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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Nexus Seven (talk | contribs) at 10:42, 11 August 2006 (→edit mediawiki). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

See the "project page" for the versions under discussion.

Reminder to programmers - keep in mind that there are non-programmers here too, so a little extra explaination to help the rest of us understand what you are talking about would be most appreciated.

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File:Wikipedia-browsebox-demo.gif
mockup example
browse

A suggestion for a new sidebar box.

Partially to replace some of the various navigation bars and boxes, eg {{Reference pages (header bar)}}, {{Reference pages (footer box)}}, {{List resources footer}}, {{Categorybrowsebar}}, and the former design and erratic placement of {{Browsebar}} and {{catbar}}(deleted).

And partially to provide the most concise summary of Wikipedia:Reference pages and Wikipedia:Start possible, in a permanently accessible location. Thoughts? --Quiddity 02:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone likes the general idea, there are many options for which links to include, where to put the box in the stack, and whether to try and merge some links from the "navigation" box (perhaps move some of the site tools like "recent changes" and "contact wikipedia" down to a new box)). --Quiddity 02:43, 6 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This is obviously a very significant change being suggested, and would need to be discussed by many people. I am simply bringing it up here first, to gauge initial reaction. Thanks. --Quiddity·(talk) 01:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I LOVE this idea, and I have some additional suggestions: linkify the names of each box on the sidebar (but remove "navigation" from the top box altogether), and modify this box to include referenct tables:

"Overview" became "Overviews", to prevent confusion with the Overview link on the Main Page. "Other index schemes" became the menu name "reference pages" (The page is now called Wikipedia:Reference pages.

I also have some suggestions for the rest of the sidebar:

"Recent changes" should be moved down to the toolbox. The toolbox menu name should be shortened to "tools" and linked to Wikipedia:Tools (though that page could and should be improved as part of this project).

The Help link in the navigation menu should be moved to the top of the list, or to the end of it, not buried in the middle. The name of the top menu box (navigation) should be removed, as it serves no purpose, and would be the primary function of the reference pages box - while the reference pages box would serve navigation of the encyclopedia proper much more directly and explicitly (while the navigation box has non-navigation pages listed in it).

The name of the search box ("search") should be linked to a searching superpage, with augmented search features and/or links to the best external wikipedia-specific search tools.

Quiddity, how did you create the mock up of the sidebar in the picture above?

--Nexus Seven 03:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly.
(mock up created with just cut and paste in XnView (freeware ACDsee replacement)) --Quiddity·(talk) 04:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Assuming enough people respond (we may have to create a project page for this and put notices up on high-traffic pages) and we reach a consensus on a new sidebar configuration, who could implement the changes to the sidebar? Won't that take modification of the PHP? We should get those people involved from the start, because they could provide guidance on what is and is not possible, so we don't go down a dead end and design something that isn't practical. --Nexus Seven 02:42, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I like the first one. It adds alot of user-friendlyness to Wikipedia. dposse 03:02, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Questions for programmers on the above Sidebar Redesign Proposal

What would it take to implement the above discussed changes to the Sidebar? I'm a bit unclear on the procedures involved here. Assuming we arrive at a final design via consensus building, what happens next? What files need to be changed? Is there code involved? Etc. --Nexus Seven 03:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, what do we need to keep in mind during the discussion of design specifications? Like what is and is not doable, etc. --Nexus Seven 03:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is trivial to add a new box in the existing software. Similarly, it would be no problem to modify the names on any of the boxes. Existing software doesn't allow links on the titles. Making them do so would take a bit of work (or javascript tricks) but is not impossible. The items displayed in the toobox are dynamically determined by page context, can't be modified in existing software, and I would suggest changing that would be a bad idea. Dragons flight 03:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know about MediaWiki:Sidebar ? --Splarka (rant) 07:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Here's another example of how this works (on a differenct wiki): http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Sidebar
What are Mediawiki:Navigation, Mediawiki:Search, and Mediawiki:Toolbox? Are these pages in any way relateed to the sidebar as is Mediawiki:Sidebar? --Nexus Seven 21:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
MediaWiki:Sidebar is used for everything above the searchbox. The ones you mentioned are the titles of the <h5>'s used in all the other side boxes. GeorgeMoney (talk) 04:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Further comments

