Talk:Pluto

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Archive 1: 2003–2005 Archive 2: 2005–Aug 2006

At the moment this may seem trivial

But isn't there another symbol for pluto that resesmbles those used for mercury and venus? Is it used anymore? Shouldn't we resprent both symbols at the top of the page? Whatcanuexpect 18:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

See the "symbols" section below - there's one common astronomical one, one astrological one, and at least one long-abandoned one that looks like neither. Shimgray | talk | 18:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Pluto vote 'hijacked' in revolt

See this BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/5283956.stm

It seems to me that the issue of Pluto's status remains controversial. Aprogressivist 13:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

YAY! Glad to see this decision is being fought! :) Shador5529 14:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Not a Planet Anymore!

Pluto STILL is a planet. It is a type of planet. Just like a HUMAN is a type of mammal. That doesn't mean humans aren't mammals. A dwarf planet is a TYPE of planet. So to say that Pluto isn't a planet is simply WRONG.

And yet the IAU definition of "planet" SPECIFICALLY excludes Pluto. Mammals, however, still clearly includes humans. That is the difference. Aprogressivist 13:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Discuss. I'm sad... I liked Pluto, and was hoping 2003UB313 would get a cool name :(.PhoenixSeraph 13:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

There's some kind of problem with the tags changes made to note that it's not a planet. Can't fix at the moment but if someone has time it's in the first reference tag. Tom K. 13:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Won't someone think of the effect this will have on Sailor Moon?!?!?!?! xD 203.59.184.144 14:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

They did; see the changed entry for Sailor Pluto Lothar76 22:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Must suck to be pluto right now... should the Pluto article be nominated for deletion? No longer notable... Hejog 14:32, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary. It's so notable that they had to invent a new class of solar system objects (Dwarf planets) to account for Pluto! Bluap 14:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The controversy and reclassification of Pluto's status gives us MORE to talk about, not LESS; hence it fully deserves this article. Aprogressivist 14:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Why delete it? Varuna and Ixion are comparatively insignificant, yet their articles are chock-full of stuff.PhoenixSeraph 15:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Hejog was joking... --Ckatz^chat_spy 16:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Seriously, just call Uranus Pluto and the problem is solved. I'm totally not joking dude. --Aelffin 16:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Everyone's still gonna call it a planet. It's like the SkyDome]... no one's gonna call it the Rogers Centre (doesn't that company have its name plastered on enough stuff?)

BNLfan53 22:15, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm devastated by this news. Seriously it's like hearing that the month of February is no longer a month, or that Friday no longer exists! --Alex ^{talk here} 22:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I wouldn't mind so much if Mondays no longer existed... -- Arwel (talk) 23:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I know what you mean --Alex ^{talk here} 13:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You are wrong pluto is not a planet according to resolution 5b. Is said that planets would be called classical planets. it was turned down. They were stating that they were not going to have 2 groups of planets, just planets and dwarf planets. its like pools and oceans. they are both made of water, so they are similar, but they are not 2 types of the same thing

Isn't it politically incorrect to call it "dwarf" planets? Shouldn't they be called diameter challenged planets instead? 129.78.208.4 05:52, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

No dwarf is a proper term for little people or things. Although in a rare double-whammy move maybe they'll declare that as dwarf planets are not planets dwarf people no longer count as people:)(I'm 3 foot 5 so I can get away with that)--T. Anthony 07:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Is Pluto a Planet?

I found this article http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/09/1047144868646.html if anyone wants to add information from it please do. there are many more articles like this one.

This article is over three years old; it seems less relevant in the light of the decision made today. Aprogressivist 14:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Important to note that only 300 of the 2,500 members present even voted. Does a minority voice really matter? I think the majority of astronomers the 2,200 that had accepted pluto as a planet simply ignored the ranting of a small minority that does not really matter.

And only 122 million out of 288 million people in the US voted in the presidential election. What's your point? You've gotta vote to get your voice heard.--Bobblehead 20:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The President of the United States elected by these means is without a doubt the President of the United States. But who has the authority to define whether something is a planet or not? It´s just like in Manderlay, where the people chose to vote to decide what time was it. A.Z. 22:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC) 22:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Pluto is no longer considered a planet.

I'd use the following definition for planets:

Any object that has cleared out it's orbit of objects larger than any of its moons. Moon is defined (?) as any object orbiting another object where the center of gravity of the binary system is within the volume of the more massive body. This would disqualify Pluto as the COG is outside its surface, and is actually a binary system.

Another definition could be, any object orbiting the Sun that is larger (more massive?) than the largest moon of any other planet. Of course, this might eliminate Mercury and Pluto-Charon.

Using mass as a descriminator, we'd have 8 planets- Pluto being eliminated. See List of solar system objects by mass

Using size as a descriminator, we'd have 7 planets- both Mercury and Pluto being eliminated. See List of solar system objects by radius.

thoughts? —Taka2007 14:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

These so called experts at the IAU

Now I might not be an "astronomer" or have "credentials", but I say those big-wigs down at the IAU are too square for their own good :-). They let everyone get excited about the 3 new planets and the dozens of potential ones that could follow. I think it should have been put to public vote - and we admit one new planet each year American Idol style, complete with Simon Cowell's abuse to planets who have irregular orbits. Orchid Righteous 18:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

They could call it "The Planet X Factor". No, but seriously, the original idea that new planets could be discovered was a much better concept. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 22:05, 24 August 20

Here's my two cent's. Questions like "how big are Pluto" and "What is it's compostion" are scientfic questions. However the question "is Pluto a planet" is not a scientfic question, it's a question of lingustic convention. The question "is Pluto a planet by X formal definition" is a scientfic question though.

All I have to say is miss planet-status Pluto TravKoolBreeze 06:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

How could astronomers not have known this for more than 75 years? I dont get it.

If you read the article, all will be revealed, my friend. The Singing Badger 15:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Hate to be the Eggheads who demoted Pluto

As a minister, I firmly believe when the Bible says in Genesis "God created the heavens and the earth". I would hate to be the atronomers when their Judgement comes and God asks them why they, puny humans, demoted HIS planet!!!!

What about the guy who promoted his rock in 1930? Seriously, an astronomer declared it one, astronomers today can decide they were wrong before. Interesting question: Were there tons of complaints when Pluto was originally added? Plumbob78 00:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The solar system is the way it is. I don't understand why anyone bothers to get so upset about what things are called. Nothing of any importance has actually changed!

