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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kevehs (talk | contribs) at 08:11, 16 November 2004 (→Non-US libertarians (of the non-socialist sort)). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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A Response to the Negative Rights Argument

I've never used a Talk page before, so if I'm doing this wrongly, please move my comments to where they should be. This statement caught my eye a little bit down the page:

"To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership."

The negative right not to starve will impede on someone's negative rights not to be taxed or to have property/food seized from them.

-nach0king

You should sign with ~~~~ at the end of your comment. It does this: PhilHibbs 11:05, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Will do in future, thank you. Nach0king 17:51, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to fix this thing now

After having been away for a month, I am glad to see that some people have enough sense to point out what was going on. Thank you millerc. The right-wing libertarians can't stand being pointed out for what they are- right-wingers- and so when someone does, they censor that person. It is sad.

Anyways, after watching one of the debates that Michael Badnarik was in with the Green Party's presidential nominee David Cobb, it occured to me that this page is also missing some critical information about right-wing libertarianism. Belief in a non-interventionist foriegn policy, opposition to "state corporatism" (WTO, NAFTA, etc...) and free trade across borders, opposition to the drug war, and the like. It would be interesting to hear a right-wing libertarian explain their views on corporate personhood, though they would probably try to avoid the question by talking about private property instead.

Anyways, this page desperatly needs to be factualized and neutralized and I am going to do it if no one else will.

-Political Nerd

Corporate personhood is largely irrelevant (I guess this is what you were looking for). Good luck improving the article -- your previous edits tended to make it worse. - Nat Krause 03:46, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Keen to assist those neutralizing this article. It is clearly not acceptable to label one form of libertarian thought 'libertarian socialism' and not put a corresponding explanatory label on the US version of libertarianism as being 'right-wing' or 'capitalist'. Lukewilson 23:11, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)


Reithy why is your logic alwayls so freaking stupid in your attempts to attack Libertarian articles. What you are saying is akin to going to the Virgina article and saying well there is West Virgina so it's cleary not acceptable to not put an east label on Virgina. Right-wing Libertaranism is not a valid term. Libertarianism as it's used today almost nobody thinks of it as libertarian socalist.
I substantively agree with anonymous/Chuck F, although he overstates a little by saying "almost nobody thinks of it as libertarian socialist". This is certainly true with regard to the United States, but if it were generally true, there would be no need for a disambiguation at the top of the page at all. But because there apparently are some people, mostly in other English-speaking countries, who would think of "libertarian socialism" we are happy to have a prominent disambiguatin so everybody winds up looking at the page they are interested in. It's better to avoid "right-wing libertarianism" because it is heavily debated among (Rothbard/Friedman/Nozick/Rand-style) libertarians whether or not they can accurately be called "right-wing" (see [1]) and as for "libertarianism capitalism", I've never in my life heard anyone say that except on Wikipedia. - Nat Krause 06:54, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Did it ever occur to you that might mean you aren't very well versed in political theory? Besides the political compass which clearly lays it out in a systematic and scientific fasion, right-wing libertarianism. http://infoshop.org/faq/secF1.html#secf11 There's some left-wing libertarianism for you, criticizing right-wing libertarianism. Feel free to read other parts of their FAQ if you're interested. Libertarian thought goes back waaaaaaaay before Hayek and von Mises. Proudhon was probably the first libertarian thinker historically, and his most famous saying is "Property if Theft." In fact, I have had some extensive discussions and arguements with some political friends of mine on this matter, since I believe that private property is form of Statism, and so it is inconsistant with libertarian principles. As stated earlier, you can't have "libertarian socialism", and then refuse to call right-wing libertarianism "libertarian capitalism." To do otherwise not only breaks the NPOV, but is an outright lie. -PoliticalNerd
Politicalnerd - why has the source for every single one of your edits been the Poltical compass? I remember about a month ago I made some critcisms about the poltical compass that you never responded to.... A.K.A a large quardant of the scale is impossible to reach.. It seems to be a scale biased created to be anti-Libertarian, based on the other things they write on that page. Simply saying your non-partisan doesn't mean you are... The swift vets for truth say they are non-partisain too, That doesn't mean we can quote them as being fact on subjects.

And the fact that that site has Al Franken under the list of Libertarianism reading materials just boggles my mind. 210.142.29.125

Comment from a libertarian

I am a life-long libertarian. Until a couple of years ago, when I started getting interested in U.S. politics, I had never thought that the extreme liberalism detailed in this article might seriously be called "libertarianism".

The U.S. has a Democratic Party, and "I'm a Democrat" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Democrat" and "Democracy" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Republican Party, and "I'm a Republican" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Republican" and "Republic" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country. The U.S. has a Libertarian Party, and "I'm a Libertarian" declared by an American voter means allegiance to this party, and yet "Libertarian" and "Libertarianism" have meanings that go beyond the petty politics of one country.

Why are the conclusions of the first two statements reflected in the contents of articles such as Democracy, Republic, etc. but not in Libertarianism? Why does this article not actually talk about libertarianism?

Could it be that too high a proportion of contributors are ignorant chauvinists from a certain part of the world? That's a rhetorical question. Chameleon 23:19, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

This article is about libertarianism. You may be interested instead in the United States Libertarian Party article for reference on that subject. Could it be that you have shown up here in an effort to smear other editors by innuendo and suggestion? Don't answer that, it's a rhetorical question. - Nat Krause 15:51, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Negative vs Positive rights doesn't make sense

The page currently says: For libertarians, there are no "positive rights" (such as to food, shelter, or health care), only "negative rights" (such as to not be assaulted, abused or robbed).

To me, this statement is meaningless. You can arbitrarily categorise rights as positive or negative. For example, the positive right to food could be categorised as the negative right not to starve. The negative right not to be robbed could be phrased as the positive right to property ownership.

As such I think that this is a pretty flimsy statement to be using in the first paragraph of the article, as it really tells us absolutely nothing about what Libertarians actually stand for. Shane King 07:38, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)

No, it accurately reflects the incoherent nature of ultra-liberal discourse. It should stay as it is. Chameleon 09:54, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I guess it fits in as NPOV, because it seems that both the supporters and detractors think it's a fair statement. But I'm still troubled by the sheer vapidness of it staring out at me from the first paragraph. I guess I drop my objection though, because fairness has to trump literary value in an encyclopedia. Shane King 11:08, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
Yes. Vapid. This article seems mostly an opinion dump by Liberals (self-styled) and Conservatives (also self-styled). If They want to put in a *BRIEF* critique of libertarianism, that is ok. But these people are writing about folks they neither approve of nor understand. I say "back off".

The first point: libertarianism is about liberty. Pure and simple. Some political POV will tolerate libertarians, and others will not. The central idea is that, taken collectively, ordinary people will choose the best path for themselves over time. Other POV hold that, for one reason or another, someone *ELSE* will be better at making that choice. But for a libertarian, liberty is a personal thing with an ultimately good social byproduct of a free country. Other POV put someone else in charge. If you miss this point, you miss the whole banana.

