Talk:Manusmriti

Inaccurate quotation and interpretation of sources

A line in this article dealing with the caste system reads "As the son of a Shudra may attain the rank of a Brahmin if he were to possess his qualifications, character and accomplishments, and as the son of a Brahmin may become a Shudra, if he sinks to his level in his character, inclinations and manners even so must it be with him who springs from a Kshatriya; even so with him who is born of a Vaishya" (X: 65).The article then misinterprets this wrongly quoted statement to read "The aforesaid verse sanctions support for vocational caste system, contrary to popular belief that manu smriti supports hereditary caste system."

When I refered back to the source the line actually reads "65. (Thus) a Sudra attains the rank of a Brahmana, and (in a similar manner) a Brahmana sinks to the level of a Sudra; but know that it is the same with the offspring of a Kshatriya or of a Vaisya."

It may not be considered a big difference but crux lies in the context of the statement. The quotation it is obtained from the section dealing with the castes of the offspring of mixed caste marriages. It has nothing to do with the merit or character or inclinations. The interpretation in the article is wrong and should be removed.

Indiegirl 16:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You have committed WP:OR here. You have provided YOUR interpretation of the sentence and the context as supplied by YOU. Please provide a sourced article that explicitly states what you have stated. Until then, the normative context of the statement (in the article) stays. The bottom line is that the manusmriti does not expressly forbit intercaste marriages (otherwise yours truly wouldn't be born :) ), and even has dikta to that effect (as you yourself just stated), thus it is a misconception that caste exclusivity regarding breeding or nuptiality is mandaated expressly in the Manusmriti.Hkelkar 16:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

One thing though. There appears to be a discrepancy between the western translations and normative ones. For instance, The Stayarth Prakash translation (which I believe was in the 19th Century) of the original ManuSmriti in Sanskrit of the line (hope you have devanagari enabled) viz:

zUÔae äaü[tameit äaü[íEit zUÔtam!

]iÇyaj! jatmev< tu iv*adoe vEZyat! twEv c.

Reads: “As the son of a Sudra may attain the rank of a Brahmin if he were to possess his qualifications, character and accomplishments, and as the son of a Brahmin may become a Sudra, if he sinks to his level in his character, inclinations and manners, even so must it be with him who springs from a Kshatriya; even so with him who is born of a Vaishya. In other words, a person should be ranked with the Class whose qualifications, accomplishments, and character he possesses."

(translation from Stayarth Prakash, chapter 4, page 99).

The reference is here:

http://www.hindu-international.org/books/articles/varna_jaati_or_caste.pdf#search=%22As%20the%20son%20of%20a%20Shudra%20may%20attain%20the%20rank%20of%20a%20Brahmin%20if%20he%20were%20to%20possess%20his%20qualifications%22

See Page 14. I'll put up the link soon unless you have something to say...

Hkelkar 16:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

First thanks for the quotation. It should have been sourced to begin with.

Second, The source you quote from just has one sentence taken out of context. If you check the line by line translation in the original source the conext may matter for the translation/interpretation. It is added below.

64. If (a female of the caste), sprung from a Brahmana and a Sudra female, bear (children) to one of the highest caste, the inferior (tribe) attains the highest caste within the seventh generation. 65. (Thus) a Sudra attains the rank of a Brahmana, and (in a similar manner) a Brahmana sinks to the level of a Sudra; but know that it is the same with the offspring of a Kshatriya or of a Vaisya. 66. If (a doubt) should arise, with whom the preeminence (is, whether) with him whom an Aryan by chance begot on a non-Aryan female, or (with the son) of a Brahmana woman by a non-Aryan, 67. The decision is as follows: 'He who was begotten by an Aryan on a non-Aryan female, may become (like to) an Aryan by his virtues; he whom an Aryan (mother) bore to a non-Aryan father (is and remains) unlike to an Aryan.' 68. The law prescribes that neither of the two shall receive the sacraments, the first (being excluded) on account of the lowness of his origin, the second (because the union of his parents was) against the order of the castes. 69. As good seed, springing up in good soil, turns out perfectly well, even so the son of an Aryan by an Aryan woman is worthy of all the sacraments. 70. Some sages declare the seed to be more important, and others the field; again others (assert that) the seed and the field (are equally important); but the legal decision on this point is as follows: 71. Seed, sown on barren ground, perishes in it; a (fertile) field also, in which no (good) seed (is sown), will remain barren. 72. As through the power of the seed (sons) born of animals became sages who are honoured and praised, hence the seed is declared to be more important. 73. Having considered (the case of) a non-Aryan who acts like an Aryan, and (that of) an Aryan who acts like a non-Aryan, the creator declared, 'Those two are neither equal nor unequal.'

This is not about the morality of intercaste marriages. I have nothing to say on that matter. This is a matter of academic integity. As an academic I am tempted to use quotes out of context and transalated to suit my needs. But is it right?

Indiegirl 16:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

On the basis of which source do you contend that the Stayarth Prakash quote is false or "Taken out of context"? Are there any scholarly articles that explicitly refute the translation as out of context, or is it still original research on your part,which is disallowed on wikipedia?Hkelkar 16:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not my original research. Its common sense. I think that on a matter as controversial as this it may be good practise to quote atleast 2 translations of something that agree before it is put up on Wikipedia. Working on the caste system myself I was looking for a quote exactly like this which is why I checked the orginal sources. I would love to quote something like this to substantiate my claim but unless I can find a similar translation and context I will not use it. I was just trying to hold Wikipedia to the same standard. But if you do not agree that fine with me I have nothing to lose.

