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This is the worst written article i have yet come across. It does not cite any of its references, its very poorly written, and most of it seems to be origional research. This whole article may have to be re-written. When I have more time, I will fix some of the grammatical mistakes, and try to find sources and try to make the article less POV. But seriously, this article is really poorly written, this may take the efforts of many users to revamp.Khosrow II16:30, 16 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The map
to make the map i put up there, i used many different maps including the one Zaparojdik wants to put it. do not take my map out again unless you have good reason because i used the map you want when i made my map, including other more reliable maps.Khosrow II16:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sən laftan anlamirsən?
Perharps Azerbaijani will be useful to understand me. The reason is its not shows right! so I'll remove it always and I very laughed when i see Iranian Azerbaijan :) Zaparojdik19:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Let's play nice people. It is a better map than the old one although it has obvious problems. However it has to go because it is original research - you made it. Nice. But get it published and then you can add it. Wikipedia policy is no OR. Lao Wai17:09, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
thanks to Khoikhoi for asking my opinion. On Iran this is a accurate map: [6]. The map is very recent. Note Northern Khorasan is majority Kurdish/Persian speaking. Probably from the same site, you can get other maps of turkey, Iraq and etc. and hopefully the dispute will be resolved. The map is from 2004. --Ali doostzadeh18:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's not right ethnic map of Central Asia, becase there Azerbaijan seems %99 others with Slavic people. Don't you know we speak almost same language with Azerbaijanis. It's entirely laughable Khosrow II! Zaparojdik22:35, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I think we can get this resolved.. Already I showed a map for Iran. Now for China this is the right map: [7]. For the Caucus, this is the right map:[8], for Turkey this is the right map:[9] ..--Ali doostzadeh19:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Ali, I used the maps from Lib to create my map. That is why my map should be used, because I used authoritive sources. And yes, I do know where Yakutia is, I will change that too.Khosrow II20:01, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The map is great and I appreciate all the effort people are putting in, but it is Original Research. The Wikipedia is rule is No Originial Research - see, if I can get it to work - WP:NOR. You have to find a map that someone else has published on the web or in a book that is fair use. Lao Wai08:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Then Khosrow II, please understand. Wikipedia forbidden original researchs. You must get it from other reliable sources. If you'll continue to revert it, I think you will be violation.Zaparojdik12:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's original reseacrh because this map editer says so, I couldn't see Kosovo, Bosnia, Germany, Altai, Tuva, Greece's West Thrace, Estonia but the old map which made by German Wikipedia shows all of them. Wikipedia is place for right information!Zaparojdik15:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well the fact that the user has made the map himself is a little bit of a give away isn't it? I agree that maps are images and images are treated less severely than other forms of original researhc, but the rule is: "This policy in a nutshell:Articles may not contain any previously unpublished arguments, concepts, data, ideas, statements, or theories. Moreover, articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published arguments, concepts, data, ideas, or statements that serves to advance a position.
"Wikipedia is not the place for original research. Citing sources and avoiding original research are inextricably linked: the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources which provide information that is directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say."
I would need more information on the "credible" sources used and the fact that I can clearly see Iran's borders on what ought to be a linguistic mish-mash is not promising. So perhaps we could ask our Iranian colleague to cite some sources? Lao Wai13:45, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm tired to say, THIS MAP IS NOT RIGHT AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! There are many Turkic speaking peoples in Kosovo, Bosnia, Germany, Altai, Tuva, Greece's West Thrace, Estonia, but what the map shows?...Zaparojdik17:08, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What on earth are you people talking about! This is absolutely ridiculous. The map that is up now is wrong. My map will be going up again shortly.Khosrow II15:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The new map with more details and from reliable sources.
This is map taken by French Wikipedia, it shows detailed Turkic peoples (Like names of Turkic peoples) and totaly right. Sincerely --Zaparojdik20:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, I've been watching the edit war about the map for some time. I should say that I think both maps (the one with the German filename and the one by User:Khosrow II) were quite bad, in my opinion. I say this without reference to the areas they designate as Turkic, they were just looking bad, in terms of visual quality and illustrative properties.
I think the recently uploaded map originating from the French version of the article (which has been there since April 2005) is a lot better, since it makes the effort to illustrate the people / language groups with different colors and labels. The labels are very hard to read with the current version of the file, downsized to a width of 800 pixels before uploading, which I consider a mistake. I suggest this to be replaced with the full resolution version of the file on fr:Image:Carte peuples turcs.png in which the labels are clearly legible (even if they are in German). If a consensus can be reached for using this map, I can undertake the work to translate the labels into English.