Pluto: American planet, European Kuiper belt object?

Sorry, but in the light of recent discoveries it appears more than obvious that Pluto is nothing but a (huge) object belonging to the Kuiper belt. Its status as a planet, therefore, has to be considered a whimsical anachronism, and it's rather funny to read through the (more or less) scientific debate on both sides of the Atlantic. In the 1930s, Pluto's classification as a planet was based on insufficient knowledge about the outer Solar System (being understood as its outer edge, rather than the inner edge of the - then unknown - Kuiper Belt). Fair enough, but what is it based on today? American patriotism? 80.145.233.192 00:47, 11 February 2006 (UTC)-

Historical precedence. I don't see any patriotism or nationalism in the debate at all...--Stephan Schulz 12:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

The key appears to be that the IAU considered it a planet for historical reasons, and pending their reclassification of it as either "still a planet" or "not a planet any more", it'll still be called a planet in general texts for the time being. Shimgray | talk | 12:38, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I really don't think people wanting to keep Pluto as a planet is a result of OMG evil American patriotism but rather that the idea of it being a planet is stuck in the minds of the public (not so much for the scientists). I'm an American and I always thought it was discovered by a British guy O_o.PhoenixSeraph 13:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Now we just need to drop the rest of our historical anachronisms and recognize that everything else in the so-called "solar system" is nothing more than debris floating around a giant reactor. Perhaps we should just call the "solar system" the galactic "dust bin" for now until we can come up with a better name. SHED HISTORY! PLUTO IS DEAD, LONG LIVE THE IAU!!! —Two-Bit Sprite 20:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Who cares what a bunch of unelected bureaucrats have to say about anything? Pluto is a planet (and will remain a planet in many minds) because of CULTURAL DEMANDS, if we Demote Pluto as a planet then we need to strip Europe of it's Continent status. In fact we need to get rid of Africa and Asia while we are at it and make it Eurafasia and sorry North and South America, your just America now. Why? Because the geology bureaucrat on the left says you are. The Fading Light 22:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Precisely. —Two-Bit Sprite 22:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Eurafasia is a continent. The word "continent" can refer to political continents (where Europe is included) and scientific continents (where it is not). Talk to a geologist or biologist, and they will not see Europe as seperate from Asia. Just because Europe is historically and politically important, and just because people are use to calling it a continent doesn't make it true. The same goes for Pluto. Just because we have been calling Pluto a planet rather than a Kuiper Belt object doesn’t make it so. As much as it upsets some people, democracy doesn’t trump science. --Arctic Gnome 23:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I really hate to burst your bubble but there are some things that are more important than science. The Fading Light 23:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course there are, but importance does not decide scientific truth. If everyone really wanted to categorise elephants as a type of fish, that would not make it true, regardless of the importance of public opinion. --Arctic Gnome 23:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

You say "democracy does not trump science", so oligarchy does? Firstly, whether or not Pluto is a Planet is merely a matter of definition and/or convention, nothing scientific about it. So, your statement should read "convention does not trump oligarchy". —Two-Bit Sprite 14:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikiproject Echo

Template:FAOL There are many similarities between the French and English articles, including numerous passages which are translations of one another. It seems that borrowing of content has already happened. As it stands, it does not seem that there is any additional content in the French article that could be added to the English article. -- Curps 14:52, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Theres more in the German Wiki. I don't know anything in that language though, but it's there.--Planetary 20:28, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Charon

I was surprised to see shair'-ən /ˈʃɛərən/ given as the pronunciation for Charon in the table under Pluto's moons. The Charon article gives both this and kair'-ən /ˈkɛərən/. The Greek name Χάρων can, as far as I know, never be pronounced with sh as the first sound. The letter Χ in Greek stands for a sound that is similar to German ch in ich or Scottish ch in loch, and it's best transliterated by kh. It can be pronounced as k or h or something in-between, but never sh. Can the suggested pronunciation be reliably sourced? Aquirata 09:27, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Changed pronunciation to kair'-ən /ˈkɛərən/. Aquirata 20:57, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Changed it back. Plenty of sources in earlier discussion at Charon article (perhaps archived by now?). Shair'-ən is the common pronunciation of this body among astronomers, as it was among the discoverer and his colleagues. The 'correct' pronunciation of a word is how it is pronounced, and the sh version is by far the more common. kwami 13:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Pluto Image

Jesus H. Christmas! We can send men to the moon, locate small planets orbiting stars billions and trillions of miles away, perfectly map our galaxy, and have our pet's medication delivered to our door -- but we cannot get one clear picture of Pluto!?--Mdriver1981 02:12, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

That is the worst picture of anything I have ever seen on Wikipedia. Caesar 03:40, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

It's the best picture that exists! It is a long way away... We could run with the slightly older, slightly worse resolution, but not quite as hideous, Image:Plutoncharon1.jpg; Image:Pluto artistimpression.gif is detailed, but heavily conjectural. Shimgray | talk | 12:41, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Even the current image is not a photograph. Even Hubble can't take images at that resolution. The image has been synthetized from brightness curves in two colors during mutual eclipses of Pluto and Charon which occurred between 1985 and 1990.[1] (BTW, why those eclipses aren't mentioned in the article?)--JyriL ^talk 15:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Is it me or does this (Image:Plutoncharon1.jpg) just look like a disco ball? Are there any plans to send a mission to photograph Pluto? Or is there one already in progress? Alexj2002 22:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, just read that section of the article. 8 years until we get a proper photo... Alexj2002 22:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Editing

I cleaned-up and edited this Talk page a bit to tighten up the spacing. Also removed some unsigned comments about the planetary statis or lack of. This is not the place for a discussion group on the subject, and if you won't sign your opinions, then they go bye-bye. CFLeon 01:43, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Symbols

I'm sitting here with a 1932 astrological handbook on my desk. Leaving aside their touching faith in Pluto as a source for astrological significance (how did they cope before 1930, one wonders?), the interesting detail is that it uses a symbol I've not seen before. They don't use the PL monogram, unsurprisingly, but they don't use the "circle in trident" symbol here.