As Splarka implied, the proposed updates seem fairly straight-forward 'coding' wise. Most aspects of the Wikipedia 'interface' are controlled by pages in the MediaWiki namespace. For instance, MediaWiki:Sidebar contains a line 'contact-url|contact'... which is evaluated as a call to MediaWiki:contact-url, which in turn points to Wikipedia:Contact us, and displays the link text as the contents of MediaWiki:Contact. Kind of roundabout in that case, but nothing tricky... though any changes would require an admin because the pages are protected. I doubt you'll need to get into CSS or javascript changes for this, but those are also found in the MediaWiki namespace at MediaWiki:Common.css, MediaWiki:Monobook.js, et cetera. --CBD 10:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

seems logical enough...I didn't know...thanks for the info. I don't completely agree with all of the content. I don't think the top should be links anyway. --gatoatigrado 20:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

third suggestion

version 3 - feel free to add more versions

Your examples are ambiguous between the "lists" and overviews. The "topics" links only give lists of things, which in my opinion aren't as useful. --gatoatigrado 21:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

integrate "contact wikipedia" to "help", most users know this. use small line breaks. --gatoatigrado 21:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

this organization of "contents" made more sense to me, with the last four links being what I would expect in the back of a paper encyclopedia. --gatoatigrado 22:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mock up (version 4)

The revisions I mentioned above would look something like this. I've added in the word "lists" to make the reference pages menu more semantically accurate:

Someone needs to fix the search box above, as I just threw together the closest approximation that I could find. It's supposed to look exactly like the current searchbox on the current sidebar, except that the box title is linkified (we can create an appropriate page as part of this project). I couldn't find the sourcetext for the real searchbox. I also didn't know how to create an internal link to the Wikimedia Foundation wiki's fundraising page, which should point to the dontations subheading of that page. The Random Article link above is dead, because I didn't know how to replicate it. Since the toolbox items are dynamically generated, I just left those blank. Since Recent changes can't be easily moved to the toolbox, I deemphasized it slightly by placing Random article above it. --Nexus Seven 22:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The internal links are with a prefix like w:, but I don't know - look on the template for "wikitionary has an article on <pagename>" or whatever. --gatoatigrado 22:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
got it (see project page). --gatoatigrado 23:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why did you delete the "featured pages" but not "random article" link? I think the former is much more valid. The "recent changes" seems to be more of a toolbox thing to me. --gatoatigrado 22:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't delete it, I moved it down to the Reference pages box. It is, after all, a list page, like all the other pages listed there. And it definitely fits the definition of "Reference page". --Nexus Seven 23:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
right, that's fine. What about moving "recent changes" to "toolbox"?

--gatoatigrado 23:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to Dragons Flight above, the toolbox menu is generated dynamically, and it would be very difficult to add items to it. Though since you are a programmer, you may know a way to implement this? --Nexus Seven 23:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The "categorical index" isn't an index. I liked my version better, mostly because of the order of things in "references pages". I actually think the header links are nice now that I see the mock-up. I also think we should have as few links as possible for simplicity, but it's a lesser issue than putting them in a logical order. --gatoatigrado 23:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Since it points to categories in the category system, and since the category system is a page indexing system, the categories page is also an index page. --Nexus Seven 23:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Indices are "usually arranged alphabetically" (index), not hierarchically, but I guess you're right. --gatoatigrado 23:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've moved Featured Articles and Current Events back up to the main menu, because the Reference Pages list was getting too long, and because these 2 pages aren't as general as the other pages listed in the Reference pages list. --Nexus Seven 00:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

ordering

if this is proposed to seriously replace the links on the entire Wikipedia project, it had better be perfected. I think "lists / glossary / index" makes sense, because it seems similar to the appendicies, glossary, and index in a print encyclopedia. --gatoatigrado 23:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, let's perfect it. I'm not too particular abou the order, as long as sufficient links are provided. I'd hate to see any major reference pages left out. --Nexus Seven 02:46, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm Very particular about there being a coherent ordering scheme behind their order, and would prefer a minimal quantity of links. We can always add links later on, but people will scream blue murder if things are removed later on.
I'll add another variant once we find out if it's even possible to have it below the search box (if it's not, then i'm against the whole thing). --Quiddity·(talk) 07:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