I express my most sincere regards to both User:Zaparojdik and User:Khosrow II, and urge them not to engage in another revert war. In the worst case, if there are again any disputes on the area considered Turkic, at least try to go with the illustrative version of the map (I mean, the one from French article) and try to make modifications on that one. Peace, Atilim Gunes Baydin18:55, 22 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article claims that these 2 dynasties were Turkic. This contradicts the information given in these articles. Tājik03:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well not that I can see it doesn't. And even if it does, that just means that article is wrong. Anyone can pick up the Babarnama and see Babar describe himself as Turkic-speaking. Lao Wai09:39, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
We've discussed this many times, and any claim that Babur was a Turk is wrong. In fact, his own claim cannot be the deffinition of his heritage, because - if that were the case - then this would mean that the Seljuqs and Ghaznavids were Persians and not Turks, because they themselvs claimed to be Persians and descendants of the old Persian kings.
Babur's family-tree is well known. Hi sfather Omar Sheikh was a descendant of Miran Shah, and thus of Timur. Timur was a Berlas Mongol, and after his father's death, the chief of that tribe.
Babur's mother was a direct descendant of Genghis Khan. That's why his ancestors and descendants became known as "Mughals" ("Mongols") - the dynasty's self-designation was "Gurkani", the Persianized form of the original Mongolian "kürügän", "son in law (of Genghis Khan)".
In this case, THIS article is wrong and needs to be corrected. The Mughal emperors may have had some Turkic ancestors, but all in one - the definite male linage - was evidently Mongol. Their culture and language (meaning the native tongue of the ruling Shahs) was evidently Persian, later becomming more and more Indian. I see no reason why the Mughals should be mentioned in this article, which only deals with both ethnic ancient Turks and turcophone peoples of Anatolia and Caucasus. The Mughals were neither turcophone, nor Turks by ethnicity.
If we have discussed it many times we are going to have to discuss it again. Babur's claims as to what he was is obviously the only thing that counts. You can't tell dead people what they were or were not. The only thing that matters is what he thought he was and what language he spoke. Which was Turkic although higher culture used Persian or Arabic. I don't care what the Seljuqs claimed to be but let me loudly doubt that they were claimed to be Persians or the descendents of Persian Kings. The Barlas were Turkic, not Mongols. As the article says "His father Taraghay was head of the tribe of Barlas, a nomadic Turkic-speaking tribe of Mongol origin that traced its origin to the Mongol commander Qarachar Barlas." Political power on the steppe after Genghiz depended on claiming a Mongol origin, and perhaps Babur's Mother was a Mongol, but all the Mongols in the West had been assimilated to the Turks by that stage so it is irrelevant. Babar didn't even like Mongols. In any event Mongols are not Persian. The Mughals did become Perso-phone and Urdu-speaking over time I agree. But the early Mughals were Turkic speaking. Lao Wai12:16, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion does not need to be started all over again, because the previous discussion with real experts (one of them being professor at Oxford) and real authoritative sources (Encyclopaedia of Islam, Encyclopaedia Iranica, Encyclopaedia Britannica) have all come to the conclusion that Babur was a Mongol. You are correct that power in Central-Asia depended on Genghis Khan's "authority", but you also miss the point that since the word Mongol had become insulting, the Mongolian-looking rulers of Central Asia were not able to claim descent from Prophet Muhammad or Persian kings, and were more or less forced to claim to be "Turks". In fact, this is the only reason why Babor, the devout Muslim, had chosen the term "Turk" instead of "Mongol", his real origin.
Your doubts regarding Ghaznavids (Sebüktegin, founder of the Ghaznavids, claimed to be direct descendant of Yazdgard III; this is even reported by medieval historian Ferishta), and Seljuqs (who also claimed to be descendants of the Sassanids and of the legendary Iranian hero Siawush) are not important at all, because - again - authoritative sources have been provided (in this case Encyclopaedia Iranica and Encyclopaedia of Islam). Tājik12:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you are going to make unsupported claims it will have to be done all over again. Who did you have a prior discussion with at Oxford? His ancestry might have been partly Mongol, but there is no denying that he did not speak the language and did not consider himself one. As you say, the term was insulting. And you precisely miss the point about the Timurids - they could not claim Arab or Persian descent, but they could, as Turks, claim Mongol descent. They were Turks, but Turks who claimed to be Mongols for political purposes. It is absurd to call Babur a devout Muslim. I am not much interested in arguing the origins of the Ghaznavids as they are irrelevant here. If you think those sources support you quote them, don't wave them like magic wands. Lao Wai14:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Your claims about the language of the Mughals is again wrong. Babur was the ONLY Turkic-speaking Mughal. His son Humayun, being born to a Persian mother (a noble from Kabul), was already Persian-speaking. Babur's daughter Gulbadan Begum, the author of the famous Humayun-Nama, is regarded by many as one of the most important female poets of Persian language. The de facto rule of Bayram Khan, himself a half-Persian Turcoman from Iran, was the last important Turcoman official at the Mughal court. Tājik12:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well we have established that you were wrong and Babur was a Turk. Good. Progress. A noble from Kabul? Prove that she was a Persian. Salman Rushdie is a crap writer in English, but that doesn't make him American.