There is no such thing as a "positive" right. It is called an "entitlement". Socialists of various stripes can go over the particulars of these in extreme detail. There is no difference between a "positive right" and a debt. The society *OWES* you <something> and to not pay it is unjust. Has nothing whatsoever to do with libertarianism. It is the cornerstone of collectivism of various stripes. Your rights are to be defended against bullies of all sorts, even political ones.

The key point again: over time, the common people will make decisions in their own best interest -- if you give them freedom. The closer you can come to pushing vital decisions down to the individual level, the closer you will come to the best possible human political organization. Everything else is deduced from this point. Large social organizations foster tyranny.

milesgl


A general distinction is that a positive right requires that others actively do something (such as providing one with food or health care) while a negative right requires only that others refrain from doing something (such as robbing or assaulting). Thus, any positive right can be considered a right to the time and labor of others, while a negative right has no such aspect.
(That is why some libertarians regard positive rights as "slavery": the holder of such a right — if it is truly a right — thereby owns a portion of other people's labor. This means that those others do not own their own labor, and are therefore (fractionally) slaves. I for one think "slavery" is overstating the case.)
== Hear, hear!! Other people have no "rights" over you that you *PERSONALLY* don't give them.
Simply restating a positive right in negative grammar (e.g. as "right not to starve") does not change the fact that such a right would require positive action — not merely avoidance of action — on the part of those against whom the right is enforced.
There is an ambiguity around rights that seem to require government enforcement. For instance, is the right not to be robbed the same as a right to have the police come and arrest the guy who robbed you? That is, is the right to private property the same as a right to have the government enforce your ownership of that property? The right not to be robbed is a negative right, but a right to police enforcement would be a claim on the labor of the police, and therefore a positive right.
One resolution to this ambiguity is to note that even in today's society, nobody has an enforceable right to police enforcement. If you call up the cops and say that someone is robbing you, and the cops do nothing, you cannot (e.g.) sue the cops for inaction and collect damages. Therefore, even though we say that your rights are violated by the jerk who robbed you, they are not violated by the cops who didn't stop the robbery. Your right not to be robbed is, then, not a right to have the cops defend you, but rather a right to self-defense: you have the right to beat up the robbers without being charged with assault. —FOo 12:27, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
But doesn't an alleged criminal have the negative right to _not_ be beaten up by vigilantes? How do you decide whose rights are more important? --style 12:44, 2004 Oct 19 (UTC)
How is the right not to be asaulted enforced, if not through positive rights? Without some form of enforcement, you can not ensure people maintain the right not to be assaulted (as there will always be some people unable to defend themselves against others). So the negative right necessitates the positive right, if you wish to have something that works even in theory, let alone in practice.
I believe similar arguments can be constructed for anything you wish to list: the only way you can ensure rights that don't require time or labour of others is through actions that do require time or labour of others. Unless you wish to go down the path that people only have as many rights as they can claim by force, which is an interesting political philosophy, but I doubt one that would earn me a NPOV sticker if I presented it in an article on libertarianism. ;)
Personally, I find the distinction to be arbitrary hair splitting wrapped up as a philosophical point. However, as both sides of the debate seem to think they're winning, it must be said, it maintains the NPOV policy and so is probably OK to stay. Shane King 15:07, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
Actually, I tend to agree with Shane King: "positive rights" vs. "negative rights" is not very meaningful (and I'm a libertarian, or what Chameleon calls an ultra-liberal). Positive vs. negative rights can be useful sometimes as a rough guide, but it breaks down in the hard cases, at which point the only way to tell one from the other is to decide what is a genuine right and what is not. That is, the positive/negative distinction is not incorrect, it's just a tautology: it restates the basic premises of the relevant system of thought. - Nat Krause 15:23, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I don't like the "positive/negative" terminology (actually, I never heard it before I read this article -- is it in common use?). The Oceanian Constitution makes what may be a more useful distinction, between "rights" and "entitlements". IIRC, rights are something like what are here called negative rights, whereas entitlements are guarantees that can take precedence over rights in conflict. For example, an adult has a right to own property, whereas a child has an entitlement to food, clothing, and shelter. Seems like a reasonable dichotomy to me. --Marnen Laibow-Koser 16:58, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think this discussion has lead to a conflation of two separate things: rights, and the means for enforcing those rights. Both positive and negative rights demand a means for enforcing them which is provided for through taxation. These means are different than and separate from the actual rights themselves, which dictate those conditions the realization of which is the proper purpose of government expenditure. Ubernetizen 23:52, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'll go down that path. I go down it everyday. People do only have the rights that they, or others for them, can claim by force. This is the most reduced political philosophy, a reduction of all the ideology. Further reduced than anarchism, which still calls for something. There are really no rights that aren't just constructs of the human imagination, just abilities. When you reduce rights to "what can be claimed by force" they are just abilities. Following this logic we could reduce this even further to metaphysical arguments and say that even abilities are just constructs of the mind or of language. However, let's assume, for the sake of keeping the argument in political terms, that there's some physical world that exists beyond semiotic or mental constructs. But no one was about to do that anyway, were they?
With this in mind, I don't see why creating the article for libertarianism is of such difficulty. All you have to say is: libertarianism arbitrarily claims a set of "rights" to be what a government should defend for a people. And then list those rights, or the different set of rights different libertarians hold as their imperative. You could then include extra stuff like "libertarians tend to support democracy," "political parties described as libertarian include United States Libertarian Party," etc. What would the objections to such a setup be? --Whoabot 11:20, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Quoted comment from a libertarian

"There isn't much point arguing about the word "libertarian." It would make about as much sense to argue with an unreconstructed Stalinist about the word "democracy" — recall that they called what they'd constructed "peoples' democracies." The weird offshoot of ultra-right individualist anarchism that is called "libertarian" here happens to amount to advocacy of perhaps the worst kind of imaginable tyranny, namely unaccountable private tyranny. If they want to call that "libertarian," fine; after all, Stalin called his system "democratic." But why bother arguing about it?" — Noam Chomsky

I'm starting to agree with the man. Does it really matter if the ultra-liberals ruin the encyclopaedia? Just as we have to accept that a certain number of articles will be vandalised, a certain number will be hijacked. Chameleon 17:08, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Come on -- Chomsky is hardly neutral, and hardly libertarian. You might as well define libertarianism as a valencia orange. The whole point of an encyclopedia is to permit the curious and ignorant to find out a basic frame of knowledge on a particular topic. The only place for most of the junk here is in a section on hi-jacked political expression. "Libertarianism is not about liberty -- it is about slavery because if you are a libertarian you are slave to ideas other than the True One Shining Path to Glory". Etc, etc etc. Chomsky, and most writers here, advocate the use of FORCE against citizens to make them somehow "better". If that force is politically organized, you have a good working definition of statism/fascism/stalinism/kill-em-before-they-spread-ism. Yes -- this article is infested with trolls and evangelists of various denominations. Is there anyone else here who believes "freedom" is a virtue? Or that the common man can make good decisions?

