Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

Style guide philosophy

Archived to Archive 11. Maurreen 19:04, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

New template

Archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style--Archive11. Maurreen 12:15, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Draft trim and restructuring

In line with the "style guide philosophy" section listed above, I have produced a concise version of the current Manual of Style. I have tried not to delete key policy and that is not my intention, I will reinsert bits that are missing. The aim is to shorten the Manual (and considerably too), but without changing policy. Guidance on how the Manual can be applied can then go on subsidiary pages. Going through the Manual has made me think that there's too much on links in the Manual (most, if not all, of it is already covered where it should be covered on Wikipedia:How to edit a page). I'm also thinking of tabulating the Capital letters section.

My proposed version is on Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Draft trim (November 2004). Please leave detailed comments on its talk page: Wikipedia talk:Draft trim (November 2004). A comparison of the current manual and the proposal can be seen on [1]. jguk 16:39, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Comments

This is also a reorganization. I think the two should be handled separately. Maurreen

The simplest way to trim the style guide would probably be to put the section about links on its own page. Maurreen 00:22, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have added my comments on the discussion page for the draft trim. I wonder if the above might be better moved there also, with a prominent and bolder announcement of the draft trim appearing instead. This would keep the draft time discussion quite separate from any discussion of substantive changes. Jallan 04:57, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

OK, I moved most of my response. Maurreen 06:12, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Right floating TOC

Should the TOC be floating right instead of left-aligned? Please see Wikipedia talk:TOC. Angela . 17:19, Nov 15, 2004 (UTC)

Multiple links to the same target

Moved to Links archive. Maurreen 04:25, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Punctuation as punctuation

Moved to Archive 11. Maurreen 04:29, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Italics or quotation marks

O.K., a bit off topic, but you three seem to know your stuff: Where is it most clearly spelled out in these pages when to italicize and when to use quotes? Most articles bounce back and forth between the two, and the M.O.S. isn't too "specific"/specific on the subject. My impression was that italics are to be used here in many situations where one would elsewhere use quotes. Thanks.Sfahey 04:17, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That doesn't have its own section. You need to look up the item in question, such as "book titles". Maurreen 18:41, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks, I found that info. How 'bout to show you mean a word ironically, as in: "It took you only four hours to get across the Triboro Bridge?" Sfahey 23:26, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't think we have a style on that, so use whatever you like. Maurreen 04:21, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Spelling: collections of articles

Archived at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style archive (spelling 3).

Links: bold and italics

I would like to propose that links not have additional character styles applied (such as bold or italics). As a professional technical writer/editor, that has been the convention whenever I have dealt with HTML writing/editing. (Besides, it just looks ugly.) I know that this would go into effect slowly since people learn by imitation, rather than reading the style guide, but I have started making these changes wherever I see them. User:Ksnow

In my opinion, whether or not something is a link should be independent of whether or not it is emboldened or italicised. However, could you provide some links to diffs for edits you have made where you think removing bold or italic markup improved an article? —AlanBarrett 20:42, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am neutral about what Ksnow suggests about boldfacing, but I strongly oppose what Ksnow suggests regarding italics, which looks terrible in a paragraph that contains both titles that are linked and titles that are unlinked (because they are second or third occurences of a title that has already been linked earlier in the article). There is nothing wrong with "Ernest Hemingway's The Old Man and the Sea."—Lowellian (talk)[[]] 03:40, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

Proposal to remove consistent synonym recommendation.

Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Usage and spelling contains a recommendation about words with variant spellings where their spellings are typical of different forms of English:

If the spelling appears within the article text, also consider a consistent synonym such as focus or middle rather than center/centre.

The sentence fist appeared on June 29 of this year, added by Adamsan.[2] There is no related discussion on the talk pages of that period. I myself first noticed it on October 18 when looking through Maureen's draft trim. I was surprised that I had not noticed it before. My comment was:

This advice is horrendous! Is there another style guide in the world that would suggest one should reconsider using normal, everyday English words because they have more than one common spelling? The result of this, if people paid any attention, would be a non-standard Wikipedia dialect of English, limited to spelling-neutral vocabulary. Better to go with a fixed spelling, whether US or Britsh or whatever, than this![3]

Maureen suggested, quite rightly, that we not deal with substantive changes when considering the draft trim, and I let the matter pass at that time.

