, and so I can get to know a bit more about cultures I haven't had much exposure to.--Anchoress 10:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I just meant to say that if you want to name a group you first have to define them and if that definition proves difficult then maybe there shouldn't be such a name. DirkvdM 18:05, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But providing a label for any group is going to be inexact. For example, if a health agency said "to slow the spread of AIDS we plan a major condom distribution campaign in the homosexual community", this would be a reasonably clear statement, despite the fact that "homosexual", in this case, may or may not include lesbians, bisexuals, transsexuals, intersex individuals, transvestites, etc. While imprecise, the statement is still better than none at all. StuRat 06:04, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

True, but my 'allochtoon; example shows how dangerous this can be. If different people use different definitions of a word (which is more likely if it is difficult to define) then people who see the statistics may think that the Netherlands are being overrun by 'darkies' and muslims (and 'therefore' terrorists) and the like, when most of them area actually of German descent (like me, for example). DirkvdM 06:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know if I can find it again now (perhaps someone else knows), but somewhere on the net I saw a survey indicating what various ethnicities in the U.S. choose to call themselves. Interestingly, the "politically correct" terms were usually pretty unpopular: most blacks call themselves "black", not "African American", and most Indians call themselves "Indians", not "Native Americans". Unfortunately, I can't remember what the survey said about Mexican-Americans, but I suspect it wasn't "Hispanic". User:Angr 10:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, none of these are offensive terms ("wetback" would be an offensive term, implying they are illegal immigrants who just swam the Rio Grande). In fact, Latinos themselves probably use the word most often. There are Latino dating services, for example. StuRat 08:19, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, all three are technically inaccurate. Hispanic means "deriving from spain" but Brazilians speak Portugese (and technically this definition would include Filipinos - but people don't lump them together, unless they were mistakening one for the other). Chicano refers to Mexicans, which is where the pejorativeness comes from - if you called all Latinos Mexican they'd probably be offended as well, it would be the same as calling all East/Southeast Asians Chinese, all South Asians Indian, and all whites as American. Latino/a has romance language connotations even though French is not included. Latin@ (o/a) would probably be the best use in North America. --ColourBurst 08:51, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Despite our Spanish heritage, I strongly object to Filipinos being called Hispanic. The base of our cultures as well as our languages existed long before Magellan set foot in the archipelago. --Chris S. 21:43, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The usage varies by geographic region of the US and by register, but Latino and Hispanic are synonymous. Chicano refers to Mexican Americans, as pointed out above, most commonly but not exclusively in California. Latino is favored in academics, art, and politics (again not exclusively) as well as in the West in lower registers. Hispanic tends to be used more commonly in the East. Other terms used are Spanish, a low register term commonly used at least in NY and Latin, typically used to describe music. With all due respect, the arguments about whether Brazilians are excluded because Hispanic refers to Spain are really not definitive. People accept or don't the use of a term as a reference to themselves for complex reasons, etymology and other meanings a word or related word might have are just one factor. Certainly, at least some immigrants from Spain often do not refer to themselves as Hispanic, while in Spain itself a term emerging from Latin American immigrants is Hispano. Etymology is not destiny linguistically.

That said, I avoid Latina(s) to refer to female(s) because sex reference nouns have been disappearing from English, and it seems like a kind of useless importation of foreign morphology. Then again I'm not a big fan of Greek, Latin and Hebrew plurals in English either, but I recognize that the terms are used. mnewman

I dont know the answer to your question but there are nicknames in Spanish for the various nationalities. For example, Uruguayans are often referred to as "charrúas" by Spanish-speakers, deriving from the Indians who lived there before. Its not at all pejorative, more like "Kiwi" for New Zealander. On the other hand, there are pejorative words in Spain for South Americans such as "sudaca". Jameswilson 22:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Etymology of "nunchaku" (martial weapon)

Nunchaku fails to explain where the term nunchaku or nunchucks comes from. It also doesn't mention the Cantonese term and Jyutping for it.--Sonjaaa 04:56, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Using cojak.org, the Cantonese readings would be soeng1 zit3 gwan3 (雙節棍), loeng5 zit3 gwan3 (兩節棍), and ji6 zit3 gwan3 (二節棍). I don't know if this is Jyutping, though. However, I looked at the Japanese article where I saw 福建語で読んだ「n=ng-chiat-kun」 And apparently it's of Min Nan origin. Obtaining the dictionary definition from Google leads to an entry about the Taiwanese, which is a dialect of Min Nan, origin of nunchakus. I do remember the word nng becoming the word for "two" in Min Nan. --Chris S. 05:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. The kanji indicate "Hokkien language" which is a Min Nan variant. --ColourBurst 19:21, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A 'martial weapon'? Doesn't 'martial' refer to war and indirectly to fighting and isn't any weapon therefore martial? (not nitpicking this time, because this is the language ref desk :) )DirkvdM 06:51, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic vocabulary

I'm trying to find the Arabic equivalents for some basic military terminology. Does anyone know how modern standard would translate "platoon," "company," "battalion," "brigade," and "division"? Thanks.

--Wes

Those wee phrasebooks you get when you join the army are really useful - unfortunately I don't have an Arabic one... Surely the word would be in the language bar at the side of the article in question? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 08:54, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The standard words in MSA are:

platoon — فصيل or فصيلة — faṣīl or faṣīlä
company — شركة — širkä or šarikä (but I'm not sure if this is used for military companies)
battalion — فرقة — firqä (although this may mean 'division')
brigade — لواء — liwā’
division — تقسيم or قسم — taqsīm or qism (although this might be any kind of division)

I hope you can make sense of these. If you want to use them in a sentence, post your sentence and we shall try to translate it for you. — Gareth Hughes 10:13, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much; I'm good with the grammar, just needed the vocab. --Wes

Non-subject/ predicate languages

Are there languages that don't use the subject-predicate distinction ? I can see how one might use a single word to cover a subject/ predicate [noun/ verb] sentence; e.g. one could take the name 'Cicero' and invent 'Ciceron', meaning 'Cicero has been hit'. But are there actual languages like this ? I realise there are inflected languages such as Latin, Greek, Russian ... but they all retain separate subject-terms and predicate-terms. Put this point like this : Are there languages that use single words/ terms for the subject/ predicate combinations that we find in English, Latin, Greek, Russian sentences ?

Well, there are pro-drop languages like Latin, where the subject is integrated into the verb and needn't otherwise be explicitly stated: "amo" = "I love", "amas" = "you (sg.) love", "amamus" = "we love", etc. User:Angr 14:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure if this is what you're talking about (I'm no linguist) but in Biblical Hebrew, you can have words containing a noun and a verb - i guess this would be a one word subject/predicate sentence. An example would be from the Song of the Sea: "וַאֲרֹמְמֶנְהוּ" va'aromemenehu, which means "and I will exalt Him (God)". СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 16:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, it's an alright example, but i wouldn't say that Hebrew is a language with doesn't have subject-predicate distinction. It has the distinction - in poetic Hebrew, you can contract it so you have one word sentences, but it's not like that's a grammatical feature of the language. I think you'd be better off looking at native languages like Quechua or Ojibwe, which are agglutinative, and seem to have the feature you're looking for. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 16:39, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Especially polysynthetic languages and languages with incorporation. Too bad I never quite managed to understand this stuff... Maybe you will... :) --194.145.161.227 20:34, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget ergative-absolutive languages. mnewmanqc

Then there are the languages of Tlön, which damn near scrap the whole idea of subjects (well, nouns, anyway) entirely. E.g.: "The moon rose above the water" more or less equals "Upward behind the onstreaming it mooned." ;-) zafiroblue05 | Talk 04:33, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

latin inscription translation help

Found on an article talk page:

I translated "proconsul asiam provinciam op… divi augusti iterum syriam" myself, but I could use someone who is expert in reading inscriptions to check this out; inscription, with their missing letters and shorthand script at notoriously hard to read. Particularly, I wonder if my rendering of asiam as the adjective modifying syriam is a mistake, and if it should just be the noun, meaning Asia Minor; I think there is room for interpretation here but if so I could at least use a scholarly source for this. Lostcaesar 08:57, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Would you mind reply at Talk:The Census of Quirinius and the Gospels. Thanks for your help!--Andrew c 14:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC

Almost forgot, here is the current translation : "Proconsul again in the Asian province Syria, of the divine Augutus."--Andrew c 14:49, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mayan Word

What does the word Pixan mean?--64.52.43.98 15:30, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Mayan word pixan is best translated as "soul" or "spirit", apparently. There's my ancient Mayan word of the day... СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 16:42, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is or that is

Which is correct:

Some believe that Jason took the palace in Athens and that is where he fought and killed a man.

Some believe that Jason took the palace in Athens and this is where he fought and killed a man.