Regarding Babur, let me qoute the Encyclopaedia Iranica, which is an authoritative source:
"... His origin, milieu, training, and culture were steeped in Persian culture and so Babor was largely responsible for the fostering of this culture by his descendants, the Mughals of India, and for the expansion of Persian cultural infleunce in the Indian subcontinent, with brilliant literary, artistic, and historiographical results ..." (F. Lehmann, "Zaher ud-Din Babor - Founder of Mughal empire", Encyclopaedia Iranica, p. 320-323) Tājik12:58, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, nice. Steeped in Persian culture is not the same as being Persian. This simply shows that he was not Persian. Nice impartial encyclopedia there by the way. Lao Wai14:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Tajik, that is why I took out the section, because its useless, and its wrong, however, one of these other users put it back in. Also, this whole article is really badly written, and full of POV, and the grammer is not very good in some places. I was planning to re-write a lot of the article, but I would appreciate it if I had your help in doing so.Khosrow II13:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of it is POV and unsourced. Whoever wrote this article must have been new at Wiki at the time, because this article is one of the worst written that I have so far come across.Khosrow II14:22, 26 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, stop "cutting" messages and instead write your answer underneith the previous texts. Secodly, I do not have to prove that the Encyclopaedia Iranica is an excellent and authoritative scholarly work. Those who reject this work because of their own nationalistic motivs only prove that they are pushing for POV. Tājik22:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Third: I have not claimed that Babur was Persian. This is not the point in here. The point is that he was NOT a Turk. Since you (and all the rest of the amatuers who calim everything and everyone a "Turk") claim that Babur was a Turkl only because he wrote his memoires in Chaghatay-Turkic (totally different from modern-day Turkish), this should be a counter-argument, because - usuing your logic - this would also automatically qualify him for being "Persian". Fourth: It's funny that in case of Babur and Timur, you only focus on their language (totally ignoring the fact that Timur himself was much more proud of his Mongol heritage, gave all of his children Persian names, and that he ordered his biography to be written in Persian), while totally ignoring that besides Babur, NO other Mughal was Turkic-speaking. Humayun (himself half-Persian - believe it or not! - and having a pure Persian name) had deffinitly a Persian wife (from Shah Tahmasp's harem). This is even reported by Babur's daughter, Gulbadan Begum. Tājik22:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Now I am having trouble following this. I am claiming thta Babar was a Turk because he wrote and spoke a Turkic language. How would that qualify his as Persian? Notice what the article actually says, as opposed to what you seem to be talking about. It only says that the Ruling Family was Turkic by descent. Which they were. Now you claim that Humayun has a Persian wife? Based on the fact that she came from the Turkic Shah Tahmasp's Harem? Wouldn't you expect to find a Turk in a Turkic ruler's harem? There were no Persian rulers in Iran until the last century. Lao Wai08:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
None of your claims actually qualify to define the Mughals (= "Mongols") as Turks. It seems that you only pick up those points that support your claim, while you very obviously try to distract from the many more poweful arguments disproving your claims. Tājik22:44, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually they do. Not that the article makes that claim. What powerful arguments come close to disproving my claim? Lao Wai08:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If language defines ethnicity, then the Mughals - starting with Humayun - were deffinitly Persians, and later Hindi. But if genetics and the male chromosomes define ethnicity, than Babur's (and Timur's) main ethnicty was Mongol. That's exactly why the Mughals became known as "Mughals" (="Mongols") and not "Turks".
Well no. Genetics and the Y gene, if used to define ethnicity, would show that the Timurids were one of the Turkic tribes that was incorporated into the Mongol Empire. If language does the fact that the Mughals became assimilated into the Persianate world of Muslim India is a problem. However none of this matters because what the article says - that the Ruling Family was Turkic by descent - is unarguable and you have not even tried. Lao Wai08:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Since you are still "cutting" my messages, I assume that you are relatively new in Wikipedia. And since you seem not to take the EI serious, I guess that you are just one of the many other amateurs who have messed up many articles related to Turks.