I believe the sentence should be removed because:

1 Advice of this kind almost certainly does not appear in any other English style guide or style manual.

Generally Wikipedia follows the standard styles recommended by other manuals, sometimes choosing one recommendation over another.

2 Following this recommendation to any great extent, that is doing more than simply considering, would produce a non-standard English within Wikipedia.

Common, ordinary words used widely in English would be discouraged in Wikipedia alone. The deprecation rules would be seen as a joke to any reader who knew of this policy, who would giggle to see hue used so widely in place of semi-banned color/colour, taste instead of flavor/flavour, brimstone instead of sulphur/sulphur. The result of this bias against normal words would not be a neutral English but a bogus, neutered English.

Actually it's seasoning rather than flavor/flavour in the case of potato chip. There was a protracted (lame) edit war on this, and although silly, changing this one word did end it. zoney ♣ talk 18:50, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

3 This recommendation has no consensus.

I do not believe this new recommendation is widely known. On the Village Pump jguk attempted to gain support for a stronger implementation of this rule, without mentioning the weaker version on the MoS. He got no support. Maurreen recently brought up the matter on this page, asking if anyone supported jguk's proposal. There was no response. I believe this indicates no interest in the spirit of this rule.

4 This recommendation is a dangerous tool for spelling conflict.

There many debates now about whether particular spellings should be used in particular articles without this in addition. The article White guilt, contained British spellings from its creation on February 4 of this year, until a revision by Spleeman's August 20 reduced three occurrences of the word colour into two occurrences of the form color. At that time these occurrences of colour were the only remaining specifically British forms, though some subsequently appeared. On November 18, Iota, who had previously done a major overhall on the article, made some further changes and, in particular, changed to the occurrences of color to colour and mentioned in the edit summary: "restandardised to BE which has been in article since early on". The following day Darrien changed the references to people of colour to blacks, a change he explained by the edit summary: "Use neutral English". When I suggested on the talk page that the change was an incorrect one, Darrien cited the rule here being discussed. Darrien has previously been vigorous in pushing American spelling ... not always wrongly in my view. But a rule encouraging a change of this kind seems questionable, a method of forcing out spellings one does not like. I suppose someone could now fight back back by forcing similar "neutral" English on articles Darrien has written, citing this same rule. I do not think this was the intended purpose of the rule and I do think that the neutered English that would result is what most people want here.

Is there any support for retaining this rule?

Jallan 04:34, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Comments

For any and all of those reason, I agree with deleting it. Besides that, it's not written very clearly. Maurreen 06:17, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oh dear, I added that in the hope that it would be used sensibly to avoid conflict rather than cause it. I'm all for a debate though and apologise for not running it through a consultation beforehand.

I disagree that it encourages the use of 'bogus, neutered English' as surely all words in a Wikipedian's standard lexicon are as 'authentic' as each other? It is up to the editor's personal choice as to the vocabulary he uses so whether or not people 'giggle' at it is a subjective decision. Is 'hue' really an intrinsicly funny word or does it have a valid role to play in certain sentences? Additionally I stressed that only consideration should be given as the advice can work in certain cases. I am not suggesting that Sulphur/Sulfur be moved to Brimstone but I note that Railroad and Railway redirect to Rail Transport. Some may giggle at the choice, but the practice of choosing consistent synonyms clearly exists and should be managed in some way.

Nor am I suggesting that all articles be rewritten in neutrally-spelt English, merely that the use of this system may in some cases reduce conflict in already contentious topics.

Is there any style guide that has to cope with numerous different regional orthographies? The wiki MoS has evolved in the face of differring styles from around the world whilst the style guides I have used in the past have been targeted at users of British or American English only. If we are breaking new ground in the subject by producing a style guide for all then past examples are invalid on this subject.

I think the example of the conflicts at White Guilt has more to do with the editor's choice of a poor synonym rather than a fault with the whole concept of choosing different words to make the text easier on the reader's eye. If colored/coloured is really the best word to choose then it should be used and spelt consistently.