This gives the impression that you are in the palace, either figuratively or speaking from where the palace used to stand. That suggests distance and therefore is appropriate if you are not at the palace, either figuratively or physically. — Gareth Hughes 15:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is Emprie when used in this context always suppsoed to be capitalized.

Under the Fatimids, Egypt became the center of an empire that included at its peak North Africa.

Alexander's empire?

I wouldn't capitalise it in either of the examples. I would capitalise Empire when it stood as part of the name of an empire (e.g. Roman Empire) or when it stood alone as shorthand for such (e.g. The beginning of the Empire is properly dated to the accession of Augustus), but not when it simply refers to the idea of empire (e.g. It was through might that the Romans created an empire, Al Jazeera's media empire has established a global image the envy of many networks). — Gareth Hughes 16:08, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Book of Job

One section of the article "Book of Job" contained this :

"Please translate David Betesh 19:55, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

לדעת הרמב"ן ספר איוב מרמז לרעיון גלגול הנשמות שהוא הפיתרון האמיתי לבעיית השכר והעונש. אחרים הדגישו רמיזות לעולם הבא, אם כי הוא אינו מוזכר בשום מקום בספר בצורה מפורשת, ואיוב אף דוחה את הרעיון שיש תקווה לאדם לאחר מותו (בפרק יד, יא-יב למשל: "אָזְלוּ-מַיִם, מִנִּי-יָם; וְנָהָר, יֶחֱרַב וְיָבֵשׁ. וְאִישׁ שָׁכַב - וְלֹא-יָקוּם.")

I took the liberty to put it in commentaries and bring the text in the talk page. Few of us shall be able to read without translation ; but the request to translate must not appear on the article page. Thank you (2 June 2006 (UTC)) see also the talk page. --DLL 16:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a really rough and quick translation:

According to the opinion of the Rambam (Moses Maimonides), the Book of Job hints at the concept of transmigration of souls, which is the real solution to the problem of punishment and reward. Others emphasized hints to the World-to-Come (Messianic Era) even though it is not mentioned in any place in the book in an explicit fashion, and Job even rejects the idea that there is hope for someone after his death; in Chapter 14:11-12 he says "As the waters fail from the sea, and the river is drained dry; So man lieth down and riseth not; till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be roused out of their sleep."

That's the best i could do at the moment; should i leave it here or put it in the article/talk page? СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 13:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Commas

Does a comma come after later:

Later, as Heraclius approached the Parthia capital of Ctesiphon, the Parthia aristocracy deposed their leader.

Yes. Also, I think the adjective is Parthian, and I'd avoid using aristocracy (singular) with their (plural). Henry ^Flower 17:47, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on whether you're American or British for the second one, doesn't it? (There are of course no other varieties of English worth speaking of.) --Ptcamn 19:11, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it may do, but anything that will cause discomfort to some of your readers is best avoided. Henry ^Flower 21:59, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So you don't use 'aristocracy' at all? Because 'The aristocracy was...' would cause many readers as much pain as 'The aristocracy were...' causes you. To call the aristocracy 'it' as much as 'they'. Skittle 19:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sesquipedalian

6 sylobol word that starts with D

decentralization • decidability • dependability • desirability • deterioration • differentiation • directionality • disambiguation • discernibility • discontinuity • discriminatory • disinterestedness • disqualification • dissatisfactory • dissimilarity • distributivity • diversification • divisibility. --Lambiam ^Talk 18:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Deductibility... etc... 惑乱分からん 22:14, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Di-trisyllabical? :) digfarenough (talk) 23:20, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Discombobulated. Adam Bishop 06:17, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Diphenylalanine. —Blotwell 07:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

August 4

Although

Does a comma come after although.e.g.

Although, some have thought it was nine feet tall.

No, it doesn't. Note, however, that removing the comma makes this a sentence fragment, meaning something more has to be added to make it a sentence (e.g. "Although some have thought it was nine feet tall, modern scholarship has shown that..."). If you don't want to add any more detail, replace "Although" with "However" and keep the comma. Ziggurat 00:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Although it's nonstandard, "although" is sometimes used instead of "however" in conversational English:

"Although... some have thought it was nine feet tall. " --π! 00:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

True; from the content, I presumed you were asking about academic written English (i.e. fairly formal). Ziggurat 00:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, is Caeser, Augustus, or Emperor captiized when refering to a person, not in a name title.

Caesar and Augustus both have a good case for being proper names, which means you would capitalise them. Emperor, no, because it's a description (i.e. "the emperor" not "the Emperor"). Ziggurat 00:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about here?

He is later considered to be the first Roman Emperor.

In 37 Caligula (37-41) succeeded Tiberius as Emperor.

Also, is this the correct way of using the semicolon, colon, and the word although:

He recalled Demetrius from Greece; although, he was winning success after success there, and moved against Lysimachus.

Nope. A quick punctuation switcheroo will make this correct: "He recalled Demetrius from Greece, although he was winning success after success there, and moved against Lysimachus." The middle clause is a parenthetical statement, so it should either go between commas, between brackets, or between dashes. Ziggurat 00:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Book Review

Hello, I have an assignment from school to write the book review on novella "the ballad of sad cafe". Could you please assist me in it as i have no idea in writing the book review. Please help me

You’ve got the title, that’s an excellent first step. Next I recommend finding out who the author is. Once you’ve done that, obtaining a copy of the book is in order, which can be done by taking the author’s name and the book’s title to your local library and asking for a copy. After getting the book, it’s usually best to read it. After having read it, write something about it that sums up what the book was about and then says what you liked or didn’t like about it. Then edit what you’ve written for good copy, and then print it out and turn it in with your name on it. That’s what I’d do, anyway. — Jéioosh 03:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Aaaahh, the undefeated style of communication through sarcasm and irony... As is stated on top of page:

Do your own homework. If you need help with a specific part or concept of your homework,
feel free to ask, but please do not post entire homework questions and expect us to give you 
the answers.

惑乱分からん 07:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you haven't even got the title. It's "The Ballad of the Sad Cafe". Writing it correctly will help you get more hits, and more marks. If you want to know what a book review looks like, look on a bookselling website like Amazon or, better still, in the review section of a good newspaper.--Shantavira 07:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Being a person who enjoys writing but hates reading sloppily-written, old books given out by teachers who are nostalgicly stuck in the past...I suggest Sparknotes, or you could be really lazy and just rent the DVD from Hollywood Video.

A good book review should contain an articulate, brief but complete synopsis of the story, and some supported (by the text) comments, criticisms, and possibly compliments about the piece. A great book review will also contain some information about the author, some analysis of the text, possibly a comparison/contrast to similar or contemporary works or authors, and scintillating prose. Try checking out book reviews at salon.com or the NY Times to read some excellent book reviews. You can't go wrong by starting out with 'The Ballad of Sad Cafe is a novella written by X and published in Y. It is the story of ___. Its protagonist, ___, is reminiscent of Z's ____, which is unsurprising since X was a protegee of Zs when s/he studied under her/him at ___. TBoSC was X's # published work and showed her/his (immaturity/maturity) as a writer.' BTW I made all that stuff up so don't bother searching for her/his mentor or what university s/he went to, it's just a suggestion. :-)--Anchoress 02:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Initial Stress in Czech and Hungarian

Czech and Hungarian are unrelated but have the common feature that every word (or nearly every word) is stressed on the first syllable. Do any other languages with significant numbers of speakers have this feature? JackofOz 03:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Finnish, and I think Latvian. What I notice is that these four languages vowel length is phonemic. --Chris S. 03:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Goidelic languages (except Munster Irish) and the Sorbian languages too, although they don't meet the criterion of having significant numbers of speakers. Latin has evidence of having had word-initial stress in its prehistory, although by the classical period that Latin stress rule had shifted stress rightward. User:Angr 07:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Estonian (a neighbour of Latvian and a relative of Finnish and Hungarian). Slovak is like Czech, too. Can't think of any more. --194.145.161.227 14:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Icelandic Stefán Ingi 14:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's not only in European languages, either: initial stress is found in many Australian languages, like Pintupi, Badimaya, Diyari, Pitta-Pitta, Wangkumara, as well as New Guinean languages like Ono and Selepet, the Austronesian language Dehu, and Native American languages like Cahuilla and Auca, though these probably don't significant numbers of speakers. User:Angr 19:38, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English tends to shift leftward too. Remember that many one-syllable English words started off as having two syllables, the second one gradually having been lost because all the stress was on the first. Jameswilson 23:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would understand from Lee Hollander's Poetic Edda (an English translation of a collection of Old Norse texts), page 324, that Old Norse worked this way, and I studied Old English with the assumption that it was that way, although I can't substantiate it.