1) So all of your claims are based on Babur's written memoires. You claim that he was Turk, because he wrote in Chaghatay Turkic. In this regard, you have totally contradicted yourself, because in your previous message, you used exactly this argument to claim that "Babur's children were not Persians, because written languages do not define ethnicity". As I have told you before, Babur's ancestors (including Timur himself) and Babur's descendants (most of all his daughter Gulbadan Begum) wrote their most improtant pieces in Persian. In fact, his daughter wrote the famous "Humayun-Nama" in Persian. But this does not turn them into "Persians", the same way Babur's autobiography does not turn him into a "Turk".
2) I do not know where you got the idea that Babur's ancestors were "Turks", but you are totally wrong. It is a well-researched and known fact that they were MONGOLS. His father's family, the Gurkani Chaghatayids (popularly known as "Timurids") were the chief family of the Berlas Mongols. Babur's mother was the daughter of the Khan of Tashkent, and a direct descendant of Genghis Khan. In both way, he was a descendant of Mongols. It just happened that his family had lost its original Mongolian tongue and later switched to Chaghatay Turkic, later to Persian, and after Babur to Hindi. In all cases, the ethnicity was Mongol. That's why his descendants became known as "Mughals", which means "Mongols" in Persian. You are totally disqualifying yourself by ignoring these facts. You only pick up one point and try to "hide" all the rest.
3) Your claim that the Safavids were "Turks" (which is really nothing new, since Turks claim everyone and everything; 1 year ago, the Turkish minister of culture even claimed that Prophet Muhammad was a Turk), they did not regard themselvs as "Turks", and they are not regarded being "Turks" by leading scholars. I do not have to explain this to you. The article Safavid dynasty is an excelent source for this. Read it yourself! As for Humayun's wife, Hamida Banu Begum, her origin and her ancestors are also well known. Her father was Shaikh 'Ali Akbar Jāmi (as the name suggests, a Persian from Jām near Herat; see also Jāmī), her mother was Māh Afrāz Begum. In this case, you should read Gulbadan Begum's "Humayunnama"! And the fact that Akbar was raised as a Persian-speaker, did not know any Chaghatay Turkic (in fact, it was Akbar who ordered to translate the Baburnama into Persian!), and from then on the Mughal empire was totally Persianized, further undermines his mother's Persian origin.
4) Your claim that the "ruling family was of Turkic descent" is WRONG (and - honestly - I really do not know why you don't get it). Babur was TURKIFIED, the same way his descendants became PERSIANIZED - in both cases, the ORIGIN of the family was MONGOL, paternal AND maternal. You are not being honest in this case, because when it comes to the Persian-speaking and culturally totally Persianized Mughals of India, you keep go on claiming them "of Turkic descent". But when it comes to Babur and Timur, you change your viewpoint, try to hide their original Mongolian descent (of which they - especially Timur - were so proud of), and only concentrate on their language. So, you use two contradicting methodes to give these 2 dynasties a modern ethnicity, in both cases you only pick up the version that makes them "Turks".
5) Please stup "cutting" my messages and putting your own unsined comments in between of my comments. Instead, youse the numbers 1-4.
That section is irrelevant and way POV. For example, it says that the monarchs were Turkic, thats not true. They were of mixed Turkic, Mongolic, and Iranic origin for the most part. Secondly, it says that because pakistani's claim descent that they are descendents of the Mughals, that there is genetic relationship between them and Turkic peoples. If that isnt one of the stupidest thigns I have ever read, then I dont know what is. Where is the source for this? Some crazy Pan Turk website?Khosrow II15:26, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is neither irrelevant nor POV. Iyt is factually true and the Mughals have as much right to be in the history section as the Ottomans or Safavids or Qajars or any other Turkic dynasty. It does not say a single word that you claim. Let me quote:
The Mughals were the Muslim rulers of India whose Ruling family claimed to be descended from Genghiz Khan and the Mongolians. However the Mughal Ruling family were Timurids, that is descended from Timur and so, along with many of their followers, were Turkic by descent. Many Indian and Pakistani Muslims claim descent from the Mughals and so they share some genetic material with the Turkic peoples, but they generally speak Urdu, a non-Turkic, Indo-Aryan language.