Indiegirl 17:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

well unsourced "Common Sense" does count as original research. If you have any publicatations in peer-reviewed journals that are specific to this matter then plz send me citations and I'll use my univ subscription to look at them. However, you can't add them in because that would be a violation of WP:AB. 17:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me that the quotation "Thus) a Sudra attains the rank of a Brahmana, and (in a similar manner) a Brahmana sinks to the level of a Sudra; but know that it is the same with the offspring of a Kshatriya or of a Vaisya." comes from a scholarly, peer reviewed, translation by Butler, which is listed at the bottom of Wikipedia article as external link. The quotation in the article, coming from website www.hindu-international.org is NOT a scholarly, peer reviewed article. In fact, God knows where this quotaion is coming from and who made it. It seems to me that it is the author who is committing WP:OR, not Indiegirl.

128.135.60.36 18:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's an extract from a well-known translation made by Indian scholars in the 19th Century. Not quoted by westerners for obvious reasons if you know the history of western attacks on the ManuSmriti.Hkelkar 19:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hkelkar, you're missing the point here completely. First: If you want to talk about peer-reviewed journal publications that I need to provide. Show me peer-reviewed journals that say your source has the right interpretation. The source I quote (The Laws of Manu, George Bühler, translator(Sacred Books of the East, Volume 25)) is used extensively in peer-reviewed journals. Do a search on Google Scholar to check. I can add the quote to "71. Seed, sown on barren ground, perishes in it; a (fertile) field also, in which no (good) seed (is sown), will remain barren. 72. As through the power of the seed (sons) born of animals became sages who are honoured and praised, hence the seed is declared to be more important." to say the Manu Smriti advocates the hereditary nature of the caste system. I'm sure you'll say right now show me a peer review journal article to support that interpretation. To which I say show me a peer-reviewed article that supports the interpretation in the article right now.

Second, if you read the discussion on this page it seems like people are taking issue with the translation. These can be circumvented to a certain degree by using quotations from translations which have atleast 2 different sources with have similar views. The point of Wikipedia is to be as unbiased as possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RS#Check_multiple_sources I'm simply following Wikipedia's guidelines

I think you need to read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:RS again. Indiegirl 18:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, we can always compromise and indicate that the quote has two different translations from two different sources if you want. Though there are many editors involved here (see history, I'm only a minor nook-and-cranny editor of this article) and perhaps we should wait for them to chime in. I think your background works against me (I'm only an experimental physicist) so we need another religious scholar (I may know some who are wikipedia editors) to offer a perspective on the debate.Hkelkar 19:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hkelkar, I wanted to verify your qoute from Dayananda. I belive it is incorrect to treat this qoute as a translation. If you read this chapter, you will notice that Dayananda does not translate the original text exactly, but rather interprets it. (Or, at least, it is completely not clear to me, when is he doing one thing rather than the other. For example, the previous qoutation is discussed, line 31/11, is described first as a "direct translation" and then "correct interpretation.) The whole section "caste by Merit" is constructed in this way.

I want to be careful here - I am not saying that his interpretation is incorrect, but this is interpretation and should be quoted as such; and not as a translation from the source.

I think that it was not Dayananda goal to translate Manusmriti from Sanskrit, but rather to explain it. This is, by the way, what he says "The chief object of writing this book is to bring the correct interpretation of Vedic Sources in vogue." (Preface, 2nd page). Now, there is a question, whether the article on Manusmriti should contain quotations from the Manusmriti or describe the interpretations. I belive that both are interesting and important for our understanding of the text, but they must be clearly separated. As far as I understand the discusion below, this issue has already appeared and was resolved by removing excerpts from Ambredkar.

Also, I am not sure whether "Western attacks on Manu Smriti" is not too general argument to be true. If you are willing, please be clear what you mean. Is Buhler's translation biased? If so, is the following translation biased?

http://www.amazon.com/Code-Manu-Oxford-Worlds-Classics/dp/0192802712/sr=1-1/qid=1157587143/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-7162262-6307103?ie=UTF8&s=books

I haven't read this one, so can't say for sure, but Buhler's translation has errors, likely deliberate ones.Hkelkar 00:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

How should I distinguish between unbiased and biased translation? It is hard for me to believe that there is no modern good scholarly work on such an important text. I would prefer to use modern text, if possible. The modern translations, if they are good, should make use of recent scholarship in linguistics, history, sociology, and so on, which was not available to people in XIXth century.

128.135.96.17 23:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

True, there is a problem as Westerners refuse to regard Hindu renditions of their own scripture as correct. For some reason (actually I know the reason), they regard their understanding of Hindu scripture to be better than Hindu religious scholars. Like I said before, let's wait for a few days until other users involved with this article say something, purely as a matter of courtesy. This is a highly controversial issue and a highly controversial debate.Hkelkar 00:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'll wait, but notice that you are not answering to my questions, but again repeating general statement about Westerners. Are we here in business of writing an objective article in Wikipedia or protecting it from Westerners?