Thanks folks. There's no mention of this in the Icelandic article, so maybe someone who knows what they're talking about should do so. JackofOz 01:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the pronunciation of a specific word in Mandarin Chinese

Hello, I've done searches to find the answer to this question, but it seems to be too specific:

Mandarin Chinese has a character “这”（zhe4). The meaning of this word is like the English "this". Native Chinese speakers pronounce this word in one of two ways, either like the English word "jay" or like the first sound in the English word "judge". Today, Chinese young people simply choose one of the two pronounciations and stick with it, or use them interchangeably. However, my Chinese teacher in America said that there are, or used to be, rules for when you use the first pronunciation, and when you use the second. He is an older gentleman, so he still follows these rules himself. However, I can't remember what he said these rules are.

So, with that background out of the way, my question: What are the rules for the pronunciation of this word? Do they still exist today?

I know that this question is random and specific, but any help you can give me would be appreciated. Even my young Chinese teachers in China didn't know that these rules exist, so I don't really know where else to go.

Thank you in advance.--Danaman5 07:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think there are a few characters that has (or used to have) different readings depending on context, but that it is/was very rare in modern Mandarin Chinese. 惑乱分からん 07:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In this dicussion there was some suggestion that zhai is a contraction of zhe yi, and so is used before measure words. But universal agreement was not reached. ;) Henry ^Flower 08:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Henry is right. "zhei" (in pinyin) is the contraction of "zhe yi" (這一 "this one").--K.C. Tang 08:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My experience is that people who use the "zhei" pronunciation do so almost always before a measure word, but not everyone uses it. "zhe ben shu" seems just as correct to me as "zhei ben shu", but "zhe shi yi ben shu" sounds right to me while *"zhei shi yi ben shu" definitely sounds wrong. But I don't speak Chinese very well, so my judgments are suspect. --Diderot 09:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"zhei shi yi ben shu" would mean "this one is a book"... even someone who doesn't speak Chinese would guess that it's wrong...--K.C. Tang 01:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Punctuation

"There is no official language in Eritrea, rather it has three working languages, Tigrinya, Arabic, and English, and Italian is still sometimes spoken as a commercial language."

What is precisely wrong with this sentence and what would be the best way to fix it? --Merhawie 16:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is nothing wrong with it. I personally don't like "rather" in that context, and the parenthetical clause might be clarified by rendering it: "There is no official language in Eritrea, which has three working languages – Tigrinya, Arabic, and English – and Italian is still sometimes spoken as a commercial language."--Shantavira 17:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For my part, I would greatly prefer a semicolon after "Eritrea" and a comma after "rather." But maybe that's just me. :-) --Tkynerd 18:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)

If the word "rather" is retained, then the first comma should become a semicolon. I would recast the sentence into two as follows: "Eritrea has no official language, but it has three working languages: Tigrinya, Arabic, and English. A fourth language, Italian, is sometimes used commercially." --Mathew5000 18:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's wrong. 'Rather' is not a coordinating conjunction, so as mentioned it would need a semicolon (or maybe a colon?) before it. Henry ^Flower 18:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's also a run-on sentence. Put a period after "Eritrea," and change "rather" to "Instead."--Teutoberg 20:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Not quite. A run-on sentence doesn't have any punctuation; rather, this is a comma splice. Henry ^Flower 20:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much everyone for your input! This was a tremendous help! --Merhawie 20:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Petrarch's De viris illustribus

How can I get an English version of this or get it translated from Latin to English? Is there a software program that would automatically translate this from Latin to English? In lieu of that, how could I get a list of at least the names of each on this Petrarch list? Is there common names on his list of names as Jerome, Boccacio, or Suetonius whom have same? Is there a web site of an English version of Petrarch's? Or a list of scholars that might have it in English? Whom are key scholars knowledgable about Petrarch? --Doug Coldwell 19:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think there is an English translation out there, either ebook or treebook and a machine translation would be probably unreadable. Although influential each life is just a short rehash of history available elsewhere: mainly from Livy. Dunno about names in common with Boccacio but it has none in common with Suetonius as he wrote of the Roman Emperors while most of Petrarch deals with the Roman Republic or before and Jerome wrote of Christian writers. Here is a list of lives: Romulus, Numa Pompilius, Tullus Hostilius, Ancus Marcius, Lucius Junius Brutus, Horatius Cocles, Cincinnatus, Marcus Furius Camillus, Titus Manlius Torquatus (347 BC), Marcus Valerius Corvus, Publius Decius Mus (312 BC), Lucius Papirius Cursor, Curius Dentatus, Gaius Fabricius Luscinus, Alexander III of Macedon, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Hannibal of Carthage, Fabius Maximus, Marcus Claudius Marcellus, Gaius Claudius Nero, Marcus Livius Salinator, Scipio Africanus, Cato the Elder, Scipio Aemilianus Africanus. MeltBanana 22:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is very helpful. Then I understand this is the complete list of names on Petrarch's De Viris Illustribus!? So my understanding is that then he just describes these individuals with a brief description or history of each!? Are you a scholar quite familiar with Petrarch? Do you know of others very familiar with Petrarch? Have you ever come across where Petrarch wrote in a "pen name" or wrote in any type of a "code"? Are you at all familar with Jerome's list of "Christian writers" or know who is familiar with these? You have been very helpful and it helps me a lot in my research I am doing on Petrarch. --Doug Coldwell 23:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

periodical definition

I would like to know if there is a term for a publication that is released 3 times a year. I'm familiar with, weekly, monthly, quarterly, etc.

There is no common term. The best option seems to be "quadrimonthly". [2] [3] --Mathew5000 22:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Triannual' is less ugly. Henry ^Flower 23:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Quamestrial'? (warning: I made that up :) ) DirkvdM 06:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

'Triannual' is correct. Its counterpart is 'triennial' = "once every three years". This corresponds to 'biannual' and 'biennial', which are in any standard dictionary. Charvex 06:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Editing Questions

Should Emperor be capatalized.

He is later considered to be the first Roman Emperor.

In 37 Caligula (37-41) succeeded Tiberius as Emperor.

What about kingdom.

The gold of Babylon represents that the great Kingdom did not need much.

The Crusaders exiled the Greek Orthodox Patriarch from the city, and a Latin hierarchy was established in the Kingdom under a Latin Patriarch.

Also, does 1960's have an apostophe.

No, no, and no. Neither emperor or kingdom are capitalized and 1960s does not have an apostrophe. --Yarnalgo 22:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That would be "Neither emperor nor kingdom is capitalized". :--) JackofOz 13:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

August 5

Think you know the English language? (British and American) Take the RETF challenge

RegExTypoFix (Regular Expression Typographical error Fixer, or RETF) is a set of over 1600 regular expressions used to automatically fix common typos and misspellings. The only need for a human is to verify that the replacements are correct and hit Save.

However, when I started I used a list of misspellings that were utter crap. They included many "misspellings" that were actually words. Now I know better and check multiple sources for every word I add.

That's where you come in. There are 1600 lines of words. All need to be checked.

Find one line that has a problem and you get a mention in my weekly newsletter
Find two or more and you get the original Wikipedia barnstar

I know they're kind of lame prizes, but I wanted to give something to anyone who could help me out. I have a deep passion for RETF and have made over 18,000 typo fixing edits with its assistance. I have 733 articles to fix right now.

Help Wikipedia out and start checking
Thank you!!! --mboverload @ 00:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Appart from the many rare and indangered variant forms you are trying to cull, there is:

tenacle - a holder, forceps, a thing you carry a flag in.

persue - the trail of blood left by prey

and where would the world be witout humerous - "that hath great shoulders". MeltBanana 01:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I went through a bunch. Check your talk page. --ColourBurst 01:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

OK I admit it I am just trying to make life difficult for you:

dispair - un-pair

discribe - un-write

belive - quickly, lively

curch - hanky hat MeltBanana 02:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, thanks! I guess estimating that you would only be able to find one error was quite a misjudgement on my part! --mboverload @ 04:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone has any more that would be awesome =D --mboverload @ 06:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You mean to say you assumed you'd never have to hand out the barnstar? You deceiving rascal you! DirkvdM 07:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

<Typo find="\b(C|c)onneticut\b" replace="$1onnecticut" />: it's always capitalized. What you want is: <Typo find="\b(C|c)onneticut\b" replace="Connecticut" /> - Nunh-huh 07:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Completely automatic"? Wouldn't that require a rather advanced grammatical AI? 惑乱分からん 12:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It replaces the words automatically, but a human has to verify the replacements are correct before hitting save. Sorry, should have made that clear. --mboverload @ 12:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't this produce "vetween"? Perhaps it should be between? Road Wizard 12:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possible variants dyeing and dying. Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possible variants coveted and converted. Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For option 1, wouldn't this produce "copyrighte"? Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Possible variants copywriter and copyright. Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't this a double post of the same spell check? Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A triple post? Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't 'decypher' an acceptable variant (as in cypher)? Skittle 19:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

And is 'Drumless' a word, however you spell it? I can't find it in a dictionary or the web, except as a sort of made-up thing. Does that count? If so, can it have a set spelling? Or have I missed a usage? Skittle 19:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Have I misunderstood, or would this return 'eeconomist'? And people might mean 'economics'. Skittle 19:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Irregular Plurals

I read that there are only 13 irregular plurals in English. Is this true? I found

foot/feet
goose/geese
louse/lice
man/men
mouse/mice
tooth/teeth
woman/women
die/dice

what are some more? Reywas92 00:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's a lot more than 13. Especially those words of Latin origin whose endings turn from -us into -i into the plural. Also there are words like hypothesis and axis whose plural forms are respectively hypotheses and axes. --Chris S. 01:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Moose/moose, deer/deer, child/children... zafiroblue05 | Talk 01:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Any loanword from Japanese is most likely irregular; sushi/sushi, nunchaku/nunchaku, etc. --ColourBurst 01:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Forms such as cactuses, instead of the more proper cacti, are becoming accepted. After all, who uses hippopotami these days? I call them hippos. People have starting using plurals like criteria as a single form, in place of criterion.