milesgl Nov 9, '04

So, how many trolls are going to quote Chomsky on this page? This is now the second time someone has posted this quote on this talk page. What does this have to do with Wikipedia? Nothing. Please stop. Rhobite 17:20, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
Whoops! Didn't notice he was quoted above. Goes to show how quotable he is. And please stop whingeing! It's inevitable to get a reaction when you do what has been done to this article. Chameleon 19:57, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I did nothing to this article, but all you are doing is trying to pick a fight. Why not go around taking quotes from Stalin and posting them on Talk:Communism? Rhobite 20:27, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
The Communism article is quite acceptable. No need to make arguments to change anything. Chameleon 21:30, 19 Oct 2004 (UTC)
While I personally think that Noam Chomsky is an important figure in modern political thought, and I happen to agree with some of his ideas and ideals, it's hard to see how allowing him to define Libertarianism would qualify as NPOV. He's admitted himself that's his ideas have a lot in common with anarchists/libertarian socialists, and if there's one thing that you can say about the relationship with anarchists and libertarians, it's that there is no love lost between them, despite superficially sharing many of the same roots and ideals. So while I think that Chomsky is a good person to quote for a section on "Criticisms of Libertarianism", allowing his views to define it is something akin to using McCarthy's views to define Communism. Shane King 23:51, Oct 19, 2004 (UTC)
A "libertarian" socialist is an oxymoron. Socialism (which is *ALWAYS* a form of collectivism) is anathema to liberty. It postulates the submission of the individual to the group as a virtue. Anti-libertarian.

milesgl Nov 9, '04


No, defining libertarianism with Chomsky quotations against ultra-liberals is like defining communism with Marx quotations against Stalinists. (McCarthy was anti-Communist; Chomsky is libertarian communist) Chameleon 09:18, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Leaving aside the question of exactly what Chomsky is, one thing is for sure, he isn't Libertarian in the sense that this article uses the word. I'd say he's anti it in the same sense McCarthy is anti-communist. So basically your argument must come down to the word Libertarian being used wrongly in the article. How ironic then that you quote Chomsky saying that there's no point arguing about it!
I previously argued for changing for changing the article. I then thought aloud, using Chomsky's words, musing that perhaps it's not worth the fight. Neither I nor Chomsky thinks that this article should be about ultra-liberalism, but we both seem to be weary of people who insist on mangling the language in this way. Chameleon 12:42, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
With language, does definition follow usage, or usage follow definition? Chomsky, being a linguist may have more idea on this than I do, but my understanding is that they are both valid schools of thought. So I guess whether this is valid depends on which school of thought you belong to. Shane King 13:36, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
I'm certainly sympathetic to the view that Libertarianism should be a disambiguation page for Libertarian capitalism/socialism, but I find that Chomsky quote the most absurd way possible to achieve it. Far better to point to the NPOV policy that says all sides of the story should get a fair go.
Chomp-ski is *NOT* "libertarian" in any way except to torpedo an explication of "libertarian". Why not have him define Christianity too? And how about the Cordon Bleau? Socialism, in every form I know about (and that is a large number), is antithetical to libertarianism and/or individualism in all its forms. They are at *OPPOSITE* ends of the political spectrum. How much freedom (presumably of choice?) do you have to add to a Stalinist gulag to get "libertarian" socialism? Do you want salt with your boiled grass? Listen -- *INVOLUNTARY* control of people is *ANTI*-libertarian.

milesgl Nov 9, '04

As a side note, I'm rather disturbed that Chomsky seems to be achieving the kind of status on the left of this issue that Rand already commands on the right. For a philosophy that supposedly exhaults the individual, there appears to be almost a Monty Python-esque "We are all individuals" chorus going on. Shane King 10:17, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
It is possible to quote another's writings without being a groupie, you know. Wikipedia quotes lots of people, and it's officially NPOV. Chameleon 12:42, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
There's a deference between quoting someone in an article, and using a quote to define the topic of an article, in my opinion. One is neutral, the other is not. Shane King 13:36, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Noam Chomsky is a linguists professor. His thoughts on politics are about as valuable as a garbage collector's suggestions on brain surgery.
While I may not agree with Professor Chomsky on a number of subjects, the fact that he can argue his ideas cogently and intelligently make them worth looking at. I would recommend that you have a good look at, for example, Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies before mouthing off. Be aware, however, that it contains a number of words with more than one syllable, sorry, bit.Sjc 09:09, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The positive/negative formulation of rights is often unclear, but the distinction between certain kinds of rights remains useful and is not merely semantic. Philosophers and libertarians who emphasize negative rights are really positing an individual's "right" to be left alone and to exercise his liberty without interference from others (e.g., free speech), as opposed to a "duty" to promote someone else's welfare (e.g., healthcare), or the latter's corresponding "right" to receive it. Within this formulation there are those who argue these first-order rights are natural, and others who argue that they are prescriptive. Libertarians are not the only ones who emphasize negative rights or the right to liberty, though; for example, John Rawls, who is no libertarian (a la Robert Nozick), also gives liberty...the right to be left alone... precedence in his Theory of Justice. However one characterizes them, and whether or not one believes they have merit (which, after all, is not at issue in an encyclopedia), these alleged rights are central to libertarian and many modern liberal theories (see, for example, Isaiah Berlin).icut4u

Try reading the word "right" from a dictionary. There is no such thing as a "positive" right -- who dreamed that up anyway?? Citations?? This sounds like the worst amateur political drivel. If you advocate individual liberty as a political good, you are a "libertarian". Period. We are a very diverse (and disorganized) group. And are proud of it.

milesgl Nov 9, '04

Moved???

