Talk:Capitalism

Talk History

Would anyone be interested in me establishing a history of capitalism article?

I reverted two changes: first, the capitalism that the article describes developed in the 16th century and after -- when was a capitalist system in place prior? Second, capitalist practices are not derived from feudalism. Slrubenstein

The ancient Mesopotamian states were capitalist, as were Greece and Rome. How is capitalism not derived from feudalism? Is there not a significant relationship between the feudal aristrocracy and the capitalist upperclass? Susan Mason 23:06 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

We may be getting into a matter of semantics, but I do not know of any theorist of capitalism who defines it in a way that would include Babylonian city-states, or the Roman Empire. Moreover, there is the opposite of a significant relationship between the Feudal aristocracy and the capitalist elite -- the bourgeois supported the French revolution, initially, and the rise of the House of Commons (along with the decline of the power of the monarchy and the House of Lords) is another example -- in the 18th century the bourgeoisie and the nobility were antagonistic classes. The rise of European capitalism involved a real break from feudal legal and political structures too.

One could -- indeed, I think one should say that all states, including ancient Mesopotamian states, the Greek city-states, and Rome, as well as all current nation-states, are "stratified," that is, divided into unequal socio-economic classes. In this context, you could say that the Feudal aristocracy and the Capitalist elite are similar in that they are at the top of their repsective societies. But how they got to the top, what it means to be at the top, what their values and behaviors are, are quite different. This, at least, is what I have gathered from most of the scholarly works I have read -- if there is a body of scholarship you know of that makes a different article, it should by all means by summarized in the article, Slrubenstein

Its definitely a matter of semantics. Define capitalism as having private property, corporate merchant groups, banks and interest rates, foreign trade and balances of trade, surplus and defecits, stocks and insurance, marketplaces and markets, power vaccums and zero-sum games, and you've just described the economy of Shinar some thousands of years ago.

For some the crucial issue is the dominance of a free labor market; for others, it is the items you mention on a global scale. By these criteria I doubt that Shinar counts -- but I think you are making a different, perhaps narrower, but in my opinion especially important point: that many elements of our contemporary economy existed in the distant past. I think that this information, in detail, should be in Wikipedia -- perhaps in this article, or perhaps better in an article on market economies (capitalism being one example but not the only kind). I haven't read any theorist who claims that only "capitalist" economies" have private property, banks, or foreign trade. But if you know of scholarly literature on capitalism or on Shinar that argues that it was capitalist, that should be put in. The important thing here is our NPOV policy -- it isn't what you or I think capitalism is, or how best to characterize SHinar's economy, it is the body of scholarship.

While there is certainly a difference between fedualism and capitalism, this difference being much greater than the difference between mercantilism and capitalism, it is still true that capitalism in following feudalism is thus at least potentially influenced heavily by said feudalism, and is actually quite heavily influenced and derived from said system. In France, many of the older aristocratic manufacturies lasted up until the World War era.

Granted, the French king may have lost some power in France, but many of the local merchants and owners remained in power. The difference between feudalism and capitalism does not so much seem, to me, to be an economic difference, so much as there is a governmental or legalistic difference, that is, modern capitalism tends to be the economic system of republics, rather than monarchies. However, the actual technical details of how the economy works are quite similar.

Well, I am just going by scholars I have read, like Perry Anderson, Maurice Dobb, and Robert Brenner, and also Wallerstein. Who are you referring to? Slrubenstein

As you said, "The rise of European capitalism involved a real break from feudal legal and political structures." Which I agree with, however, as far as the structure of how economics worked, THAT remained much the same, and this is why I say that capitalism is derived from feudalism as a term describing a historical era, and at the same time, capitalism really is much the same thing as both feudalism and mercantilism when viewed SOLELY as an economic phenomenon, which is why I state that capitalism did exist far before it was "institutionalized" in modern Europe. Susan Mason

This view is at variance with the vast majority of scholarship. It's an arguable point of view, but I doubt that many (any?) serious historians would accept it. Two key differences (among many) are that pre-capitalist economies operated within a context that involved a great deal of implied non-cash mutual obligation, and that non-capitalist market economies did not generally allow for mobility between social classes. (This last is not simply a social matter, it has profound implications for economic behaviour as well.) Tannin 23:48 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

Instead of defining capitalism as "The economic policies institutionalized during such and such a period", perhaps it would be best to use some more informative definition of capitalism? My understand of capitalism involves some economic system involving private property, wages, corporate merchant groups, banks and interest rates, foreign trade and balances of trade, surplus and defecits, stocks and insurance, marketplaces and markets, etc.

The second part of the article notes how there is much debate as to what the definition of capitalism is. Perhaps we should use something like that as the beginning of the article, rather than immediately declaring that capitalism first appeared around the 1500s. Susan Mason

I think these proposals are worth discussing, but I wouldn't want to act until there was more discussion -- the current introduction was itself the product of a long proces. I have two immediate responses: first, I think the current version's introductory definition is good in that all scholars I know of, across disciplines and the ideological spectrum, agree that corporations privately owning capital, and the labor market, are essential to capitalism. You present a long list and there may be some theorists who use this list to define capitalism, but I know for certain that many scholars would disagree. The article should provide an account of the debate -- but any opening definition should be something that many agree to.

Offhand I think I agree with your second suggestion, except that there is always a horse and cart issue: since many of the debates over what capitalism is are based on different readings of history, it is hard to make sense of these debates unless one already knows some of the history. Still, it's worth thinking about. Slrubenstein