Talk:List of command and control abbreviations

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RSTA, STA, ISTAR, C4ISR, etc (disambig)

It seems to me that it's about time this article became a {{disambig}} point for the related articles, perhaps also RSTA. Thoughts? ... aa:talk 16:17, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think it'd be better if all the related articles were just redirects to here. It makes no sense to have many overlapping sets of these concepts described individually - it's silly to discuss (for example) Intelligence in both C4I and ISTAR. If the article gets too big, I'd vote for each of the individual concepts to have a page of their own with this article explaining the various ways they are grouped together. --Khendon 18:37, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically, RSTA is large enough to be its own article. I think some pieces of that article are redundant however, and could be discussed here. I also think that the mention of the C4ISR journal makes this more likely to be a dab page. Perhaps some sort of hybrid dab page, that indicates what each of the individual components of C4ISTAR are, with possible meanings below? It's kind of tough given the jargon soup out there. ... aa:talk 20:50, 6 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Could this and a few other articles be replaced by a general article about the history and practice of military command and control? The list of acronyms shouldn't be much more than a footnote. —Michael Z. 2006-08-07 19:36 Z

Some clean-up & merger seems to be required between this theme of acronyms. A simple merger will likely be inadequate. I propose discussion occur here. I am aware that these acronyms are used in US, UK, and Canadian militaries (and I assume within other NATO & ABCA militaries). However, the different militaries apply them differently and individual doctrines dictate if one will emphasize C3ISR or C4ISTAR, and if one will call it RISTA or ISTAR. -- MCG 03 Sept 06

I don't think so. RSTA needs to be its own article due to the large size and scope of it: RSTA units encompass tens of thousands of soldiers in the US Army, and it's a fundamental doctrine in modern maneuver combat. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 22:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I still belive it is appropriate. RSTA is not the unit, it is a function assigned to a unit (but a function that may be described stand alone). An RSTA Bn is the unit. Same within the Canadian military; ISTAR is not the sub unit but ISTAR Sqn is (and this function is typically filled by a recce sqn). Looking into the text of this article we can see that RSTA is this to also be true of RSTA: "Typically, a brigade/regiment designates one of its battalions/squadrons as a RSTA squadron."

Wrong. Please don't tell me RSTA is not a unit: I served in the 3/124th RSTA. RSTA is the name of the unit. I know firsthand what the definition of RSTA is. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 00:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I recognize that several of the articles I've recommended for merger serve as a single conduit to describe ISTAR/RSTA/STA functions & tasked units. I recommend that function portion of all these be merged into one article (otherwise we have much confusion all over). There can be seperate "RSTA Sqn" and "STA Bn" and etc articles particular to specific militaries.-- MCG 03 Sept 06

Why? the articles are fine as they are, and what you are suggesting is to combine two completely disparate things: one being a command and control intelligence doctrine, and one being a MTOE-designated type of unit and their maneuver doctrine. These are two different things by far. This is a completely useless merge. Do you want further proof? The STA page has this:

Surveillance and Target Acquisition is a term that can be applied to a number of similar military units and roles as follows:
* The Honourable Artillery Company (STA Patrol Regiment, Territorial Army) * Reconnaissance, Surveillance, and Target Acquisition (US Army) * STA Sniper (USMC) * Surveillance, Target Acquisition, Night Observation and Counter-surveillance Centre, Royal School of Artillery * 5 Regiment Royal Artillery (Surveillance and Target Acquisition) * 32 Regiment Royal Artillery (Surveillance and Target Acquisition – Unmanned Air Vehicles) * 204 (Tyneside Scottish) Battery Royal Artillery (Volunteers) (Surveillance and Target Acquisition) * 269 (West Riding) Battery Royal Artillery (Volunteers) (Surveillance and Target Acquisition)

5 of the 8 subjects that STA can refer to are ACTUAL UNITS! 1 of the 8 is an MOS in the USMC, a type of JOB. One of the 8 is a reference to a training school. And one of the 8 is reference to a type of squadron in the US Army. None of these have ANYTHING to do with C4ISTAR, which the page itself says refers to various informations based systems. Heres a hint: informations based systems do NOT equate to a named military squadron, a military MOS, a military squadron type, nor a military training center. Therefore there is no need for a merge with STA.

So we've now established beyond any reasonable doubt there is no need for a merge with STA. We can then extrapolate that there is no need for a merge with RSTA because RSTA is simply the US Army version of STA. Plus, there's support above from Avriette as well as myself that RSTA is definitively large enough for its own article.

So now we've established RSTA and STA are out. What you do with ISTAR and C4ISTAR is your business: those probably should be merged. But STA and RSTA refer to completely different things than ISTAR and C4ISTAR do.

So, once again, I'll be removing all references to RSTA and STA from the merge debate. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 00:41, 4 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

SWATJester, It disappoints me that you are conducting this debate in such bad faith. I marked the article as disputed merge (so that anyone with pertinent information could make it available). I suspect you are too emotionally attached (having created the RSTA article) and attempting to protect your territory. However, within my Army the term ISTAR is used to describe organizations that do exactly the same thing as the RSTA & STA organizations in your military. These terms describe a function. You were in the 3rd RSTA Squadron, 124th Cavalry. Note that the “RSTA” is qualified by the “Squadron” (even if it is implied in some written formats just as the qualifier after “Cavalry” is implied. This is why some form of rationalization needs to be done between all of these articles. -- MCG 03 Sept 06

What is real?

Which of these are actually widely used in military training or theory? It seems to me that C3I is a real abstraction of a military commander's problem. But "computers" are just a tool used in C3I (it's not like we had C2R "command, control and runners" replaced by C3IR "command, control, communications and radios"). Surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance are just ways of acquiring intelligence, no?

All get used, it just depends on which military one is referring too (and even which element within the military). I've even seem explanations that apply an acronym to a specific scale (ie: STAR or STANO are sub unit concerns, ISTAR & STANO are battle group concerns, etc). -- MCG 03 Sept 06