As I say, I worded this as advice, that consideration should be given to the idea. No more than that. If the implementation needs tightening then I would be pleased to join in any effort to do this but I feel the idea has merit and although the style guide didn't mention it, this practice is occurring and needs to be acknowledged or things really will start happening in the manner of the Doomsday scenario Jallan describes. adamsan 09:07, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Because it says "consider", I see your point. But I've also seen "neuterization" of the language. I don't know what the solution is to the overall problem. That is, how we could get people not to get so excited about the issue of spelling and other national preferences. Maurreen 17:47, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But then how is 'hue' more neutered than 'colour/color'? I can't understand this premise that some words are blander than others. If you mean that the advice contributes to the impoverishment of the language, I would disagree. If an editor is encouraged to give more consideration to the vocabulary he is using then surely it will contribute to a more varied and diverse use of English?

I agree that there are wider issues here though. adamsan 18:10, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is one situation where I think a Google test is appropriate.

Hue: 2.9 million

Colour: 143 million

Color: 179 million

This indicates to me that people are more likely to use the word “colour” than “hue” by a factor of about 50 to 1. “Hue” in at least general contexts has no other possible merit over either spelling of the word. It would sound stilted and awkward if all instances of “color” or “colour” were changed to “hue.” Maurreen 18:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Incidentally, "Rail transport" isn't neutral. The U.S. version would be "Rail transportation". "Trains" might be better all around. Maurreen 18:47, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Trains" would not be acceptable to me - it's quite simply incorrect as a general form in British English. Contrast "train station" and "railway station" (the latter is the correct title in the British Isles and elsewhere). I should also point out, that it is simply not possible to acheive consensus on many topics. See rail terminology. The vocabulary for rail topics evolved almost completely separately in the US and UK (and even separate elsewhere). So topics (such as railroad tie vs. sleeper) simply have to be named one or the other. zoney ♣ talk 18:56, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree with getting rid of this rule. I have only ever seen it cited by spelling partisans who use it as a justification for replacing spellings they dislike. - SimonP 19:04, Nov 23, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that when it comes to things that need their own page titles then any attempt to regularise orthography fails horribly. And I am not suggesting that we do a Wiki-wide Find and Replace, like globally changing 'colour' to 'hue'; that would indeed be ridiculous. What I was hoping to achieve was to avoid low-level spelling conflicts when less important words like 'center' get needlessly changed to 'centre' in articles on..I don't know... Grasshoppers or something. By encouraging use of consistent synonyms (and thesaurus.com lists about 30 for centre as a noun alone) I hope that the wiki can produce articles where editing time is not wasted arguing about spelling. A possible side benefit is that editors will use more varied language, thereby widening everyone's vocabulary! Hooray! :-) adamsan 19:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A recommendation only to "consider" is hardly a recommendation. It could just as well be replaced by its opposite:

But if the spelling appears within the article text, normally it is not necessary to consider a consistent synonym such as focus or middle rather than center/centre.

This strongly implies that in some cases such consideration might have value (which is true) and appears to be closer to adamsan's intent as stated than what was written. I would find this far more acceptable.

But is there use in stating something so obvious when the number of times when it can be valuably employed are few and specialized and probably obvious.

"Railway" and "railroad" are different words, which is another issue, though in such cases forced attempts to find neutral synonyms are sometimes worth a giggle at tightrope attempts to balance two opposed usages. But such articles will normally use both terms in their respective enviroments, speaking of railroads in Britain and railways when talking of the United States, rather than banning the words altogether.

But that some few find color and center intolerable and some few find colour and centre intolerable should not influence most people's choice of words at all. Why should I consider using middle over centre or center only to placate spelling bigots, those who dispise one or the other of the spellings, who think a particular spelling is correct rather than merely conventional? And who else but spelling bigots care about the matter? Books appear world wide with words spelled variously and most people don't particularly notice the spelling in most of what they read. If the U.S. converted totally to British spelling, what real difference would it make? If Britain converted totally to U.S. spelling, what real difference would it make? People would still be writing and reading exactly the same words. Choice of a word should very rarely have to do with avoiding words that have more than one spelling. How many writers anywhere have ever normally avoided a word because it has more than one spelling?