So it does not claim they were Turkic, even though they were by descent. It does not claim a "genetic relationship", it claims that they share some genetic material. This is a statement of fact. I do not much care what you think is crazy. Myself, I find Iranian chauvanism crazy and exceedingly tiresome. You notice that sources are thoroughly provided. It is one of the most sourced parts of Wikipedia I have ever seen. Now given that it is factually true and heavily foot noted on the one hand, and your complaints are utterly spurious, no matter how much I try and assume good faith, on the other, your constant reversions are amounting to vandalism. Please stop it unless you have some evidence that a single word of that passage is false. All you do is alter it for transparently political ends. Produce some evidence please or go away. Lao Wai16:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Find sources, then we can include thosse statements. This section is clearly POV, and does not belong in the article in its current condition. The Mughal monarchs were not only of Turkic descent and there is not genetic relationship between modern day Pakistani's and India's with Turkic peoples. Go somewhere else to spread these kinds of lies. Never have I read such a ludicrous section in Wikipedia. By the wya, the only sourced part of that section is the part where it says they were Mongolians.Khosrow II16:57, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If you bothered to read it you would notice it is thoroughly sourced. As I said. What POV is it pushing? Every single statement is a statement of fact. It is irrelevant if they were also of some other background because no one is disputing it. The article certainly is not. There is self evidently some minor amount of Turkic genetic material floating around Pakistan and to deny it is irrational. I don't much like the claim myself, but it is true. What lies? You have yet again failed to provide any evidence for your objections or even to have made it clear what they are. If you continue to vandalise the page like this I will ask for it to be protected and an admin to mediate. Lao Wai17:05, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Where were the sources? Please, dont even say that the source was that book listed on the bottom of the paragraph. I believe in facts, and as long as you dont present them, then there isnt much to discuss.Khosrow II17:31, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps you should read articles before you delete large chunks?
The Mughals were the Muslim rulers of India whose Ruling family claimed to be descended from Genghiz Khan and the Mongolians [17]. However the Mughal Ruling family were Timurids, that is descended from Timur and so, along with many of their followers, were Turkic by descent[18][19]. Many Indian and Pakistani Muslims claim descent from the Mughals and so they share some genetic material with the Turkic peoples, but they generally speak Urdu, a non-Turkic, Indo-Aryan language.
Ref: Carter V. Findley, The Turks in World History, (Oxford University Press, October 2004) ISBN 0-19-517726-6
I count three websites and a book for a section that is all of three sentences long. That is excessively footnoted. There is not much to discuss here because your agenda appears to be simple vandalism. If you object to a single claim in that section please let me know what it is and what your evidence is. So far all you have done is waste my time and vandalise the page. Now I have asked several times for some evidence and you have still failed to produce a shred of evidence. Are you going to do so now? Lao Wai17:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, I dont dispute that the Mughals were founded by a man who claimed Mongolian descent, that is fact. Also, I dont dispute that the Timurids had power in the Mughal empire. What I'm saying is that the Mughal Monarhs were Mongolic-Turkic-Iranic rulers, not just one or the other. Also, were is the source about the genetic relationship?Khosrow II17:49, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
He probably claimed to be the son-in-law of the Mongol Ruling house but let's leave that alone. So the Timurids ruled. Who cares if they were Mongolic-Turkic-Iranic rulers? Who disputes it? No one says they were one or the other. Presumably, it was not my claim of course, it is in the Findley book. I will look it up and let you know. Lao Wai18:34, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well then if so, why does the section claim that most of them were of Turkic descent? Infact, most of them took Persian wives... Also, I have yet to see the source for the genetics...Khosrow II19:48, 16 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the Mughals had actually Indian wives, some at the beginning had Persian and Armenian wives. But that's not the point. It is a well-researched and well-known fact that Zahir ud-Din Muhammad Babur was a Mongol, both on his father's side (Berlas Chaghatayid Mongols) and on his mother's side (Mongol Khans of Tashkent). The reasons why Babur called himself "Turk", was because he needed the support of his veteran Turkic army after he was defeated in Samarqand by the Uzbeks, and because the Uzbeks were already considered "pure descendants of Genghis Khan", so he needed an "alternative origin" for himself against the Uzbeks.
"Mughal" is the name given to the dynasty by Persians and Indians - that's because they KNEW that the Mughals were Mongols. The dynasty itself used the name "Gurkani", the Persianized form of the original Mongolian word "kürügän", meaning "son-in-law [of Genghis Khan]" - due to Timur's marriage into Geghis Khan's family.
In this regard, the "Mughals" have actually no connection to the article "Turkic peoples". If you take a look at the intro, "Turkic peoples" are people who speak a Turkic language an/or have some ancestoral cultural traits. The Mughals were neither Turkic-speaking (except for Babur), nor had they any connections or interest to/in Turkic culture. Their language was Persian (and later Urdu), their culture Persian (and later Indian), their identity was Indo-Persian and Islamic.
The Mughals would rather fit into the Persian people article than in here. Yet, we decided not to name them "Persians" because of the fact that they were not Persians ... they were Mongols: not Persians, not Turks, not Indians.