There are those odd words whose plurals don't mean quite what non-native speakers sometimes assume - if the plural of noodle is noodles, then what is a spaghetti, and what happens if you have more than one? Perhaps with breads, cheeses and wines.... and maybe even sheeps.... --TheMadBaron 03:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since spaghetti is from Italian, isn't the singular form spaghetto? —Bkell (talk) 04:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Let's be a little more careful. Spaghetti, bread, cheese, wine (and, I'm almost certain, sushi) are uncountable nouns in English; sheep and nunchaku are countable nouns which have identical singular and plural forms. Henry ^Flower 09:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

But those are words from other languages. We have our own native irregular plurals. See English plural and ablaut. Adam Bishop 05:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even sticking just to words of Germanic origin, the above list omits child/children, man/men, ox/oxen. User:Angr 06:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If we take into account all words that have migrated into English,there are many variations such as gateau/x, kibbutz/im, radius/radii. Then there are the remnants of ye olde English- brother/brethren and some archaic terms such as cow/kine. Perhaps it might be a useful addition to the plural article to have a list of plural endings.Lemon martini 14:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So to sum up, there's well over thirteen. I'm thinking there's about a hundred of 'em. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

By irregular, I ment as in with a vowel change in the root of the word, as in my examples. Reywas92 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning and Origin of the expression"dum de dum."

I am interested in finding out the origin, meaning, and correct spelling of the expression "dum de dum". To me, it means a repetitive drum beat or sound, and, more generally, an expression used to denote boredom, perhaps because something is repetitive. Am I close? Thanks for any help you can give. --24.8.231.168 02:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It comes from the Bible. It's what Jesus said to himself before beginning the Sermon on the Mount.--Teutoberg 03:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Jesus was simply quoting Genesis 2:2: "And on the seventh day God said 'dum de dum, tum te tum,' and he rested from all the work that he had done." Ashibaka tock 06:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How do you spell that in Hebrew and Greek? —Keenan Pepper 06:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hebrew: דם די דם, טם טי טם and Greek: δυμ δι δυμ, τυμ τι τυμ. —D a niel (‽) 09:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, cool. δαμ δι δαμ is closer to the English pronunciation, but δυμ δι δυμ sounds much funnier, especially when I imaging God saying it. —Keenan Pepper 09:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, δαμ δι δαμ is closer to the American pronunciation. I don't think the Southern English pronunciation can be represented in Greek, but δυμ δι δυμ is exactly right for Northern dialects of English. — Haeleth Talk 17:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In all seriousness, I always associated it with quietly singing a song to yourself to pass the time. Sort of in the way young children do; just kind of making up a tune. I've heard it used to denote boredom ("Well, next bus is in an hour... dum de dum..."), along with a certain sort of naive stupidity in the manner of Forrest Gump. ("So he just crosses the street without looking - dum de dum de dum - and gets hit by a bus.") I've also heard it in a "do de do" type form, particularly for the latter, that's probably the same thing. --ByeByeBaby 06:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's from Genesis 5:2 (5th album "Selling England by the Pound", 2nd song "I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)"), which starts with "Its one o'clock and time for lunch, (dum de dum de dum)". The gardener takes a break and starts humming. So it's a sound of being content. DirkvdM 07:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Huh. I always figured it was just the theme from Jaws, you know, the music that plays right before the shark is about to chew someone up. I've heard it used in terms of boredom before, but where I am from we usually just hum the Jeopardy music that they play during the final question: "Dooh, do, dooh, do, dooh, do, dooh, DOOH! Dah-do-do-do, dooh...dooh...dooh". In terms of slowness/stupidity, people are starting to say "dee dee dee" alot nowadays because of a comedian they have on television now, Carlos Mencia, I think is his name. Never really liked his acts much though. --69.138.61.168 08:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

English names ending in "ett"

What if any is the common origin of English names ending in "ett", like Barnett, Bennett, Burnett, Crockett and Hewlett? Thank you. (August 5 2006, 08:10 UTC)

I believe this was asked before and I believe the answer was that the suffix has a French origin, the French 'ette' being a French diminuitive (or female, as in 'Jeanette'). DirkvdM 10:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Seemingly, but apparently not for all surnames. 惑乱分からん 12:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What about "ott" as in Abbott, Arnott, Harnott & Arrott jonocorry 04:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Naughties

If the last decade was the nineties, then what is this decade called? I just read the term 'naughties', which I found amusing enough to start using it myself. But I doubt that's the official term. DirkvdM 10:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it simply "the 2000s"?

There is no official term. Unlike some other languages, English does not have a language academy. --Ptcamn 11:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The naughties/noughties sounds nice enough... ;) 惑乱分からん 12:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does not knowing that any language was regulated make me a moron? --mboverload @ 12:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, but don't worry, I'm sure there are loads of other thngs that do. :) DirkvdM 17:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

lol, that was cold =D --mboverload @ 05:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Back in the 1990's, there was a lot of speculation on alt.usage.english and other forums as to what the decade would be called, and now we're halfway through it, and we still don't know. "The 2000's" will be ambiguous as soon as the 2010s become relevant... AnonMoos 15:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, the preferred spelling seems to be "Noughties" -- see 2000s#Names of the decade AnonMoos 15:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

come on dirkvdm with all your free-society rhetoric, I know you know the nuances of the definitive/prescriptive language debate.

Are you talking to this DirkvdM? Am I guilty of 'free-society rhetoric'? What does it mean anyway? Or 'the definitive/prescriptive language debate' for that matter? DirkvdM 17:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you're anti-xenophobic, you're into open source, dollar voting, democracy, things like that. I would call that "free society rhetoric"..nothing wrong with it....that's just the perception I get of you. If you're American and I had to wager, I'd bet you've voted at least once for a libertarian.

In any case, I was also betting that you would be very much so on the side of definitive linguistics wherein a language is defined as how it's used in reality, as opposed to prescriptive linguistics where a language is defined by an institution (dictionary publisher or government academy).

Have you been keeping an eye on me? That first sentence is quite right. However, I'm very Dutch. I suppose you mean by 'libertarian' what I call 'liberal' (in both the social and the economic sense - I have voted VVD and D66, but I now vote GroenLinks for the sake of the climate).

But I'm also very much into standardisation and logic. In technology (and clothing and whatever), but also in language. So I suppose I'm on the prescriptive side. Who should prescribe those rules is a different matter. For example, I try to stick to English English because that's closest to me. So circumstances picked the standard for me. The main thing is to be consistent. Ultimately, everyone should preferably use the same words for the same things. Whatever that is, but also preferably in a logical context. So if previous decades were called the eighties and nineties and such, then this decade should be called the 'zeroties', but since that sounds awful 'noughties' will do quite well. Although 'naughties' sounds a bit tempting. :)

You edited here as 74.227.197.63, but that ip address hasn't done many edits, so did you forget to sign in or do you have a rotating ip address? Who goes there? DirkvdM 07:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I propose we cease referring to any decade as "the ____ies" in order to solve this problem. We can simply buy records called "Best of the Period Between 1960 and 1969". Therefore we call this "the period between 2000 and 2009". Taiq 13:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There is no problem when you can't define a very young person by the number of his/her decades. A man in his forties, yes ; a teenager ... exists also : why no teenies for the next 10 years ? For the moment being, some Bush era, google era or anything else [era] shall prevail one day, like les années folles in the 1910's in France. --DLL 18:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In Dutch we do have words for people at other 'age-decades' - after 'tiener' we've got 'twintiger', 'dertiger', etc. In English that would sound a bit strange - twentager, thirtager. They are almost the same as the Dutch words, but somehow the don't 'work' in English. Btw, funny, my spellchecker recognises 'twintiger' as an English word, and so it is. :) DirkvdM 06:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