Jallan 19:16, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good points. I agree that this cannot be enforced in a hard-and-fast way but disagree that it can only be employed on rare occasions; there are lots of examples of centre, labor, grey, licence and practise cropping up in article texts. I realise that the MoS prefers rules rather than recommendations however and if we can only put comments in it that refer to contextual things then this would be better off elsewhere. As to the spelling bigots, using a non-controversial spelling will keep them off your watchlist! I am not spelling bigot and like to respect the hard-fought conventions so far thought up. I am concerned at the time, effort and vitriol spent chopping and changing and I suppose my addition to the MoS looking for a way out of this problem. As for books, they have one author who can write what he wants, the wiki has lots of us jostling to edit away, all with our different Englishes. adamsan 19:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think there are incidences where using a synonym (or some other explanation of terms that are used) is particularly desirable. I'm thinking of words and phrases that are so peculiarly British or American or Australian, or whatever, that they have not entered into general International usage. (See List of British English words not used in American English; List of American English words not used in British English; List of words having different meanings in British and American English; Britishism.) Using words on these lists (without further explanation) will just confuse international readers - entirely if terms like "public school" are bandied about liberally.

Clearly this doesn't apply to "colour". Anyone understanding the word "colour" will also understand the word "color" and vice versa. So may I just that we change policy so that we advise either to avoid using words peculiar to a particular type of English or, failing that, to require explanation? jguk 22:01, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't think this very good piece of advice should be abandoned entirely. It's a good tool for compromise. Over at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion, we recently dealt with the athletes/sportspeople/sportspersons/whatever confusion by choosing "Olympic competitors" instead. Not only is the intended meaning conveyed unambiguously, but the new terminology has the potential of including Olympic teams, making it more useful.

Words like center/centre and colour/color are not good examples. Communication is not impeded by choice of one or the other. Your average American has no trouble with (and in fact may not notice) an occurence of colour. This technique is more useful with words like athletes, where the same word conveys very different information. Our goal should be mutual understanding. Spelling variations do not hinder understanding (usually), but other usage variations can.

jguk's reference to the lists of words specific to one variety of English was very appropriate. Those are the kinds of words that may require a compromise. Minor spelling variations do not. -[[User:Aranel|Aranel ("Sarah")]] 22:14, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This part of the style guide should be kept. It is a useful way to resolve edit conflicts over spelling. —Lowellian (talk)[[]] 03:45, Nov 24, 2004 (UTC)

I can see some value in resolving edit wars, and that might be worth a compromise in the style guide. But why can't edit wars be resolved using the general guidance on national preferences? Maurreen 04:39, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Maureen. This recommendation says nothing about words with different meanings, or different words with the same meaning. Those are entirely different issues.

The sentence, unlike the previous sentence, talks only about spellings and nothing else. Recommendations about the other issues are a different matter entirely and probably unnecessary.

But a bias against words which by accident of history have multiple spellings is objectively as arbitrary as a bias against words with double consonants or against words with the letter r. Attempting to write a passage avoiding words that have multiple spellings, or which have double consonants, or which contain the letter r are good writing exercises to encourage thinking about words and meanings and to encourage the discovery of new ways to put things. That is what such arbitrariness is good for. (And it can be very good for it.) But it should be left for such exercises.

Being concerned about words with multiple spellings is only an issue within Wikipedia because 1) Wikipedia allows different spellings for the same word within its compass and 2) because some users are at some times bothered by this inconsistancy when they notice it. Often they don't.

Yet adamsan has made clear he does not intend strong use of this rule. He is only inviting editors to consider the rule. Well, I consider what follows the word consider and reject it totally, which by that interpretation is total obedience to the rule. But that strictly literal interpretation is not adamsan's intent in creating the rule and surely not what most would consider to be following the rule. "Consider accepting Jesus as your Savior!" "Consider using sock puppets to win the argument!" "Consider giving to the Heart Fund!" "Consider writing in capital letters!". In such expressions consider is an rhetorical (and somewhat slippery) politeness, a way of alleviating the impact, but not the force, of the following recommendation. But the following recommendation still stands. And I don't feel that it lessens a harmful recommendation by preceding it with consider. One is not asking the editor only to consider. One is recommending.

