Talk:Dark wave

Hey folks, start an investigation! There is too much POV in this article! Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. And an encyclopedia isn't a book of fairytales!

Trying again =

I'm trying to restore my multiple-definitions approach, but I'm including a fourth definition now, the expansive definition that some of the dark wave fans here would seem to like to see used.

If you'd like to try and improve on this, that's great, but I ask you to remember that we're supposed to be *neutral* here, we're working on an encyclopedia entry, not a press release.

As for me, I'm not trying to diss your genre, I'm trying to describe all the meanings of "darkwave" that I think I've seen in use.

-- Doom 22:55, Mar 21, 2005 (UTC)

• It seems like there is a lot of disorganization in this discussion, and being new I wasn't sure where to chime in, but perhaps we should take the encyclopedia approach and see if some of the goth magazine web sites have some workable "darkwave" definition. I certainly would also include a reference to Leipzig's Wave-Gotik-Treffen, as it is a meeting of "wave gotik" music interests. There are also a number of European labels that promote the genre and we should consider working a few of them into the article. Basically I thinking the more connections with established festivals / magazines / labels, the more use the article will have. MCalamari 17:21, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

What's going on here?

I've got a bunch of small problems with this article, but let's lead with the one big one: what's going on here? If you're one of the people who have been working on re-writing it, I'd like you to ask yourself what your motives are exactly: are you trying to help make the term clear to someone who's never encountered it before? Or are you trying to make it seem more significant than it is to help out your scene/band/etc.?

On with the minutiae:

(0) My contention is that "darkwave" means different things to different people, which means that you need multiple definitions to explain it: this is okay, it happens. Look at the dictionary sometime. My writeup began with the german usage, which seems to have come first; then I talked about the Projekt label association which if anything is the first thing people think of in the US; and also mentioned some other associations (e.g. "dark new wave"). The distinctions between definitions have become totally blurred and the third meaning has been dropped completely. Let me repeat the main point here one more time: there is no one definition that will satisfy everyone: don't just delete a definition that doesn't work for you personally.

(1) The two names that I most often hear as examples of the original Darkwave are "Das Ich" and "Project Pitchfork", so that's what I lead my write-up with. Now "Project Pitchfork" has been removed: why?

(2) "Die Form" has been added, which is a great band to be sure, but it's also a band that has done a lot of different kinds of music, so using them as an example of Darkwave can't possibly clarify what you mean. Also, they're a french band, which makes it a little odd to use them in a discussion of german darkwave.

(3) There's a similar problems with "Android Lust": a woman from bangladesh raised in the US - first release in 1998. What has that to do with German darkwave in 1990 or so?

(4) When was the term "darkwave" first used? Not when did some band start playing that you can later call "darkwave", but when was the term first used? My claim is it came into play around the early 90s, *not* the mid-80s. Can you tell me different? Do you have any evidence? A printed review? Can you find someone from the german scene in the mid-80s who'll swear they started talking about darkwave the moment they heard "The Cure"?

Anyway, I may indluge in another re-write, though when I'm done I'm afraid it'll look a lot like the first writeup that I did...

Doom 03:07, Jan 13, 2005 (UTC)

discussing the meaning of Dark Wave

I think Dark Wave is not really gothic rock - sometimes it is a mixture from gothic rock and wave, maybe caused by the success of The Cure which are influencial band in the late 80ies. But Das Ich and also Goethes Erben are not really wave music, they are something completely different - Neue Deutsche Todeskunst, a different style. The belgian band The Breath of Life is a interesting mixture of gothic rock and guitar wave. Rabauz 18:05, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Okay, my stab was "a form of synthesizer based gothic rock". What would you suggest as an improvement, something that would get across the german meaning of darkwave very quickly? I'm afraid that the distinction between The Cure and, say, Joy Division is a little fine for my ears, but I guess I can accept the notion that The Cure is midway between gothic rock and new wave. (By the way: I take it that "wave" is a european shortening of the old brit/american term "new wave", tell me if that's wrong.) So what should the article say, a "form of synthesizer based rock music, something like gothic rock or new wave"? -- Doom 12:46, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

I've added some bits that clarify things a little. I'm surprised Attrition haven't been mentioned yet, as they are probably the main band associated with Darkwave as a genre rather than a general term. As you can see from the quote I've added (btw. I did the interview), they were somewhere between the early 80s scenes (Goff, synthpop) and industrial and it wasn't until the term Darkwave came about that there was something that included them. They played in Germany a lot, worked with Ludo Camberlin and released on Antler Records and have had a very close relation to Sam Rosenthal and his Projekt label. Darkwave may originally have been used as a generic term, but it's become a specific genre term for a kind of electronic Goth-influenced music (often adding in classical influences to creat Ethereal Darkwave). This is no different to Gothic itself, or even Heavy Metal. [[Donnacha 17:57, 21 May 2006 (UTC)]]

a problematic list

In beginning of this article, I was talking about what appears to be the earliest usage of "Darkwave" to describe some German bands. The bands that seem to be most commonly cited are the two that I listed as most commonly cited: Das Ich and Project Pitchfork. This does not mean that they're the *best*, nor does it mean that they're the *only*, just that they're commonly used to give some indication of what was at least origianlly meant by the term.