128.135.96.17 00:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Not at all. My view is we should cite both statements from both sources, "scholarly" and normative interpretation (if you prefer not to consider it to be a translation) regarding the section of the ManuSmriti in question with the appropriate qualification. However, more knowledgeable parties may have more to say.

Hkelkar 00:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Couple of quick points-- what makes your source the normative source? Can you give me one source that has something negative to say about the Buhler? Are you seriously contending that Indians have no reason to mistranslate but westerners do? I'm interested in this issue of western versus `normative' translations of the Manu Smriti. Any sources on this would be appreciated as I can't find any. Is this editorial process supposed to be unbiased or subject to people's own views of what they consider right. If you are not an expert on this please wait till the experts weigh in before you pass judgment on what you consider the right source or your own views on western translations of the manu smriti.

Indiegirl 01:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

A Horribly biased article

This article is a classic example of "quote mining" as part of a deliberate agenda of defaming Hindus.By selectively citing various passages from the Manusmriti, polemicists have sought to demonstrate that Hinduism espouses hatred for gentiles (and specifically for Dalits), and promotes obscenity, sacrificial perversion, and other similar behavior. To make these passages serve their purposes, these polemicists (mostly British scholars from the era of the vile British Raj) frequently mistranslate them or cite them out of context (wholesale fabrication of passages is not unknown)...

In distorting the normative meanings of Brahminic texts, anti-Manusmriti writers frequently remove passages from their textual and historical contexts. Even when they present their citations accurately, they judge the passages based on contemporary moral standards, ignoring the fact that the majority of these passages were composed close to two thousand years ago by people living in cultures radically different from our own. They are thus able to ignore Hinduism's long history of social progress and paint it instead as a primitive and parochial religion.

Those who attack the Manusmriti frequently cite ancient Brahminic sources without noting subsequent developments in Hindu thought, and without making a good-faith effort to consult with contemporary Hindu authorities who can explain the role of these sources in normative Hindu thought and practice.

This article needs to be edited from absolute scratch.(Netaji 11:20, 19 July 2006 (UTC))

the article is an understatement. No words are enough to condemn Manusmriti. Instead of trying to defend it using all kinds of excuses, User Netaji's "contemperory hindu authorities" should come ahead to condemn it. Manusmriti is the only religious scripture in the world which has been burned in Public several times.--Yeditor 13:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude, where do you get this nonsense anyway? Care to cite sources? The Talmud has been burnt in public more times by anti-semites in Europe than any other holy scripture in history.Netaji 23:32, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The Rig Veda is a higher authority than Manusmriti and the RV states "Among men none is big or small. All are equal and brothers. All should strive for the highest temporal and eternal glory." (RV. 5-60.5). Hindus are waking up to the fact that this socio-economic phenomenon should be dropped and it is dying out, albeit a very slow death. In the most communalized state in India, (Gujarat), intercaste marriages are the norm and the VHP & RSS protect dalits from Muslim and Christian attacks. The leader of BJP a few years ago was a dalit (Bangaru Laxman), as is the most firebrand Hindutva speaker (Uma Bharati). Bakaman _Bakatalk 17:43, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Vickman 06:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)Bold textThis is a response to all the nonsense below. The fact of the matter is that manusmriti lays down the social law of the time. Nothing to be ashamed of. No worse than the Koran and Mohammad and his 4 or 5 or 10 wives or begums. Also, nothing to be ashamed or apologise for. All you may reasonably expect in the wikipedia is a factual rendition of its translation and social context.

Ambedkar

I am pasting the relevant test from Babasaheb Ambedkars book, "Revolution and Counter Revolution in India". this is essential to understand the date of writing of the Manusmriti

""""It (Buddhism) did not remain as one of the many diverse religions then in vogue. Ashoka made it the religion of the state. This of course was the greatest blow to Brahmanism. The Brahmins lost all state partonage and were neglected to a secondary and subsidiary position in the Empire of Ashoka.

Indeed it may be said to have been suppressed for the simple reason that Ashoka prohibited all animal sacrifices which constituted the very essence of Brahmanic Religion.

The Brahmins had not only lost state partonage but they lost their occupation which mainly consisted in performing sacrifices for a fee which often times was very substantial and which constituted their chief source of living. The Brahmins therefore lived as the suppressed and Depressed Classes2 [f58] for nearly 140 years during which the Maurya Empire lasted.

A rebellion against the Buddhist state was the only way of escape left to the suffering Brahmins and there is special reason why Pushyamitra should raise the banner of revolt against the rule of the Mauryas. Pushyamitra was a Sung by Gotra.

The Sungas were Samvedi Brahmins,3[f59] who believed in animal sacrifices and soma sacrifices. The Sungas were therefore quite naturally smarting under the prohibition on animal sacrifices throughout the Maurya Empire proclaimed in the very Rock Edict by Ashoka.

No wonder if Pushyamitra who as a Samvedi Brahmin was the first to conceive the passion to end the degradation of the Brahmin by destroying the Buddhist state which was the cause of it and to free them to practise their Brahmanic religion.

That the object of the Regicide by Pushyamitra was to destroy Buddhism as a state religion and to make the Brahmins the sovereign rulers of India so that with the political power of the state behind it Brahmanism may triumph over Buddhism is borne out by two other circumstances.