Rather, it's a circle with an arrow to the top right - like the symbol for Mars - but with two parallel lines running across the shaft of the arrow (I can only describe it - too small to photograph cleanly). They're using it in text with the other symbols, which suggests they at least considered it standard enough to cut a punch for the symbol. Has anyone encountered this one anywhere else? Shimgray | talk | 13:15, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Like this? [2] (I just drew that based on your description.) Seems familiar, but not for Pluto. Symbols.com doesn't list it. DenisMoskowitz 15:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Pretty much; slightly "stubbier" and the lines are closer together, but that's probably just an artifact of the small printsize. It is familiar, but I'm damned if I can think where... I've seen Mars-with-one-bar before, as a male-and-female symbol, but not two. Shimgray | talk | 16:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

If you don't mind, who is the author of the handbook? I recall seeing the same or similar symbol when leafing through a work from the same period and being surprised. I don't recall who the astrologer was, but it was someone notable such as Elsbeth Ebertin or Koch. Zeusnoos 16:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Raphael's Almanac 1933; don't know who actually wrote it. Shimgray | talk | 16:38, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Since this is a different source from the same time period, I think this symbol must have been an early version of the astrological symbol for Pluto. It apparently did not catch on since astrologers then primarily used the floating circle in a cup beneath a cross. Zeusnoos 17:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Copyright violation

http://www.ldolphin.org/unruh/planet/ch4ph.html

--Gbleem 21:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Elaborate please. 70.177.71.206 14:02, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

update from IAU and websites to watch

This is from an astronomy mailing list:

"So ... just wait til 8 a.m. CEST Wednesday - and be prepared to be surprised (those planetary astronomers here in Prague who have heard about the ideas put forward in the resolution certainly were).

The resolution, several articles and a detailled Q&A will appear at http://astro.cas.cz/nuncius and also at http://www.astronomy2006.com (including some illustrations as well).

D. from the IAU GA"

Zeusnoos 18:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

If the resolution passes the article will have to change. Here's a concept. Have fun critiquing.

The Pluto-Charon binary are the tenth and eleventh planets of the Solar system. Pluto recently survived a challenge to its status as a planet and since Charon was of significant enough mass to force Pluto's barycenter with it above the plane of its surface, Charon was redefined as a planet instead of a satellite. Hopquick 05:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, they will be tenth and eleventh when this passes... but it hasn't yet. Here's my attempt at a summary of the draft proposal from the IAU. Shimgray | talk | 09:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

When Pluto/Charon are the 10th and 11th, who stole the ninth? Or will Luna be promoted as well? ;-) --Stephan Schulz 09:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Ceres gets promoted too, as does UB313. They've twelve more possible candidates in the outer system, and explicit options on three large asteroids pending further study. Shimgray | talk | 09:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

For those following the excitement, "If the proposed Resolution is passed, the 12 planets in our Solar System will be Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Ceres, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto, Charon and 2003 UB313" http://www.iau2006.org/mirror/www.iau.org/iau0601/iau0601_release.html Zeusnoos 13:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

I almost cried when I saw Ceres on the lists of planets. I was more enthusiastic about Ceres than even Pluto. This is an awesome day. The Heavens reveal that we don't yet know everything. ^_^ Hopquick 14:05, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Template:IAU potential planet was removed. Because it was considered "hideous" by one. I think that because it's planet status is uncertain, that it is warranted? comments? McKay 14:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• it is not a potencial candidate, potencial candidates are Ceres, Charon and Xena. Not Pluto.--Pedro 14:58, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

the current proposed definition, which has not been finalized, does affect pluto in that it changes it's status. But the real reason I'm putting it here, is that there are other definitions under some level of consideration, some of which would eliminate pluto from having planetary status. Presuming that the currently proposed definition is the one that will be chosen makes wikipedia a crystal ball WP:NOT. The template used the phrase "exclusion" as a parameter, signifiying that the planet is being considered for exclusion. McKay 15:13, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The template was hideous. It was also pointless, because we have better pre-existing templates for this kind of thing. Henry^Flower 15:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Sure the template was hideous, what could be done to improve it? Also, the infobox template that I created has more information that might be valuable. I'm thinking that a WikiProject might be created, and an infobox template might be the best place to start. When the final decision is made, there will need to be changes to dozens (hundreds) of articles. McKay 15:40, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

We already have a template for articles related to current events: Template:currentrelated. We don't need to re-invent the wheel (especially when the new version's a triangle). Yes, changes will be needed on all the affected articles: by all means make sure they're co-ordinated. But ugly, pointless templates won't help with that. Henry^Flower 15:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The latest from a IAU member (posted on a public astronomy mailing list):

"There has just been the first open debate here at the IAU General Assembly on the proposed resolution in which only planetary scientists (planets of all sizes) took part: The proposal lost, about 60:40, to an alternative put forward by a group of other planetologists (which would have made "being by far the largest object in the local population" plus roundness the criteria for being a planet and thusly excluding Pluto). The term "plutons" was rejected in a 2nd vote by an overwhelming majority, for the linguistical confusion it may trigger (and has already done so in places). None of these votes is binding in any way: It's up to decide for the IAU Executive now to decide on further action ..." Zeusnoos 16:24, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Space.com news article--JyriL ^talk 17:10, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Smallen ze article

There's a suggestion on the article page to smallen ze article... my suggestion is to split off a Pluto and Charon article, that is similar to the Earth and Moon article. Zzzzzzzzzzz 04:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

special symbol??

The symbol for Pluto here is different: Alchemical_symbol#Seven_Planetary_Metals. Why is the one in the article different? Should we include both? Why are there variations on planet symbols and who decides which ones are official, etc.--Sonjaaa 16:07, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Astronomers use one; astrologers use another. Simple as that. We already refer to the non-standard astrological one. As to "who decides", no idea... but I suspect the IAU will assume that role. Shimgray | talk | 16:09, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Discovery photograph

The 'discovery photographs' of Pluto need an arrow to show which of the 'stars' is Pluto, because I can't see any difference between them! The Singing Badger 14:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason you can't see any difference is....because Pluto isn't on the lower one! Oops. For some reason, the bottom plate has been cropped above where Pluto is. See this photo.Richard B 22:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Article Vandalized

Someone vandalized this article, does anyone have a back-up? 82.176.194.151 13:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Solved 82.176.194.151 13:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Pluto demoted

I have just heard this news only 3-4 hours after it was announced and having come here to see what I could edit into the article, I see that it has already been done in a fairly well-documented manner. Bravo to the early editors on this interesting astrologicalastronomical news. Here is another source from the BBC on the topic if anyone feels it necessary to add without being superfluous to the article. ju66l3r 15:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The sections on the debate re. Plutos planetary status needs to be updated further. -- Egil 15:34, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Astronomical, not astrological. GBC 17:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

D'oh. Thanks for the catch, I'm a little hopped up on Advil Cold & Sinus right now. :/ ju66l3r 17:30, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Separation of the church and state, anyone?