I agree that once they were in India most of them had Indian mothers. So what? It may be well researched, although I doubt you could provide a shred of evidence that the Barlas were not in fact Turkic-speaking, but it is not a fact. The Timurids claimed descent from Genghiz but were Turkic. He called himself Turkic because he was - it was his native language after all. And remind me again, Babur means "beaver" in which language? Persian? Urdu? He spent most of his early career fighting his cousins the Uzbeks. He never once denied that he was related to them nor did he ever deny he was of Turkic origin. I can reach over and pick up the Baburname if you give me a page number where he says otherwise. Yes. Gurkhan. Son-in-law. When the Mongols made Genghizid origins a prerequisite for rule in Central Asia, Turks like Timur had to marry into the Mongol Imperial House to get some credibility among Mongols. The title shows they were Turks, not Mongols. No one is denying that they had some degree of Iranian and Mongol origins. Ethnicity is a Western obsession, not a Central Asian one. But the Timurids remain of Turkic origin. I think you will find that more Mughals than Babur spoke Turkic, but the Mughals share more than that with other Turkic dynasties - you only have to look at government in Ottoman Turkey, the Saffavid or Qajar lands, and Mughal India to see many shared institutions. They remain non-Mongols no matter how many times you claim otherwise. If you think they are please cite a source. Lao Wai10:39, 17 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The Berlas were not Turks, but Mongols. The word "Berlas" (or "Birlas") itself is Mongolian, meaning "strong". The Mongol origin of the Berlas as well as Timur's origin (through his father Taraghay - which is a Mongolian name) is well researched and well-known. The source (from the famous Encyclopaedia of Islam) is given in the article Timur.
After many centuries in Central Asia, the Berlas had given up their ancesteral language (Mongolian) in favour of the lingua franca of the region, which at that time was Chaghatay Turkic. That language was once again changed to Persian, and later to Urdu.
And the Uzbeks were not Babur's "cousins" ... in fact, according to his own biography, he did not even know the origin of the Uzbeks. It was later revealed that the Sheybanids considered themselvs descendants of Genghis Khan.
"Marrying into a Mongol family" does not mean that they were not Mongols themselvs. And their claim to be "Turkic" (in fact, Babur was the ONLY ONE who claimed to be a Turk) does not mean anything. The Ghaznavids and Seljuqs claimed to "be Persians and direct descendants of the Sassanids", yet, it is a well-researched and well-known fact that both Ghaznavids and Seljuqs were Turkic in origin, although not Turkic in language.
Babur's autobiography was written in a time when Babur had lost EVERYTHING except a few veteran Turkic soldiers from Andijan. When he reached Tajik-dominated Badakhshan, many Tajik warriors joined his army, and later, many Afghans and other Muslims joined his quest against the "infidles in India". Babur's expression "Turk" is rather a reference to his Muslim faith than to his origin, since "Mongol" was a synonym for "infidle" at that time, and everyone knew that he was not a "Sart" or "Tajik" (both meaning Persian). So, the only expression left for Babur was "Turk" - that's it!
Your entire claim about "Mughals being Turks" is their dynasty's founder Babur, who happened to be a native Chaghatay-speaker. After Babur, no other Mughal was interested in Turkic. Not even Babur's daughter Gulbadan Begum who wrote her famous "Humayun-Nama" in Persian and not Turkic. Humayun's son, Akbar the Great, did not even know Chaghatay Turkic. That's why he ordered one of his very few Turkic servants to translate the Babur-Nama into Persian.
You are deffinitly giving too much credit to the word "Turk" ... except for Babur's mother-tongue, nothing else about the Mughals was "Turkic".
In this regard, let me quote the respected and authoritative Encyclopaedia Iranica (F. Lehmann, "Zaher ud-Din Babor - Founder of Mughal empire", Encyclopaedia Iranica, p. 320(-323)):
"... [Babor's] origin, milieu, training, and culture were steeped in Persian culture and so Babor was largely responsible for the fostering of this culture by his descendants, the Mughals of India, and for the expansion of Persian cultural infleunce in the Indian subcontinent, with brilliant literary, artistic, and historiographical results. ..."