The first circumstance relates to the conduct of Pushyamitra himself. There is evidence that Pushyamitra after he ascended the throne performed the Ashvamedha Yajna or the horse sacrifice, the vedic rite which could only be performed by a paramount sovereign. As Vincent Smith observes :

"The exaggerated regard for the sanctity of animal life, which was one of the most cherished features of Buddhism, and the motive of Ashoka's most characterisitic legislation, had necessarily involved the prohibition of bloody sacrifices, which are essential to certain forms of Brahmanical worship, and were believed by the orthodox to possess the highest saving efficacy. The memorable horse sacrifices of Pushyamitra marked an early stage in the Brahmanical reaction, which was fully developed five centuries later in the time of Samudragupta and his successors."

Then there is evidence that Pushyamitra after his accession launched a violent and virulent campaign of persecution against Buddhists and Buddhism.

How pitiless was the persecution of Buddhism by Pushyamitra can be gauged from the Proclamation which he issued against the Buddhist monks. By this proclamation Pushyamitra set a price of 100 gold pieces on the head of every Buddhist monk. [f60]

Dr. Haraprasad Shastri speaking about the persecution of Buddhists under Pushyamitra says[f61]  :

"The condition of the Buddhists under the imperial sway of the Sungas, orthodox and bigotted, can be more easily imagined than described. From Chinese authorities it is known that many Buddhists still do not pronounce the name of Pushyamitra without a curse."

II

If the Revolution of Pushyamitra was a purely political revolution there was no need for him to have launched a compaign of persecution against Buddhism which was not very different to the compaign of persecution launched by the Mahamad of Gazni against Hinduism. This is one piece of circumatantial evidence which proves that the aim of Pushyamitra was to overthrow Buddhism and establish Brahmanism in its place.

Another piece of evidence which shows that the origin and purpose of the revolution by Pushyamitra against the Mauryas was to destroy Buddhism and establish Brahmanism is evidenced by the promulgation of Manu Smriti as a code of laws.

The Manu Smriti is said to be divine in its origin. It is said to be revealed to man by Manu to whom it was revealed by the Swayambhu (i.e. the Creator). This claim, as will be seen from the reference already made to it, is set out in the Code itself. It is surprizing that nobody has cared to examine the grounds of such a claim. The result is that there is a complete failure to realise the significance, place and position of the Manu Smriti in the history of India. This is true even of the historians of India although the Manu Smriti is a record of the greatest social revolution that Hindu society has undergone. There can however be no doubt that the claim made in the Manu Smriti regarding its authorship is an utter fraud and the beliefs arising out of this false claim are quite untenable.

The name Manu had a great prestige in the ancient history of India and it is with the object to invest the code with this ancient prestige that its authorship was attributed to Manu. That this was a fraud to deceive people is beyond question. The code itself is signed[f62] in the family name of Bhrigu as was the ancient custom. "The Text Composed by Bhrigu (entitled) "The Dharma Code of Manu" is the real title of the work. The name Bhrigu is subscribed to the end of every chapter of the Code itself. We have therefore the family name of the author of the Code. His personal name is not disclosed in the Book. All the same it was known to many. The Author of Narada Smriti writing in about the 4th Century A.D. knew the name of the author of the Manu Smriti and gives out the secret. According to Narada it was one Sumati Bhargava who composed the Code of Manu. Sumati Bhargava is not a legendary name, and must have been historical person for even Medhatithe[f63] the great commentator on the Code of Manu held the view that this Manu was 'a certain individual'. Manu therefore is the assumed name of Sumati Bhargava who is the real author of Manu Smriti.

When did this Sumati Bhargava compose this Code? It is not possible to give any precise date for its composition. But quite a precise period during which it was composed can be given. According to scholars whose authority cannot be questioned Sumati Bhargava must have composed the Code which he deliberately called Munu Smriti between 170 B.C. and 150 B.C. Now if one bears in mind the fact that the Brahmanic Revolution by Pushyamitra took place in 185 B.C. there remains no doubt that the code known as Manu Smriti was promulgated by Pushyamitra as embodying the principles of Brahmanic Revolution against the Buddhist state of the Mauryas. That the Manu Smriti forms the Institutes of Brahmanism and are a proof that Pushyamitra Revolution was not a purely personal adventure will be clear to any one who cares to note the following peculiarities relating to the Manu Smriti."""" http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/19B.Revolution%20and%20Counter%20Rev.in%20Ancient%20India%20PART%20II.htm#a7

The bit where the manusmriti is dated as being composed around 200BCE has no references and seems to be a ridiculously late date. While it is a fact that the greek invaded around that time, most of the tribes mentioned there are said to have been exiled from the northwestern parts of Afghanistan - this is recorded in the Puranas. So the justification for the date (200 BCE) is no more tenable than my claim. Until a solid reference based on proper historical research (as opposed to historical conjecture) is given, the chronology should be removed.

Praise & criticism

I have added complete senctions on praise and criticism, with a large number of references. Now please don't delete them, because they conform to the neutrality point of view of wikipedia, whereas I see others cooking up their own facts and posting only them. If someone loves Manu Smriti so much, he may go to Hell, I have no problem. If you revert my edits, I am going to re-revert them back. Cygnus_hansa 08:23, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

• • NEW** Wow! This article is so hopelessly biased and off-track now it should just be deleted and rewriten from scratch. Let's have facts not just anger.