So, the new clergy has decreed that it is now blasphemous to refer to Pluto as a planet? I think it needs to be made clear that while any arbitrary body of academics can create whatever rules they like in this regard, the word "planet" is ultimately a subjective term, to be used by individuals as they please. The IAU's authority does not (and should not) extend to the pedantic enforcement of written and spoken language as a means of describing the universe. In this regard, the IAU's decision is inconsequential. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crk (talk • contribs) .

• Instead of using planet, use world in the article and that's solved. --Pedro 15:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. Many scientific terms have non-scientific usage. It's possible that people will continue to use the word planet to describe Pluto, but my feeling is in a generation people will forget about this little blip in history. Just like they forgot about Ceres being a planet. Anyway, changing the term to "world" would not be consistent with common useage in American or British english, so I don't think it would be appropriate. --Aelffin 15:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

oh, my god! a body of scientists has defined what a term of scientific jargon that's in popular use means! oh noes! Seriously, this isn't a big thing. "Planet" is an astronomical term which is also in general use; it's been redefined before, most significantly in the 1850s, and the English language didn't collapse. Shimgray | talk | 15:52, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Second planet stripped of its status?

The article says this:

{quotation|Pluto has become the second object in our Solar System to be stripped of its planetary status; the first being Ceres.}

Weren't the Sun and Moon once considered planets? I can't seem to find confirmation of this on Wikipedia, but surely when we thought the Earth was the center of the universe, we must have consdered at least the Sun to be a planet? --P3d0 15:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ceres was not alone in being stripped of planetary status - the redefinition only came in the 1850s, when there were fifteen minor planets. See here. Shimgray | talk | 15:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I've got it! Let's rename "Uranus" to "Pluto"! Kids are happy because Pluto's a planet and we'll finally be rid of that nasty Uranus issue. --Aelffin 16:00, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

No, everyone knows that Uranus will be changed to Urectum in 2285, finally making efforts towards a, "less offensive," name,... ;-) Dr. Cash 17:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Wasn't it originally called Herschel? I believe that's German for "Ursphincter". --Aelffin 17:42, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

To the person who was looking for a citation in wikipedia on when the sun and moon were considered planets, do a search on "planets". It is a good article which will tell all about the original conception of the solar system. 144.141.194.3

Another perspective - Ceres was demoted long before movies, radio broadcasts and TV shows ingrained it as a planet in popular culture - it was only a planet in esoteric documents that were frequented by astronomers. Very few people read books about the solar system, and I doubt it was taught in school with any emphasis. On the other hand, Pluto has been ingrained in our culture: Disney's animated dog, movies like "Man from Planet X", Galactica 1980 (The Night the Cylons Landed), and Futurama. The public expects Pluto to be a planet. Popularizing astronomy has made it an expectation that Pluto is a planet, to an extent that the demoters of Ceres could never have imagined. GBC 22:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree thanks for putting it better than I could.--T. Anthony 03:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

NPOV attempts

Someone is trying to modify the intro to be a "some people say Pluto is a planet and some don't" thing, which just looks terrible. It's defined as a dwarf planet; we can say (in the appropriate places) that some people still consider it a planet, and we can say that it was historically one, but we can't claim that this is ambiguous. Shimgray | talk | 16:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's too early to even say "some people still call Pluto a planet". The most NPOV thing we could say and still be accurate is that some people have objected to this reclassification. We'll have to wait a while to see whether the usage acutally changes. --Aelffin 16:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

The usage will inevitably change. Look at Ceres ... it was redefined as not being a planet in 1850 and we never looked back (well, except for very briefly in 2006). --Cyde Weys 19:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Not inevitably. 1 Ceres was called a planet for a shorter period of time and with less popular interest in an age of lower literacy. Pluto has been a planet in film and literature for 76 years in a more literate age. People, me for one, will stick with it as such.--T. Anthony 03:29, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the usage stays the same. It won't be the first time the public didn't understand scientific terminology. See evolution, organic, there, their, and they're for other examples. --Aelffin 13:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You can't seriously compare this to evolution. Natural selection can be shown by the fossil record and the relatedness of species by genetics. You can't show what is or is not a planet in the same way, you can only make definitions which may or may not be accepted. It's like the definition of Megafauna or Continent there are many cases open for debate.--T. Anthony 13:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Protection?

I saw somebody tried to put this page on semi-protection. Considering the incessant vandalism, maybe this is a good idea. --Aelffin 17:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I would second this, particularly after reviewing the history page and seeing that a large amount of traffic is from vandalism from IPs and subsequent reversions. Dsf 17:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I've semiprotected it. Let's try lifting it after a few hours... Shimgray | talk | 17:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Lawsuit

The article says "Constance Lowell, Percival's widow who had delayed the search through her lawsuit..."

What lawsuit is being referred to?

This article will be moved to...

Just like we call Sedna as 90377 Sedna, Pluto should also have a number.

Since 129,436 such solar system bodies have been numbered, so what if move this article to 129437 Pluto, and move Charon (moon) to (129437) Pluto I Charon?

Yao Ziyuan 17:56, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Oppose - Speculation. --GW_Simulations_{|User Page | Talk | Contribs | Chess | E-mail} 17:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

We don't even know if dwarf planets will be numbered in future, much less what those numbers would be. Shimgray | talk | 18:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Give the poor IAU a chance to relax and have a cup of tea before they start to sort this stuff out. It's their job, not ours. The Singing Badger 18:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Hear hear! They've been through enough already; it was traumatic for all involved, not just the poor public who can't believe Pluto's not a planet. Hint: Santa Claus might need your attention. Too bad WP:FAITH isn't an official policy in the broader world. --Aelffin 18:17, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

But Ceres is also a drawf planet, and it has a number, called 1 Ceres. — Yao Ziyuan 18:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

And if the IAU gives Pluto a number, then we'll reflect that here. But until then, it's just Pluto. There are plenty of other situations where "extrasystematic" names have been granfathered in--see the "misplaced Trojans" in the Greek Camp of the Trojan asteroids, for example. It's just par for the course. --Aelffin 18:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

No WP:OR, please. Pluto has had a name since 1930 ... I don't think they'll be changing it anytime soon. A lot of smaller moons in the solar system don't have numbers anyway (Titan, Triton, Titania, et al), so there's some precedent for not requiring numbers on every non-planet. --Cyde Weys 18:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Clear its orbit ???