Although I personally can see advantages in moving the article (for example, it seems fairer that Libertarianism doesn't get owned by the right wing side if Anarchism doesn't get owned by the left and is instead shared), I think it was a bit much to just up and move a contentious article like this without discussion. I know you're supposed to assume good intent, but it almost seems an invitation to a flame war, which is hardly a good thing ... Shane King 00:36, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)


Capitalism is not the central feature of several important libertarian theories. For example, Friedman's economic libertarianism is largely utilitiarian and not rights based (which is not to say he ignores them). The theories of Nozick, Hospers, and Rand (she would not call herself a libertarian...but many of her followers do) are based on property rights, though each has a different twist. Nozick, for example, believes in historical entitlement, which is to say, if someone acquires property without having violated any moral principles, it is wrong to take it from him (he goes into some detail on Locke's proviso of there being enough available). Rand says property is a rational requirement for one to "implement" his life. Both would say that it would not matter if capitalism were effective or ineffective (e.g, if a state-run economy could be shown to distribute greater good to a greater number) ....for these moral principles would override any alternative. In other words, libertarianism to some is seen as a moral position, not an economic one. It is incorrect to characterize all libertarian theories as being equivalent to market capitalism. The new title of this article is therefore misleading. Capitalism is an economic theory (or description); libertarianism is something different, notwithstanding the fact capitalism is compatible with it.
For what it's worth, I also think the "right-wing" appellation, implying a kind of conservatism, is equally incorrect, and that it is intended to have a perjorative meaning rather than a descriptive one. The libertarians I have read believe in such things as complete decriminalization of drugs, legalized prostitution, gay marriage/homosexual rights, a completely secular society, science over faith, a minimal police force and military...hardly the kind of freedoms conservatives promote. There are quasi-libertarian ideas that attract conservatives, to be sure, primarily on economic grounds. But most libertarian theorists in philosphical circles are far more focused on maintaining what they suppose to be an individual's most fundamental right, namely, the right to be left alone by others.
Aside from this, I do not know of any well-known libertarian theorists who would characterize themselves as right wingers, whereas all of the conservatives I know would gladly accept this, just as all of the socialists I have known would have called themselves left wingers. Why do we need to entitle a theory something that its principal theorists would disavow? Some might believe communism is evil, but we should not therefore title the communism page "evil communism." I do not mean to imply evil is synonymous with right wing, but, given some of the comments, I think those who are using it might well think this is the case. Indeed, I believe that those who are calling this article right-wing libertarainism are not really trying to describe the theory at all, but to express their displeasure with it at differentiate it from what they believe to be the correct, pure kind of libertarianism, in this case, the socialist or Chomskian versions. In any case, I submit that it is also a mistake to call all of the ideas represented on this page right-wing libertarianism or capitalist libertarianism. It seems to me that libertarianism will do, and then the several types of libertarainsm can be mentioned therein. Pardon the prolix nature of this. icut4u
Yes, libertarianism does not fit neatly into the conventional left-right model of all political thought. There are people here who try to force it into such a model, but they are not libertarians and are not open-minded enough to deal with the existance of such a school of thought. So they fight about which end to plop it down on. If you think in terms of "left" and "right" you cannot understand what libertarianism is about. A closer dichotomy would be collective <=> individual, or State <=> citizen. All socialism except Anarchism is a form of forced collectivism. The suppression of the individual. It is antithetical to libertarianism. I think part of the problem is that too many ideologies want to claim "freedom" as their own -- even if they see individual freedom as a primary source of evil.

milesgl nov. 10 2004


There are two broad schools of libertarianism which the re-titling addresses. Libertarian socialism and libertarian capitalism. The socialist had their own page and now the capitalists do. This is an important way of ensuring neutrality. I accept they are not perfect titles although when I looked at merging the pages that seemed an inadequate solution as well.
There is certainly nothing implicit in a socialist or capitalist tag that is pejorative and I reject that characterization. Capitalism or captitalist is no insult these days with the entire world embracing its central tenets: private property, market mechanism, rule of law, etc. Even PRC is doing this in its own albeit flawed way.
With the left and right tag again, it is simple: tag one "left" then you must tag the other "right". I certainly do not regard either as an insult. They are flawed tags in some respects but do help explain political positions simply, perhaps too much so.
As for ShaneKing's point, he is quite right, I thought I had posted an explanation here before-hand but it doesn't seem to have come up. I think the change is an important and worthwhile one and commend it to you. Ã?"ã?¿ç®± 03:59, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
What's his name here uses the fact that there is libertarian socialism and liberarian capitalism, for his reason for redirecting 'libertarianism', but if that was the goal, why did he not make 'libertarianism' a disambiguation? Instead, he re-directs to just one of the libertarianism articles (namely, 'libertarian capitalism'). I don't see how this is intellectualy sound. Jordan Langelier 04:30, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I agree. Further, I did not say calling libertariansm(s) capitalist libertarianism is a perjorative, it is simply misleading, for capitalism is not the central feature of several of the most prominent libertarian theories. I think right wing is at once misleading (libertarianism is not conservative) and, in this context, I believe it has been used as a perjoritive. Moreover, there is no kind of political law of the excluded middle that requires a right to every left, and I certainly do not believe right wing describes libertarianism. This description focuses on one element, namely, the economic one... but there are many other aspects, and, again, notwithstanding some of the comments here, economics is not the central principle to most libertarian theories. Go out and ask any conservative you know if he believes we should legalize drugs, downsize the military and police, and allow gays to marry, get religion out of the government and schools, and you will see what I mean. An article simply entitled libertarianism with a description of each of the attendant theories would be better, without a semantically "loaded" modifier. I'll be quiet now. icut4u
I hate the left and right wing labels as much as anyone, I think they're stupidly limiting. Of course the entirity of political and philosophical thought can't be represented on a single straight line!
However, I can't argue that they're not often used terms which are used pervasively on the wikipedia. Therefore, I think that we must adress where Libertarianism stands in relation to these terms. To me, if you have to choose, Libertarianism is clearly right wing economically (if we accept right wing is capitalist, and left wing socialist). Socially, I agree, Libertarianist thought of all kinds is left wing. However, in my experience, the economic side of Libertarianism is by far the most emphasised part of it. Just look at the article here, and I think you'll see a lot more about economic than social issues. Therefore, given the conflicting choices, I'd have to call it right wing.
All that is secondary to the name change though, which does not mention right or left wing, so I'm not even sure why you've brought it up. Am I missing a greater point here? Shane King 04:53, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
On the R/L controversy, long before the move, at least two others have captioned the article "right wing libertarianism." Libertarianism as described by its best known proponents is not right wing or left wing, at least to the extent one implies conservatism at (which it does) and the other implies socialism (which it does). The meanings of these terms are simply not useful in describing libertarianism.
The economic focus of the article that you point out is a deficiency. Again, a number of the most prominent libertarian theoriests...Nozick, Hospers, (Rand...using advisedly) , and others...do not center their ideas on capitalism or economic principles, but on moral considerations. This is a critically important distinction. There is no prevailing doctrine that I know of called "Market libertarianism" or "Capitalist libertarianism" or "Right-wing libertarianism." These modifications are all being used to make a point and ignore the common understanding and description of the theory. That there are various strains of libertarianism is undeniable, but they ought to be delineated in the article. If adherents of a doctrine other than the commonly understood one want to use the same name (who used it first is unimportant; common usage is central), reference can be made to that fact in the article (as it does) icut4u

The move was nonsense, the user who moved it is vandalizing Wikipedia, and I've moved it back. Rhobite 05:10, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Good. icut4u