"The relationship between a teacher and a student is highly respected[citation needed]." - No wonder you couldnt find any citation. You pervert.

Whoever you are, anonymous, you are very wicked. The very statement you question above--was already proven by the references (about student-teacher) given below. And why do you question my edits--do you consider them pro-Manusmriti or anti-Manusmriti? I have tried to synthesize both views. Let the praise and criticism references remain as they are, to conform to NPOV. The other parts of the article definitely need revamp. Cygnus_hansa 19:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

hi to whoever wrote this article! just want to check where you got the 200 BCE date from. I have the Muller text and it doesn't say anything about the period in which it was written 202.156.6.54 16:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)Reul

I agree to people here objecting to the dates given, they are arbitrary. One most important thing which seems to have been left out is the problem of interpolations. Manusmriti was a prime candiate for that. Mention of Vishnu in Vedas also could be one. Aupmanyav 11:02, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I erased the praise section because somebody erased the critism section. Praise without critism violoates NPOV; either have both or neither.

Screwed up status

I think its best to scrap what B. R. Ambedkar said. On the other hand, the article seems to be filled ALL over with criticism, so there is no real need of a section. Opinion of B.R.Ambedkar absolutely has no place here if you ask me, but rather should be placed in amby's article itself at a max

What do you expect for something as dirty as Manusmriti. a garland of flowers?. Dont you know that this book has been burnt in public several times--Yeditor 11:48, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Again with the nonsense? See above.Netaji 23:33, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Completely non-neutral

This page seems to have been hijacked by people with a (possibly) genuine grevience against Manusmriti. It shows only the point of view of one section of people. But, that has no place on wikipedia if it is supposed to be neutral. This page should probably be rewitten from scratch.

I agree that this is non-neutral

This page has to be edited and made more neutral. It gives a biased view that is based on commentary from anti-manu people.

This article is utterly chaotic, evidently the victim of edit wars.Paul B 14:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Concurring Opinion

Did anyone notice that this article simply goes on about how the caste system is a way of subjugating those born into "lower" castes? What about the other things that are in the Manusmriti? Like sexuality, for example? This article takes a negative tone about the entire works and does not consider it as a whole.

Excellent Article

The article is very good. It tells about the manusmriti as it is. It should not be changed. --RaviS 06:22, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

---

No..... it doesn't. You're against manusmriti and that proves nothing. Manusmrti might support slavery, so does Bible. It doesn't promote equality of women, nor caste system. Caste system in manusmrti says, man is born as a shudra and will have to ascend to other castes. It says women should serve men, but when man doesn't treate her equally, she has all rights to leave him and re-marry. Leafy

The article is just way too flawed and overly biased. Leafy

the article is excellent though it has been vandalised by some racists. I dont understand how any one can be pro manusmriti.--Yeditor 11:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Who are the "racists"? Bakaman _Bakatalk 23:12, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Good Gods. Yeditor yahaan bhi a gaya? Arre bhai kuch to karo jo Hinduon ke prati vitrishna na dikhayen.Netaji 23:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not pro-manusmriti, I just know you are using this as a back-door to mess with other Hinduism articles. I regard manusmrii as one mans book, nothing more. It was exploited by MUslims and western imperialists to defame Hinduism, when I can write my own smriti and call it bakasmriti. Otherwise Ramayan and Gita are good enough. Bakaman _Bakatalk 18:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Please sign

Participants, please sign. You have come to wikipedia to edit that does not mean that you have got all the liberty to make the place untidy. --Bhadani 15:39, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Somehow, I reached this page, and found a lot of wastage of time and resources of Wikipedia Foundation. In case, users and editors continue to indulge in such childish play, I am afraid that we shall never become the Best. --Bhadani 15:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Warning

Please be warned that mis-edits to this page to undermine the integrity of wikipedia shall be dealt with promptly, and this should be treated as a common warning and notice to vandals. No separate warning or notice of block may be given, as vandals do not deserve them. Such notices are meant for genuine editors who may err whiile editing, and not for those who err with intention. --Bhadani 15:52, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Reading a Book

I'm reading the following book that I got from the library at UT Austin:

"Manu Smriti: A Sociological Analysis" --Deepali Bhargava

Rawat Publications, Jaipur

I'll clean up this article once I'm done (will take a couple of weeks). Netaji 01:10, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Deepali Bhargava looks like a relative of "Sumati Bhargava" the man who wrote Manusmriti. Uff. more cleaning will be required once you are through--Yeditor 11:39, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

And some reporting as well.Netaji 23:35, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

LolBakaman _Bakatalk 23:38, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Object

I had edited this page yesterday, but it is gone. To start with let me propose that hindu mythology doesn't say that Manu is forefather of "human race", it is (wo)man . the race word should be omitted.

Can the person who has added a story on Pushymitra reply on why is such interpretation is important to be included here, if not for derogatory purposes. Historians have been saying all sorts of things, of how fair skinned aryans invaded the dravidians, and that is all about the roots and everything that sprang from it. Such stuff should be edited out from hinduism pages, instead be contained in history pages.