Since I wrote this, a list of band names has sprouted between those two names. I'm not familiar enough with them to say where they belong in the article, but I can tell they don't belong inbetween Das Ich and Project Pitchfork. If you really feel like they have to be in the main article, I suggest adding a list at the bottom "other darkwave bands" (I'm reluctant to do that because I hate lists like that in wikipedia... it's an invitation to mindless stamp collecting that doesn't really add much to the discussion of the concept):

• Deine Lakaien
• Clan of Xymox
• The Breath of Life
• The Crüxshadows
• The synthetic dream foundation

(One of these bands is from florida, another is from oklahoma, two of them don't have wikipedia entries, but appear to be metal bands of some sort, judging by a quick google. And while Clan of Xymox is a great band, it would seem a better example of gothic rock than darkwave -- I note that the german wikipedia article about darkwave name drops Xymox, but the babelfish translation -- see below -- reveals that they're calling it an "outlier", evidentally thrown in as an earliest possible example that sort of sounds like what they mean... though I'm afraid that it just makes me think that "darkwave" is and always was a euphemism for "gothic" by people who find the term gothic embarassing for some reason. I mean, Switchblade Symphony, from my neck of the woods, was appearing on gothic-industrial comps in the early 90s and none of us thought they were deserving of a new genre name... but perhaps I digress). -- Doom 12:46, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

Another view from DE: it is always complicated to reconstruct the development of styles and subcultures. But I don´t think dark wave is a euphemism, although there was a gothic influence to dark wave and there are close relations between "dark" music styles. New Wave around 1986 was actually mainstream pop and somehow the members of the New Wave subculture had to react. And they started by hearing darker new wave music like the Cocteau Twins but also other darker (and older) new wave/new romantic songs. Early projects as Deine Lakaien started around this time, of course with a gothic influence, but still doing typical 1980ies New Wave songwriting. I don't know much about the scene pre1986/1987 but I watched what was going from 1987. The term gothic was restricted to gothic rock at this time. I just remember a german CD review of the 1989 Kate Bush Album The_Sensual_World where the author tries to define the music as gothic pop. The expression "gothic" got more popular after the movie gothic (1986). The german Expression "Gotik" is actually very limited to the historical period of gothic architecture and art and does not apply to literature.Rabauz 10:42, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

@Doom: in germany Project Pitchfork were never called "dark wave".

in different magazines of the early 1990's you will find the term "electro(nic) wave".

german wikipedia article

For reference, here's the Babel Fish translation of the de.wikipedia.org article about darkwave:

In English: Dark Wave or also rare Gothic Wave, designates the musical Melange from Gothic and Wave starting from center of the 80's in Germany. As outriders of this style are considered among other things the Netherlands clan OF Xymox, which already 1983/84 strengthen Wave and Gothic elements united and on that 1986 published album "Medusa" perfected. In the same year the Debut appeared that volume your lakaien (1991 again-published) and the only album of the Calling DEAD talk Roses, whose volume members brought the projects Girls Under Glass and CAN cerium bar rack after nearly 1-jaehrigem existence into being. In contrast to the pure Gothic sound here the guitars take a less dominating place, sound partly quite poppig and/or are not used only at all. Further important Dark Wave of volume (selection): Diary OF Dreams, Kirlian Camera, Forthcoming Fire, Sopor Aeternus, Frozen Autumn, The Cruexshadows, Switchblade Symphony, ASP. See also new ones German death art (NDT) Members of the Dark Wave scene like already the proceeding new Wave scene called and/or call themselves Waver, although since center of the 1990er years the comprehensive term Gothics dominate might.

hope you don't mind.

I added/helped/changed alot of what was on the article. I kept your main paragraph though since it was indeed right. ;)

Not a top-level genre

Darkwave is arguably not a top-level electronic genre (in the same way that techno, trance and house are), I think it should be a subgenre of industrial music and gothic rock, or some combination. Compare "industrial music" vs "darkwave" "techno music" vs "darkwave", and "house music" vs "darkwave". --Lexor|Talk 00:31, Jan 3, 2005 (UTC)

In my opinion it is simply the successor of New Wave/New Romantic with a gothic or gothic rock influence. Rabauz 12:53, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Hello, I usually take into much consideration google results, but this time I have to disagree, I believe darkwave to be a genre by its own. Musical genres often spring from other musical genres and I think darkwave represents a more ethereal and ambiental aspect than goth music. --xDCDx 04:23, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

maybe Rabauz 11:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree that "Darkwave" isn't a terribly useful term (to me it's always seemed like just another piece of jargon that people like to tack on to club flyers because it sounds cool). But it does get used *just* often enough that every now and then I run into someone wondering what the hell it means. I think it would make sense to have an entry for "darkwave" even if it's just a re-direct to a goth-industrial page that explains darkwave in passing.