What does the IAU mean by "clear its orbit"? And they say because it crosses Neptune's orbit that Pluto doesn't meet that definition? What does Neptune have to do with it? Does that mean Neptune isn't a planet either, because its orbit crosses Pluto's? In fact, Pluto doesn't get anywhere near Neptune, due to inclination of orbit and some form of resonance.

A CTVNews poll shows a 3-1 majority in favour of grandfathering Pluto as a planet. And I'm not aware that the IAU has assigned a number to Pluto just yet. How about skipping other numbers and going with 193009 - i.e., in 1930, it became the 09th planet. GBC 18:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, Neptune is most definitely a planet. Pluto's mass compared to Neptune is absolutely trivial, so Neptune can be considered to have swept its orbit. See this paper for a lot more detail. Warning: real science content. That paper makes an absolutely compelling reason for why Pluto shouldn't be a planet, despite any possible public perception. The degree of difference of orbit-clearing is five orders of magnitude between the eight classical planets and then Pluto. If that isn't a very clear delineation, I don't know what else could be. --Cyde Weys 18:41, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It should also be noted that Pluto does not actually cross Neptune's orbit, as in, there is no chance that Neptune and Pluto will actually collide. Because of Pluto's inclined orbit it is actually a good distance above/below Neptune when it moves from farther away from the sun than Neptune to closer to the sun than Neptune. --Bobblehead 19:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually it's not the inclination that does it. Inclination just means that twice in every revolution it is at 0 degrees and thus on the ecliptic (where Neptune is). It's the orbital distance that prevents such a collision. See this image for an explanation. --Cyde Weys 19:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Eh. Depends what you're talking about, when Pluto crosses the ecliptic or when it and Neptune are the same distance from the sun. Most people have only seen a 2D picture of the orbits and there are 2 points where Neptune and Pluto cross. The assumption being that if Neptune and Pluto were to reach those points at the same time they would collide. Point I was making was that if Neptune and Pluto happen to be at the point on that 2D picture where their orbits meet it's the equivalent of an airplane flying over the top of a person walking on the ground. --Bobblehead 19:43, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

It should be noted that by this definition, Jupiter is technically a dwarf planet. There are a number of "trojan" asteroids that are in the same orbit as it. --GW_Simulations_{|User Page | Talk | Contribs | Chess | E-mail} 19:19, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

No, this is utterly false. Jupiter contains, to many, many orders of magnitude of precision, "all" of the mass in its orbit. Compared to the immense size of Jupiter these little piddling asteroids are nothing. Please, for the love of god, go read this paper rather than furthering misunderstandings about what "clearing out an orbit" means. --Cyde Weys 19:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Very well. Can you show that the orbit of Pluto contains objects more massive than it? From what I recall objects like UB313 are beyond its orbit. Its mass is over eight times that of Charon, Nix, and Hydra combined. What are the other objects in its orbit that make up the 1.14*10^22 kilograms needed to make it not be the most massive object in its orbit? The article also discussed eccentric orbits, but if this is used it would disqualify many of the extrasolar planets. In fact I think its possible this definition will demote future worlds we find on other solar systems even if they're Earth-sized and habitable.--T. Anthony 03:43, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

T. Anthony, you should read Cyde's post again. He never said that Pluto wasn't the most massive object in its orbit. Jupiter has very close to all of its orbit's mass in the planet itself, whereas the other objects in Pluto's orbit make up a significant amount of that orbit's mass (even if less than half). --Arctic Gnome 03:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The article indicates that it should have more than a 100 times the mass of other objects in its orbit. However this means that the Earth is not a planet as its mass is only 80 times, aprroximately, that of the Moon. So I could take the article seriously and believe that there are only 7 planets, Earth not being one, or I can pick a different mass differential to matter.--T. Anthony 04:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Good on ya, Cyde. It seems like every celestial body article is being edited by people proclaiming either their favorite rock is a planet, or that their least favorite planet "technically isn't". I think most people either haven't read the paper, or their eyes glaze over at phrases like "Hubble time". Rant over. Derek Balsam 19:50, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Even if you don't neglect the Trojan asteroids and other such objects, all the gas giants have cleared their orbits. The Trojans are at very specific points along Jupiters orbit that are defined by Jupiter's gravity. If Jupiter hadn't cleared its orbit they would not be restricted to those points. A massive body collects all bodies near it either into itself, its orbit, its L4 and L5 points with the sun, into resonant orbits, or it ejects them. Its just like cleaning your room. It doesn't mean nothing is in your room, but simply that it's all neatly put away. Linguofreak 19:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That is an excellent explanation and even better metaphor. Thank you very much. --Cyde Weys 20:26, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I've read the paper (before the descision was made), and I disagree that 'clear its orbit' must neccessarily refers to what the author of this paper was tallking about. If the definition authors wanted to imply what the paper was talking about, they should have used better terminology, like 'has the most mass in it orbital zone by far'. JamesFox 20:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Question

I believe I recall reading once that Pluto's atmosphere extends far enough to be shared with Charon. Is this true? Linguofreak 20:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

New Horizons will study this, I think?--Sonjaaa 20:16, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"ninth planet" redirect?

Should it stay or should it go? Starks 20:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Ninth planet RfD'd. Femto 20:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

"prototype of a yet to be named family"?

I'm curious about the "prototype of a yet to be named family of Trans-Neptunian objects" claim in the intro. I thought IAU was going with classifying it as a "dwarf planet" and the type specimen of a Plutino? The sentence is confusing to me, but I don't see how to clarify it. --Graham^talk/mail/e 20:18, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

They were going to pass a resolution saying "This is the first of a class of TNOs we will call 'plutonian objects'". Only the first half of this passed; we now have it resolved as the first of a new class of TNOs, the name of which has not yet been decided on (it'll go to an IAU committe, I guess). Plutino was already in use to mean something with a specific resonance, and isn't what they mean - this new class is "big TNOs like Pluto" not "TNOs with orbits like Pluto" Shimgray | talk | 20:23, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha. Many thanks! --Graham^talk/mail/e 23:03, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

What's all the fuss?