How about using scientific notation, so that we have "the 2.00 × 10³s" for the years 2000 to 2009, "the 2.0 × 10³s" for the years 2000 to 2099, and "the 2 × 10³s" for the years 2000 to 2999? ;-) —Bkell (talk) 05:48, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No matter what you decide, you're just gonna have to argue about it again when we get to the tens. freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ 17:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Limits of Historical Linguistics

Hi. I have a somewhat technical question. There seems to be an assumption (I have read it in several places, including on Wikipedia I think) that one can't work out what languages sounded like more than 10,000 years ago. However, surely the only justification for this belief is glottochronology, which seems to be discredited, as otherwise one could just go through more sound changes (obviously they would be harder to be certain of, but still...) In fact, one of the things that strikes me about some core vocab is how stable it is. To use a particularly stable example, the PIE word for name has an n and an m and keeps the in the same order in nearly every daughter language List_of_common_Indo-European_roots#h.E2.82.81.2C_e.2Fo. So why do some people think that all languages started out as one, but it is impossible to reconstruct it?--Estrellador* 18:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, what's discredited about glottochronology is that it can be used to reliably indicate how long ago two related languages parted ways. The idea that historical reconstruction can only take us so far and no further is not discredited, although I suspect most historical linguists would be reluctant to put a specific figure on the number of years it can take us. The reason most say it's impossible to reconstruct "Proto-World" is simply that our knowledge of "existing" (if you will) proto-languages is already spotty enough. We have a fairly good idea of what Proto-Indo-European was like, but there are still gaps. We also have a fairly good idea of what Proto-Semitic was like, but although we know it has to have descended from Proto-Afro-Asiatic, our knowledge of that is even spottier. But what we do know about PIE and PAA is enough to show us that we can't reconcile the two and reconstruct a proto-proto-language to be the parent of both of them. In other cases, it's not so clear; there's still a debate as to whether Proto-Turkic and Proto-Mongolic can be reconciled and derived from a Proto-Altaic or not, and so there is correspondingly little information about what Proto-Altaic may have looked like if it did exist. Trying to reconcile Proto-Altaic with PIE or PAA is even more hopeless. And so on. That answers the second part of your final question. The answer to the first part of the question, "why do some people think that all languages started out as one" is that if they didn't, then that means language arose independently in different populations of early humans at different times, but yet managed to reach every single human society, which is just too unlikely to be believed. All human societies have grammatically complex languages that follow certain linguistic universals; the most parsimonious and plausible assumption is that this facility arose only once during the evolution of human beings. It would just be too weird if it arose multiple times in multiple locations around the world, and yet still had as much in common as human languages do. User:Angr 18:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It's very unlikely that an IE language has many common roots with other families, and if such roots were found in other families, it would be something very vague, like one vowel or something. There's just far too much variation in languages. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the extremely prompt answers. However, I am not quite sure I understand how the argument works. Surely either all languages began as one, in which case we would be able to see some similarity, such as shared vocabulary, or they didn't, in which case we wouldn't. Maybe the shared features (which are fundamental, true - all langs, or so I have read, have pronouns, nouns and verbs, and I have read about certain IFTHEN features) are really a system of categorisation, else why would there be so little similarity in anything except grammar - which appears to be heavily dependent on a few set assumptions like S, O and V order for all its smaller quirks? Really, IMHO, spontaneous generation in one place seems equally as likely as that in multiple places, as once is odd enough that several times makes no difference, particularly as the langs don't seem to share vocab, which is what has been used to reconstruct all the proto-languages so far. Surely if one person is necessary to generate the language, the others all have to have the capacity to absorb it, and, are thus just as capable of spontaneous generation, given enough time? Maybe I don't understand linguistic universals well enough, in which case I would be happy to be referred to some good sources. It just seems, as I say, odd that languages are all postulated to come from one common ancestor when no vocabulary, which as I say seems moderately stable, survives. --Estrellador* 20:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at the extensive article at Zompist, which explains very well the problems in finding linguist roots... basically, because of the changes that languages have suffered in the past few thousand years or even less, words with a common ancestor can be as distinct as (Hindi)"chah" and (English) "six", whereas words without a common ancestor can be as similar as (Japanese) "so" and (German) "so". Junesun 21:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Or possibly Japanese miru and Spanish mirar...although I think that is just a coincidence... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all the responses. They have been helpful. --Estrellador* 16:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I recall something about the similarity of the word for "water" in many languages. Someone told me that there are only six words reconstructed for proto-world. One of them is finger: *tik AEuSoes1 21:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is Emperor capitalized?

It was built by the German emperor Geiliom II who visited the city in 1898.

This question looks familiar - I'm experiencing déjà lu... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 19:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There seem to be different conventions on this. I capitalize titles when referring to a specific person but not when referring to the position in general: "Of the many Germans emperors, Emperor Gailiom was the only one who visited the city in 1898." StuRat 22:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There was no German Emperor Geiliom II or Gailiom. There was, however, a Wilhelm II. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Geiliom looks like somebody's unusual idea of how to spell the French equivalent Guillaume. JackofOz 01:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

August 6

Pronunciation of Łódź?

A quick request of help for any experts of the Polish language.

Anyone know how to pronounce Łódź? I don't entirely understand the way the Polish language's grammar operates, and the IPA phonetic pronunciation is no help either.

Thanks for any help I receive, and make the answer spelled out simple phonetic style, like "America" would be spelled "um-ER-ickk-uh". Use capitalized letters for stressed parts. Again, thanks!-Andr e wi a 00:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

you don't need to understand the grammar if what you want is only to know how to pronoune that word... according to our article, it is pronounced as [wutɕ], so it's something like "wOOtsh", though the sound represented by "ź" doesn't exist in English anyway.--K.C. Tang 00:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think Polish voiced consonants become unvoiced at the end of the word. If that's the case, then it would be, in the "simple phonetic style," wootch. If not then something like woodge. Closest thing in English, though, but not exactly accurate. --Chris S. 07:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand the very brief glace I looked at Polish phonology, it seems like it would be pronounced roughly "WOOJ", or /wuʥ/. However, don't quote me on it because I know nothing of Polish.--Andrew c 00:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

the eng Łódź article gives [wutɕ], the french one gives [wudʑ], which one is right?--K.C. Tang 00:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My textbook says that final consonants 'often' become unvoiced, so I think there's some room for regional or personal variety. FWIW, my book also indicates that Łódź is one of the words where the consonant becomes unvoiced. Henry ^Flower 08:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what your textbook means by "often", unless they're thinking of the fact that final devoicing can be overridden by voicing assimilation from the following word. Pronounced in isolation, final devoicing is exceptionless. The word is [wutɕ], roughly "wootch". User:Angr 09:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to hijack this question but it is sorta related: how do you pronounce the Polish name Zbigniew? MeltBanana 01:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

zbeeg-NEE-ev? No? That's my guess. Or maybe ZBEEG-nyev.- THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ZBEEG-nyef: two syllables, stress on the first, and the second 'i' indicates palatisation rather than a separate syllable. Henry ^Flower 08:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you everyone, and I'm glad to know that I was sort of right. I thought it was "wudge".-Andr e wi a 13:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Teaching pronunciation

Hello, Wikipedians. I've been working with a couple of students with English as a second language. While areas like grammar and vocabulary haven't been too difficult for us, we have had problems with the articulation of certain English phonemes. Can anyone offer me some tips about teaching pronunciation? I've tried a scientific approach, showing where and how the phonemes are made by using a diagram of the mouth and throat, but this method has produced poor results. I'm not sure what else to try; after repeating the phonemes over and over, trying to get my students to imitate them, I find myself putting aside the problems for later. My students' L1 is Latin American Spanish, so my saying zeta ~~castilla~~ castillana for /θ/ doesn't help too much. :) Anyway, in addition, the students have many other difficulties mainly because of Spanish's word and syllable structure. Thanks for any advice you can offer.--El aprendelenguas 01:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC) [reply]