Instead I rewrite radically without the rhetorical consider, taking into account adamsan's explanations:

In choosing words or expressions, where there are alternatives that are otherwise equally suitable, select one without multiple spellings.

I still disagree. This is a unique and unnatural constraint. We enter the realm of very silly political correctness, ~~favoring~~ preferring the spelling-neutral, even if we can only do so slightly. Why this bias?

If Wikipedia imposed a single system of spelling, we would be free of all fighting on the issue. That's one reason publishing houses and academic journals and individual publications usually do this. The difference between organization and organisation is an arbitrary, historic accident, and usually isn't worth the trouble of arguing. Far easier and convenient for almost everyone to arbitrarily impose one spelling or another and by that arbitrary and irrational and fascist restriction gain the unfettered freedom to not be concerned with debating about something as relatively unimportant and often unnoticed as the spelling.

We don't do this in Wikipedia. Wikipedia instead encourages multiple spelling systems with a bias towards a spelling systen used in the country about which an article is written (when the article is particuarly related to a single country) and otherwise generally following the spelling of the first main author of an article. There are other subtleties. But the philosophy is that multiple spellings are generally encouraged.

So conflict arises which would not arise under a system standardized on a single spelling. And had Wikipedia begun with a single spelling imposed, regardless of which one, I suspect most would accept whichever system was in place with little complaint and there would be no consensus to change. Worrying about spelling is not what most are here for and it might be much nicer to just gripe about not being able to spell the way we want instead of again and again and again having to spend time and energy defending our preferred spellings. But we do encourage multiple systems of spelling and so must accept the quarreling that goes with it. Individuals can, if they choose, simply ignore the matter, not caring about any spelling changes that might be made to their writing by others.

But suddenly, a unique rule appears, with a different philosopy, presumably to minimize the visual clashes of the different spelling systems and minimizing the arguing. The method is simple. Don't use words that have multiple spellings and then everyone will spell the same and there will be no clash of spelling systems and no arguments. Of course, in fact, nothing so drastic is possible. We don't have exact synonyms for many multiple spelling words. Some of those words are very common ones that we can't drop almost universally without seeming very stilted and artificial. But since every little bit helps, perhaps going some small way in that direction would be an improvement.

No.

A small way which would be hardly noticeable is not an improvement, if in fact we can very seldom unarguably find proper synonyms and synonymous expressions. And who wants to go a large way in that direction. (I will get into that later.)

But the price to pay, in either case, is another level of complexity to argue over.

Instead of accepting that the spellings color and cozy might appear in an article on the American west and the spellings colour and cosy in an article on modern Winchester, the editors are now supposed to also consider whether the words colo(u)r or co<s/z>y themselves should appear in either article, a consideration that goes against any previous recommended practice in Wikipedia and any recommended practice anywhere outside of Wikipedia.

Those who don't care much about spelling either way would now find the words they wrote being replaced by other words to pacify the potential spelling-warriors. Good English words like co<s/z>y would be banned from Wikipedia because one could always use something like comfortable and homely instead. Helpful lists of deprecated words would appear with appropriate synonyms and synonymous expressions beside them. Don't use color or colour unless absolutely necessary: use hue, tint, shade, chroma, glow, radiance, sheen, pallor. Never use center or center, use middle, central point, mid-point. Never use travel(l)ed, always journeyed. Never use flavo(u)r, always taste, or seasoning. Can you write a recommendation that would not reasonably be extended to this? Is this a good thing? This is what the current rule actually recommends, even as rewritten by me, without the oratorical consider. And I will not consider doing this. Do you think that others would not fight against anyone trying to impose such a general bias against normal English words? But that is what the rule calls for, replacement of word after word of standard English if synoynms can be found. That such substitutions might solve an individual spelling dispute here or there does not indicate a need for a rule encouraging such subsitutions as general practice. If two editors are so intent on forcing one or another spelling system on a particular article that the only compromise they can come to is banning words of mixed spelling from the article, I can think of another solution that would be less harmful to standard English use. Ban the editors. (Or flip a coin.) Otherwise this will spread like a virus. Article after article in this neutralized spelling with no words allowed which would break the forced neutrality that few editors have agreed on. An editor comes upon one of these articles, sees something that could be improved or should be added, unwitting actually uses a word that has more than one spelling (Horror!), and is jumped on. We now have have articles that are written using American spellings, using Canadian spellings favoring colour, using Canadian spellings favouring color, using British English spelling -ize, using British/Australian spelling -ise, and also now another set of articles in artificial word-biased spelling-neutral English in which most -o(u)r words, -l(l)- words, -re/er words, -i<s/z>e -n<s/c>e words, and (a)e words are forbidden. Word after word after word, forbidden to be used in Potato chips and in how many other articles?

