Talk:Romani people
Rom
Folks, it's my understanding that these people call themselves "Rom" and consider Gypsy / Gypsies derogatory terms. How do we want to handle this?
- I thought Rom was just one group of gypsies, the other being the Sinti? -- Simon J Kissane
Wow, this is even more complicated than I thought. :-) My main point was, "Do we want to list people under a term they consider offensive?" Comments?
I say yes, lets definitely not use words that might be considered derogatory. Maybe something like "Rom and Sinti"? (You might want to check first that I am correct about there being two groups with these names -- I'm not entirely sure, I just vaguely remember that there were something like that.)
Imagine that someone who knows nothing about that topic comes here and looks up "gypsies". You don't really want to throw a "not found" at them, do you ? Better -- Do use derogatory words as page titles. Make those pages very short -- briefly say the term is derogatory (some readers may not know), and link to the page titled with the term those people prefer. -- DavidCary
Also: what relation, if any, do Irish Travellers have to gypsies? -- Simon J Kissane
- None, except that they're both traditionally semi-nomadic people and, this being the West, those that still move around tend to live in caravans. I thought the articles on the Roma and on Irish Travellers weren't confusing on this issue, so there's no need to change anything? -- Aleph
- Please add as much as you can. Rmhermen 00:24, May 22, 2004 (UTC)
And for that matter, what's the difference between the Roma and the Sinti? The article goes to great lengths to say they're different, then doesn't tell us why. -- Paul Drye
Caught something the other night on some educational station (150 channels and can't keep them straight...) saying that at this point Romany has actually got a huge amount of loanwords from mostly central and eastern Europe, making it a kind of hybrid language (in the way that yiddish is). Anybody know anything about that? JHK
Gypsy
An interestingly PC entry, in that every single reference in the entry calls them Gypsies, and that even the current use of "Gypsy" way outweighs the term "Roma and Sinti". I know I'd never heard of them. This goes against our basic policy of have the entry name be the common form. --The Cunctator
- We should probably have a redirect from Gypsy to Roma (and Sinti, I guess, although I've never heard of them); if the Roma don't like the term, then don't use it. It's the same reason I changed San to Bushman: the word San has gained much popularity because this is "more politically correct" than Bushman (according to anthropologists), but it transpires that San is a Nama word for outsider, and the Bushmen themselves dislike it, preferring Bushman. I'm pretty sure that if we had a page about the "Indians" rather than "Native Americans", we'd get quite a backlash from some sections of the aboriginal American population. thefamouseccles 00:36 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)
India
I know about a Roma legend that says that they simply fled India in front of foreign occupation, to avoid being slaughtered. Shouldn't this be mentioned along 'great mysteries of history'? Also, last year in Belgrade there was a concert of a band from India (called "Raja" if I recall well) that played "traditional Roma music". Now, the article says that there are no Roma in India... Nikola 06:32, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)
The source for this is an expedition undertaken by a writer who was accompanied by a British gypsy through Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Pakistan and India. East of Iran no one recognizable by the gypsy as gypsies was encountered although there were people in Afganistan who resembled Roma. It is well known that India is the origin of the Roma, but there just is no one in India that answers to the description or lives the Roma lifestyle. If there is tell us about it. Fred Bauder 06:14, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Romania
In Romania they are refered as "tzigani", but this is more a derogatory term. I heard that in their language (Roma) means "man good for nothing", but I have no sure source. After communism fall, it was somehow offially imposed to call them rrom/rroms (with 2 r). [User:Mihai]
Caravans
"...continue their nomadic lifestyle traveling in caravans (small trailer homes), but..."
Really ? The stereotype I see on TV is that gypsies travel in "caravans (a group of several horse-drawn wagons travelling together)".
- Note that television stereotypes only have a coincidental relationship with reality... Very, very few Roma still use horse-drawn caravans, due to the difficulties of finding grazing land in much of Western Europe, the slow pace, the limited facilities. Those who do still travel (again a minority of Roma, I believe) use car/lorry-drawn caravans (the trailer sort - 'caravan' having a slightly different meaning in the US than the UK where I'm from) and maybe motorhomes. -- Aleph
Languages
As I was reading wikitravel (for example, http://wikitravel.org/en/article/Paris ), I thought -- how appropriate that the #2 language on a travel website is *not* the #2 language spoken by people on the internet, but the language spoken by the nomadic Roma.