Doom 07:52, Jan 12, 2005 (UTC)

stylistic origins

I think it is wrong to say dark ambient is the origin of dark wave - IMO it is the other way round, because in the late 80ies and early nineties there was dark wave but no dark ambient. Dark Ambient was later on developed with influences from gothic, classical, dark wave and electronica. Rabauz 11:39, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

What is this supposed to mean? "Throbbing Gristle" didn't do "Dark Ambient"? and what does "Dark Ambient" have to do with DarkWave, the bands that people site as DarkWave typically have danceable beats, i.e. it isn't "ambient". - Doom 13:47, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)

dark ambient is an influence, nothing more. bands like lycia or soul whirling somewhere use typical dark ambient soundscapes.

first/second paragraphs

so there was a darkwave genre in the 80s, at exactly the same time as new wave, but no-one called it darkwave until the 90s? i don't like the way the edit made a few days ago has changed the first paragraph to sound like a description of the 'third definition'. and by "a femine male archtype" i'm assuming they mean "a feminine male archetype", but is that really a useful (or coherent) description? --MilkMiruku 18:54, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

german wikipedia - 2nd Babel Fish translation

» ...up to now 1988 oldest mention «

» I discovered Dark Wave now as term in a 1988's New Life-magazine [number 38 / page 10]. In a review for the electropop artist Invinsible Limits, which wants to have covered "the dark wave classical Love Tear Us Apart from Joy Division". «

1984

The first time I heard the term Darkwave was in 1984. A girl in my high school art class told me that I was wrong to label Bauhaus New Wave, and that the correct term was 'Darkwave'. Back then, we didn't use the term 'Goth' (sometimes 'Gothic' was used, but it was quite rare), and the term 'BatCave' had recently started to become popular; but generally, we just called everything New Wave or Punk. It was much less complicated. Ha ha.

ô.Ô... A term from Canada? We need evidence... magazines, flyers, promotional sheets etc. Scan your stuff, ladies. ;-)

My 2¢

To me darkwave was always just simply a combination of goth rock and elements of industrial, with some ethereal thrown in the mix. I know the etymology is important, but I'm just, as I said, throwing my 2¢ in. Khirad^talk 23:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

Psyche

87.122.37.156 seems to have a bit of an axe to grind (Seen by edits at Darkwave, Psyche). I think that the general definition of darkwave would seem to imply that Psyche qualifies (dark, electronic), and the timing is certainly correct.

OK, no prob. but the new stuff of psyche is very technoid. it sounds like future pop... --87.122.7.229 03:09, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Darrin classes himself and his music as synthpop - Soft Cell are clearly one of the major influences (I agree that "The Hiding Place" was pure futurepop, though. I haven't yet heard "The 11th Hour".) They are borderline darkwave, there is a lot of similarity between their early stuff and Attrition's early stuff, for example. Donnacha 13:49, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

"The Influence" is a typical darkwave album. It's synth pop too, but synth pop means "synthetic pop music", that's all. Depeche Mode were synthetic pop music, although their Black Celebration album is darkwave. --Menorrhea 15:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't comment on that album, I haven't got it yet. Donnacha 00:38, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Darkwave as musical Style

"Darkwave isn't a music style. it's a generic term. the music genre infobox is useless..."

I disagree with this, and the edit made by user 87.122.15.202. Darkwave is a genre of music. Some might use it as a somewhat generic term, but it most certainly has a specific meaning in general use. Regardless of such concerns, the new box is uglier, both visually and in code. I intend to revert the change, unless I hear some objections. --Eyrian 18:58, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

go for it :) --MilkMiruku 19:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Darkwave is a H Y P E R O N Y M... do you understand? This term embraced many styles of music like Goth rock or dark Synthpop. Synthpop isn't the same like Gothrock. Electrogoth isn't a subgenre of Darkwave... that's absolutely bullshit.

Maybe you should create a new infobox-template... the music-genre infobox is useless for hyperonyms/generic terms. --87.122.34.248 00:12, March 16 2006

there's two issues at hand here;

a) the problem that, as the article already notes and has been mentioned directly above, 'darkwave' has been used as both an umbrella term and specifically to describe a certain style of music that evolved from new wave. while the older more generic use of the term is valid, i feel that the styles it refers to are the main influences on the bands that the main later usage refers to, something which can be mentioned in the genrebox in the influences section. by all means, exactly what's entered on the genrebox for origins/influences/subgenres is up for debate, but i feel we should be able to come to a concensus on this.

b) the genrebox on the article really needs to use the genre infobox template as specified by Wikipedia:WikiProject Music genres, a point that i don't think there can be much movement on --MilkMiruku 00:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

But it's the wrong way to create an article on the foundations of this infobox. it makes an article wrong. an infobox should be adapted to an article... (not in reverse order).

