Talk:LGBTQ slang

Regarding the terms seeker, gift, gift giver, bugchaser: Why would someone actively seek to be infected with HIV? AndyCapp 18:26, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Many reasons, none of them normal or healthy. The short answer is, some people feel they're going to get infected anyway so they may as well get it over with. For more information do a search online, but be prepared to be disturbed. Let me point out again that this is not normal or representative of gay men at large. Exploding Boy 18:32, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely agree with Exploding Boy. They're certainly common enough terms (bugchaser is the one with which I'm most familiar, but that might be a British English thing; I'd certainly recognise the gift-related terms). The psychology behind desiring to be infected with HIV is somewhat complex, but there are certainly a lot of people out there who do actively seek infexion. OwenBlacker 20:46, Jun 5, 2004 (UTC)

That's incredibly bizarre. Are there a lot of people that do this? :-\ --Tothebarricades.tk 02:29, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Not that I know of. It appears to be a very underground sort of thing, but I seriously doubt there's any conclusive stats on the phenomenon. - jredmond 03:34, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There have been studies done, and a very small percentage of people/gay poeple do this. Reasons given include that unprotected sex is more "romantic". (I'll look around for old sources) Hyacinth 03:45, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There've been studies on giftgiving and bugchasing? Really??? - jredmond 03:52, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Does the term "velvet hammer" belong on this list of terms? 金 (Kim)

There's a very big difference between choosing to have unprotected sex, barebacking and bugchasing/gift giving. Exploding Boy 15:37, Sep 17, 2004 (UTC)

AntWiki's calls for justification - moved

The following terms should have authoritive citations if they are to remain in the article according to User:AntsWiki:

Seeker
Otter
Zegers

[Note: could the author of this entry adduce authoritative citational evidence for the existence of this definition?] AntsWiki 30/31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This was moved from the main article, to the discussion page where it belongs, so that the actual article is not affected. -Erolos 19:24, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

removed from article

The following are either not gay slang (see the first four entries, below) or are not used in English.

Arse-bandit; ass ~: See turd-burglar.
Arse-jockey; ass ~: See turd-burglar.
Arse-pirate; ass ~: See turd-burglar.
Back-door-bandit: See turd-burglar.
Eurofag: A description for a younger, trendy Continental European male (having the relevant European accent) of questionable sexuality who dresses in the latest European sportswear. Sunglasses and sunglass straps are almost always part of this (even when it's a cloudy day outside or the person is inside, or it's night outside), as is brighly-colored articles of clothing (although an all-black outfit is possible as well). This person might possibly be identified by such things as oversized pants-pockets, a fanny pack, camera, and/or touristy map, though these are not requirements. Considered mildly offensive to some [overly lengthy definition; not gay slang]
Gender transposition: (In gay male argot) the substitution of the masculine personal pronoun for the feminine form; intended either as a put-down or neutrally; hence: "Hey, have you seen Anthony in her (meaning his) new Gap shorts? She (he) looks like a pissy little rent-boy". "Jeremy's coming over at five; she's bringing her fabulosa (see polari) new trick". [this is not slang. give specific examples (see "She", in article]
Joto: (also puto and maricon; Mexican-Spanish): A gay man. [not English]
Mince: To walk (usually affectedly) in short steps in the manner of an effeminate gay male; hence: "That dipsy quean Justin was mincing around all night in her (meaning his - see gender transposition) tight little shorts." (British 1950's journalist's comments about Liberace, a middle to late C20th US entertainer) :"...deadly, winking, sniggering, snuggling, chromium-plated, scent-impregnated, luminous, quivering, giggling, fruit-flavored, mincing, ice-covered heap of mother-love". Usually pejorative. [Came from Polari. No longer specifically gay.]
Paki: Argentinism; term used by homosexuals to refer to heterosexual people [not used in English]
Puto: A usually pejorative word, used everywhere Spanish is spoken, to describe gay men. The masculine form of "puta," or prostitute. [not used in English]
- I would say this one has found its way into English. -- Jmabel | Talk 19:15, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)
Shit(hole)-shoveller: See turd-burglar. [not gay slang]
Trolo: Argentinism; Fag. [not English]
Turd-burglar: A gay male; the insertive partner in anal sex. Pejorative, but not in exclusively heterosexual usage; hence: "He's a fucking turd-burglar". "My dear, he's a raving turd-burglar; I could barely walk for a week after he finished with me". Related terms: arse (ass)-bandit; arse (ass)-jockey; arse (ass)-pirate; back-door-bandit; shit(hole)-shoveller. [Yeah. Right]

Exploding Boy 18:26, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

The people I know use Arse-bandit and similar terms all the time. I got from 'Yeah. Right.' that you find it offensive, but surely the whole point of many gay slang terms is that their usage by gay people is reduce their offensiveness. Could you elaborate on 'Yeah. Right.'? I think 'turd-burglar' and related terms should be re-added, as I KNOW them to be in mainstream gay usage. -Erolos 01:19, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In the Introduction Section the following has been arbitrarily removed by user Exploding Boy without explanation nor justification: 'Gay slang is often characterised by a self-mocking (and in the extreme, self-hating) acidulousness'. In the absence of any justification, I am restoring it.

