Talk:Syunik Province

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2nd Millenium

Why there is no information about the region in the 2nd millenium?? I don't understand why after 1 millenium comes 20th century?? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tebriz (talk • contribs) 12:48, 18 May 2006.

Because it has to be mentioned that the region was part of various Turkic states, such as Ildegizids and Karabakh khanate, and had Turkic population. Apparently, those who wrote this article prefer to think that the region had no history for an entire millenium. Grandmaster 11:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Why not write about that instead of complaining? Create a section called Syunik under Turko-Mongol yoke or something.--Eupator 15:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Protected

I have protected this page. Please sort out your editing disputes before requesting unprotection. Please note that I will not change which version is protected, as neither version is blatantly wrong. —Mets501 (talk) 12:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Naming dispute

I have no problem with including the name Zangezur for historical purposes. I actually would not mind if we include the Azerbaijani translation of the name, now that I think about it. However, I would only agree to this if we include the Armenian, Russian, and Persian translations. Thus, the header would appear like so:

Syunik (also known as Siunik, Syunia, or Zangezur; Armenian: Սիւնիքը, Azerbaijani: Zəngəzur, Russian: Сюник, Persian: سیونیک) is one of the administrative regions of Armenia. It was a feudal principality in ancient Armenia. It is in the south-east of the country, bordering the region of Vayots Dzor to the north, Azerbaijan's Nakhichevan exclave to the west, the Azerbaijani rayons of Lachin, Qubadli, and Zangilan to the east, and Iran to the south. Its capital is Kapan. -- Clevelander 13:18, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would only agree to this if the matter of Turkish names on Greek islands and regions of modern Greece is settled in Wikipedia.--Eupator 14:04, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Clevelander, do you know Armenian? The Armenian spelling you have up there translates to "Syuniki," not Syunik. Unless you're going to add the word "marz" after Syuniki, you should just use "Syunik" like I had there before. Why do we use "Azerbaijani rayons," by the way? Why not just say the Nagorno-Karabakh republic? Hakob 20:34, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Admittedly, I have a basic understanding of Armenian, but I see what you mean and I've fixed my mistake. -- Clevelander 21:53, 15 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, Persian, Russian and even Turkish transliterations of the name are very much relevant to the article and should be included, the same way as we did in Nakhichevan. I see no problem there. Grandmaster 04:18, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The Greco-Turkish names have little relevance in this case. Turkish empire controlled Greece for centuries. There was no state of Azerbaijan that ever controlled Syunik. As for Turkish/Russian and other names--the region now is solidly in Armenia, has solid Armenian population, there is no reason to include transliterations by every single invador throughout history (or we would have to include Assyrian cuneiform inscriptions). This point is made clear in the Greco-Turkish naming discussion.--TigranTheGreat 03:42, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It was part of Azerbaijan Democratic Republic and had an Azeri governor Sultanov, reaffirmed by British. Then it was part of Az.SSR until transfered to Armenia. Grandmaster 04:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

While it was not part of the Azerbaijan SSR at any time in its history, Syunik (Zangezur) was indeed temporarily under the administration of the Azerbaijan Democratic Republic (ADR) during the British occupation of the region. This was part of a plan devised by Oliver Wardrop, British Chief Commissioner in the South Caucasus. According to Wardrop, Armenian claims against Azerbaijan should not go beyond the administrative borders of the former Erivan governorate (which included Nakhichevan), while Azerbaijan was to be limited to the provinces of Baku and Ganca (Elisavetpol). However, this proposal was rejected by both Armenians (who did not wish to give up their claims to Kazakh-Shamshadin (which even during British occupation remained under Armenian administration), Zangezur and Karabakh) and Azeris (who found it unacceptable to give up their claims to Nakhichevan).

In protest to the assignment of Nakhichevan to Armenia, Jafar Kuli Khan Nakhichevanski declared the Araks Republic. Armenian troops then invaded the region and thus the Araks War between Armenia and Azerbaijan began (though it was initally fought with the Araks state and later the ADR with encourgement from Ottoman forces invaded the region). In any case, after the British left, Zangezur came under stable control of Armenia by late March 1920 during more Armenian-Azeri clashes. [1] It is also worth mentioning that the region was a scene of conflict between Bolshevik and guerilla Armenian forces. [2] -- Clevelander 10:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Upon the Ottoman withdrawal, General Andranik made an attempt to extend Armenian rule over this disputed territory, but on December 1 Thomson asked him to cease his military operations. Furthermore, as of mid-January 1919, the British general put Nagorno-Karabagh together with the neighboring Zangezur uezd under provisional Azerbaijani administration. Armenian reactions became even more heated when Thomson confirmed the nomination of Khosrow Sultanov as governor of the two areas. Thomson's comment was that the British occupation was not an opportunity for revenge.

Tadeusz Swietochowski, Russia and Azerbaijan: A Borderland in Transition. ISBN 0231070683

This of course confirms Andrew Andersen's information that I just cited. -- Clevelander 12:38, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really sure. The above information can be found in many sources, including Armenian ones. Grandmaster 12:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Er, I don't follow you. What aren't you sure about? -- Clevelander 12:46, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure that it supports the whole text of Anderson to which you seem to be refering above, maybe only the part about this region. Grandmaster 12:54, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Andersen is a perfectly credible source and to be more specfic Swietochowski supports Andersen's claim that the British assigned Syunik and Karabakh to Azerbaijan. -- Clevelander 13:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So it is clear that Zangezur was under provisional Azerbaijani administration until Bolshevik takeover, when the Red Army occupied most of this region. Grandmaster 09:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, actually, before the Bolshevik invasion, control passed to the Armenians (in March 1918). Before that, however, both Zangezur and Nagorno-Karabakh were under provisional Azerbaijani administration as assigned by the British (just as they placed Nakhichevan under provisional Armenian administration). Of course, the Armenians in Zangezur and Karabakh did not want to be part of Azerbaijan and the Azeris in Nakhichevan did not want to be part of Armenia. This is where the conflict began. -- Clevelander 10:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

We can provide full details of that within the text of the article, but I think it is beyond any doubt the region was under the provisional administration of ADR for a certain period. So I suggest we request unprotection of this article and restore Azeri transliteration in the intro. Grandmaster 06:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Just because Tadeus says something, doesn't mean it's true. And even if British put it under Azeri administration (they didn't), doesn't mean it was under Azeri administration (much less under ADR's administration). It was disputed and remained so. And a few months of "Azeri administration" doesn't warrant inclusion of Azeri spelling. Urartuans had it much longer, doesn't mean we should include cuneiforms.--TigranTheGreat 22:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and here is Walker on how the British appointment of Sultanov was never materialized, and in fact was scratched by the British themselves:

However, the British were not so successful in installing their protégé south in the other highland region of Zangezur. They wanted to put him there to 'maintain order'. The Armenians retorted that there was order there, and by a policy of bluff, demonstrations and armed resistance, they were able to frighten Suttleworth into quitting Zangezur's capital Goris in a hurry, and successfully defying his fellow officers' decisions. Walker, Survival etc. p 272.--TigranTheGreat 22:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]