Hypernym? No. I'd agree on the removal of electrogoth as a subgenre, but I think that darkwave most certainly does qualify as a genre. People can "embrace" a term all they like (words don't embrace people, people embrace words), but that doesn't necessarily affect the common usage. Looking at Gothic rock lists darkwave as a similar genre, Google searches tend to list Darkwave as a term similar and equal to Goth, EBM, etc. Certain "purists" might claim that a word means something, but it doesn't work that way.

The fact is, music genres can't be drawn in hard lines. I believe the preponderance of evidence indicates that Darkwave is a musical genre. --Eyrian 03:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should read the zines of the 80's and not stupid webzines or POV articles of the english wikipedia... The first mention was bauhaus, the second known mention was depeche mode (about 1986, Black Celebration), the third mention was joy division (1988)... i can't see a relationship between these acts. they're dark, that's all. Today, darkwave is a term used for acts like frozen autumn or deine lakaien (they're both pure electronic) and lycia or love spirals downwards (they're guitar acts). darkwave is the dark counterpart of New Wave and the survived part of the New wave era, nothing more. Can you see an infobox in the New wave article?

I see no mention of Darkwave in any of those places (Bauhaus, Depeche Mode, Joy Division), but I think that there is a similar sound. Your claim that Deine Lakaien is pure electronic is flat out false. Further, I am having trouble believing that you cannot see the strong similarities in style (if not precise method) between the four modern acts you mentioned.

To be frank, just because a word means something in a particular language/culture does not imply that it means the same thing in another.

And no, there is not an infobox at New Wave. Anymore. It was removed rather recently.

Please, tell me where you are getting your information. I am working from other wikipedia entries, and information that is available online. You claim that these are "POV" (a term that immediately loses meaning when talking about something that is inherently subjective) and false, yet I have only your assertion that this is the case. I would deeply appreciate some sources. --Eyrian 08:34, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

I see no mention of Darkwave in any of those places...

Now you can...

• New Life Soundmagazine - November 1988 (Coverpage)
• New Life Soundmagazine - November 1988 (Page 10)

Discussion still alive?

Hello, is there anyone still interested in discussing this article? I usually do not read anything related to music genres, becouse I'm new on Wikipedia, and I feel that I have to contribute on articles regarding bands and discographies. Nevertheless, I could improve this page, I can witness for example that the term was used since 1982/83, and that the word Gothic was almost never used those days. Also, a lot of bands need to be mentioned, I'll post a list here tomorrow.Dr. Who 13:47, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm still here. I do think the article has to be careful about the use of darkwave as a undefined description (similar to how Gothic was applied to Joy Division and Siouxsie and the Banshees) before it became a genre. Attrition and Clan of Xymox are the basis of the genre of electronic Gothic music.

If you have more of an inside interest to the article, absolutely give us your 2 cents. The article can only be improved by those who've been there. It would really help if you had verifiable sources we can gleen from of course, but i'm sure we'll take anything we can get.--Adrift* 02:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The only thing we know is that darkwave is connected to the manysided wave music (and postpunk?) of the late 70s and the 80s. It's definitely not a modern music style (some people think, darkwave is a modern variant of trance or ambient - but that's wrong). Maybe anyone can translate some parts of the extended german article. There seem to be a lot of more informations about this. --Menorrhea 10:37, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Darkwave has been used as the name of a style for years. I interviewed Martin Bowes a few years ago and he said "At first, there wasn't the same sort of scene and we were in more of an 'industrial' thing. There was nothing like the clubs you get now, it was actually quite difficult to play anywhere that would appreciate you. It's a lot easier now, it's not just Goth, it's a mix - Darkwave or whatever. That's gotten stronger, so that has helped, but really, we were there before it was built." [[1]]. And there's an old alt.gothic discussion featuring Bat from Xorcist and Mick Mercer, author of numerous books on the Goth and related scenes [[2]] Donnacha 15:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Most important are the mentions and the interviews of the 80s and the 90s. In the last decade there was a great misuse of the term darkwave.

In the late 80s/early 90s the band Das Ich was one of the founders of the Neue Deutsche Todeskunst, the last genre within the dark wave movement. Das Ich used elements of goth, post-industrial and electrowave. A lot of bands of the NDT was completely electronic or used neoclassical elements. But no one of these NDT bands was a founder of darkwave, because darkwave is definitely a term from the 80s. Bands like Project Pitchfork were called electrowave until the middle of the 90s (not long after Pitchfork changed their music style with "alpha omega"). I can scan a lot of interviews. These interviews are as old as the hills.