No, this map is horribly made. It is inaccurate and contradicts reliable sources. Look at the sources I used to make my map, pretty reliable. If we get to have two maps on every wikipedia articles expressing every point of view, do you know how hectic that would be? Lets also have the map that includes Kurds as Turkic speakers, how about that for a third map?Khosrow II00:51, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Map original research warning
If one of the editors has prepared that map, that is pure original research, it can be removed immediately per Wiki policies WP:OR.. It concerns a contested topic, not like the picture of a street in a city, or the picture of a map, therefore editors don't have a right to publish their own materials in Wiki as they constitute their own theses in a contested topic.. The other map is sourced from a non-Turkish German academic research, therefore it carries thousand times more weight than that map, which, in the eyes of Wiki policies, has no weight at all.. Pls see [[20]]. Baristarim00:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Yep it is, [WP:OR] explicitly bans the use of sources created by users that are synthesis of other sources, your map is still original research.. Please read the policy.. Baristarim01:01, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What the hell is this khosrow? [27] You have been doing this for ages about every article to recruit meatpuppets.. once again under attack?? How dare you judge the contributions or efforts of other users like this? STOP, if you don't and this continues, I will be reporting to u and the rest of your gang to admins.. Baristarim01:05, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What are you doing? Vandalizing other pages now? Combining reliable maps to make a map that cannot be found on the internet is not against Wikipedia rules.Khosrow II01:22, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It is u who is being disruptive, you vandalized my balanced edit to C of OE article because it didnt mention your great country.. No page on wiki belongs to a particular person, I can take down inflammatory, disruptive, meatpupetting comments on persian noticeboard without having to ask your permission.. I hope that you understand that.. As for the map, it is still original research, the other one is also sourced material, u cannot say it is inaccurate and contradics reliable sources. what you were trying to say was it doesnt fit my vision of the world, therefore I have a problem with that.. It is from a German source, so it fits more than the criteria for inclusion, your map is OR coz it is your map, please understand that too.. Find a similar map showing the turkic-speaking peoples.. Baristarim01:35, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, what is the source for the other map that you think is so great. Second of all, the article about the Culture of the Ottoman Empire is just that, about the culture of the Ottoman Empire. Arabic and Iranian culture was the culture of the Ottoman Empire wether you like it or not, and I will be adding to that article, and this time I will bring up a tremendous amount of sources so that you wont be able to start another revert war.Khosrow II01:37, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
According to Baristarim, the Libraries of the University of Texas is not a reliable source... By the way, Im still waiting for the source of the map you claim is the accurate one Baristarim. By your definition, wouldnt that also be OR?Khosrow II02:02, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, if there cant be a source established for that one, please take it down.. First of all contact the user that uploaded that image (since it wasnt me), then ask him.. If he cannot come up with the source, delete it.. I dont understand why u r assuming that I am unreasonable, please chill dude.. You still havent understood the logic behind my edit to COE, I was really trying to find a solution, u should assume good faith by others.. And I am telling u again, dont call me pan-turkist again.. Please cool it and speak with a more respectful tone, and especially try to be constructive.. BTW Arabic and Iranian cultures were not the cultures of the OE, if you ever go to Turkey u will see that.. All mosques were clearly influenced by Byzantine architecture and etc.. they were all mixed, thus the intro Byzantine culture and Islamic culture.. If you cannot be civil, please never address me a word again.. Baristarim02:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
OK, we have established one important thing about the image:
While mine is sourced, the one you want to have up is not, so we should put up a sourced image while we figure out the status of the colored image. So is this settled? Re insert my image, which is based on maps collected by the University of Texas!
Regarding the Ottomans. The Ottomans and modern Turkey are like two different civilizations! Ottoman Turkish was more Persian and Arabic than it was Turkic. The official cultural language of the Ottoman Empire was Persian while the official religious language of the Ottomans was Arabic. The whirling dervishes come straight out of Persian influence. The Ottoman sultans wrote their poetry in Persian. All of this is culture, not just architecture. Again, you are making long speehces without any facts. As far as the Culture of the Ottoman Empire is considered, your fighting a losing battle, because I will come back with sources tomorrow, and not even you will dare remove sourced information, would you? And stay on topic here, if you want to discuss the Ottomans, take it to the right page.
Also, the Reason I say that the Ottoman Empire and modern Turkey are like two whole different civilizations is this: Ataturk basically cut off everything that linked Turkey with its past. He changed the script, the language, and the culture. His change has made Turkey so incredibly different that you can barely see any of the old influences of the past. However, I will let you know that around 15% of the Turkish language contains Persian vocabulary, Rumi is still very popular, and Turkish historians have to learn how to read the Arabic script, the Arabic language, and the Persian language in order to study about the Ottomans.Khosrow II02:42, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Both of you need to stop making threats and demands and calm down. The next comment with the slightest hint of disrespect will result in an immediate block. --InShaneee02:47, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Sure thing. Also, Inshahee, please let us know your opinion about the debate here. Would you consider my sources, from the University of Texas Library as reliable or not? Also, wouldnt it be better to have a sourced map in an article rather than an exaggerated unsourced map? I wonder what Zaparodjik's sources are.Khosrow II02:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Obviously I was not talking about today's Turkey - I was talking about the remnants of the Ottoman Empire that remain in Turkey, palaces, mosques etc - there has been a huge Byzantine influence on the culture, since half the Ottoman population was non-Muslim, and they stuck with their customs, they are also part of the culture of the ottoman empire - we are not talking about the culture of the sultans. When have I refused the Persian influence on Ottomans?? Please show me one instance and please try to understand why I made that edit: Byzantine and Islamic cultures cover all that was mentioned, and as an intro statement, it was balanced.. Please keep cool and assume good faith..