random/recent to toolbox

I like it this way; these pages aren't particularly useful anymore because there are so many recent changes, and random article isn't that useful. It's farther down, and it's sort of a special page, not article. --gatoatigrado 23:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've found random article to be extremely useful. It helps break mental blocks, and it is a great navigation tool. You never know what is going to pop up. I've found some very interesting articles using Random article, even some that were relevant to my interests, that I never thought of looking up directly, as I didn't even know they existed as topics. But that's just me. We need to see what the community at large feels about this. But according to Dragons Flight, above, we can't add anything to the toolbox. It is dynamically generated, and would take a programming, rather than an editing, fix. But we can explore this further. That's why I've invited programmers to this discussion: to find out what is doable and what isn't. What are your thoughts about the doability of changing the programming of the dynamically generated toolbox menu? --Nexus Seven 23:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that they should be moved to the toolbox menu, if a way can be found to make this work. --Nexus Seven 23:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

sorry I moved this to another place; I read your comment above. I have a mediawiki on my site and I'll see if it can be done easily. Otherwise, I guess it's fine as is. --gatoatigrado 23:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No worries. This discussion may take longer to complete than the one week granted on Village Pump Proposals. So moving the discussion was a good thing. --Nexus Seven 00:47, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there do we loose permalink in the mock versions 3 & 4. If it's gonna be that way, I oppose to such a modification. Lincher 02:55, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The toolbox remains pretty much the same - we have no way to change it (that I know of), and it is different on different pages because it is dynamically generated. The proposal above was to add two items to it, while not removing any. I've added the missing items to the mock-up - leaving them out is just confusing, even though their inclusion is explained above. --Nexus Seven 02:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What can and can't be done.

I know for a fact the toolbox cannot be changed; it would affect every wiki that WMF operates. Also, things really can't be placed below the search box, sadly. Most of the rest can be done; I'll organize an example in a few minutes. Ral315 (talk) 04:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Without changing MediaWiki at all, see here. Ral315 (talk) 04:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
um, why are you saying you can't change the toolbox? I just did. see section below. --gatoatigrado 04:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
See Dragons flight's comment and mine above - editing the toolbox changes the toolbox on every single wiki operated by the Wikimedia Foundation. Ral315 (talk) 04:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I just discovered it is possible to embed raw HTML into Mediawiki:Navigation, Mediawiki:Search, and the like, which control the headings on sidebar items. This would allow one to add links to those headers without any modifications to the existing codebase. Dragons flight 06:27, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
oh okay...neat. Do you have an example? --gatoatigrado 06:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I edited MediaWiki:Search and the html only displayed on the MediaWiki page. Are you using a different version? I'm using 1.6. --gatoatigrado 06:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, it apparently only works on Mediawiki:Sidebar headers (e.g. Mediawiki:Navigation) but not on Search or Toolbox. Dragons flight 07:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If this-hypothetical-box cannot be placed beneath the search box, I believe the whole idea needs to be dropped. Moving the search box lower in it's placement on the page is totally unacceptable. --Quiddity·(talk) 07:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If the consensus agrees, then certainly. But the Reference Page links would be extremely useful to have access to from every page on Wikipedia, and the consensus may be that it is worthwhile to lower the search box. As long as it is still on the page, there shouldn't be any problem. There is still much to explore, and we may find a way, or a compromise. Just keep an open mind, and help us find one. --Nexus Seven 09:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

site-wide vs per-page tools

In regards to changing it across all wikis, and because those whom know about such things are reading, I just wanted to mention that the per-page and sitewide links are slightly confusingly organised, and could potentially be better grouped/seperated?

eg. this is what we currently have:

  • What links here - per-page
  • Related changes - per-page
  • Upload file - sitewide
  • Special pages - sitewide
  • Printable version - per-page
  • Permanent link - per-page

I don't have a solution, just wanted to mention it. --Quiddity·(talk) 07:09, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

programming

done, in 4.46 hours. Not bad for being rather unfamiliar (only adding preg expressions to my mediawiki). I guess some time I'll appreciate the complexity of the code; for now it seems a bit excessive. Only English for now though. Look at it at http://wiki.ntung.com. --gatoatigrado 04:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The same code operates every wiki run by the Wikimedia Foundation and is widely distributed to be run on other sites. As a result, any changes to the code should be such that the present appearance is preserved by default, and such changes are acceptable across all skins / languages. (No one ever said it was easy to be a Mediawiki hacker.) Dragons flight 04:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

still working on links for "search" and "toolbox", sorry if the site is down for a few minutes. --gatoatigrado 04:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

formatted diff

diff at Image:Sidebar_changes.pdf. I recommend you apply the changes manually to help catch errors. --gatoatigrado 05:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

annotated diff

diff -dHrN old/Messages.php new/Messages.php
29,30d28

two lines below unnecessary, tried editing before I found MediaWiki:Sidebar was the only effective editing 