So Pluto has been classified as a dwarf planet. So what? A "dwarf planet" is still a planet by virtue of including the word "planet." Sure, it can't in scientifically correct speech be referred to as an unqualified "planet," but it still contains the word. It might be better just to drop the use of unqualified "planet" altogether: There are significant differences between Mercury and the larger rockballs, between the rockballs and the Gas Giants, between the Gas giants and the iceballs, and between the iceballs and Mercury. And it's hard to tell whether Ceres is best thrown in with Mercury or the asteroids. So it might not be good to refer to any object as simply a "planet," but rather, "icy dwarf planet," "gas giant," "rocky dwarf planet," "habitable terrestrial," etc. Linguofreak 20:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

No, a dwarf planet is not a planet, it is a separate classification. There's actually a bit of backlash against the new terminology precisely because it has the potential to confuse people, as it did you. --Cyde Weys 20:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

This is apparently not clear to even all scientists judging by Jocelyn Bell Burnell's statement that "It could be argued that we are creating an umbrella called 'planet' under which the dwarf planets exist,"[3]--T. Anthony 10:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Mmmh. You could argue that... but when the IAU voted on 5B, it was pretty clear (to me) from the framing of the debate that they intended "eight planets" v "eight classical planets" to be the decider as whether or not "planet" was an over-arching group or a specific term... and we just got the specific term. Shimgray | talk | 10:41, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

From "Nature"[4]:

"Demotion

Instead, Pluto is one of a new category of object to be known as 'dwarf' planets (which, not to be confusing, don't fall under an umbrella term of 'planets', and must, by definition, be written with single quote marks around 'dwarf'). These objects satisfy the other criteria, in being round and not a satellite. Ceres, which lies in the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter, is also now a 'dwarf' planet.

'Dwarf' planets in Pluto's neighbourhood, including the object nicknamed Xena (UB313), will be given a category of their own. But the IAU's most recent suggestion, that these be named 'plutonian objects', was narrowly voted down, by 186 votes to 183."Selfishjeans 13:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Formally, "planet" is not a set including dwarf planets; the IAU explicitly voted against having "dwarf planets" and "classical planets" instead of "planet" and "dwarf planet". Saying "let's not use unqualified planet" goes entirely against the point of the new terminology, which is to differentiate types of bodies. (I don't much like it, but there you go) Shimgray | talk | 20:28, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

One suspects that "dwarf planet" was chosen in part because it preserved the sentimental attachment to "planet" for Pluto, while being technically distinct. There have long been bodies called minor planets, though the general public may not have known; this term was discarded with the new decision. (Does this mean the Minor Planet Center will be renamed? How about the Minor Planet Circulars?) As for what the general public will do (or journalists, or politicians), who knows. Science and known facts have only a limited influence. --KSmrq^T 21:27, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

True, the general public would have their own common vernacular. We called it the neutron bomb, the military called it the enhanced radiation warhead; the movies called them the Russians, even while for 84 years they were officially the Soviets; some movie makers use the term "galaxy" for a group of stars or even one solar system (Battlestar Galactica (original) did that, so did Lost In Space); some movie makers might refer to a group of stars, in the context of space flight, as a constellation, even though once you get out there, most of the stars in a constellation are hundreds of light years apart and don't resemble that constellation at all! So, for us general public, Pluto can still be a planet, it just doesn't fly... or orbit... with officialdom of the IAU. GBC 22:06, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Pagemove

This page just got moved to Pluto (dwarf planet); I've moved it back. Please discuss any such moves; using this as the primary title was decided on long ago. Shimgray | talk | 21:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. It's unneccisary disambiguation anyway. --GW_Simulations_{User Page | Talk} 22:11, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I too concur.--Jersey Devil 23:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Even if Pluto isn't a "true" planet, it remains the most important of Plutos.--JyriL ^talk 23:59, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Charon is a dwarf planet too or a moon? It can't be a moon since it does not orbit Pluto. double dwarf system? --Noypi380 00:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction

"From its discovery in 1930 until 2006 it was considered the ninth and smallest of the planets..." I don't think so. Here's what it says later on: "The discovery [of Charon in 1978] also led astronomers to alter their estimate of Pluto's size. Originally, it was believed that Pluto was larger than Mercury..." From 1930 to 1978, was it considered smallest or second smallest? Art LaPella 23:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

My old 1968 astronomy textbook says Pluto has a radius of 3000 km, bigger than Mercury. So I'll change the second paragraph. Art LaPella 17:44, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if we should cite the all-important study on this (Dessler, A.J., Russel, C.T., 1978. EOS, Transactions, American Geophysical Union. 61:690)... Shimgray | talk | 17:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

7 planets?

After carefully analyzing resultion 5A ( the one that excluded pluto from the other 8 ) i noticed a serious flaw. Why is neptune a planet and pluto not? To put it simply the reason pluto isn't a planet is because neprtune crosses its path. I saw now significance in this but i figured they knew what they were talking about. But, the resolution failed to give explanation on why neptunes a planet, if it also crosses the path of pluto. One line cannot intersect the other line without the other line intersecting it? i mean its like thinking about a plus sign. + can u say that the line going down intersects with the line going across, but the line going across doesn't intersect the line going down? PLEASE correct me if i am wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.107.246 (talk • contribs)

Read the section headed 'Clear its Orbit???' a few lines above your post. The Singing Badger 00:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

EDIT: I am very sorry I did not read all of the articles, just skimmed their titles i am not an advanced astronomer(no astronomy classes sinse the 5th grade) so i am not familiar with hubble time or all of these big words, so let me get this straight, neptunes gravity is what make pluto cross its orbit so there fore pluto doesn't clear the neighborhood? That sounds pretty shakey but is that what your getting at? pluto isn't big enough to keep a steady orbit? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.39.107.246 (talk • contribs) I believe that the IAU should release another definition. 1 that explains (in the simplist terms) what defines "clear it's orbit". For those who want an explanation (not using things like L4 or L5 or hubble time or algerbra so that we can fully understand why they did what they did. Who's with me?