Maybe...expressing English sounds to your students as Spanish sounds, like "dch" or "di" for "j", eg. "diuc (dchuc) box", etc. Surely it's possible to get away with "f" for /θ/ though? I'm really not sure. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The proportion of foreign language learners who attain a native-like accent is so small as to be practically zero, so you're fighting a losing battle. :) Realistically, all you can do is to concentrate on the kind of pronunciation errors which impede understanding. First make sure that they can hear the difference between sounds: minimal pairs and 19th-century style dictation are good for that. The 'scientific approach' can help if you start from a similar sound in their native language, and then tell them what direction to go (more forward, lips more rounded, etc). It should then be possible to get them to produce the phoneme in isolation. Getting them to produce in in words in connected speech is then a matter of lots and lots of repetition. Henry ^Flower 09:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've had success getting students to exaggerate physically - for /θ/, for example, get them to stick their tongues out and bite, really over-the-top like. You could also try tongue twisters. If you haven't looked already, Dave's ESL Cafe has an idea cookbook full of good practises. Ziggurat 09:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Esperanto: Use of the "Ulo" suffix.~~
When is it appropriate to use -ulo-? For example, trista (dreary) can be made to tristulo (unhappy person). Can I make fisxo (fish) into fisxulo (fish-man)? Also, is the term tristulo gender-neutral, or male, as other words (doktoro, for example) are? Do I need to say Sxi estas tristinulo for "She is an unhappy person"?
This should be simple. "-ulo = a person characterized by the root". Also, -ino = female. Tristinulo should do for a female (or tristulino ?] Beware that word formation leaves you with the risk of being misunderstood : any periphrasis could be enough. --DLL 17:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tristulo ought to be gender-neutral, and that's what I'd use. If you want to be extra specific, use tristulino, not tristinulo. It's best to put the affixes such that each modifies the one on its left. "Female" (-in-) is a property of "person" (-ul-) and not "dreary" (trist-). --π! 00:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, about "fiŝulo", you can generally only use "-ulo" with roots that default as adjectives. As such, fiŝulo (if it was a word) would refer to a "fishy person". If you want to refer to a fisherman, the proper term is fiŝkaptisto. A "fish-person" monster might be a fiŝviro. --π! 08:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~translating a sentence into Spanish~~
Hello There, I work in the stores as a sales rep. I don't speak Spanish and really need to know how to say the following correctly in Spanish so I can make a nice sign. Thank You very much! The sentence is," Please help us by putting CD's back in correct spot after looking at it. Thank you very Much" This is stupid, but I have tried everywhere to find out. Thank youy so much. Helen......
"Por favor, ayúdenos a poner los CDs en el lugar correcto después de mirarlos. Muchas gracias." --jh51681 19:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't that mean "Please help us to put the CD's in the correct place"? I'd expect something like "ayúdenos poniendo los CDs", or "ayúdenos y ponga los CDs". --Lambiam ^Talk 06:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The "emos" tense generally requires a transitive "estar" verb first. Danny Lilithborne 06:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~And be careful with the accents (although that probably shouldn't create much misunderstanding). 惑乱分からん 19:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~...unless it's in upper case, which writing on signs usually is. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
A consideration is also how a phrase sounds in another language or culture. I often recognise phrases in Dutch used by especially US companies as being a direct translation from English. I suspect the 'ayúdenos' might sound strange because it's a typical 'Americanism' (US-ism?). After all, you've already said 'Por favor' and 'Muchas gracias'. No need to overdo it. The 'a' after it also sounds wrong, but that was already pointed out. 'en el lugar correcto' may have to be 'en su lugar'. And I wonder if there is a word for 'put back'. My dictionary doesn't tell, it could be 'reponer', but I won't bet on that. Finally, the English sentence mixes up plural and singular. So, sticking to plural, my suggestion would be
"Por favor, ponen los CD's en su lugar después de mirarlos. Muchas gracias."

The last 'n' in 'ponen' could sound a bit too formal, so that could be made 'pone', depending on the kind of shop. Having said all that, my Spanish is a bit rusty. :) DirkvdM 06:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~According to http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD, Spanish doesn't seem to use any separating accents, thus "CDs". 惑乱分からん 10:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~Name of Swedish pronounciation symbol~~
I'm trying to figure out the name of the two dots over the 'o's and 'a's in the Swedish language. I'm not sure how else to descibe this symbol but it looks like a pair of eyes over the letter. What do you call this? Thank for your time 66.178.163.177 17:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC) Here is an example: ö Ä[reply]
I never can tell : diaeresis or umlaüt ? --DLL 17:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to the Ä and Ö, articles, for Swedish, seemingly neither. For German, where it often symbolizes a grammatical function, it's an umlaut, and for languages where it marks that the vowel should be pronounced separately, it's called diaeresis or trema. Since Ä and Ö are considered separate letters in Swedish and Finnish, and not variants of A and O, the dots don't have a name. I'm also confused. 惑乱分からん 17:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Either, or trema. See Umlaut (diacritic). · rodii · 17:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
Our Swedish alphabet article is quite insistent that it's not called anything. You might as well ask what the straight line on the left of an n is called. Henry ^Flower 18:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Correct. They are considered separate letters in Swedish, and are alphabetized at the end (...x,y,z,å,ä,ö). Swedes say the alphabet has 28 letters (because v and w are not really distinguished in Swedish). One can describe the appearance of the letter in English by saying something like "a with a diaresis" or "a with two dots over it"; IMO the term umlaut should not be used. (BTW, the Swedish word omljud refers to a phenomenon in Swedish similar to umlaut in German, whereby a Swedish noun's vowel changes when it is pluralized, or a verb's vowel changes between the present and the past tense; e.g., man --> män; bok --> böcker; ryker --> rök. But omljud refers strictly to the phenomenon, not to the letters involved.) --Tkynerd 14:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Note. In order to follow international standards and due to a few minimal pairs in Swedish, such as tvist (dispute, argument; quarrel) and twist (dance), Svenska Akademien decided to disunify the letters V and W this year, and currently the Swedish alphabet is generally considered to have 29 letters. 惑乱分からん 14:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oooh, interesting news (and if I were still living there, I'd gradually be less irritated by Swedes' inability/unwillingness to distinguish these letters in English)! :-) But are there any plans to distinguish the pronunciations (for words like tvist and twist)? --Tkynerd 20:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Swedish phonology lacks the w, and therefore Svenska akademien isn't in the position to force the sound upon people speaking Swedish. Just as with native English and other speakers, correct pronunciation of foreign words is a voluntary task for each individual. 惑乱分からん 22:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~identifying language of subtitle (and possibly translating) from clip on net~~
Hello,
I have a downloaded file (funnyownedcompilation5) which is a compilation of all sorts of freaky accidents with some music.
As he uses images from Eurosport, I think the creator is European.
There is a collapsing building in it, and the top of it crashes into a pole. There are subtitles saying
"Tio procent bor pa bondgardar en sillra/siffra/silfra son/som faller."
(The quality is rather poor so when I wasn't sure I used /) It is possible there should be some umlauts (¨) that I couldn't see because of the poor quality.
I know for sure it isn't English, German, Dutch or French.
Maybe Romanian? Or a Scandinavian language? I seem to recognize "falling" "chiffre=digit" en "ten percent" but for the rest...
Thanks! Evilbu 17:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's Swedish. "Tio procent bor på bondgårdar. En siffra som faller." Directly translated it means: "Ten percent are living on farms. A number that's decreasing." The joke is that "faller" could mean both "falls"(collapses) and "decreases". Just a very bad pun. 惑乱分からん 17:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, the video was of poor quality, and I thought if I missed a sign it was an umlaut, apparently it is a ° (does that have a name?). Thanks, it makes perfect sense now! Evilbu 19:03, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Apparently not, since Å is considered a separate letter, otherwise compare ring (diacritic) or kroužek. 惑乱分からん 19:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
Kroužek is the name of it in Czech, where it exists only with a ů. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 22:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~English to French slogan translation~~
Hi
I've got the slogan of a local flying school which I must translate into the French equivalent.
The slogan is 'The sky's not the limit'.
I can find the literal translation which is 'Le ciel n'est pas la limite!', although I very much doubt it is correct.
Is there such a saying in French? If there is please tell me how it is said.
Thanks 81.107.59.131 18:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I can't think of a cognate idiom. I would translate "the sky's the limit" as "tout est possible", but that doesn't afford any translation of "the sky's not the limit." No obvious French equivalent comes to mind, and I don't work at searching for one for free. Normally, a bilingual ad agency would do this kind of work. You could try the Montreal yellow pages. --Diderot 20:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
better check with the french language academy before you do anything rash.
L’Académie française is the limit, it seems. --Ptcamn 01:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Au-delà des cieux (beyond the skies) could do. Par-delà les nuages (over the clouds) is less precious. --DLL 19:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~How many languages are there in the world?~~
The number I hear most often is 6000 but I don't believe I've ever seen it sourced. It's obviously a round number and I realize that there's some difficulty in counting the languages of the world because of dialects, logistics, and other issues I haven't even thought of but some one must have sat down and come up with 6000. I'd be interested in finding out how that person(s) arrived at the number. - Pyro19 22:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The counter of languages most often cited is the Summer Institute of Linguistics' Ethnologue, but this is not without controversy (of course - mentioned in the article). They currently list 6,912 languages, and the count arises from the fact that they aim to list every documented language. Ziggurat 23:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Am I to assume they sort of scour literature to find mention of languages? Is there any estimate of how many languages there are out there that aren't documented? - Pyro19 23:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
They include some undocumented languages, actually. For example, Sentinelese has an entry in Ethnologue, even though nobody has managed to get close enough to study their language (they're hostile to outsiders). But presumably they speak something.