In many countries there were different movements. Specially the English goth movement wasn't really identical to the German movement, because the German movement was a darkwave movement. The members of the German movement weren't called goths in the 80s or early 90s, but they were called waver or grufties. And germany has really the most mentions of the term "dark wave" (including compilations such as The Myths Of Avalon). Strange, but i don't know why...

In England, everything was called goth or new wave. I don't think that british people used the term darkwave. In France everything was called coldwave or batcave. In the US, everything was called goth or industrial. In Germany everything was called new wave, dark wave or simply wave (including goth music. Goth rock bands such as Love Like Blood or Swans Of Avon called their music "dark wave").

In my opinion darkwave is an umbrella term from central Europe. It's not really a music style. A lot of bands mixed the different dark wave genres (e.g. goth with synth pop or goth with ethereal etc.). But that's more a crossover thing. Specially the 90s were a decade of crossover. Darkwave isn't a musicologically homogeneous style. --87.122.28.187 20:05, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

This is complete tosh. Dark wave may have been used in the 80s, but darkwave as a genre came about in the late '80s/early '90s. I can't stress this enough - it has been used as a genre terms for over 10 years. You can complain about it being "misused" - go join the old school industrial "it ended in '82", old school EBM "futurepop is dance music" elitists in the past - and leave people who actually know about how terms are currently used to deal with this. I'm a journalist, I used to review releases from around the world and I know that darkwave has been used and continues to be used broadly and fairly specifically. It's electronic Goth music or it's ethereal. Donnacha 00:23, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

darkwave is not a musicstyle. and darkwave isn't inevitably electronic music. ethereal is a complete other thing with walls of guitarsounds and noise elements. where is the difference between dark wave and darkwave? thats absolutely bullshit. the same thing like cold wave and coldwave or electro wave and electrowave, future pop and futurepop. In germany you'll find the term "dark wave", mainly used in the early 90s. Forget the last 10 years, the heyday of darkwave was between 1979 and 1994.

Ethereal darkwave is generally seen as a sub-genre of darkwave because many of the bands tend to do both. Specific examples are Attrition and Die Form as those who pioneered darkwave as a style and bands like The Machine in the Garden. Ethereal invariably has an electronic synthesizer base, over which guitars may be added. Without the electronic elements, it's more likely shoegazer (dreampop in the US). Donnacha 23:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

today people call Funker Vogt or VNV Nation and other dance shit "darkwave". that's completely stupid. there's no connection to the wave movement. forget the stupid webmagazines. The writer are little kiddies without a historical background knowledge. they use for any shit terms like gothic or EBM. --87.122.6.44 01:11, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, 87.122.6.44. My edits below represent the point of view of a number of people along the 1980s, but I do not believe that from a strictly musical point of view Darwave is a music genre fully different from post punk or new wave, whatever you call them. Musicians usually dislike every genre definition. It reminds me the stuff about IDM, Chillout and Electronica, I mean that such words were used with a metaphoric purpose, someone didn't understand that, and believed that some new genres were born: that's ridicolous.Dr. Who 01:24, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That is how virtually all genres were born. Genre names are generally created by PR people or journalists - artists have little or nothing to do with it. Get over it. Donnacha 11:36, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

In some cases nevertheless such terms may last a very short time, there are so many that I've heard in last 25 years that now are forgotten. I dislike most of these nonsense words, anyway I'm sure that there are a few clever journalists that will help Wikipedia some day (please, your sentence get over it sounds a bit too personal, I'm not sure I can understand). Dr. Who 12:22, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, I am a journalist who spent years reviewing this kind of stuff. Mainly between 1996 and 2002. The term was commonly used all through that time in press releases, biogs, bands' descriptions, etc.Donnacha 23:54, 20 August 2006 (UTC