I wish you the best of luck understanding planetary orbits without understanding algebra. But for starters you can go to clearing the neighbourhood. The basic idea is that a few billion years ago, there were no planets, just a big disk of gas and dust. Over time, a fundamental force called gravity made all the bits of gas and dust want to stick together. This was complicated by the problem that the entire disk was also spinning at the same time. Oh, and there was a big flaming nuclear fire in the middle of all that as well, pulling everything in, but also spitting radiation out. Just to make things more complicated and require algebra. Over time, some of the gas and dust clumped together enough to scoop up other clumps as they spun. Etc. for billions of years. The end result was a handful of really really big clumps of junk (planets) which tend to orbit in fairly clear space because they sucked up some junk and slingshotted out other junk, some small bits of junk which follow those planets around like groupies (trojans and plutinos, etc.), and a bazillion other clumps of junk which are still all jumbly. Only the really big clumps that have cleared out a lot of space are now considered "planets". Derek Balsam 01:35, 25 August 2006 (UTC)Oh so what they are getting at is there is still a lot of clutter in the path of pluto's orbit and a planet is something that would have cleared it out by now. Now why the heck couldn't couldn't someone have said it that way earlier! i mean really " clearin the neighbor hood is when a planet gravity divided by x within hubble time therefore..." i mean really! Thank you so much that makes sense. but... (and im sorry if i'm just not thinking properly) what does that have to do with neptune? as stated befor their orbits don't really cross, so does that mean that neptune cleared the neighborhood of pluto, i get all confused when they mention neptune

I am making mistakes all over the place today! I didn't read the rest of the articall once they mentioned x/m2... Any way i read it and it explained it in realitivly simple terms. A planet has to weigh more than the weight of all of the other bodies in its orbital zone. and neptune weighs much more. short, sweet and to the point.

Planet?

As for demoting Pluto, all I can say is: "And yet it moves." But that means we can call Xena Xena, right? What's the convention on naming dwarf planets?

I read once (I wish I could give you a reference, but I can't remember; I hate myself) that Mercury couldn't "clear it's orbit", and the only reason its orbit is clear is due to its close proximity to the sun. Can anyone find this agian for me? Or disprove it? Because, if that's true, then we should demote Mercury, too.

We are not demoting anything, the IAU decided to recategorize Pluto as a dwarf planet. Mercury has cleared its orbit because it is large enough and far enough away from the Sun that there is nothing that would prevent it from clearing its orbit. And based off of recent namings of planetoids past Pluto that dwarf planets will probably be named after death deities (Pluto/Hades being gods of death, as are Quaoar and Sedna). Ryūlóng 04:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and "Xena" is only a temporary name; it's also been suggested that it be named Lila. For all that is known, it can be named Osiris or Anubis or after any other death deity. Ryūlóng 04:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Use the Humpty Dumpty definition

We don't have to accept the IAU's definition of a planet. The word has been in existence long before they were.

Math is fundamental to all science. Lewis Carroll demonstated a basic mathmatical principle when he wrote, '"When I use a word,"Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."' I think math trumps the IAU. We can choose the Humpty Dumpty definition over the IAU's. It allows for the discovery of new planets in our solar system. Science should not be locked in just because some orginization doesn't want new planets.

Pluto is a planet whether the IAU likes it or not. In fact I now know there are 12 planets, Mercury, Venus, Earth, Mars, Ceres, Jupiter, Saturn, Neptune, Uranus, Pluto, Charon, and 2003 UB₃₁₃.

Don't forget Chaos, Ixion, Orcus, Quaoar, Sedna, Varuna, 1996 TO66, 2002 AW197, 2002 TC302, 2002 TX300, 2002 UX25, 2003 EL61, and 2005 FY9. Pluto is still officialy a planet under IAU, they just created a new sub-category. We now have terrestrial planets, gas giants, and dwarf planets. --Arctic Gnome 01:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Elsewhere they indicated being a dwarf planet means it is not one of the planets. If this announcement means there are three kinds of planets(Gas giant, terrestrial, and dwarf) I'd have no complaints.--T. Anthony 04:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact is that someone has to define some rules. "Planet" is a human categoriztion fot "the things in the sky". What the term covers has to be set, and it is quite relevant that a union of international astronomers choose. I mean, it could have been the union of italian bakers, but would you have thought that relevant? Of course, any definition remains arbitrary and cannot be described as ojective truth. Calling Pluto a planet or not is a matter of convetion, I completely agree with the Humpty Dumpty rule. Planet could has well be used to describe any celestial object, if we decide to. There is no iron rule.

But how can you state that "Pluto is a planet" as if it were an objective truth? It is not by the IAU definition, it is by yours, and it can be by mine. By the way, accordingly to my definition of a planet, asteroids of the belt, which are solids revolving around the sun, are planets too. Because like you, I think it's cool to have new planets so by my standards we have thousands, which is great!

By the way, there is no such thing as "pink". It's "red" like "light blue" is "blue". We chose to make a distinction between pink and red, and because your mind has been used to seeing things this way you interpret it as two different colours. What on earth, apart from human categorization, states that "light red" is "pink" and that "light blue" is still "blue"? Some African tribes have a different way of naming colors, for instance there is one for which "yellow" and "red" are under the same name, something like "warm colour". Though it strikes you and me that red and yellow are two different colours, this is nothing objective. "Navy blue" and "sky blue" are very different colours, much more than blood red and orange, but we name them the same.

What I am trying to say is that the HD rule is true, and that any word is a matter of convention. I call a tree "arbre" because I am French, but Germans call it "Baum". Who is right? No one. Everyone has his own convention. The IAU tried to make an international convention, they don't pretend to hold the truth. They could have chosen to name only Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars planets, had they agreed to.

221.249.13.22 02:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)droopy5

Okay, Pluto is a planet, but it is officially designated as a dwarf planet by the International Astronomical Union. That is the crux of this whole argument, that everyone's pissed that they suddenly decided to give Pluto a new designation as a planet (and it may become a Pluton or Plutoid or whatever they come up with). There are worse things in this world than a simple redesignation of a celestial object not bigger than the Earth's moon. Ryūlóng 04:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Arctic.gnome: Sorry, you're incorrect. Pluto is not a planet, it is a separate classification called "dwarf planet" that has an unfortunately confusing name that happens to have the word "planet" in it. "Dwarf planets" and "planets" are mutually exclusive. Amongst the planets you have your four terrestrial planets and your four gas giants, while amongst the dwarf planets you have your icy ones (e.g. Pluto) and your rocky ones (e.g. Ceres). And sorry to the anon above, but the definition of planet isn't whatever you want it to be ... it's what the IAU defines it to be. You can ignore them if you want to, but then you're just making yourself irrelevant, because anyone active in the field is going to be using the same definition. That's one of the ways science works; through standard definitions. You think scientists would be able to communicate effectively if they all used different definitions of other terms merely because they used to be something different in the past, like the meter? Gahhh! Unthinkable! --Cyde Weys 04:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Scientists aren't a priesthood, and I'm Catholic so good with priesthoods, so defining a point of dogma doesn't make it something those not of them must accept. Definitions are simply what's useful for them. The public can and does still talk of things like brontosaurus or what have you. Because names or definition are not scientific facts. People have as much right to disregard them as not.--T. Anthony 04:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