It's also worth noting that they seem to only include extinct languages if there is a bible translation for that language. --Ptcamn 23:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've heard some weird criteria, but this one takes the cake. :) DirkvdM 07:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
there's a reason for it, but! SIL International is listing languages so that they can translate the Bible into all of them. Kind of like how the best genealogical databases are compiled by Mormons with the aim of baptising the dead. Ziggurat 07:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Does the 6,912 figure include extinct languages? - Pyro19 23:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not intentionally, but the data Ethnologue is based on is sometimes dated, and so languages it lists as living are actually extinct. --Ptcamn 23:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This takes constructed languages into account then? 6,912 sounds about right though, when you take the number of language families and the usual number of languages contained within a family... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Programming languages (+ dialects)? Mathematics and Logic? Baby talk? Sign language? Animal languages? The sky is the limit. DirkvdM 07:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You may calculate anything with a good programming language, but you cannot express anything. Try the Bible! There is a true limit, related to distinct enough groups of human people. Remember also that UK English and other countries' Englishes do differ more and more.--DLL 19:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A computer is a logical machine. A programming language can therefore express anything that Logic can, which is everything (not entirely sure about that last bit). Anyway, the question was about languages, without further specifications. DirkvdM 06:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~August 7~~
~~Use of "data" in a sentence~~
~~I'm not sure how to respond here Thanks guys! --mboverload @ 01:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~Seems OK to me. · rodii · 02:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
Yes, data can be used as both plural and singular. Examples from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary: The data was/were collected by various researchers. Now the data is being transferred from magnetic tape to hard disk. [4]. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 02:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Thanks, I have just never heard it used as a plural, even though I know it can be. Just doesn't sound right to my ears. --mboverload @ 02:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
Nor mine. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is plural - the singular is "datum". However it is also a mass noun, and when used in that sense, only the singular form exists. JackofOz 07:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Right, it's the singular form that sounded wrong to me. Maybe the fact that I'm Dutch somehow worked to my advantage here, approaching English more from a logical perspective than based on experience. DirkvdM 07:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In compound nouns in Template:Lan, the first noun is normally in the singular form, even if the meaning is plural. Example: "pea soup". So in "data base" the word "data", originally plural, reveals its singular nature. One says: "The data is corrupted", and not: *"The data are corrupted". Maybe some people prefer the latter, but it is definitely no longer the more common way, and to many people it just sounds wrong. --Lambiam ^Talk 08:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose one must also say: "This people is tall", and not: *"These people are tall", because the Purple People Eater reveals "people" to be singular, right?
You could say, eg. "The Masai are a tall people", but "This people is tall" is very unidiomatic. "People", even when used as a mass noun, is usually taken to be plural, eg. "The Australian people are wonderful, excellent and marvellous". JackofOz 20:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The prescriptively correct form is "The data are corrupted". "The data is corrupted" is widely used in speech, and as a staunch anti-prescriptivist I'd say it was correct, but Wikipedia is meant to be written in a style "appropriate to an encylopedia", which I suppose includes self-prescriptivism (but I'll still object to articles actually promoting prescriptivism). --Ptcamn 11:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Just assume that the data is something feminine singular, and problem solved :) Adam Bishop 17:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
If the singular usage of data bothers you, then so should the singular usage of agenda (which is the plural form of agendum), and the word agendas must really drive you nuts. ;-) —Bkell (talk) 18:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~London Placename Etymology~~
I'm almost certain there used to be such a page on Wikipedia, listing all the borough names, notable streets, squares, etc. with their respective etymologies. But now I can't find it anymore. Is it still around somewhere deeply hidden or was it scrapped?
In either case, can anyone suggest a place where I can find a list similar to Etymological list of counties of the United Kingdom, only about London?
212.186.80.57 10:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~The individual articles referring to the boroughs, streets and squares, possibly? I'm not sure. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 11:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
Thanks for replying so fast. You're right but skimming through all the articles about London (some 17k of them, Google says) would be too much even for such a (passive) Wikipedia junkie as myself. Besides, it must be aggregated somewhere. So far I have found Knowledge of London's London Street Names but what I once saw on Wikipedia would still be better. Is it possible to search through deleted pages? 212.186.80.57 15:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fairly sure that you've been hallucinating. The article doesn't exist: if it did, it would include words such as Gīsla and Hundeslawe from which the names of boroughs derive, but these are only found in the individual borough pages: [5]. A page such as that which contained useful information would not be deleted. In fact, googling for those two names produces 0 hits, so it seems that this information is not aggregated anywhere on the net. Henry ^Flower 15:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry for wasting your time. Apparently I was wrong - although I still can't believe it the facts are ruthless. I have searched through the Web Archive and there is no single trace of such a page. It seems the only source of semi-aggregated information on the topic is the USENET group uk.local.london with threads such as this. I have also found some references to printed sources and the Knowledge of London page I mentioned earlier. As User:Greatgavini correctly pointed out, Wikipedia has this information scattered across various individual articles, but an aggregated article is yet to be written. Hopefully someone will do it someday for the benefit of curious tourists :) 212.186.80.57 18:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Request split for schwa article~~
I think the schwa article should be split into two - schwa (letter) and mid central vowel. Schwa is a letter of Azerbaijani and Chechen alphabet and do not represent mid central vowel (actually it represents near-open front unrounded vowel). Please leave your message at talk:Schwa. thanks!--Hello World! 11:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~motivational words in Japanese~~
I'm looking to find out a few motivational words in Japanese and thier translations. Specifically relating to business affairs would be best. I'm looking for more culturally-based words, perhaps unique to or even slang in Japan, not just plain old words translated into Japanese. Thank you! --66.27.56.66 16:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC) 16:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC) Anne[reply]
~~There's "ganbatte!" for a start. Used as "Good luck!" but literally meaning something like Fight! or Struggle! 惑乱分からん 17:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
It has lots of grammatical variations too, like ganbarimasu “I shall try hard” and ganbaranakutcha (< ganbaranakereba naranai) “hang in there, keep going, stick it out”. You can say yoisho when people are lifting something heavy and working together. — Jéioosh 21:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Draconic vs. draconian~~
The Oxford and a number of other reputable dictionaries state that draconic and draconian are interchangeable, and both can mean either "relating to Draco" or "relating to dragons." Is there any consensus about which should be used for which?
On a related note, is the correct term dracology or draconology? Neon Merlin 16:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~The "relating to Draco" definition is more common than the "relating to dragons" definition, but both, I reckon, are interchangeable as their meaning can be deduced from the context.~~
Wiktionary lists both "dracology" and "draconology" as the study of dragons [6] - I'm not sure there is a word relating to the study of Draco's laws...Dracology, perhaps? Better not to coin neologisms though... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 17:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Is draco Greek or Latin? For an -ology the root should properly be Greek. It’s okay to coin neologisms as long as you try to get them right. Draconian is synonymous with draconic when discussing dragons or the constellation Draco. However, it seems the two are not synonymous when talking about oppressive rule. In that case draconian is obligatory and draconic is – to my ears at least – incorrect. I speak of “draconian laws and regulations” but never “*draconic laws and regulations”. — Jéioosh 20:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Right on. JackofOz 20:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"Draco", both for the name of the Archon of Athens and for the allegedly mythological animal, are the Latin rendering of Greek "Drakōn". So the "proper" form for the field of study is "draconology", and "dracology" is an etymological perversion. --Lambiam ^Talk 01:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Both senses (Draco and Dragon) come from the same Greek word (δράκων/Δράκων). However—in my experience at least—draconic is used more often while referring to dragons, and vice versa. OED lists neither dracology or draconology (or dragonology), but following from the example of demonology (also from Greek: δαίμων), I'd go with draconology (and also considering that the stem is dracon-, not drac-). :)—porg es_(talk) 01:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
To sum up what everyone seems to agree on, it would be useful to have the distinction (and it seems to occur in literature):
draconian: when related to Draco