No untouchables were there in manu's varna vyavastha

untouchables were not there in original varna vyavastha by manu. he just mentiones four classes. shudras are altoghether different from untouchables. (i have the newspaper cutting, if u want the source). the origins of untouchables are from around 1500AD with the advent of city culture. before that, the towns were too small and people could go to the fields for the call of nature. dalits are fifth varna and wrongly clubbed in the fourth in this article. nids 17:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

this can be best summed up as SC's being dalits or untouchables while most OBCs are shudras. shudras include professions like luhar, sunar, nai,badai or other jobs involving physical power,(barring warrior clans).nids 18:13, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Could you please edit your contribution into the article? Thanks.Netaji 21:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Need to write manusmriti

I found the below passage under the topic " The need to Write Manusmriti" As can be seen that its completely POV, OR and unencyclopaedic. It does not even pertain to the topic underwhich it has been pasted. It deserves deletion Yeditor 08:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

"One common defence of these passages is that they are being quoted out of context. What needs mentioning that critics of the ManuSmriti, in distorting the normative meanings of Brahminic texts, frequently remove passages from their textual and historical contexts as part of a deliberate campaign of Quote Mining. Even when they present their citations accurately, they judge the passages based on contemporary moral standards, ignoring the fact that the majority of these passages were composed thousands of years ago by people living in cultures radically different from contemporary India. They are thus able to ignore Hinduism's long history of social progress , tolerance and pluralism and paint it instead as a primitive and parochial religion.

It is also notable that Hinduism, does not have a highly organized ordained hierarchy of clergy (there is no centralized religious figure, though there are many Acharya-s, Baba-s and Guru-s with limited following). A counter-criticism from this website condemns the British colonialists to have made the world to regard the Manu Smriti as the supreme law book of the Hindus, so that they could ridicule the Hindu dharma and denigrate those of Indian origin.

Those who attack the Manusmriti frequently cite ancient Brahminic sources without noting subsequent developments in Hindu thought, and without making an effort to consult with contemporary Hindu authorities who can explain the role of these sources in normative Hindu beliefs.

There are 2,031 laws of Manu."

Article rewrite?

I can try make a total article rewrite sticking to a neutral point of view, however I wish to know if there are restrictions for performing major edits and the like. It will, however, take me some time to collect the necessary data. --Leafy 13:02, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Well I'm presently reading some textual analyses on the Manusmriti (as well as the Manusmriti itself), but I'd welcome anyone who has a genuine interest in NPOV-fying the article. Bear in mind that Anti-Manusmrriti accusations have a long history dating back to the early evangelization by Christian missionaries like St Francis Xavier when the associates of his Inquisition in Goa attempted to defame Hindus and their religion and try to humanize their genocide. The early material compiled by hateful preachers and racist British writers remain the basis of all subsequent accusations against the Manusmriti. Some are true, most are false and based on quotations taken out of context, and some are total fabrications. On the Internet today we can find many of these old accusations being rehashed... Netaji 23:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

When i say neutral point of view, i *do* mean that i shall stick to the positive character of manusmrti - because manusmrti is infamous, to say the least. I have a good collection of positive points of manusmrti, however major rewrite is my question — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leaflord (talk • contribs)

Please sign your comments leaflord. Bakaman _Bakatalk 16:04, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that... --Leafy 21:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Its ok, but I like to know which users are balanced. A balanced user like you with good knowledge of the subject is a user that needs to be commended.Bakaman _Bakatalk 21:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've noted the quotes from manusmrti to be different in case of dayananda compared to those of western translators. I'm sticking to the ones by Dayananda, because they're much more humane to say the least. Western translators never gave us good ones in the first place..— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leaflord (talk • contribs)

Good note. I don't trust "linguists" either. I'd rather trust a five year old Brahmin than a western "scholar"Bakaman _Bakatalk 17:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Quotes pertaining to Women

I've not pertained to any quotes from western translations, but only stuck to ones by Dayananda in his work Satyarth Prakash, these quotes mainly discussing the status of women.

education of girls Manu says:- "The State should make it compulsory for all to send their children of both sexes to school at the said* period and keep them there for the said period till they are thoroughly well-educated. It should be made a penal offence to break this law. In other words, let no child - whether a girl or a boy - be allowed to stay in the house after the 8th year; let him remain in the seminary till his Samaavartana time, [i.e. the period of Return home] and let no one be allowed to marry before that." MANU 7:152.

marriage "Let a maid wait for three years after she has begun to menstruate and then let her choose for herself a husband, who is her equal." MANU 9:90

This suggests that the age a woman should get married at is 16 years above.

remarriage No translations support widow remarriage. They however support niyoga, which is a contract made by a widow and widower to progenate children for continuing the family line. "If a husband dies, a wife can contract for niyoga. "If a husband deserts his wife, she may marry another." (Manu, chapter IX, verse 77).

In the wiki article "Women in Hinduism" it says that manusmrti allows a woman to divorce a husband of bad-conduct.

status of women "If the husband does not please his wife, she being unhappy, the whole family is unhappy and miserable; but if the wife be quite contended with her husband, the whole family enjoys felicity." MANU 3: 62.

"Let women be always propitiated (worshipped) by their fathers and brothers, by their husbands and the brothers of their husbands, in other words, they should speak sweetly to them and provide them with good food, nice clothes and ornaments, and thereby keep them happy. Those who seek great prosperity and happiness should never inflict pain on women." MANU 3: 55.