Oh, and anyone who thinks Funker Vogt or VNV Nation are "dance" music has no idea what dance music is. Both bands are heavily EBM and darkwave influenced and regarded as far too dark by most dance fans. Donnacha 23:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, so what are you willing to do with this article? I am amused to see that up to two days ago this discussion was almost dead. Dr. Who 00:13, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've already added bits to the article - it currently represents the facts fairly well, I don't know what people want changed other than those who seem to want to remove the fact that it's the name of a style rather than an old descriptive term. Donnacha 13:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Funker Vogt and VNV Nation use TECHNO sounds...techno and trance. there is no darkwave sound... maybe a little influence of EBM, nothing more. Go and wash your ears, Donnachadelong. --87.122.32.88 10:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Ronan's vocal style has more in common with darkwave than with EBM or any form of dance music. The darker parts of VNV's synth sounds have elements of darkwave. VNV also include ambient and IDM. Funker Vogt I'm less familiar with, but they're not a "dance" band. As someone who listens to quite a bit of darkwave and technno, I'm fully aware of the similarities with BOTH. To quote Ronan himself: "I think 'futureperfect' showed roots in [the '80s Front 242/Nitzer Ebb] scene and it showed roots in very emotive music, bringing together elements of dance music, being also an underground electronic album on a wider scale of things. It had an appreciation on a lot of different dimensions. And a lot of people picked up on that, there were magazines reviewing us that had no connection with us. It's not commercial music, 'cos no commercial radio station would even touch us. It is from the scene, but I think we've broken a barrier." [[3]] Donnacha 13:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I think 'futureperfect' showed roots in [the '80s Front 242/Nitzer Ebb] scene. Futureperfect is a pc software album. A software album shows the 80s roots? *lol* --Menorrhea 16:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You sound like those metal fans who bitched about keyboards and drum machines in the 80s there. What difference does it make what instruments were used to make the album? VNV were one of the 3 bands who created the futurepop sound, so there's no way they can be classed with the cookie cutter bands who followed. Futurepop clearly contained a major EBM influence - granted it was less pronounced on 'futureperfect', 'Harmonizer' and 'United States of Mind', which were all the high water mark of mainstream dance music for the big 3, but it was still there. Donnacha 23:12, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

For a connection to a 80s EBM feeling the instruments of the 80s are most important. You can not reproduce EBM with instuments like Roland TB 303 or an ugly PC software. EBM use Korg MS-20, Oberheim or Yamaha DX7 sounds - not Fruity Loops or Re-birth crap. The equipment is a main characteristic of EBM. --Menorrhea 00:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

This discussion is alive and kicking

Dark wave (also simply Dark) was a music scene within the 1980s post-punk and new wave; if regarded as a style in itself, dark wave is a derivative form of New Wave (and postpunk) whose artists' "look" and lyrics featured a predominant influence of a sort of existentialism. Those artists' music was postpunk strongly influenced by electronic and experimental music of 1970s (mostly the German artists). The scene was born in late 1970s-early 1980s, and lasted along the 1980s, fading slowly in late 1980s-early 1990s. After those days the New Wave sound died, keyboards, "flangered" guitars and electronic pads were left away. Each band/artist followed a different style and a different path: some become "gothic rock", some become technopop, synthpop and later house techno, some turned to experimentalism and (pure) electronic and ambient music; a lot of bands (most of them, I guess) simply disbanded and "died". Here is a short list, I am sure it is not complete, sorry for forgetting some notable artists. by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

List of Darkwave artists and bands

• Bauhaus (Tones on Tail were the only "Dark wave" Bauhaus spin-off)
• Cocteau Twins (some works)
• The Cult (some works)
• The Cure (some works)
• Danse Society (some works)
• Dead Can Dance
• Fad Gadget (some works)
• Fields of the Nephilim
• Joy Division
• New Order - only a few earlier works were "Dark", later they pioneered house and techno
• Sad Lovers and Giants
• Siouxsie and The Banshees
• Sisters of Mercy
• The Sound
• Theatre of Hate
• Tuxedomoon (some works)
• Virgin Prunes

by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Nonsense. Darkwave as a style began with Attrition and Clan of Xymox, though wasn't given that name until the late 80s/early 90s. All the above are either straightforward punk/new wave (The Cure, the Banshees, Virgin Prunes, Joy Division), Gothic Rock (Bauhaus, Fields of the Nephilim, early The Cult, Sisters of Mercy, Danse Society), shoegazer (Cocteau Twins, Dead Can Dance) or somewhere in between. Donnacha 13:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Any useful sources? I can see one source only... a review of 1988 from a magazine called "new life soundmagazine". IMO there is no musical style called "darkwave", because everyone use this term for completely different styles of music which are connected to the new wave movement. But maybe your opinion is a regional point of view?

BTW: No one called Cocteau Twins or Dead Can Dance as "shoegazer". Shoegazer is a term created in the 90s by a band called Swervedriver. --Menorrhea 15:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Rubbish, the term shoegazer was in common use by the end of the 80s for bands like My Bloody Valentine and Lush and grew into the 90s for Ride and Red House Painters and the likes. I heard the term long before I heard Swervedriver. It now tends to be used for all the early 4AD acts, including DCD and Cocteaus (perhaps somewhat incorrectly). Try reading the Wikipedia entry [[4]] Donnacha 23:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