A suggestion

Since it looks like we can't reach consensus, perhaps we should make the "libertarianism" page a disambig page, pointing to the various articles that can reasonably lay claim to that name, such as the U.S. political movement, the European political movement, and the philosophical concept.-- The Anome 13:38, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think only a policy change will achieve that. Chameleon 14:34, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I think that's a fine idea. The fact of the matter is, the word has different meanings, depending on place, time and context. A 'policy change' is not required; the fact of the matter is, 'policy' would dictate that 'Libertarianism' be a disambig page. Sure, when most people think 'Libertarian' it would be so-called 'Libertarian Capitalism' but that understanding is not so overwhelming that it eclipses all other meanings. Jordan Langelier 16:00, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
yes, that's why we've disambiged at the top of the page... The understanding is so overwhealimg that it eclipses disambig... most of the people here advocating the other side seem to be anti-libertarian based on thier past edits.
Well, I'm certainly not 'anti-libertarian' (in fact, I'm registered in Colorado, where you have to write it in on the voter registration) but then again my objectivity and ability to go NPOV is truly admirable and rare in realms such as this (it is, after all, my modesty that makes me so great ;) Jordan Langelier 20:05, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Even assuming you are correct and that the people who want the page moved are anti-libertarian, why does that matter? Surely arguments are what matters, not the people making the argument. Shane King 23:28, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this. There are plenty of words in English for which there are similar words, but with different meanings, in French or other languages. This page is about the idea which in English is called by the name "libertarianism".

If that is the real source of tension here — that the French word that looks like the English "libertarianism" is best translated to English as "anarcho-socialism" — then I do not think a disambiguation page is suitable on the English Wikipedia. Nor would one be appropriate on the French Wikipedia; the French page for libertarianisme or whatever should describe what we in English call anarcho-socialism, if that is what French speakers mean by it.

What does the word "libertarianism" mean to a (neutral) British speaker — or an Australian, Canadian, or NZ? If it means what it means to an American speaker, then it is the appropriate title of an English Wikipedia page. If, on the other hand, the American use of the term is in fact regional, then this page should be retitled. However, that title should be "Libertarianism (U.S.)" or some such. It should not be "Libertarian capitalism", "Capitalist libertarianism" or any other such Marxoid neologism. —FOo 22:49, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Libertarianism"

Just so, FOo. icut4u
Huh? Marxoid neologism? When you're trying to distinguish from something that's being called "Libertarian socialism", and the primary difference is that this is capitalist rather than socialist, how on Earth does "Libertarianism (U.S.)" make more sense than "Libertarian capitalism"?
First, because nobody describes themselves as a "libertarian capitalist". People who have the view described here call themselves "libertarians", and this term has been understood by people of other views to refer to this belief and this group. We do not choose the names of Wikipedia articles arbitrarily, even when they are retitled for disambiguation. We choose them with respect for usage. The term "libertarian capitalist" is a neologism; it is not a natural usage.
Be that as it may, I was under the impression that the NPOV policy trumped any asthetic concerns such as this. Maybe my understanding is incomplete/incorrect? Shane King 06:27, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
(As a note: The phrase "libertarian socialist" has over ten times as many Google hits as "libertarian capitalist". In contrast, "socialist" has about twice as many as "libertarian", and "anarchist" half as many — and these latter three terms have many hundreds of times more hits than the former two. The latter three terms are, I propose, much better understood than the former two.)
I find it myopic to suggest that google hit counts are the final arbiter of human knowledge. Comparing hit counts can be an interesting hobby, but I don't think they really tell us much. Shane King 06:27, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
Second, because the use of the term "capitalist" here is misleading. It appears to explain libertarianism as a kind of "capitalism", in the sense that libertarian socialism is a kind of socialism; or else to reduce libertarianism to capitalism. I consider the latter view to be related to Marx because it was Marx who argued that ideology derives from economic standing. (I wrote "Marxoid" partly humorously, and partly to avoid writing "Marxist" and thus implying that any particular person here was a "vulgar Marxist". A more sensible word would have been "Marxian" perhaps.)
Most libertarians seem to believe that their views on economics (or their economic class) are not the source of their views on other issues; rather, their economic and other views both derive from overarching principles. Thus, the title "Libertarian capitalism" itself presents a bias towards a Marxian view of economics, politics, and ideology, and away from the way that libertarians describe their own views. This is not simply an NPOV matter, but also an accuracy matter, since it implies something false about the views which the article is describing. —FOo 03:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC) (Continued below)
What Libertarians believe their ideology is about is not important to me. For the same reason I argued against using a Chomsky quote to define Libertarianism, I argue that using what Libertarians think is equally dangerous ground. To do otherwise is to throw away all hope of neutrality. Shane King 06:27, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
My argument for movement is not linguistic but one of fairness (ie maintaining neutrality). What I think of anarchism is pushed to anarcho-socialism on this wiki, and equal time is given to the anarcho-capitalists on the anarchism page, despite the fact that they are certainly in the minority in using the term that way. I see no reason why the same should not be done for libertarianism. Who cares if most people (assuming it is true) think of Libertarianism as being of the capitalist variety, the fact that even a small minority of people think otherwise suggests that it should not be able to lay sole claim to the page. Or at least it should if we're being fair and applying the same standards that were applied to the anarchism page. Shane King 23:28, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)
Another *KEY* concept of libertarianism -- and note that it *IS* an "-ism" and actually has adherents -- is freedom of association. This means that any individual has the freedom to be a part of a group he chooses and which will accept him. But it also means that either party can DISassociate too. This makes all forms of socialism not applicable. Anarchism is a close cousin, and it is doubtful that it is "left" in any meaningful sense. The use of force to form and enforce social groupings is anathema to libertarians. Who cares what ideologues of other stripes have to say about us?? Let them stick to describing themselves. If French thinkers believe the use of force to form and maintain associations is acceptable anarchism, they are nuts. Read Bukharin. In my view anarchsm is a more extreme version of libertarianism, and far, far, far from the shackles of all forms of "socialism". Coating organized coercion with chocolate FREEDOM is purely cosmetic, whether the coercers view their organizations as "capitalist" or "communist".