"Where women are honored (worshipped), in that family great men are born; but where they are not honored, there all acts are fruitless. Where women pass their days in misery and sorrow because of the misdeed (such as adultery) of their husbands that family soon entirely perishes, but where they are happy because of the good conduct of their husbands, the family continually prospers." MANU 3: 56, 57

"Let women, therefore, be always honored by being given presents of clothes an ornaments, and supplied with good food at festivals, jubilees and he like occasions, and thereby made happy by those men who are desirous of wealth and prosperity." MANU 3: 59

caste system "As the son of a Shoodraa may attain the rank of a Braahmanif he were to possess his qualifications, character and accomplishments, and as the son of a Braahman may become a Shoodraa, if he sinks to his level in his character, inclinations and manners even so must it be with him who springs from a Kshatriya; even so with him who is born of a Vaishya. In other words, a person should be ranked with the Class whose qualifications, accomplishments and character he possesses." MANU 10: 65.

--Leafy 00:15, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The reason we will do best to ignore western translations is mainly because of a quote in their version of translations itself:

"For choosing your course of conduct at any time and place, keep in view the instructions given first in Sruti (Vedas), then in Smritis, Itihaas (History of great personalities) and finally you act according to your conscience." (Manu Smriti, 11, 6). Verses of manusmriti are not only opposed to vedas, but self-contradictory suggesting both self-refutal of translations and tampering of the scripture.

Some of the contradictions are -

1)Child Marriage --

(9.90) "Three years let a damsel wait, though she be marriageable[no age is suggested anywhere for a woman preceding this line, thus it pertains to menstruation of the woman]; but after that time let her choose for herself a bridegroom (of) equal (caste and rank)"

Now look at the upcoming line:

(9.94) A man, aged thirty years, shall marry a maiden of twelve who pleases him, or a man of twenty-four a girl eight years of age; if (the performance of) his duties would (otherwise) be impeded, (he must marry) sooner.

A girl starts her menstruation approximately at age of 12, thus this line develops a contradiction - let alone an 8 year old child...

2)Education of Women --

This is a bit tricky, yet should be understood clearly.

(2.27) By burnt oblations during "^" pregnancy, by the Gatakarman (the ceremony after birth), the Kauda (tonsure), and the Maungibandhana (the tying of the sacred girdle of Munga grass) is the taint, derived from both parents, removed from twice-born men

It is strange to say a girl of 8 year old can perform an oblation. Thus at the "^" point the words "the mother's" were inserted, so as to try make harmony. But the problem comes from the following lines:

(9.85) "If twice-born men wed women of their own and of other (lower castes), the seniority, honour, and habitation of those (wives) must be (settled) according to the order of the castes (varna)"

Women however should be prohibited from education:

(9.18) "For women no (sacramental) rite (is performed) with sacred texts, thus the law is settled; women (who are) destitute of strength and destitute of (the knowledge of) Vedic texts, (are as impure as) falsehood (itself), that is a fixed rule."

Verse (1.88) shows brahmins are those who are educated in vedas, the two lines contradicting each other.

(2.240) "Excellent wives, learning, (the knowledge of) the law, (the rules of) purity, good advice, and various arts may be acquired from anybody."

All scriptures bearing knowledge at times of composition of manu smriti were vedic.

3) Independence of Women --

(9.3) "Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence." This verse is infact pretty famous. But one should read the surrounding verses, which destroy the total meaning:

(9.2) "Day and night woman must be kept in dependence by the males (of) their (families), and, if they attach themselves to sensual enjoyments, they must be kept under one's control." This verse simply doesn't make sense. If they're not to have freedom, then where does the question of sensual enjoyment come into the picture? It is clear that this verse recommends force to bind women freedom. (9.10) However says one cannot guard wife completely by force. All in all, the explanation is too confusing.

As for caste system, no verse supports hereditary basis. The partiality towards brahmins, i address through this -

(1.88) "To Brahmanas he assigned teaching and studying (the Veda), sacrificing for their own benefit and for others, giving and accepting (of alms)"

This line also contradicts the following line (9.317) "A Brahmin, whether learned or ignorant, is a powerful divinity." A brahmin who is learned cannot be ignorant. They are not saying "wise" or "fool", for this is clear in this translation. The self contradictory nature cannot be explained.

As for the partiality of punishment upon brahmins -- through scriptures and verifiable sources it is clear that majority of brahmins were poor (it is only in pre-independence era that brahmins were "rich and racist") other than a few jamindars (landlords) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leaflord (talk • contribs)

Article Rewritten

Based on the quotes i've posted in the preceding comment, I have rewritten some parts of the article to represent a partly positive - if not neutral - point of view. I have also purged the quotations from works of B. R. Ambedkar and have instead put the gist in the 'views of manusmriti' section. --Leafy 11:43, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice work leafy?

this is pov

"Hinduism, does not have a highly organized ordained hierarchy of clergy (there is no centralized religious figure, though there are many Acharya-s, Baba-s and Guru-s with limited following). A counter-criticism from this website condemns the British colonialists to have made the world to regard the Manu Smriti as the supreme law book of the Hindus, so that they could ridicule the Hindu dharma and denigrate those of Indian origin.""