My acquaintances include people that work in the music industry since late 1970s, such as DJs, tour-gigs managers, dozens of minor and indipendent musicians, a classic musician whose associated label has also released a CD by a very notable Ambient music pioneer (the real , pure ambient music "school" of Brian Eno), and even some guys that work for press (also music press) in Italy and Germany, not mentioning a number of listeners from UK, Greece and the Balcans, South America, the USA and Australia. So please do not bother me, I don't come here to post nonsense. Feel free to add Attrition and Clan of Xymox to the above list. The terms Dark (as a style or subgenre of New Wave) and Darkwave are "on the wave" and in my hears since 1983, but they could have been coined before. With regard to Virgin Prunes, for example, in 1985 I listened to a very experimental work (on a limited edition 10" vynile) featuring the voice of a ill baby making strange noises for a whole side of the LP, so I wouldn't call them "new wave", such sonic experimentalism is common in the Dark scene. The list of facts that I could add is very long, I'm very sorry that I do not have enough time to add more info here (well, the truth is that I have to earn my money somewhere else). Cheers and sincere hugs to all. Good work. Dr. Who 15:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There are over two million hits on google for darkwave, most of them using darkwave as a top-level genre alongside Goth and often industrial. The article is currently correct, it started out as a general term and developed into a specific style. Siouxsie and the Banshees and The Cure were often described as "Gothic", but that doesn't make them part of the Goth Rock scene as that came about later. I haven't once disagreed that the term may have been used in the 80s for the above bands, but it wasn't a genre at the time. Attrition and Clan of Xymox are the origin of the style. It's pointless to list bands that were called Dark Wave in one place, Gothic in another and punk in yet another. Only the bands that are part of the darkwave scene should be listed. Donnacha 22:58, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I found an interesting interview of the french coldwave band Excès Nocturne from 1989. It's from a french magazine called „Illusions Perdues“. Excès Nocturne describe their music as "new wave noire" (dark new wave). --Menorrhea 22:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This link is spam, it takes to an image not to an interview. Can you fix it, or are you just jokin?Dr. Who 23:14, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

This is the interview! Its the scan of the magazine from 1989. A real source, not POV  ;-) --Menorrhea 23:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems that the link is working now. Anyway, Bauhaus and Joy Division are the fathers of Dark, regardless the lies that someone wants to post here just to waste my time.Dr. Who 00:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Bauhaus are the fathers of Goth, Joy Division are one of the seminal post-punk band. This is what they're known as in England, their home country. "Dark" is nothing more than a adjective to be applied to any and every band the way you're using it, particularly as a contraction of dark new wave. For the upteenth time, just as it says in the article, darkwave went from being a broad term to a specific style name as the specific style developed. Donnacha 00:37, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Sonic features

Vocals: often had a disctinctive "metallic" sound, and rejected common ways to sing "easy" melodies. Iggy Pop and Lou Reed may be regarded as the main influence
Guitars: distortion, long reverb, echo (high number of short repetitions) and flanger; solos were very minimalist
Bass guitar: chorus/flanger
Keyboards: soundscapes, featured an influence from Brian Eno and 1970s German electronic music, rejecting almost totally the lessons of British progressive rock
Drums: the style of Neu! drummer Klaus Dinger was still the main influence, electronic pads were often used and the rhythm was sometimes suitable for dancing.
by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Fashion

Please note that dressing like Robert Smith become somewhat fashioned (for some groups of people) in mid and late 1980s (depending on the country). Anyway, many musicians that dressed in black and had a post-punk look were not Darkwavers: Gary Numan and Ultravox were not Dark, despite being dressed in black along 1983/84, U2 and Brian Eno dressed in black during the recording sessions of The Unforgettable Fire album, as showed in a relevant video, of course they had nothing to do with the Dark scene.by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Please explain how Gary Numan/Ultravox were not "Dark", while Fad Gadget was. Donnacha 13:43, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Musicology

Dark may be regarded as a subgenre of Goth rock, crossed with a strong "New Wave influence". Actually more than a subgenre or a style in and for itself, Darkwave is just a mood within postpunk, and also a music scene if referred to those bands of early 1980s. Since early 1990s the term Gothic rock has been used to encompass most of Darkwave music and related works/artists. Notably, Peter Murphy solo career is Gothic rock, but only few of his songs are Darkwave. The Cult become a hard rock band after 1986, and it is arguable whether they can be referred to as Gothic. In my opinion the term Gothic rock appeared only recently, I have never heard "Goth" along the early-mid 1980s, but I could be wrong. By the by, I had the chance (20/22 years ago) to see Siouxsie and The Banshees, The Sound, Ultravox and The Cult in live gigs in my "hometown"; though I am no longer a Darkwave listener, I still remember and regard those shows as simply great and wonderful.by Dr. Who 23:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Any sources? Scans of ancient music magazines? Event flyers? Books or other references? The problem is that there are bands in the footsteps of the early darkwave bands. They use the same instruments, the same sounds etc. Especially the french coldwave movement based on the music of Joy Division and The Cure. And at the end of the 80s The Cure released the album "disintegration", a post-new-wave album. It's definitely darkwave. The Sisters Of Mercy released "Floodland" (1987), Depeche Mode released Black Celebration (1986). So after the fading of the new wave movement darkwave definitely survived, became an underground thing and received an impetus in the early 90s. That's a fact. Now darkwave is a dying genre, that's true. But it dies since the end of the 90s. The most bands in the dark scene of today mainly use metal or techno/dance/trance sounds of the 90s... And this kills the last fragments of the darkwave movement. --Menorrhea 00:13, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