I agree with Erolos that 'turd-burglar' and related terms should be restored; they are in current and frequent usage by gay people, to my personal knowledge. The 'Yeah. Right' comment by user Exploding Boy suggests personal disapproval, rather than objective judgement.

'Gender transposition' is of course not a slang term per se; it was inserted as an explanation of gays' frequent adoption of the form explained in the headword definition. I think it should be restored.

'Mince' is most definitely gay slang, and has been in use for some decades. Like many words which originated as gay slang, 'mince' has crossed into maintream usage. However, I followed the Oxford English Dictionary's precedent of defining words on 'historical principles'. Words should not be omitted solely on the grounds that they have been hijacked, or that they are 'no longer specifically gay' - to quote the deletor, user Exploding Boy. I vote the entry should be restored.

'Eurofag' is certainly in current usage, also to my personal knowledge. Agreed that the definition could do with some pruning and refinement, but length notwithstanding, I vote for its restoration in this article. Any volunteers?

As to the non-English terms - one hears them often in cosmopolitan gay circles, by English and non-English speakers interchangeably. However, I've no firm views on this.

AntsWiki 02:22, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I travel extensively and read gay publications from all over the world. I have never, ever heard (in person or in any other context) or seen in print any gay or lesbian person use the terms arse/ass-bandit, 'turd-burglar', poo-pirate (and related), and I sincerely doubt that they are used by gay people at all. Conversely, I have heard those terms used by non-gay people.

Re: "'Gay slang is often characterised by a self-mocking (and in the extreme, self-hating) acidulousness'" -- I see absolutely no evidence that that is the case.

I'm fine with examples of gender transposition, but not Gender transposition itself as an entry.

Mince is not gay slang. It may have originated as Polari, but is now in general use. "Mince" belongs in the Polari article, not here.

Eurofag, like "art fag," is not gay slang. The terms usually don't even refer to gay people.

If we're adding non-English terms, then I'll haul out my Japanese dictionary.

Exploding Boy 17:28, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Question to user: Exploding Boy: are you saying you merely 'read' about gay culture, rather than exist within it as a gay person?

Furthermore, Exploding Boy, in his latest unilateral MAJOR edit, has comprehensively, and without explanation, removed or revised headword definitions, links, preamble narrative, and illustrative, contextual quotations. I shall restore the status quo ante until explanations are given. Wiki point: do illustrative quotations have to be cited from the literature, or is it sufficient to make one up for the purpose of comprehensibility? If the former, I'll search for published citations. Further Wiki point: is it considered good etiquette to make huge edits without explanation in the way user Exploding Boy just did?

On the issue of my assertion that "'Gay slang is often characterised by a self-mocking (and in the extreme, self-hating) acidulousness'", I shall aim to provide documentation. Till then, I am content to omit.

On Gender transposition, it is crucial to the understanding of the entries 'She' and 'Her", and its omission leaves a gap in comprehension of these terms. I am therefore restoring this entry in the absence of any compelling reason to the contrary.

On Eurofag, this is a term to my certain knowledge in current usage in North American gay circles. I've never heard it used by straight people. I am therefore restoring it, in an edited form.

On Mince, the term originated well before Polari - in fact as early as 16th Century England. True, the term did not start out as gay slang - from the OED: 6. a. intr. To walk with short steps or with affected preciseness or nicety; to walk in an affected manner; to show affectation or affected delicacy in manner of gait. Also to mince it. 1562 Jack Juggler (Roxb. Club) 9 She minceth, she brideleth, she swimmeth to and fro. Even so, do you ever, these days, hear that word used outside of a gay context? What do others think?

On migration of non-English terms into the gay slang canon, I think language lives in precisely this way - it's dynamic. Tempted to restore. What do others think?

AntsWiki 00:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In response to AntsWiki, and as explanation for my revert:

Whether I'm gay or not is, frankly, none of your business and has nothing to do with my editing this article.