In fact, differences in spelling are mostly hardly noticed. When adamsan added the new rule, did he notice that at that time the MoS already contained a mixture of spellings? How many others read the MoS and did not notice (or just grinned with amusement). I recently emended the MoS to impose a single spelling, more from a feeling that a style guide should follow its own rules than from any personal feeling that it was really necessary. Multiple spellings in a single article, despite being universally deprecated, generally don't do any harm, and are likely not to be noticed. It is notorious how difficult it is for many to notice differences in spellings within the same work, even when searching for them. How many can you spot?[4] In the current cleaned-up version only one remains, a purposeful one.

Jallan 04:58, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Puzzle

I found the spelling difference in the current style guide, but I cheated. Maurreen 05:44, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The quotation in the style guide

Material which is taken verbatim from another source generally deserves to noted as such. In the lead section of our style guide, attribution to The Chicago Manual of Style was removed, and I am going to restore it. Maurreen 11:52, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jguk has replaced this:

In this regard the following quote from The Chicago Manual of Style deserves notice: Rules and regulations such as these, in the nature of the case, cannot be endowed with the fixity of rock-ribbed law. They are meant for the average case, and must be applied with a certain degree of elasticity."

with this:

But rules on style (like not starting sentences with a conjunction) are made to be broken. They are not observed rigidly and they change with time. Any guide has its limitations, and where necessary or appropriate, they are diverged from.

I diagree with this change. For one thing, it is no improvement, there is no need. For another, saying Rules are made to be broken is much stronger than saying that rules aren’t rock-ribbed law. Maurreen 19:00, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The improvement I am seeking is to change the beginning of the article from having an academic and USian feel, to being neutral and inclusive. Since we ask all Wikipedians wherever they are and whatever their background to use this Manual of Style guide, it should adopt an inclusive approach. jguk 19:27, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The sentiment in the quotation is universal to every style guide I am familiar with and is not in the least bit "USian" (hmm, pretty "stylish" word) and the replacement wording was much weaker. There is plenty of "Britainian" sentiment in the style guide, including all the stuff about spelling and use of quotations, for instance. The qauotation has also been in the style guide since its very first iteration. As the paragraph two below says, don't make fundamental changes (such as replacing the epigraph) without discussion. Ortolan88 19:50, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC), original author/compiler of style guide

I've no idea what "Britainian"'s meant to mean. Maybe it's one of these purely American words that needs explaining to others. Anyway, my point is that I think the article should be neutral. Putting British comments in is hardly neutral from an Australian, South African, Indian, New Zealand, Canadian, Nigerian, Kenyan, etc. perspective. I'd happily get rid of all the references to British style guides too. Finally, a quotation from a style guide that is not adopted as the Wikipedia style is not fundamental, and neither are edits to it. After all, as we are constantly reminded: if you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly and redistributed at will, do not submit it. :) OK, I'm being a bit cheeky and a bit flippant. But everything can be improved, and making policy internationally neutral is an improvement. After all, you may have started the article, but can you as an American honestly say you (at least subconsciously) did not adopt a USian POV? jguk 20:27, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes, anything can be changed. And then changed back. And Jguk, because you are the person seeking the change, and the person at least apparently in the minority so far, the burden is on you to persuade others.

I'm not aware of anyone else offended by a quotation from a U.S. book. Are we to neutralize anything that is related to any country? Or set quotas?

