Talk:Ulster Scots people

Samuel Neilson

I have edited Samuel Neilson, a Scots-Irish contemporary of Thompson and a founding father of the United Irishmen, remarked just prior to the Act of Union, "I see a union is determined on between Great Britain and Ireland. I am glad of it." Neilson accepted the Act of Union without shedding his sense of Irishness. He, like many other members of the Society of United Irishmen, became Irish Unionists because they saw in the Union an end to the corrupt Ascendancy-based Dublin Government and a chance for their Catholic brothers to achieve Catholic Emancipation, which the Anglican Parliament in Dublin had resisted for decades

for the following reasons;

--- Neilson was a prisoner of the British from 1798-1802 when he was released. He emigrated to the US upon release and died there in 1803 so he can by no stretch of the imagination be said to have become an "Irish Unionist".

---What proof is there that many United Irishmen became Unionists, some perhaps but "many"? To survive an accomodation was made such as at the Treaty of Kilmainham but this could hardly be regarded as an embrace of Union with the British Crown. Don't forget Protestant rebels such as Robert Emment, Thomas Russell, James Hope, all United Irishmen, all republicans until the day they died like many of theit co-religionists.

Some of the information in this article needs to be moved to Scots-Irish Americans. -- Fingers-of-Pyrex 23:20, 2005 May 13 (UTC)

Aughavey 7 July 2005 16:12 (UTC) Well for starters the United Irishmen were largely founded by Presbyterians. Look at the demographic of Irish / Ulster Presbyterians today and they are nearly all Unionists. They rebelled in 1798 because the penal laws were very hard on Presbyterians banning them from preaching, holding official office, conducting marriages etc. Perhaps I should have said many Presbyterian United Irishmen became Unionists. Francis Joy founded the Belfast Newsletter in 1737, a relative of United Irishman Henry Joy McCracken. The Belfast Newsletter is now a staunchly Unionist newspaper. The United Irishmen had some difficulties because whilst it was founded on the principles of true Republicanism it eventually merged with the Catholic "Defenders" group whose oath swore to "quell the nation of heresy", ie Protestantism.

--Damnbutter 15:29, 31 January 2006 (UTC) I think that the real difficulties the United Irish had were to do with the brutal campaign of suppression directed against it's supporters of all faiths rather than any internal religous strain beteen the members, there is little or no proof of this despite what Government propoganda of the time would have people believe. There is no shortage of examples of Protestants who fought on as republicans post 1801. Can you give more than the one contested example of United Irish of any religion who became genuine loyalists?[reply]

I make the point as, you are using one unsubstantiated quote to argue that most Presbyterian republicans became loyalist because of union with the British crown-this makes no sense. There examples of some Presbyterian republican influences surviving until at least the early 20th century. Presbyterians were no longer excluded from the corridors of power following Act of union, as Catholics were and it was this deliberatly sectarian "divide and rule" policy which successfully reconciled Presbyterians to British rule - not any sudden mass conversion of identity from Irish to British - this came gradually.

Ulster-Scots same as Anglo-Irish?

I somehow to go the Ulster-Scots in Canada listings off of a link from a British Columbia politician (can't remember who - A.C. Elliott maybe - 4th Premier of British Columbia?). There are a number of distinguished gentlemen in the history of the province who are of what was called "Anglo-Irish"; one was Chartres Brew, who was the first Chief Constable of the Colony and the founder of the British Columbia Provincial Police; he was in the Royal Irish Constabulary prior to being assigned to BC; I gather that's not very likely a Catholic sort of Irish position; but it could be he was CoE rather than Presbyterian? I don't know at this point and will have to read up some before writing his biography for wikipedia. But when I do, does he qualify as Ulster-Scots or is there an Anglo-Irish designation that's different?Skookum1 05:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

These hyphenated definitions can be confusing, but I believe that they are not the same thing. It is my understanding that Anglo-Irish would be the (mainly protestant) community in The Pale, and in Ireland in general, who emigrated from England, from around the reign of Henry VIII of England (who made himself also King of Ireland) until Irish independence. Many descendants of these people would have subsequently become notable people in the colonies and US.

Compare with the term Anglo-Scot, which confusingly denotes a person of Scottish origin who has settled in England (should it not logically be something like Scoto-Anglo?). I do not know what a person originating in England and settled in Scotland would be: nowadays they are sometimes simply referred to as New Scots, but that includes all new Scots, not just ones from england, eg: Italian-Scots, Polish-Scots, Asian-Scots, Chinese-Scots; all are New Scots.

Ulster-Scots are (mainly protestant) people of Scottish origin who settled in the northern bit of Ireland over hundreds of years.

These hyphenations are often illogical.--Mais oui! 09:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well how come both the culture and "language" are well documented in the 18th and 19th centuries? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.135.254.39 (talk • contribs) .