Hindusim has a well defined clergy. they are called Bhramins and their roles. All ceremonies and worship is officiated by them. Their role is transmitted by birth. There is no example in the world of a person who has become and accepted as a bhramin. If this is not well defined clergy then what is?Yeditor 12:33, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Vamadeva Shashtri, Baba Ramdev, Satya Sai Baba, Amma Amritayandayi (totally botched spelling). They were not born Brahmins but they are now. Stop putting POV garbage on the page. If I wrote the article, I would say it is merely one man's treatise on how things could be run, nothing more. And the majority of priests and swamis (especially in USA/Canada/elsewhere) are not of brahmin origin.Bakaman _Bakatalk 15:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

What the hell is this if not POV

""Those who attack the Manusmriti frequently cite ancient Brahminic sources without noting subsequent developments in Hindu thought, and without making an effort to consult with contemporary Hindu authorities who can explain the role of these sources in normative Hindu beliefs."" Yeditor 12:36, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Its only POV if you wish to defame Hinduism.Bakaman _Bakatalk 15:37, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, I have fixed that quote and made it more encyclopaedic. Leafy 23:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeditor, if you're not accustomed to hinduism then please refrain from touching the pages :) I'm well aware of the so-called "well defined hierarchial clergy" - if you're unaware of the facts like very few "brahmins" actually become clergy, then refrain from entering your rants.. Leafy 22:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It is well accepted by all of the hindu community that manu smriti is for satya yuga and a smriti is needed for modern times. This fact was revealed in puraanas as well as dharma sastras. It is not an allegation - it is a fact. Leafy 22:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Racism

The article is far from truth. This proves that wikipedia is overtaken by white racists and hateful hindu of uppercaste who want to suppress the holocaust of low caste people. Kunal

No its being taken over by anon vandals who hate brahmins and HinduismBakaman _Bakatalk 02:19, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

When the manu smriti was made in 2nd century AD and people dont even FOLLOW manu smriti properly, half of hindus today dont knwo about it - in earlier days, just a bout a handful knew. Lets not forget that all acharyas of the old days fought for the rights of these so-called low caste people. Nowhere in manu smriti does it support hereditary caste system. This shows that the suppression has not stemmed from manu smriti. Half the people out there haven't even read manu smriti other than ridiculous quote mining - read the post above kunal, you'll know how ridiculous these translations are. 58.68.75.66 07:20, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Sources

Please cite sources. PLEASE. OTherwise certain users will vandalize the page calling it OR.Bakaman _Bakatalk 03:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Critical Quotes

The article being devoid of critical quotes, considering the fact that manu smriti is the controversial (why WAS it brought to highlight when no one followed it???) scripture; i request wikipedians to post some critical quotes in this thread so that they can be inserted into the article. Leafy 06:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Critical quotes should be mentioned with the qualification that they are WESTERN translations of Sanskrit texts and that the accuracy of most of those translations are disputed.Hkelkar 07:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Plz justify they are WESTERN translations of Sanskrit texts and that the accuracy of most of those translations are disputed. HW  10:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

@indiegirl

Nowhere have i said that it sanctions support for inter-caste marriages or so - there has been no manipulation or trash. The verse clearly says that a brahman can sink to level of shudra and vice versa - and no verse in manu smrti supports any stance of birth declaring the caste. To stick to direct translation of a verse is wrong - this is what leads to quote-mining; one has to study the whole context before making any such lines. I suggest you do this too - and not stick to understanding it verse-to-verse; but note down the important declarations and compare them. I've already demonstrated above that limited perception of the translations will lead to failure of reasoning and are misleading. Thus there is no need to scrap it. Leafy 13:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This is completely ridiculous. There is a clear difference between a translation and an interpretation. If you want to quote the text, then you quote it. If you are worried that qoutation maybe misunderstood, you supply it with a comment. But remember - this is encyclopedia, it is suppose to serve as a source of facts. It is not your job, as an editor, to worry about what the reader will do with the facts.

Please advice me, since he cannot, what distinguisheds the good translatiopn from the bad one. And please bear in mind the difference between translation and commentary.

128.135.153.67 13:58, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I strongly second this and want to add 1) i didn't say the manu smriti sanctions support for inter-caste marriages, hkelkar did, bringing his own personal perspective in saying he would not be born otherwise which has ABSOLUTELY NO bearing on the discussion, except to reveal his personal biases which as an editor he should not bring into play 2) i talked about inter-caste marriages because of the context the quote was taken from. if you read the context in the direct translation by Buhler (i'm still waiting for a source to say its a biased one) the quote comes from a section that says what the law is on children born from intercaste intercourse. the section says if a child is born of a shudra mother and a brahmin father he will attain the caste of a brahmin in 7 generations. if on the other hand he is of a shudra father and a brahmin mother he will be a shudra. it says NOTHING about abilty determining castes except to say the `seed' i.e. father's quality determines the quality of the son. see "Having considered (the case of) a non-Aryan who acts like an Aryan, and (that of) an Aryan who acts like a non-Aryan, the creator declared, 'Those two are neither equal nor unequal." 3) If any one is quote mining it is you. by taking a verse out of context and relying on someone's interpretation of it which may be biased because it suits your needs is quote mining. waiting for your response Indiegirl 15:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC) Relying on buhler's translations is the main mistake - read the posts above; his translations are such that the translated verse generates paradox with the already translated ones generating a paradox. Leafy 17:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)