The fact that I didn't provide an edit summary is irrelvant also; the edit was not "major," but simply clarified/streamlined/added to certain definitions; I've restored my version because your revert caused many of those additions to be lost.

I also removed some unnecessary information from a few definitions, such as the extended examples, and moved links to the bottom of the page where they belong.

As to whether it is considered good etiquette to make "huge edits" without explanation, I don't believe there's much agreement. I don't feel my edit was that "huge" for one thing, and for another, it wasn't my intention to "hide" anything. Discussion should take place on the talk page, not the edit summary.

My objection to Gender transposition as an entry is that "gender transposition" is not gay slang. It is a feature of gay slang, yes. It should be mentioned under "she" and "her," but doesn't need it's own entry. I would support a paragraph of explanation, however. In fact, a section entitled "features of gay slang" would be a positive addition.

On Eurofag, I've never heard it used by gay people, in North America or elsewhere.

On Mince, if the term did not "start out as gay slang" and has thus never been gay slang, even if it's only used in describing supposedly gay people, it's not gay slang.

On migration of non-English terms into English gay slang, I'm fine with including such words. To be specific, that's words of non-English origin which are used in English gay slang. I disagree that the above examples fit that description. On the other hand, we could have a list of words in gay slang from all languages. Which is it to be?

Exploding Boy 02:00, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

Exploding Boy You have failed to justify your revert on any empirical, or intellectual basis; your approach throughout has been wholly subjective, unilateral, high-handed, often uninformed (in the sense of being a mere observer of the gay scene), and thus unpersuasive. Moreover, your statement: Whether I'm gay or not is, frankly, none of your business and has nothing to do with my editing this article is telling. Would you say the same thing if you were a white person editing an article about black society? I think not. Your credibility is therefore in question, and your revert has been been "reverted". Maybe we should go to arbitration?

AntsWiki 02:53, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm finding this sniping/reverting war between you two a bit bemusing.

First of all, AntsWiki, I don't see why you seem to have taken such offense at Exploding Boys' edits - they seemed to be intended merely to cleap up the article a little, and to remove some bit that were more generalisations and thus irrelevnt (i.e. 'and (less often) lesbians' - whilst it may be true it simply isnt relevent; the article is about usage within both homosexual genders). By reverting this edit, you also reverted the addition of some perfectly valid terms - boy bar, for example. Also, I think that examples should not be included in the definitions - they casue clutter and confusion, even if they were included as an attempt to clarify. Does this make sense? (Also I do think that whilst no doubt in use, some of the examples showed a slightly stereotypical way of categorising how gay people use these slang terms). I also really think your assumptions about Exploding Boys' sexuality, and about his intentions, are irrelevent and are clouding judgement of the actual work done. What matters here is an NPOV, not which actual POV is comes from (gay, straight, anywhere in between.)

Exploding Boy - you really should comment in your edit summary justification if you remove things, or if you wish at least post something about a radical change in th Talk page. Otherwise, your efforts, however well-intentioned, look arrogant and high-handed. Also the basis for the exclusion of assertion the term 'Eurofag' -"if you haven't heard it, it doesn't it exist" - is perplexingly non-NPOV. You have to accept that if someone has heard it in usage, then it deserves inclusion. No one person's experience makes up an article. Similarly - the 'turd=burglar', 'ass-bandit' and smiliar terms - maybe you have heard them said offensively, but I'm gay and use them, and I know lots of gay people who use them. THUS, they are gay slang and deserve inclusion, whatever your experience of them. Mince is in modern gay slang, whatever its origin, and thus deserves inclusion also.

On the matter of Gender transposition - the term is not gay slang, it is a term used to describe slang, and in order to resolve the arguement about its inclusion, I suggest a separate article on it, and links to that article in all Gender transposition terms in this article.

I'll go ahead with my proposed amalgamation, and hopefully instead of simply reverting it, you will both engage in actual compromise-making, and contribute to the actual article. -Erolos 14:04, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Side-note: AntsWiki - I maintained Exploding Boy's removal of this: (1870 Reynolds's Newsp. 29 May 5/5 We shall come in drag. 1870 London Figaro 23 June 3/4 Not quite so low as going about in ‘drag’. 1927 Sunday Express 13 Feb. 5/5 A drag is a rowdy party attended by abnormal men dressed in scanty feminine garments, singing jazz songs in high falsetto voices.) because it cluttered up the page. It is interesting and relevent information though, and I suggest it it is added into drag (clothing). What do you think? -Erolos 14:57, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Antswiki, I suggest you examine my contributions if you have questions about my intentions. You can start here. Exploding Boy 16:59, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)