draconic: when related to dragons
~~...and the study of dragons is draconology.~~
~~Stress in Hebrew~~
~~What are the precise rules for the location of stress in Hebrew words (or where are the rules listed)? Mo-Al 23:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~I don't know what you mean by "precise" rules but see Sounds in New Hebrew. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~Is this good French?~~
~~The Wikipedia article on copyright infringement links to a French one with an absurdly long title, so I made this phrase up myself. Is this how it should be written?~~
~~Ceci n'est pas une infraction de copyright.~~
~~This is not an infringment of copyright. —porg es_(talk) 01:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
It does not sound idiomatic to me (in French: Ceci n'est pas un idiotisme.), although it is used here (see the last sentence). Try violation du droit d'auteur. --Lambiam ^Talk 01:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~But be careful: copyright and author's rights (or moral rights) are different things. One can violate author's rights without violating copyright. - Nunh-huh 02:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
I don't know the context in which this will be used. Is it in a discussion of U.S. copyright? Our article on French copyright law states: 'Based on the "right of the author" (droit d'auteur) instead of on "copyright", its philosophy and terminology are different from those used in copyright law in common law jurisdictions.' --Lambiam ^Talk 07:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Sentences beginning "Yes, no..."~~
It is very common for New Zealanders to begin conversational sentences with "Yes, no...". For example:
Statement: I love your new car! Response: Yes, no, I only picked it up at the weekend.
Does anyone know if this is a uniquely New Zealand habit? Or do speakers of English in other countries do the same? If you're able to cite any articles that would really help.
203.173.157.111 02:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC) Alison[reply]
I do it! I'm an NZer, however. I would say that the "yes" part is the key: rather than the intention being a literal "yes", it's more an indication that the speaker has heard and acknowledged the person they are responding to. I'm sure there's a better linguistic term for it, but phatic would be a good place to start. Ziggurat 02:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's "Yeah, nah..." [7] ;) —porg es_(talk) 05:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, no, it's become extremely common across the Tasman in Australia too. I've read probably half a dozen newspaper articles over the past couple of years about the phenomenon, so linguists and others are certainly taking note of it. What I've also noticed is people saying straight out "no" when they obviously mean a very definite "yes". Such as: Q. Are you happy with the new car you bought last month? A. No, it's really fantastic. This never seems to confuse the questioner, who always knows what the answerer means. This is a great example of how body language and voice tone play a far greater role in communication than the formal meanings of words. JackofOz 06:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The "No" in the "Are you happy? / No, I'm ecstatic!" exchange is ~~called "metasyntactic negation" IIRC. --Kjoonlee 08:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)~~[reply]
not called metasyntactic negation, but "metalinguistic negation." --Kjoonlee 08:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's unique to Antipodean English, though. I've been heard to start sentences "Yeah, no, ...", and the furthest south I've ever been in my life is Brownsville, Texas. User:Angr 08:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There you go, then. I wonder where it first started. And, more importantly, why on Earth it started and why it has become so deeply ingrained in conversational idiom so apparently quickly. JackofOz 13:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Amature at Cherokee Language~~
~~Please tell me if eji wahya is the proper wording for Mother Wolf. --69.23.201.248 03:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~Wedding poem/reading ideas~~
I'd appreciate a little help. I'm looking for a poem or passage suitable for a reading during a wedding. I've tried various combinations of search terms on Google but I keep getting the same core 10-15 readings. It's like all the sites are basically copies of one another. The wedding will be outdoors, so if there's a nature angle to it that would be good but not required. I'm not looking for anything too heavy on religion though. The wedding is also just your standard U.S. sort without any ties to any specific ethnic traditions or anything. So, any ideas? Dismas|^(talk) 05:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Not knowing these people it's hard to give you advice. A poem with little artistic value, but not overly corny and neutral regarding religion and ethnicity is this one. --Lambiam ^Talk 06:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2013&version=31 is the classic Bible poetry. Brusselsshrek 11:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~"Condoning an illegal act"~~
Hi,
I have always beleived that the word "Fortiture" meant "condoning of an illegal act". Is this correct? Please could you advise the correct term and / or spelling.
Thanks,
Alan (e-mail address deleted)
No synonym of condoning that I can think of resembles this, "forgiveness" coming the closest. There is "forfeiture", which sounds similar but has an entirely different meaning. --Lambiam ^Talk 06:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Nearly an antonym, in fact. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Probably, Alan is referring to the word fortitude meaning a resilient character, able to withstand adversities. However, the word does not mean "condoning an illegal act".--Tachs 08:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Alternate or Alternative~~
Which is the correct form?
This is the Alternative route to the city
This is the Alternate route to the city
~~In this case, I would use alternate. Don't capitalize it, though, and use a period at the end of the sentence. —Bkell (talk) 06:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
It depends on the context. "Alternate" suggests to me something that comes into play because the regular route is blocked, like a section of some bridge is being replaced. "Alternative" suggests a voluntary choice, as in the following dialogue: "--This route leads through the slums; is there an alternative? --Yes, here is an alternative route to the city.". --Lambiam ^Talk 06:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"an alternative route" to me sounds the best, but if it must use the definite article then what Lambiam said. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think it depends where you're from. In the US, "alternate" is often used where speakers of British English would say "alternative". In Australia, we would definitely refer to the "alternative route". An "alternate route", to us, would sound like this time you take one way, then next time the other way, then next time the first way again, etc. JackofOz 07:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Going by the grammar books, "alternate" means "passing back and forth" when used as a verb. As an adjective, it suggests "substitute". Hence, it is correct to use "an altenate route". The word "alternative" means "substitute" as well as "choice".--Tachs 08:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~The alternate route is the alternative to the original route.--Anchoress 08:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
In the US, I believe "the alternate route" means that there are two routes, a primary and a secondary (called the alternate). "An alternative route", on the other hand, means there are an unspecified number of routes and this is just one of them. StuRat 08:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
You can only alternate (switch back and forth) between 2 things, whereas an alternative would be another possible choice (where they may or may not be just two choices, but there is certainly at least one other choice). Brusselsshrek 10:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In my experience (as a Canadian), alternate is only used as a verb and adjective, and alternative is only used as a noun. The exceptions (alternative rock, alternative energy sources) involve alternatives to "the mainstream;" even then, alternate seems to be used if it sounds better (alternate lifestyle).

Thus, the alternate route would be the alternative. Neon Merlin 14:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Japanese question~~
~~Is it true that Randori is based on the same root as Rambo? Many thanks. Arbitrary username 06:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
Probably a coincidence. It's true that 乱取り is randori and 乱暴 is ran + bō, but I doubt Rambo is named after 乱暴. --Kjoonlee 08:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to Rambo#Trivia, it seems based on the name Rambo apple, itself derived from a rare Swedish surname. 惑乱分からん 08:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~short vowels~~
~~I am studying short vowels. Can you please tell me what short vowel patterns VCCV and VCV are? thank you~~
Vowel-Consonant-Consonant-Vowel and Vowel-Consonant-Vowel? In the latter the first vowel would usually be long, but in the former it wouldn't, eg. wicker vs. wider. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~So is this referring to writing patterns? I wondered, since the "i" in wider, in modern English is a diphtong. 惑乱分からん 08:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
I think it's more about phonotactics/syllable structure. Wicker and wider are probably not meant to be examples of VCCV and VCV. I think "Andy" and "ago" would be better examples. The <o> in ago is a diphtong too, but the glide part of "ago" is redundant in phonemic transcription, unlike the glide part of "wider." --Kjoonlee 09:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, ago isn't a good example either, because the /o/ is long. Hmmm... "Andy" and "Abba?" --Kjoonlee 09:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, English isn't a good example to use it with. German's probably a better bet: denken vs. denen, maybe? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 10:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The first e in denen is long. Wicker is actually a good example of CVCV, since there's only one [k] sound between the two vowels. Winter exemplifies CVCCV. User:Angr 15:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~(nl) "kreeg ik" or "krijg ik"?~~
I am learning Dutch and am stuck...
I have this example from a text book:
~~Op den duur kreeg ik er genoeg van.~~
~~translated as:~~
~~In the end, I had enough of it~~
~~I'm not sure where "kreeg" comes from.~~
Is it "krijgen" (to get)?

Is the correct inverted form "kreeg ik"?

How does the "van" relate?
~~Thanks! Brusselsshrek 10:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
My Dutch is bad, but I think the literal translation is something like "up (about) this through got I it enough of". What is "inverted form"? That the words change place in a dependent clause? Sorry if this doesn't help. 惑乱分からん 11:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think by "inverted form" (s)he means the effects of V2 word order. If the sentence begins with an adverb (like op den duur), the verb follows the adverb and the subject follows the verb, rather than the verb following the subject. --Ptcamn 11:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Kreeg is the past tense of krijgen. The inverted form is correct (there's a phrase at the start telling you when you had enough. If there was no op den duur, it'd be Ik kreeg...) Van simply means "of", er meaning "it". - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 14:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Dank u wel Gavini! Thanks, that's just what I wanted to know. Brusselsshrek 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~I need help with translation~~
I don't know if it is a good place to ask about it so if anybody knows better - please, tell me about it.
If I wrote an article and I need some English native speaker to check it up what am I to do?
Nemuri 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Just put {{Copyedit}} at the top and wait a few months. There are unfortunately already about a thousand articles in Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit. User:Angr 15:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
~~Which article? Evilbu 16:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~
~~German Translation~~
~~How does one say "If you know him,. . ." in German? Reywas92 15:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]~~

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