It is my understanding (which may be mistaken) that many libertarian socialists and anarcho-socialists object to the common use in English of the term libertarian to refer to non-socialist minarchists and anarchists. While I understand that the term in French and other languages has a different meaning, I think we should title English articles based on the most common uses in English. The purpose of disambiguation titles is to disambiguate for the arbitrary reader, when common usage is unclear. It is not to promote changes in common usage.
This is why, if there is in fact a linguistic difference among dialects of English as to whether "libertarianism" commonly refers to the socialist or the non-socialist position, then I think there should be disambiguation based on dialect. However, if the difference is that some people wish that common usage were other than it is (for instance, they may wish that libertarianism were called "big-green-cow-ism") then there is no sensible reason to appease that desire. That is not fairness; it is sacrificing an accurate representation of usage for what someone wishes usage were. —FOo 03:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)
I can't speak for what other people's objections may be. I don't object to libertarians using the title libertarian. I do object to them claiming sole ownership of it when there seems to be a case for its ownership being shared.
Outside of the wikipedia context, I'd probably agree with you, and say the current usage is correct. However, I feel the precedent has been set with the anarchism page, and that in the interests of balance, there are really only two choices: a) give anarchism to the majority anti-capitalist meaning, and libertarianism to the majority pro-capitalism meaning; or b) accept the claim of the minority usage in both cases and allow both pages to be shared. I feel that the major fault in your argument here is that you are looking at this page in isolation. Shane King 06:27, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)
I don't think it's a good idea to take the anarchism page as a precedent for this one. For one thing, if something is wrong with one page, we want to make sure not to duplicate the mistake on another. For another, I don't think that anyone (well, hardly anyone) is happy with the current state of anarchism. The article as it stands is in fact mostly about socialist anarchism, and then it also contains sections comparing and contrasting that with anarcho-capitalism. The result is something of a mess. As I have said on talk:anarchism a couple times, I think it would be preferable to arrange that page the same way libertarianism is: with a disambiguation at the top for anarcho-capitalism and then the rest of the text all about one thing. Because the situations, though similar, are not quite the same I do think it would be a little better to use a different arrangement for anarchism, but the disamiguate-at-the-top format would be quite acceptable there, and I think that's what's warranted for the libertarianism page. - Nat Krause 10:00, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I respect what you are trying to do, Shane, and I do think you're being earnest. However, I am not sure what the relevance of fairness qua equal time is from an editorial perspective. I do not think, for example, the subject of communism needs requires articles on, say, Israeli communism, Marxist communism, and everyone's version of it. I suspect if one were to go to any widely-recognized encyclopedia in the English speaking world, you will find one entry for libertarianism and no entries for capitalist libertarianism, market libertarianism, or, dare I say, socialist libertarianism (as opposed to socialism). To the extent there are several species of it, the artilce should make reference to them. Anyway, that's my view, and I think that FOo and others might be making a similar point. icut4u

Fair enough, I respect that point of view. I just think that it can become unwieldly, as there's already enough he-said/she-said in an article on a single topic, let alone an article on multiple topics (witness the anarchism article). Shane King 01:00, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Nat Krause. A Wikipedia article should be about one thing. The prevailing meaning of "anarchism" as far as I have seen it used is anarcho-socialism or anti-capitalist anarchism. If that is the case throughout English, then the article should be about anarcho-socialism, with a disambiguation note at the top to anarcho-capitalism. However, unlike the term "anarcho-capitalism", the term "libertarian capitalism" is not widely used (while Google searches are not a perfect measure, they are a pretty darned good one) and so does not form a useful title for an article.

I must respond to one more of Shane King's points. He asks whether "aesthetic concerns" trump Wikipedia's NPOV policy. I do not think they would. However, accuracy concerns are not merely aesthetic concerns. Neutrality means that we should strive to represent the world as it is, rather than as we may wish it to be.

It is not Wikipedia's job to tell English-speakers that they should use the word "libertarian" to mean something else than what they presently (by and large) use it to mean. The word does have a specific predominant usage (both by libertarians and non-libertarians); and it is a misuse of Wikipedia to choose article titles in an effort to promote the point of view that this predominant usage should be changed. —FOo 22:49, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you. I guess my initial arguments for change here are taking the situation with anarchism as a given (since when I was last giving editing wikipedia a go, there seemed to be a resistance to change over there). Perhaps I'm talking on the wrong page! Here, I was just trying to respect precident, as much like with law, when stuck with tricky questions, precident is often the only tool available to make difficult decisions. I guess unlike with law, precident is much less binding here, as we can "re-open the case" whenever we like.
As far as representing how the world is rather than how we would like it to be: if only we could be so objective. However, if you ask a Christian, he'll tell you God exists. If you ask an atheist, he'll tell you God does not exist. Which one is how the world is? How do we decide? The truth is with wikipedia we usually hedge our bets and don't talk about how the world is, we rather talk about how different groups would like it to be. The same with this subject: Libertarianism is not implemented anywhere that I'm aware of. This subject is all about a theory that disucsses how some people would like the world to be, not how it (currently) is. If we were to stick to strictly talking about how it is, the article would probably be "Libertarianism is a theory that has never been tested anywhere", since that's about the only statement that can be made without jumping into speculation, for and against, as to what would happen in a Libertarian society.
Please don't take that as a slur: I think most political and philosophical theories fall into that category! Shane King 23:51, Oct 21, 2004 (UTC)

Accounts

I have noticed that most of the recent edits seem to be made by anonymous people without accounts on Wikipedia. I would like to urge people to create accounts and therefore properly identify themselves if participating in any controversy or frequent editing. Chameleon 13:25, 21 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Libertarianism (US) v Libertarianism (EUR)

There is such ambiguity here that it seems totally inappropriate for one version of libertarianism to occupy one page and another to be classified differently. For neutrality's sake, I think a disambiguation page is necessary here. ReithySockPuppet 21:06, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There is little ambiguity: the term is rarely, if ever, used in Europe, so one term is clearly vastly more common. Similar heuristics result in the redirection of Paris to Paris, France rather than Paris, Texas. --Delirium 17:14, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

Libertarian Capitalism

Contrary to what the most recent revision states, none of the major libertarian theorist of the English-speaking variety (Hospers, Nozick, Hayek, Mises, etc.) uses the descriptor "libertarian capitalism." It is false to say that this is the common understanding or usage among libertarians. For what seems like the 100th time, not all libertarian theorists base their views on economic grounds. Indeed, the principal libertarian theorists of the last fifty years, other than Friedman (Mises and Hayek wrote their seminal works prior to fifty years ago), base their views on moral grounds....stating that it is morally wrong to take someone's fairly acquired property, notwithstanding someone else's end-state theory. One can argue all day long as to whether or not this is the correct view, but this is what they, the libertarians, believe.

Libertarians believe people ought to be left alone as much as possible. That is the essence of negative rights, which was mischaracterized in several previous posts. This position is not a mere linguistic trick. The fact that this allows for free exchange (or relatively free, for few libertarians believe in absolute property rights), disposing of one's property as one sees fit, is what makes the theory compatible with capitalist acts. The latter does not justify the former. It is simply wrong to make out libertarianism to be primarily or solely an economic position. Many libertarain theorists in the English-speaking world believe that it is primarily a matter of moral rights, notwithstanding the economic consequences.

I do not understand why those who find the libertarian position to be disagreeable cannot nevertheless allow it to be defined as its principal proponents would describe it, as opposed to introducing new usage in order to make sometimes subtle and sometimes not so subtle editorial points about their position. That belongs in a critical analysis, not in an objective exposition of the position. I fear that this subject arouses too many passions to ever be accurately described, for long, in this kind of a forum icut4u

Capitalism is an economic societal system, like communism or socialism. Libertarianism is a political system, like fascism, oligarchy, or democracy. I don't know why you all (and the rest of the world, for that matter) make it more difficult than it is.