As for the map, I told u what I thought, it wasnt me who put it up and I dont know if it has sources - I said if it doesnt it should be deleted, i didnt say I agreed that there was no source. Contact the person who uploaded it, ask him, if he cant show one, delete it - thats the standard procedure..BUT what I do know is, the map you have created is a map about a controversial topic therefore it is original research.. Because you have synthesized material that dont refer to the matter at hand: one of the maps shows Kurdish inhabited areas, I am not disputing that map, but what it fails to mention is that most of those people in southeastern turkey, even though predominantly Kurdish, also speak Turkish. It can be debated why this happened, but it is also a fact that Kurdish people there speak Turkish, in fact in many cases only speak Turkish.. Thats why synthesis of other sources is original research - we must put a map specifically devoted to Turkic speakers from academic sources, I hope you see my point... That map breaks WP:OR... Baristarim03:34, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The map was created by Zaparodjik (the colored one) and you are the one that wants to keep it, so its your job. My map has sources, yours doesnt, so by Wiki standards, mines should stay. Also, this is about people whose mother tongue is Turkish, Kurds speak Kurdish as their mother language. Do you agree that my map is the only one on this talk page that has confirmed reliable sources or not? Answer that question, if yes, than this is settled, my map goes up, if you say no, then you should bring up a good reason. If you cannot bring up a good reason, then this issue will be settled. As per the Ottomans, take the discussion to the correct place. But I will note that it was your friend Zaparodjik who was taking out facts, not me. I was merely including the Persian and Arabic cultural influences, that previously you and him kept out, and now you are trying to keep out all of them rather than have Persian and Arabic, the main two cultural influences, in the article.Khosrow II04:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Baristarim says that my map is origional research and insists on using an exaggerated map. Well, I did some research and discovered something. The creator of this map: [28] is himself a Wikipedia User! Baristarim claims that my map cannot be used because it is made by a user. Well then, interestingly, the map he wants to use is also created by a Wikipedia user (his Turkish Wikipedia User page: [29])! Also something interesting is the fact that on his own user page he claims that his Turkish knowledge is limited! So Baristarim, the map you have on the article currently is also unacceptable by your logic, so that should be taken out. Secondly, my map is the only one with cited sources, so which will it be?
I am not badgering anyone. Baristarim says that my map is not acceptable because it was created by a Wikipedia User. Well, the map he supports, and the map he put in the article is also created by a Wiki User. This is the discovery I made. Also, the colored map was created by another Wiki User, Zaparodjik. Whether Baristarim knew about it or not I dont know, but by the very reason he says my map cannot apply, than the map he wants cannot apply either. Also, there is the matter of sources. My map has plenty of sources from a reliable organization.
The person who reverted the article and put in Khosrow in the edit summary was not me. I dont want anyone getting any ideas. You cna check my IP address if you dont believe me.Khosrow II04:38, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
sorry that was me. BTW about Iran, there is a BBC map and any map that is going to be created should correspond to that map in my opinion. --alidoostzadeh04:44, 8 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
.svg?lang=en){kind=small}
![[1]](/media/wikipedia/en/6/60/Ethno-linguistic_map_of_AFG.jpg){kind=link}
![[2]](/media/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Iran_peoples.jpg){kind=link}
![[3]](http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/casia_ethnic_93.jpg){kind=link}
![[4]](http://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/china/china-map-5.jpg){kind=link}
![[5]](/media/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Verbreitungsgebiet_der_Turkv%C3%B6lker.png){kind=link}
![[6]](http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/iran_ethnoreligious_distribution_2004.jpg){kind=link}
![[7]](http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/china_ethnolinguistic_83.jpg){kind=link}
![[8]](http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/commonwealth/ethnocaucasus.jpg){kind=link}
![[9]](http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/middle_east_and_asia/kurdish_lands_92.jpg){kind=link}
![[15]](/media/wikipedia/en/2/2d/Kurdish_lands_92_cropped.jpg){kind=link}
![[16]](/media/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Iraq_demography.jpg){kind=link}
![[28]](/wiki/Image:Verbreitungsgebiet_der_Turkv%C3%B6lker.png){kind=link}