That may be so, but because an international organization of astronomers have decided to make this change to the definition of a planet and Pluto's status as a planet, we will be following their definitions, not those of the public. Ryūlóng 04:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This is fine by me and I don't intend to change the article. I'm just saying it's not a fact the way the laws of gravity or the physical constants are facts. It's simply a definition or title. It's something decided by a culture. In this case though it's a culture that has more authority over such things and so deserves respect in an informative article. (If not in the general world where it does not)--T. Anthony 04:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

If you read the relevant paper you will see that the new definition is based on facts just as much as gravity or physical constants are. The old definition was arbitrary; the new definition relies on some pretty fundamental cosmology, specficially, accretion of planets from the proto-stellar disk. --Cyde Weys 06:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not what Anthony meant. The law of gravity is a fact: you will fall to Earth at a speed given by your weight, the air resistance and so on. This is a fact. That Pluto is a planet or not is not a fact, it is a matter of designation. True this is based on facts, but it depends on which facts. They could have decided to name planets only the first four based on the fact that a planet has to be solid. Or they could have called the 8 planets "dingledings" if they had wanted the definition of "dingleding" to be the one they gave to "planet". The fact that the 8 planets of the solar system are called "planets" is only a matter of convention. We name them planet the way we decided to name "red giants" stars of a certain size and temperature or whatever, based on facts and rules. Any definition is arbitrary in the extent that the choice of characteristics associated to the definition is arbitrary. 221.249.13.22 06:42, 25 August 2006 (UTC)droopy5

Based on facts is not the same as facts. Different criteria could be used to define a planet as is true in other endeavors. Take Dogs for instance. By some definitions they are carnivores and by others omnivores. By some definitions they are a subspecies of wolf and by others they are several subspecies of wolf. These varied interpretations are based on fact. However gravity or the physical constants exist. They are not something created by human definitions. Our interpretations of the facts might make gravity part of some unified-force, but it doesn't make it stop being any kind of force. The ratio of electron mass to proton mass isn't going to change if we wished to call an electron a "really small thingy" rather than a sub-atomic particle. To compare human definitions to universal facets of nature is a rather serious error of logic.--T. Anthony 07:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Some quotes that go both ways. "Although 2,500 astronomers from 75 nations attended the conference, only about 300 showed up to vote." "But I understand science is not something that just sits there. It goes on. Clyde finally said before he died, 'It's there. Whatever it is. It is there.'"[5]--T. Anthony 10:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't feel comfortable with the current definition. "Pluto is a dwarf planet in the solar system. It was classified as a planet until it was determined on August 24, 2006 that it is not a true planet.": I think that rewriting this as "It was considered the nineth planet of the solar system until on August 25, 2006 IAU established more severe criteria in order to assign the definition of planet to a celestial body." or something like that could be more objective and less questionable (can we say that the IAU definition states what is a TRUE planet?).User:dawide 18:58, 25 August 2006 (CET)

Exactly, the new definition will be tought in schools and universities. In a few decades this will be an anecdote in a footnote in wiki. Vox Populi will always exists not every one follows the norm.DrCito 04:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Combine 2 sections?

The section "International Astronomical Union meeting" overlaps the section "Demotion to a dwarf planet" they discuss its demotion and I believe that this should simply be another piece as it would complete the timeline (doubt to fact). Deathbob 05:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Demotion

I think the use of word demotion throughout the article is POV. Pusher 05:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It's been described as a "demotion" by several media outlets. If the passages are simply references to the way it's been perceived by some observers I don't see anything wrong with using that term, although I suppose describing this decision in a generic sense as a demotion might pose a problem.

Ruthfulbarbarity 06:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

How is it POV? Is it not objective to say that planet is a higher classification than dwarf planet? As such, moving from the latter to the former would be a demotion by a simple dictionary definition. --Cyde Weys 06:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose the problem is that it signifies some sort of change in status, which is true, to the exent that it will no longer referred to as a "planet."

It's more of a reclassification than anything else.

That's all that the Astronomical Union did.

Nothing has really changed about the essential structure or orbital path of Pluto, regardless of whether it's described as a "planet" or a "dwarf planet" or something else.

Ruthfulbarbarity 08:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "reclassification" sounds a good neutral term. It also applies to objects like Ceres Shimgray | talk | 08:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur. I have thus edited a section heading to reflect this. Dsf 15:58, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

However,

Is it just me, or are you not supposed to begin a sentence with "however?" I edited it out of a sentence, but I was reverted :-\ 72.230.61.217 05:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

It's you, rest assured. Ruthfulbarbarity 06:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You are incorrect. However, it's good that you brought it here instead of grinding int an edit war over it. Hbdragon88 08:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I've had enough edit wars to last me a life time.... It appears, however, that I was correct. (see http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/032.html) 72.230.61.217 10:06, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

That just says "36% of people think so and another 20% vaguely agree". It doesn't seem to be in Fowler's, for what that's worth. Shimgray | talk | 10:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Next you're going to tell me that the serial comma isn't mandatory! 72.230.61.217 10:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Wall Street Journal mention

The Wall Street Journal article on this mentions how quickly the Wikipedia entries were updated.[6] AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 12:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

IAU Politics in Wikipedia article

A question for Wikipedians: is it appropriate to make a mention of the politics behind the vote? E.g. the cite of 4% of members in the room when they voted. I have no personal stance on this. I am just curious if this is appropriate for inclusion. If it is, then great. If not, then, well... Dsf 17:10, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably more appropriate to have details in the article on the debate itself (2006 redefinition of planet); just say something like "was decided by / was voted by) the IAU General Assembly..." Shimgray | talk | 17:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

At the very least it should be moved out of the introduction, where it seems out of place. -DoctorW 17:56, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

All right. I agree with a move of that part since there is already a discussion of reclassification process itself elsewhere, where it is a better and more natural fit. No outright deletion, just a relocation. Doing so momentarily. Dsf 19:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The new mnemonic?

Many very educated men just screwed up nine planets. Evertype 18:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Protection

Every time I refresh the watchlist this seemed to be being revandalised; just about every edit in the last couple of hours has been reverted. I've semiprotected it again, to give people a break from continually wiping up crap; might want to unprotect it again in a few hours. Shimgray | talk | 18:15, 25 August 2006 (UTC)