< ** recentchanges-url|recentchanges
< ** randompage-url|randompage

four lines below for page links in English 

173a172
> 'search_page'		=> 'Gwiki:Search',
202a202
> 'toolbox_page' => 'Gwiki:Tools',
diff -dHrN old/MonoBook.php new/MonoBook.php
144c144,148

text below for adding header links in the monobook style page 

< 	<?php foreach ($this->data['sidebar'] as $bar => $cont) { ?>
---
> <?php $bar_data = $this->data['sidebar'];
> 	foreach ($bar_data as $bar => $cont) {
> 		if($bar == "headinginfo") { continue; }
> 		$heading_name = wfMsg($bar); if (wfEmptyMsg($bar, $heading_name)) $heading_name = $bar;
> 		$bar_link = htmlspecialchars($bar_data['headinginfo'][$bar]['href']); ?>
146c150,151
< 		<h5><?php $out = wfMsg( $bar ); if (wfEmptyMsg($bar, $out)) echo $bar; else echo $out; ?></h5>
---
> <?php if(!empty($heading_name))
> 			echo("\t\t<h5><a href=\"$bar_link\">$heading_name</a></h5>\n"); ?>
157c162
< 	<?php } ?>
---
> <?php } ?>

text below for search link 

159c164
< 		<h5><label for="searchInput"><?php $this->msg('search') ?></label></h5>
---
> 		<h5><label for="searchInput"><a href="<?php echo($this->data['sidebar']['headinginfo']['search']['href']); ?>"><?php $this->msg('search') ?></a></label></h5>

text below for toolbox link 

173c178
< 		<h5><?php $this->msg('toolbox') ?></h5>
---
> 		<h5><a href="<?php echo($this->data['sidebar']['headinginfo']['toolbox']['href']); ?>"><?php $this->msg('toolbox') ?></a></h5>

text below for adding recent changes and random page to the toolbox 

200c205
< 		foreach( array('contributions', 'blockip', 'emailuser', 'upload', 'specialpages') as $special ) {
---
> 		foreach( array('contributions', 'blockip', 'emailuser', 'upload', 'specialpages', 'recentchanges', 'randompage') as $special ) {
diff -dHrN old/Skin.php new/Skin.php

text below for search and toolbox links 

1453a1454,1455
> 		$bar["headinginfo"]["search"] = array( 'href' => $this->makeInternalOrExternalUrl(wfMsg('search_page')) );
> 		$bar["headinginfo"]["toolbox"] = array( 'href' => $this->makeInternalOrExternalUrl(wfMsg('toolbox_page')) );
1454a1457,1458
> 		//print_r($lines);
> 		//echo("lines = ".$lines);

text below for MediaWiki:Sidebar heading links 

1459,1460c1463,1467
< 				$line = trim($line, '* ');
< 				$heading = $line;
---
> 				$line = explode('|', trim($line, '* '), 2);
> 				$heading = $line[1];
> 				$bar["headinginfo"][$heading] = array(
> 						'href' => $this->makeInternalOrExternalUrl($line[0])
> 				);
1483a1491
> 		//print_r($bar);
diff -dHrN old/SkinTemplate.php new/SkinTemplate.php

text below for adding recent changes and random page to toolbox 

774a775,776
> 		$nav_urls['recentchanges'] = array('href' => $this->makeSpecialUrl('Recentchanges'));
> 		$nav_urls['randompage'] = array('href' => $this->makeSpecialUrl('Random'));

good luck cleaning it up. --gatoatigrado 05:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

As I said above, you can't make changes that affect the default behavior on other wikis using the same code or that give unexpected results in other skins. Consequently, many of the modifications you have laid out here have no chance of being accepted in this form. Dragons flight 06:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
are you suggesting that there's something more appropriate than a diff? --gatoatigrado 06:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, you are not understanding me. The same code that runs the English Wikipedia runs dozens of other sites. Any changes to that code have to be compatible with ALL the sites running Mediawiki software. Since your changes would impact those other sites, they will not be accepted. Any changes have to be accomplished in ways that perserve the status quo for all other sites that don't want to change their sidebar. Dragons flight 07:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Testing