But now I'm not so sure -- is the "Română" language mentioned there really the Romanian language spoken in the country of Romania ? Is that the same or different from the "Calé ... Romany" language (Romany_language) spoken by the nomadic Roma and Sinti ?
Of course not. Romany is derived from an Indian language. Romanian is derived from Latin. Fred Bauder 11:09, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)
Meaning of "Roma"
Mihai, Roma does NOT mean "man good for nothing" in Romany (the language of the Roma). I mean, who would call themselved "good for nothing"?? Roma is the plural of Rom and in Romany means "men" or "people."
Parents selling their kids
I've always heard the story that parents sell their bad kids to Gypsies. Now, that's probably not true. But, what's the origin of that story?
Sinti and Roma
I'm a Sinti woman myself and I live in Germany. And all I can say it is true we don't like to be called Gypsies because it is a discrimination for us. Some people here still look very strange when I tell them that I'm a Sinti like I wouldn't speak German or something like that.
Discrepancy
On the one hand, this article says, "It is virtually impossible to identify Roma still living in India." And yet, there is an entire section divoted to similar bands of peoples in Northern India. This discrepancy should be addressed.
Article moved
Why has this article been moved with no explanation? And why has all mention of the Sinti been removed? If there is a reason, please explain. Rmhermen 00:39, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)
- Sinti has a separate article. Would you like to have an article English and Americans ? Mikkalai 02:49, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I have yet again moved the article (SORRY!!). I believe this version to be more of the liking of the majority. --Cantus 03:15, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- But this article says that Sinti are a tribe of Roma! There is a quote just above from a Sinti who didn't find the previous combination strange. The Sinti article has a question on the talk page asking why it is not integrated here. This is a mess. The people section doesn't mention Eastern Europe except the Balkans. And the immigration to North American isn't covered -not even on Timeline of Roma history which completely contradicts the "Indian connection" section on this page (look at the dates). The page we link to says the four tribes are "Kalderash, the Machavaya, the Lovari, and the Churari"; we say 3 tribes - Kalderash, Gitanos, Manush (called Sinti). (The linked page gives "other groups include Romanichal, the Gitanoes (Calé), the Sinti, the Rudari, the Manush, the Boyash, the Ungaritza, the Luri, the Bashaldé, the Romungro, and the Xoraxai.) Other term we haven't explained include Vlach (Vlax), Ludar (Ursari), Romnichels (Rom'nies), Machwaya. Rmhermen 03:28, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)
- A thought - should the article perhaps mention some of the Romanes words in order to make the talk of Romani subgroups more clear? It might be useful to explain how the Kalderash, Lovari, Machavaya and Churari are all Vlach/Vlax Rom, then you've got the Sinti, Romanichal and Gitanos at a similar level of organisation (ie biggest scale). Then come what the article call 'tribes', but in Romanes and academia are known as 'natsia' - the subdivisions of Vlach Roma into Kalderash, Machvaya, Lovari and Churari. Mentioning the 'kumpania' (a unit who travel and live together) and 'familia' (extended family) would also be worthwhile (these might be specifically Vlax terms - I'm not familiar with other groups so'm not certain). -- Aleph
- Another problem. This page [1] says that "Roma" is correct only in the Machwaya dialect of Romany. Other dialects use "Rom" as singular and plural. Rmhermen 03:43, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)
Largest minority
I removed the claim that the Roma are the "largest minority in Europe" since it is not clear what it means and I can't see in what sense it can be true. It clearly can't be literal (eg. people of the male gender are a minority in Europe!). Not can it mean "ethnic minority", since the Slavs, for example, are a far larger minority of Europeans. In the common sense of "people who are in a cultural minority in the area in which they live", I would imagine that they are outnumbered by Muslims, even in predominantly non-Muslim countries of Europe. If there is a sense in which it is true, by all means put it back with some clarification! Cambyses 06:19, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
- I would have said "largest non-Caucasian minority in Europe" but when I check our article on Caucasian I find that I am using a North American definition of Caucasian and that the other definition includes Turks (the second largest minority) and probably even Roma as Caucasian. Rmhermen 13:06, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)