A new page for your consideration

I think the current libertarianism article is frought with difficulty. For one thing, it is about anti-libertariansim as much as it is about libertariainsm. For another, there is considerable redundancy, some of which is avoidable. And, it does not explicate several important issues critical to libertarian thought. It is obviously controversial, so I thought a new attempt with several qualifications in defining libertarian philosophy might be in order. I tried to capture all of the important links and major ideas, but did not include the Nolan Chart, though I addressed it, and I certainly would not object to its inclusion. In any event, I offer it for your consideration, improvement (which it certainly needs), and rejection/deletion. The new article is entitled Libertarian theory. I have no objection if most of those who frequent this page simply want to can it, and I won't try to preserve it. icut4u 00:34, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Non-US libertarians (of the non-socialist sort)

User:172.190.144.30 is now reverting the page under the edit summary "the libertarianism described in this article is found in America only and that should be noted" (sic). This seems to be remarkably, amazingly false, as evidenced by parties calling themselves "Libertarian" or a cognate in (at least) Argentina, Australia, Canada, Costa Rica, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and Portugal. [2]

Perhaps the Libertarian Party of Ontario doesn't like being called American. And the Libertarian International Organization seems to have lots of links to non-US libertarian movements under that very name. The International Society for Individual Liberty says even them French dudes got libertarians — and they don't mean libertarian socialists here at least. —FOo 05:26, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good points raised here, I have been very uncomfortable though with the labelling of one form of libertarianism as socialism and the other (of a capitalist persuasion) as libertarianism. The lack of good faith here negates someone having a genuine belief about this without being presumed as biased. I am not a libertarian at all, and am neither socialist nor capitalist in absolute terms. It just seemed even-handed and encyclopedic to label both equally. I believe the solution is a disambiguation page where libertarianism is currently. Reithy 08:08, Nov 3, 2004 (UTC)

As I said in the edit sumarries: Paris is not a disambig page, Because of how much more Paris, France is in that term then Paris, Texas.

Libertarniasm socalism is a qualifer on top of Libertarianism. Libertarianism is the default term meaning what the page says it means, Liberarian socalism is a different thing compleatly, and is a qualifer on top it, Much like geoliberatism . NOBODY uses libertarian capatalism besides the 600 pages on google that are opponets of libertarianism.

Actually, I think the article as it stands is pretty misleading in the sense that you would not be directly aware that there are other forms of libertarianism if you read it. I appreciate that there are many libertarians, particularly those located in America, on Wikipedia, but this is no excuse to bias ownership of the term when it may have wildly different definitions in other countries. I think for this reason alone this page should become a disambiguiation page pointing to other uses of the term. That said, I agree that "captalist" libertarian is a pretty biased term. Perhaps "free market" libertarian would be more appropriate? --Axon 10:56, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Look! neither of these terms exist... I don't understand where this movement in wikipedia is coming from, that thinks we should go and make up words, just to make the English language more "fair". 600 googles for Libertarain Capatalism, about the same about for market libertarniasm. Whereas Libertarian Socalism has 11,000. It's obvious here That the word as it's defined means what it means, What is your people's problem? stop trying to 1984 words. Chuck F 12:33, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your stance on this: are you for the exclusively "free market" definition of libertarian or are you calling for a more open definition? Please calm down and explain your arguments. --Axon 12:46, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm for the exclusive free market definition. Libertariasm as the base defininaton right now means The free market definition. Libertarian socalism(it's libertariansm with a qualifer on top) is a different word, therefore has a different definitation and is why people use that.

In that case I think that one could throw the accusation 1984'ing the term libertarian back at you: why should you "own" the definition of libertarian? Let's not descend into petty accusations of censorship and stick with discussing whether or not it is NPOV to have a disambiguation page here.
On the qualifiers: I am assuming that the reason we have a "socialist libertarian" page is because the "free market libertarian" definition is already occupying the "libertarian" page: one assumes that socialist libertarians refer to themselves as libertarians.
Regardless, if other people in other countries use libertarian differently then surely there is, for reasons of neutrality, no reason not to give them equal footing in this encyclopaedia. The fact that there are more "capitalist" libertarians on the Internet should not matter - if substantial numbers of both parties exist then should they not be given equal precedence here? --Axon 14:20, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The guy just posted above all the liberatian parties in different countries... THe only way you can find people that use the term differntly is people in countries that USE A DIFFERENT TERM, but they like it translated as libertarian. Come on. Calling it capatalist Libertarian is just ridiclous, Nobody use that term, Google seriously has as many results for commie democract as they do for capatalist libertarian, that doesn't mean we are redirecting democracy to commie democract or something similar to that Chuck F 14:20, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No-one is denying that "capitalist" libertarians exist in other countries (although I think there is an argument that this form is more commonly found in America) but this fact does not exclude the possibility that other groups may refer to themselves as libertarians yet may not be "free market" libertarians.
On the fact that no-one refers to themselves as capitalist libertarians: one might counter that no-one refers to socialists libertarianism as such. It is not really an argument against the proposed disambiguation page since there is no reason why socialist libertarians should be descriminated against. Similarly, a more neutral term for "free market" libertarianism may be found that we can all agree upon if "capilitalist" libertarian is not satisfactory.
On translation of libertarianism: what proof can you offer that the translation from French is incorrect? Also, Wikipedia is not in the business of proscribing how people translate words from their language into english - if a substantial number of individuals refer to themselves as libertarians we should respect this.
In fact, if one assumes that "libertarian" descends from "liberty" which is, I believe, itself originally a French word (it's part of their national motto isn't it?) then surely they have "prior art" (ahem) on the term and perhaps even a better claim? Also, I believe that libertarian shares much in commong with "liberal" - I think both descend from "liberty". I think liberals may also be allowed to call themselves libertarians, or may have done so at some prior point in time.
In fact the most common definition of "libertarian" I can find is "someone who believes the doctrine of free will" which makes no mention of free markets or economics and seems to cover a wide range.
Finally, this discussion is about libertarianism, not democracy. A dismabiguation page might also be required for democracy if sufficient arguments are given for it but this is probably not the place to discuss this. --Axon 14:57, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
okay, then talking about Libertarianism. We aren't being unfair to Libertarian Socalism, they call themselves libertarian socalists!, they don't call themselves libertarians. and you know what I'm going out right now and saying these are out-right lies people have been posting... The term is not used differently outside of english speaking words, this is simply people that are anti-lp spinning facts. They use the English term "libertarniasm" to mean LIBERTARIANISM not socalist libertanism everywhere around the world Chuck F 15:18, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I think accusations of lying should be backed up with evidence in this case, otherwise they remain just that - accusations. For example, a quick look on the Internet demonstrates that the term libertarian has indeed been used in a variety of different ways prior and subsequent to it's adoption by the American libertarian movement.
What evidence is there that social libertarians in all countries solely refer to themselves as such? Regardless, they still all use the term libertarian so, by your own admission, it is not the soul domain of the "free market" libertarian movement. Would it not seem very POV to be greeted with the "free market" definition of libertarian when you first arrive at Wikipedia.
I would also be interested in your responses to some of my other points rather than just cherry-picking those you would prefer to answer. --Axon 15:47, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Okay, so you are saying that it's also pov to be greeted with Paris France instead of Paris Texas? And my own admisson was they use the term libertarian in connection with socalism. They do not use the term alone.
The obvious difference between Paris, France and Paris, Texas and our own discussion here is that one is not causing a huge edit war and the other is. Feelings are running high on this issue so some sort of compromise for the purposes of NPOV seems required.
My point, which you have ignored, was that both parties use the term "libertarian" and therefore neither group can claim exclusive use of it.
And, again, you are simply responding to some of those points I mention but ignoring some of the others I've discussed. Are you interested in discussing this or simply asserting you own POV over and over until the whole world nods in agreement? --Axon 16:21, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Ok -- since a bunch of socialists of various flavors are here defining libertarianism (which none of them like), how about letting me redefine the socialist page? How about making "socialism" primarily of the National Socialist Worker's Party (i.e. "nazi") variety? There were millions of them, all calling themselves socialists. And then Joseph Stalin ran a State which called itself "socialist". The two, with well over 100 million people in them, ran concentration camps where human beings were intentionally exterminated. So socialism, as frequently used in Europe, implies large, barbed wire enclosed prisons for those determined by the State to be undesirable with a goal of extermination by the State. How's that for a definition of your beloved "socialism"??? It has far more accuracy, and historical justification, than the tripe on libertarianism. Should we let the anti-democrats define democracy? This is downright silly. Anti-libertarian definitions / descriptions of libertarianism can be displayed in a section with a caveat about what libertarians think of them. --milesgl 15:00 CST (USA) 12 Nov 2004
I hate to burst your bubble Milesgl, but libertarianism was used by socialists to refer to themselves long before capitalists caught on to the idea. Many socialists really -do- like libertarianism, and find it rather sad/laughable that the philosophy of social freedom has been co-opted by folks peddling private tyranny as the ultimate form of free social organization. Its one thing for capitalists to claim to be libertarians, that is crazy enough, but for them to claim that socialists cannot legitimately label themselves libertarians is just ridiculous and reveals a very poor grasp of history. Kev 08:11, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Positive Rights" "Negative Rights"