If anyone wants to test changing the sidebar on a real wiki, a public test wiki is available at: http://wiki.xyrael.net/mediawiki/index.php/Main_Page . Just ask me (or anyone else who is there) to make you a sysop there, and I will. Just remember, that when you are done testing on the sidebar, please revert yourself so others can test too. GeorgeMoney (talk) 05:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

PS: The reason this is more significant than other peoples' test wikis is that it is public and sysop is handed out free. GeorgeMoney (talk) 05:05, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In order to make the changes necessary, the php files have to be edited. --gatoatigrado 05:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
sysop doesn't let you do that. tell me and I can try anything on my wiki. perhaps we can get someone experienced in changing mediawiki. --gatoatigrado 05:41, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not talking about the toolbox, just testing the MediaWiki:Sidebar . No software changes. GeorgeMoney (talk) 05:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think Ral already did that (just editing MediaWiki:Sidebar) above. --gatoatigrado 05:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but only ral can edit MediaWiki:Sidebar. Here, sysop status is granted freely, so anyone can edit the sidebar. GeorgeMoney (talk) 05:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think we only need to edit it once when we decide on pages. Besides, to be language neutral, the Messages__.php pages have to be edited and then MediaWiki:Sidebar can be edited. I don't see any reason why we can't decide on the format of links here. --gatoatigrado 06:01, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

More changes

I propose considering some of the following options:

1. Change the link in top navbar from Featured Articles to Featured Content. Wikipedia has more featured stuff to offer than articles alone and we should emphasize that; from the featured content page, the featured articles (as well as other featured categories) are easily accessible. 1.1 Following 1, remove redundant Featured Content link from main page, together with the already planned removal of Categories and A-Z index.

I think "categories" is useful. Featured content is okay but featured articles already shows featured content. --gatoatigrado 06:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

2. Add another bar just under the reference navbar saying something like "using wikipedia" or "help" or "accessibility", containing all the stuff from top left of main page (overview, searching, editing, questions. Also move "help" from navbar #1 to this navbar, perhaps making it number 1 on list). 2.1 Remove now redundant links from the main page

a separate help section makes it way too long. --gatoatigrado 06:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These changes will allow important links to be on every page rather than main page (traffic linked to a particular article, which due to search enginges is probably greater than main page traffic, will see all main links on all pages; at the same time, it'll allow the removal of the whole friggning text line on main page between header and body, making a much nicer design.

what line between the header and the body? --gatoatigrado 06:32, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
He's talking about this line:
Overview · Searching · Editing · Questions · Help

Categories · Featured content · A–Z index

But since the main page has one-click access from everywhere just by clicking on the globe, that gives the links on the above line two-click access, which ain't bad to begin with. I doubt there's room for them on the sidebar -- we're having enough trouble fitting/placing one extra box of items. --Nexus Seven 10:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

delete or combine topic lists / combine indices

"basic topic lists" is a much better page. --gatoatigrado 06:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These two lists go hand-in-hand. "topic lists" has much more comprehensive coverage and and caters to more advanced users, while "basic topic lists" is aimed at beginners (we're all beginners in something, right?) They are both essential, and the layout on "topic lists" can be improved easily enough. Since they are brother and sister, is there a way we can put them both tastefully on a single line? Like this, maybe. And while we're at it, combine the indices on one line as well:

This shortens the box, so it won't push the search box as far down the page. --Nexus Seven 10:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

delete alphabetical index

the search function obsoletes this. --gatoatigrado 06:28, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

but some users prefer an index over a search function. Electionworld (prev. :Wilfried) (talk 07:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think we should keep it. Browsing and searching are two sides of the same coin. Removing either defaces the coin. "A-Z /" takes up just 5 characters, so it could easily be included on the same line as the categorical index. See my suggestion under the previous heading (directly above). --Nexus Seven 10:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

edit mediawiki

I'll try to edit my wiki later sometime so that the Mediawiki:Sidebar is better. The current schemes aren't very dynamic...

These changes should be made to MediaWiki first (to make it more "dynamic"), then Wikipedia - simply editing links.

It would be neat to have a MediaWiki:Sidebar like 

* navigation-url|navigation
** link1_url|link1_text

* search_url|search
** {{#searchfield}}

* any_other_table
** link3_url|link3_text

* toolbox
** {{WhatLinksHere}}
** {{UploadFile}}
** link4_url|link4

etc. --gatoatigrado 06:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If it could be implemented so that the "other table" is optional, then it wouldn't affect the other wikis. Can you do this? --Nexus Seven 10:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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