I asked some time ago, early during your poll on "U.S." and serial commas, about your preference for what you call language neutrality. Neither you nor anyone else responded.

If you want language neutrality, I ask you to do that discussion. Maurreen 21:01, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

While I disagree with any intention to remove the statement because of any US/UK bias, it does seem silly to include a quotation from a style guide when the guide is not used for wikipedia, and it is just a seemingly minor paragraph. It seems to be offering a justification for this statement when none is needed. --NeilTarrant 21:11, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This is a trivial point, and I suspect you may have been partially ironic when you said "I've no idea what "Britainian"'s meant to mean" , but I think it was itself an ironic response to your use of the Wikipedia colloquialism / neologism "USian". [Although perhaps "UKian" would have been a better equivalent.] As for whether the quote should stay or go, here are my thoughts:

there is no "bias" inherent in quoting a particular style guide; it doesn't imply the superiority of that guide, or its country of origin.
nor is there any reason not to replace the quote with something better, if the quote is felt not to reflect the message intended.
however, the replacement used, as pointed out, produces quite a radical change in the tone or degree of the message, which warrants specific discussion. There is an old page called Wikipedia:Ignore all rules - a proposed rule that proved rather controversial; a lot of people feel that bending the rules (as implied by the original quote) is significantly different from breaking them (as implied by the revised line).
if we don't want to make this significant change, I don't see any reason not to keep the quote as is; sure, we could put it in the words of one or more Wikipedians, rather than one or more Chicagans, but really, why bother? - IMSoP 23:37, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I would also like to see the quote from / referral to an external US source removed. If necessary, a suitable replacement can be written (I'm not suggesting the replacement offered thus far is acceptable). zoney ♣ talk 23:56, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Chicago Manual of Style is to be used for deciding Wikipedia style, as are the other works referenced in the MoS. That is stated in the MoS in the section When All Else Fails. That the Chicago Manual of Style and other style guides agree on something has often been one reason why consenus has been reached on various issues of style. Where they disagree, then a special rule may be necessary in Wikipedia, or the matter may left up to individual editors to choose which style to follow. And the custom of quoting something which is especially well said from another work is a common one. jguk has continually attempted to change the meaning of passages in the MoS under guise of a trim. He wishes, it seems, to remove most indications of other works that may be consulted.

The MoS is not neutral. No prescriptive style guide is. Wikipedia's rules are not neutral. Had things been somewhat different when Wikipedia was set up, we would have somewhat different rules, perhaps worse, perhaps better, probably a bit of both. I have no problem with quotations from Australian style guides or South African style guides or a newspaper style guide from anywhere in the world, if what is said is is well said and appropriate. But there is no such thing as internationally neutral policy. Spelling, grammar rules, punctuation rules, and vocabulary differ from region to region and according to different kinds of writing and according to individual house style.

The Chicago Manual of Style is one of the most prestigeous style guides in the world for general writing and gains authority because it is so widely referenced. It is so widely referenced because it is very complete and very, very good, not because of any compulsion to reference it. A decision not to recognize The Chicago Manual of Style is no more neutral than one that recognizes it. That the Oxford Guide to Style is not listed, might be seen as non-neutral. So list it. But then what of Canadian style guides, and Australian style guides. So list one from each country. But which guide for each country? Then there are other guides as well. You could list every style guide known in the world, which would be silly, and the listing would still not be neutral, as it would suggest all had the same authority, which would be very non-neutral position to take.

Replacing a quotation from The Chicago Manual of Style with one's own words, is anything but neutral, especially when a change of meaning occurs. Replacing it with the words of any particular Wikipedian would similarly not be neutral.

Since jguk disagrees so greatly with the MoS as it stands, perhaps he might draft a complete new guide without worrying about the old one, remembering that one way is often as good as another, and that therefore the amount of work to change Wikipedia on any single policy to another that is no better itself speaks against any radical changes in style.

Jallan 06:05, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Jguk's changes

Is anyone interested in discussing Jguk's recent changes? Please see the history: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style&action=history. Maurreen 11:09, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Or see diff between the versions of 18:55 26 Nov 2004 and 11:06 27 Nov 2004.