While I agree with you with regard to Cure, Depeche Mode and Sister of Mercy, please note that I was referring to Darkwave as a full scene, it is obvious that rock genres now can't die, becouse today everybody can take a computer and record a CD. What are you questioning? What are you asking to me? Dr. Who 00:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

As usual, the electronic dance music fanatics aged about 20 with no serious musical knowledge and background, are about to steal even the term Darkwave? That's really too bad. They should really be punished. None of my generation would have ever dared to steal the term blues or jazz for his/her own maniacal selfish success. Cheers, --Dr. Who 16:07, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The phrase "gothic rock" is generally used over "goth" as a term of disambiguation (particularly here on Wikipedia). The word "goth" can mean a lot of things, but say "Gothic rock" and people know you're talking about a style of music. But most people (including myself) just say "goth" when referring to the genre. WesleyDodds 02:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I must admit that "recent" in my way of speaking often means "from 1990s onward", sorry if that may appear confusing to some. I am aware that Goth and Goth rock are terms used in UK since early 1990s (and maybe in USA, too?), but only later they appeared (if that happened) in the rest of Europe.--Dr. Who 21:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The terms Goth and Goth Rock date back to 1983 in the UK [[5]]. Death Rock tended to be the term used in the US around the same time.

In related business, about a year ago the NME published a collection of articles on goth dating from the late 70s to the early 90s. When it comes to bands like Bauhaus, the Cure, and the Sisters of Mercy, "goth" has preference over "darkwave". Part of it has to do with the name darkwave implying there's some sort of major connection to New Wave, when there isn't. WesleyDodds

Maybe we should use both terms for the music of the early darkwave/goth bands. I don't see any problem. But today, goth is another thing. Especially in Germany, when you say you like "goth", people think you like Nightwish, Subway to Sally, In Extremo, L'âme Immortelle, Blutengel, Marilyn Manson and other shit. When you say you like "gothic rock", people think you like HIM, 69 Eyes or Evanescence etc. Today the German movement is a cybergoth movement or a "metal-goth" movement without a connection to the wave music. In my opinion the new generation has forgotten that the goth movement was a postpunk/darkwave movement.

The main difference I can see between goth and darkwave is that goth is a term which is commonly used to describe every kind of dark or spooky music, including modern techno-/dance-/trance-/triphop-/metal-influenced music. On the other hand, darkwave is limited in time (and sound & equipment). It's a musical epoch like new wave. --Menorrhea 08:57, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually what I see is that the terminology used in different countries and regions is different. Also, terms are often misapplied; lots of people have called Marilyn Manson goth, but then again most people have never heard Bauhaus. Hell, I never heard "real" goth until I started working at a college radio station.

I think it's more important that the darkwave of the 90's is defined and its seminal acts detailed in this article rather than getting wrapped up in the debate of whether or not certain band from the 80s is darkwave or not. Personally I reject darkwave as genre term when referring to 80s bands such as Joy Division, The Cure, Cocteau Twins, Depeche Mode, and so forth because there are other, more accurate, specific, and consistently-used-in-print genre terms to describe them. For example, those four bands have been categorized in Anglo/American music terminology as post-punk, goth, dream pop, and synthpop, respectively. WesleyDodds 10:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, but when there are different POVs in different regions - how do you define the darkwave music of the 90s? In Germany and other countries the bands had a strong connection to the old bands of the 80s. La Floa Maldita, Chandeen, The Frozen Autumn, Faith & The Muse, The Garden Of Delight, Pink Turns Blue, Love Spirals Downwards, Silke Bischoff, and many more - all of these bands were categorized as darkwave bands and all of these bands sounded like 80s music groups. There was not a great cut between 80s and 90s. They simply continued the sound of the 80s until the middle of the 90s without an influence of modern styles like techno. --Menorrhea 11:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

For the upteenth time, darkwave as a genre was largely defined by Attrition and Clan of Xymox, two '80s bands. Mick Mercer describes darkwave as the term bands who were "too cool for Goth" used, but the main characteristics are either: Gothic electronica or ethereal. Das Ich had the Gothic electronica thing going, pretty much every Projekt act had the ethereal thing. It's easier to define than Goth, which causes so many arguments that WiG? (What is Goth?) is a Usenet in-joke, a discussion likely to go on and on and never reach an end. Donnacha 23:06, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Danse Society

I created the article Danse Society. Everybody is welcome to check and expand it.--Dr. Who 00:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

perhaps they will reunite after realizing that a Google search hits over 70,000 entries and that even Wikipedia has a page :). Dr. Who 00:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)