The Anglo-Irish were an eighteenth and nineteenth century phenomenon. The community in the Pale was entirely different being as it was from the original Norman invasion of Ireland. The nearest this latter community got to an "Anglo" definition was from the 1580s, when it began to describe itself as the Old English community. I hope this clarifies things somewhat. 193.1.172.138 23:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Skookum1:"he was in the Royal Irish Constabulary prior to being assigned to BC; I gather that's not very likely a Catholic sort of Irish position;"

On the contrary, the Royal Irish Constabulary had, I believe, a substantial number of Roman Catholics in it. I remember looking at the records in the Public Records Office of Northern Ireland for the RIC police station in Carrickfergus circa early 1900s, and noting that seemingly a majority of RIC members there were marked as being Catholic.. in a town which has a huge Protestant majority.

Ulster Scots

A lot of people seem to think that Ulster Scots is a made up culture to make up for unionists lack of history. Is this true?

I think that these people that you speak of, who think that we Ulster Scots don't really exist are ignorant and verging on bigotry. I'm sure that when people say that my culture doesn't exist they are pushing some Irish Nationalist agenda.

- Batratcathat

A Nation?

Might it be more apt and helpful to describe groups like the Copts and the Ulster-Scots as national, ethnic, sub-cultural, communal or sectarian groups within their respective societies? Which is more precise and neutral? //Big Adamsky 19:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Culture? Language?

Ulster Scots is not a true culture or language. It was invented by politicians during anglo-irish agreements. Ulster-Scots is a dialect, or ignorance of the English language in it's pure form. This should not be encouraged in schools as children need to be literate! Many of the N.Ireland population are marginalised by its use.

This makes me angry at the ignorance and intollerance of the nationalist movement in Ireland who want to see everything visably British or Scottish removed and Ireland somehow become a homogenous nation of gaelic speaking celts. Ulster Scots as a language decends from Scots which was used as the official language of Scotland before the act of union with England so to say Scots is not a language is factually incorrect and to have such hatrid of a culture which may or may not be perceived as Protestant is akin to racism.

"the semi-official flag for Northern Ireland"

Paragraph one notes "Ulster-Scots generally eschew being labeled "Celtic" but often identify themselves with England instead, and this is reflected in the design of the semi-official flag for Northern Ireland, which is based on the Cross of Saint George. " - can somebody provide a link to this "semi-official flag for Northern Ireland" ?

The phrasing used in the text seems rather vague and useless, can somebody clarify this section? I am assuming it's disguising some sensitive politics?(MarkG)

I think that this needs to be changed in favour of more explanation, or being dropped. Lowland Scots are of the same non-Celtic linguistic heritage as Northumbrians, another group listed as providing heritage to Ulster-Scots. Enzedbrit 20:50, 25 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Someone order a flag! There is a different flag for the 9-county province of Ulster but that is rarely recognised by Ulster-Scots.Afn 17:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose your talking about the Flag of Ulster. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 04:29, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

no idea! I have no idea what a "semi-official flag" is... I am guessing there is an "official flag", many "unofficial flags" and the original author of Paragraph 1 knows of a "semi-official flag" as well :-) (MarkG)

american presidents part belongs on Scots-Irish Americans page

how do you cut and paste on wikipedia? Mayumashu 03:01, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

actually, i see its already there. will edit it out of this page then Mayumashu 03:03, 27 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What, exactly, is the point of the flags?

What is the point of the flags?

It is mentioned in the article that thousands of Scots fled Scotland during a famine in the 1690's. Can someone please provide more information on this. It is the first time I have heard about this and it seams if it is true it has been somewhat airbrushed from my knowledge of the History of Ireland.

Re the famine, the Scottish borders were hit by a terrible famine in th 1690s, I'm not sure ofthe causes, buti t was certainly a big killer and caused the biggest single migration of Scots to Ulster, bigger in fact than the organised plantations. It was only after this influx that Presbyterians became the majority in Ulster. The interesting thing is that a lot of Scots saw Ulster as temporary staging post and many ofthem continued on to America in the early 18th century. I believe this phenomenon is now called "chain migration". I'll post some sources if you're interested.

Jdorney 10:46, 8 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Non-Catholic?

I notice that this article now contains a lot of references to, and highlights specifically the relgious make-up of this group of peoples. Specifically it suggests that the Ulster-Scots are "non-Catholic". This could be considered incorrect, as many of them were actually catholic from a particular definition of the word (ie: 'universal'; 'Christian'): "Non-Roman Catholic" would be more correct/precise.

However, many Ulster-Scots were indeed Roman Catholic, though they were small in number comparitively speaking.

If nobody has any objections, I will copyedit this article to reflect that fact. --Mal 16:47, 25 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]