For what its worth, given that the population of Istanbul alone is estimated between 11 and 15 million, I think there must be more Turks than Roma in Europe, too.... Cambyses 14:27, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Istanbul is definitely in Europe. You're right that Asia Minor (which forms most of Turkey by area) is not usually considered European, but there is a small part of Turkey on the Western side of the Bosphorus strait, which is as much a part of Europe as neighbouring Greece and Bulgaria. That is where Istanbul is located. Cambyses 01:46, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Economic and crime discussion
I think the discussion of crime and economic factors should be expanded, as it's a rather complex issue. The article makes it sound like it's simply a discriminatory myth that "gypsies" are thieves, but it's actually a fact that in many areas, especially tourist-filled areas, Roma women and even (or perhaps especially) children make up a large proportion of the pickpockets, as well as engaging in somewhat deceptive and aggressive "marketing practices" like thrusting items into peoples' hands and then demanding payment. This is partly due to the fact that there are few economic opportunities in modern European society for nomadic peoples, and fewer still for people who aren't of the majority ethnicity (many Spaniards would prefer not to hire Roma, for example). People being surrounded by groups of "gypsy children", some of whom distract the tourist while the others steal a wallet, are fairly common in Rome, Seville, and even some cities in Greece. --Delirium 09:26, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)
Enlightened Spanish King?
Article mentions "an enlightened Spanish king" who tried to forcibly integrate Roma into the mainstream. Can we have a name, or maybe a reference? adoarns 19:28, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)
- This link is a brief history of the persecution of the Gypsies in Spain. I'll turn it into a section of the article later, unless someone else beats me to it. — Miguel 17:47, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)
Furthermore, if true this is not "full integration", it's "forced assimilation", and I am editing accordingly. No citation on what king, I have no idea if it's true, I just don't want to see the word integration abused. -- Jmabel 07:17, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)
- I agree with you. Although I did not write that paragraph I think i can offer an explanation.
- "Enlightened" refers to the historical period known as The Enlightenment. I would guess that the article refers to Charles III of Spain, but I am not sure. These kings were also called "enlightened despots", something like the more modern phrase "benevolent dictator".
- The Enlightened Kings and their ministers were generally forward-thinking and well-meaning, but absolutely socially and culturally insensitive. They thought they could solve social problems with a stroke of the legislative pen, but more often than not their reforms created new problems in place of the old ones. It is entirely possible that they could not see the difference between social integration and cultural assimilation and would not have understood it if it had been explained to them. In fact, before the 20th century very few people, including anthropologists, understood that difference, and even today Western European countries with large immigrant populations have trouble achieving integration without assimilation.
- — Miguel 17:28, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)
POV
Romanians are especially embarrased by Romas traveling abroad, leading parasitic lives and recommending themselves as Romanians. For example in the early 90s numerous Romas used to travel to Western European cities and pose as victims of the Romanian communist regime and heroes of the Revolution - in fact just a ploy for begging.
This needs POV, at least. Rmhermen 03:29, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Ziehende Gäuner
- The German name Zigeuner is believed to be derived from Ziehende Gäuner, which means 'travelling thief'.
I think that's wrong. Zigeuner probably is derived from tzigane, a term which is also used by Slavs, Romanians, etc. Most likely the term borrowed by Germans from the east, as the Balkan people met them before the Germans. Bogdan | Talk 19:07, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Gypsy = Pejorative
I disagree with AndyL's comment, "it's either pejorative or it's not. "known to them pejoratively" is a nonsensical statement" and with the respective edit. The original statement was quite accurate.
The term "Gypsy" (in Romanian: "ţigan") is the common/traditional word used to name the Rroma in Romania. In itself the word does not have a pejorative meaning. It may be used in a pejorative manner by people who believe that gypsies are a primitive, inferior people, but the name of ANY people can be used in this manner; the word "ţigan" is mostly used bona fide to identify members of the Rroma community.
However the Rroma themselves strongly dislike being called "ţigani". They use the word themselves as an insult to other Gypsies, or sometimes as a self-deprecating way to address their own people. In a way the word is similar to nigger, which is safely used by African Americans in reference to themselves but is seen as an insult if used by non-blacks - another example of word which has a pejorative meaning only in some contexts. FlorinI--