Support

I totally agree with them. violet/riga (t) 11:14, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I support all the changes visible in a diff between the versions of 18:55 26 Nov 2004 and 11:06 27 Nov 2004. —AlanBarrett 13:45, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the diff above. zoney ♣ talk 20:28, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Oppose

I reject these totally. Separate changes should be discussed separately, not altogether in a package. One thing at a time, please. I totally disagree with removing references to source material. We should have more referencest, rather than less. Document your sources. There are changes within this I do agree with, but am tiring of Jguk mixing of changes of different kinds together in a package. And is it Jguk's plan that throughout the manual of style, whenever mentioned, both period and full stop must be replaced by perfiod/full stop or full stop/period or similar concatinations? I am happy with either period and full stop. Neither bothers me. And the MoS, of all places, should not display such bad style as to repeat the synonyms again and again. It's rather insulting to the intelligence of the reader. And it looks like pandering to chauvinism. Jallan 23:08, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I concur with Jallan. Further:

Saying "Fowler has guidelines for this" is weaker than "Fowler has good guidelines for this".
Combining "full stop" and "period" as he has done does not follow the spirit of the style guide in that either British or American English is acceptable. It doesn't say both are required. Nor does it follow this: "If an article is predominantly written in one type of English, aim to conform to that type rather than provoking conflict by changing to another."
Changing the section on serial commas from "is used" to "should be used" weakens it.
About using periods to abbreviate "United States": It is weakened by deleting "we want one uniform style on this".

I'd also like to point out that Jguk recently held a poll about the serial commas and "U.S." He failed to gain a majority. This is even though the poll was biased by him giving rationale for his proposals without giving equal prominence to any rebuttals.

If Jguk wants to weaken the style guide, or change it so it doesn't follow its own style, that calls for discussion. Maurreen 04:08, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Let's work to an acceptable alternative to the quote at the top

Currently the Manual of Style starts with:

In this regard the following quote from The Chicago Manual of Style deserves notice: Rules and regulations such as these, in the nature of the case, cannot be endowed with the fixity of rock-ribbed law. They are meant for the average case, and must be applied with a certain degree of elasticity.

In line with the discussion above, let's see if we can write our own Wikipedia version of this. Ie a version that retains the sentiment, but without the need to make an outside reference.

I'll start off, perhaps other editors can make tweaks as they see appropriate. jguk 11:21, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Suggested rephrasing (please suggest other options below)

The rules in this Manual of Style are not set down as permanent, fixed rules. They do not discuss every scenario that you will come across and must therefore be applied with elasticity. As both Wikipedia and English usage continue to develop, these rules will also change with time

Puzzlement and question

I do not understand or accept jguk's bias against external references, in an encyclopedia of all things. And I do not accept that semi-plagiarism is superior to quoting an original, especially when the point of the quotation is partly that it is well said.

That semi-plagiarism unfortunately does occur very commonly in Wikipedia is not a reason to openly encourage it.

What is not acceptable about the passage as it stands? Is it that is an external reference? There is no policy against that. Indeed, external references are encouraged. Is it that happens to be to a U.S. source? Then say no to the chauvinism that cares about such things. If not these reasons, what is bothersome about the original?

Jallan 23:34, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Further, there is no consensus to remove the quote.

I also second Jallan's suggestion: If Jguk finds the current style guide so disagreeable, it could be useful for him to draft a new version. Maurreen 03:16, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"Neutrality"

Jguk, because your preference for what you call "neutral language" appears to be at the heart of much of what you do, why don't you have that discussion?

This is not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know. Maurreen 11:49, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style

See also

Miscellaneous archives

Topical archives

Style guide philosophy

New template

Draft trim and restructuring

Comments

Right floating TOC

Multiple links to the same target

Punctuation as punctuation

Italics or quotation marks

Spelling: collections of articles

Links: bold and italics

Proposal to remove consistent synonym recommendation.

Comments

Puzzle

The quotation in the style guide

Jguk's changes

Support

Oppose

Let's work to an acceptable alternative to the quote at the top

Suggested rephrasing (please suggest other options below)

Puzzlement and question

"Neutrality"