Michael Badnarik said: "RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES ARE POLAR OPPOSITES. A RIGHT IS SOMETHING THAT I CAN DO WITHOUT ASKING. A PRIVILEGE IS SOMETHING THAT A HIGHER AUTHORITY ALLOWS ME TO DO. IT IS UTTER NONSENSE FOR US TO ACCEPT GOVERNMENT PERMITS IN ORDER TO EXERCISE AN INALIENABLE RIGHT." -[Project Vote Smart][3]

At least with regard to the US Libertarian Party-- Perhaps the argument on the use of the word "rights" in the article could center more toward this quote, since the paragraph in context is suppose to show what "Libertarians believe".

Chuck's unjustified reverts are not a good thing. Reithy 11:41, Nov 2, 2004 (UTC)
It might be usable as a quote, but in the unquoted context, it's pretty troublesome. In the same breath he's saying these rights are unalienable, and complaining about the government alienating them. He says rights are something one can do without asking, yet he's asking people to vote for him so he can ensure you can do them without having to ask. It's even more of a contradiction than what's currently in the article!
It works well as a piece of election rhetoric, but surely someone can find something that better represents the Libertarian argument than that container of logical absurdities. I'm not a Libertarian, but if I was, I'd feel like someone was doing my views a disservice if that went in the article. Shane King 13:36, Nov 4, 2004 (UTC)

I agree. He is one example of a libertarian politician, but not a particularly good libertarian theorist. I should be no more inclined to quote him than, say, George Bush or John Kerry on federalism or democracy, notwithstanding the fact both of them are presumably examples of people who believe in both of these ideas. Besides, as you point out, it is not a well-constructed point icut4u 16:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why has the link to libertarian socialism been deleted from the introduction?

*cough, cough*

Far be it from me to intrude on this nasty little edit war that has locked the page, but someone might want to fix a broken link one of these days. "Revisiting Anarchism and Government by Tibor R. Machan." is no more. http://www.liberalia.com/htm/tm_minarchists_anarchists.htm times out. -- Branden 01:48, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I found a wonderful essay on libertarianism, at http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php and would like to see it added to the external links section. thanks.

Seen it. It's just one more salvo in the perpetual flamewar it purports to deride. It is not particularly informative, nor a well-formed critique; it is a flame. --FOo 02:01, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sandbox during edit war

From the head of the article:

This article deals with the major usage of the word libertarianism. For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).

"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.

add the new line:

"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to anarchists who oppose private property or who support workers control, particularly outside of North America. This politics is more fully explored at Libertarian socialism.

Which should make the disambig clearer than the later line in the body of the article.

No because that's wrong Chuck F 03:40, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ok, socialists, point me to an anarchist theorist (restricted to someone who ADVOCATES anarchy as a good) who says no private property? Now I am not talking about socialist thinkers writing *COMMENTARY* on anarchism, but people who primarily identify themselves as "anarchists". I don't think you will find any since centralized control is necessary to abolish private property, and no anarchist I ever heard of wants centralization. Centralization is the root of all evil for most anarchists. For further reading, check out "syndicalism". milesgl 15:05 CST 12 Nov 2004
Advocates anarchism but rejects private property? Gee, um... how about Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, Tucker, Goldman, and pretty much all of the anarchist tradition? Contrary to the claims of many people, authoritarian control (central or distributed) is necessary to -sustain- private property, not to abolish it. In the absence of coercive enforcement private property can't exist because it would have nothing to fall back on when dissenters refused to submit. What can exist, and what all of the anarchists I mentioned above advocated in one form or another, is possession, a form of resource distribution distinct from private property entitlement. Kev 08:04, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is the correct disambiguation, NPOV and factually correct the result of consensus building over a long period (the version that has been protected is a vandalised version):

This article deals with the capitalist version of libertarianism as it is principally understood in the United States and often associated with anarcho-capitalism. For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism. It is noted that there are many interpretations of the philosophy in different nations.

For the use of the term "libertarianism" in the philosophy of free will see libertarianism (philosophy).

"Libertarian" and "libertarianism" are also used to refer to liberty in a general way. For example, someone arguing for civil liberties may be known as a "civil libertarian", regardless of their exact political allegiances.


Wtf are you talking about, the result of concenus building over a long time was this

"For a discussion of the meaning of the term libertarian that is traditional in Europe, see libertarian socialism."

not your verison... at least don't lie Chuck F 15:49, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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