Talk:Islam/Archive 16

Chronological Archives
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15 Topical Archives
External Links

New Additions

I would like to make a few more addition to the article, Here is what i want to add:

• The word "Islam" on Arabic language means "submission". Islam means the submission of one's will to the only true god worthy of worship "Allah" and anyone who does so is termed a "Muslim".

• Muslims Believe that all the Prophets and Messengers of Allah to Mankind on Earth have the Same One Basic Message ( Laa Illaha Illa Allah ) in arabic language, Which means ( No God Worth of Worshiping But Allah ) - simple like that, Although those Prophets came with different Books, Practices and Methods of worshiping.

• Islam is the religion that was given to Adam, the first man and the first prophet of Allah on Earth, and it was the religion of all the prophets and messengers sent by God 'Allah' to mankind like Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Aaron, David, Solomon, Elias, Jesus and Mohamad and many others, Peace be upon them all.

• The most important message of Islam is the Absolute Unity of Allah 'God' - that there is only One Supreme Being who has no partners and is not dependent on anyone or anything. He is the creator of everything and the whole Universe is under His Own Control. Since the total submission of one's will to Allah represents the essence of worship, Islam is the worship of Allah alone and the avoidance of worship directed to any person, place or thing other than Allah. In essence, Islam calls man away from the worship of the Creation and invites him to the worship of the Creator.

• I also wanted to make a new external links section called "Invitation to Islam" and add some useful sites to it like those with the proper title & description:

http://harunyahya.com/

http://islamtomorrow.com/

http://islamvoice.freehostia.com/

http://www.islam-guide.com/

• adding those links under "Directories":

http://www.2muslims.com/directory/

http://www.islamicport.com/

http://www.islamicfinder.org/

http://www.islam.tc/ali/

http://dir.yahoo.com/Society_and_Culture/Religion_and_Spirituality/Faiths_and_Practices/Islam/

let me know what you think?

Kind Regards,

--ColdFire 17:55, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe most of what you suggested above are already discussed in the article. -- Szvest 18:00, 13 September 2006 (UTC) User:FayssalF/Sign

I took a look over this talk page and i couldn't find anything related to it.--ColdFire 18:43, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, none of the above is discussed here. Why do you people lie blatantly? (216.99.60.250 22:09, 13 September 2006 (UTC))

Please avoid uncivility and stop trolling (re 216.99.x.x). ColdFire, have a look (use your search tool of your navigator):

• slam is an abstract nominal derived from this root, and literally means "submission to 'The God' (Arabic:Allah)".
• Muslims believe that God revealed his direct word for humanity to Muhammad (c. 570–632) through the angel Gabriel and earlier prophets, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. Muslims believe that Muhammad is the last prophet, based on the Qur'anic phrase "Seal of the Prophets"
• Shahadah

Main article:Shahadah

The basic creed or tenet of Islam is found in the shahādatān ("two testimonies"): ašhadu 'an lā ilāha illā-llāhu wa ašhadu 'an muhammadun-r-rasūlu-llāh — "I testify that there is none worthy of worship except God (Arabic:Allah) and I testify that Muhammad is the Messenger of God.". -- Szvest 22:22, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

THIS IS A BIAS ARTICLE DOE NOT MENTION ALOT ABOUT THE CHRISTIANITY VIEWPOINT. IF YOU LOOK UP CHRISTIANITY IN THE SEARCH BLOCK ON THIS WEBPAGE...IT SAYS ALL KINDS OF INFORMATION ABOUT islam — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.0.148.24 (talk • contribs)

I guess most editors haven't yet realized that we should be writing all religion-related articles from a Christian perspective. BhaiSaab ^talk 11:08, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed... This website should be renamed to Christopedia...Seriously, afterall, the overhelming majority of editors here are Christians.. I would say 95%.

• I don't think so. there's a difference from being christian and being from a christian country. Zazaban 01:16, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Message to the anon. Please note that this is irrelevant here. If you want to discuss that please refer to Wikipedia Talk:Village pump. You may also assume good faith. -- Szvest 12:59, 15 September 2006 (UTC) User:FayssalF/Sign

Ok, what about addiding the new directories links and those websites i mentioned above as new resources?--ColdFire 06:55, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

NO. Those are dawa links, and invitations to particular strains of Islam. If we include them, then every other sect/shaykh/whatever is going to demand links. We would have several thousands links. That's why we link to the DMOZ directory, which is a directory of links. Make sure that all your sites are there. Zora 07:54, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Those are not invitation to particular strains of Islam at all, those are high quality and very informative sites i picked from the web to add as additional resources thinking they will be for the benefit of the Reader which inviting to Islam on *General* they talk about the Basics only like Pillars of Islam, Famous Converts, Miracles of Islam in Science, Islamic Guide..etc and one of those sites are the official site of "Harun Yahya" a famous islamic scholar who have a reference on the article already. anyway thats ok i got your point that if we add more sites other webmasters would ask for links too, or maybe because some websites have ADS on them, Regards. ColdFire 14:04, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

ColdFire, i believe Zora got a very valid point. Another point is that we have plenty of articles under the category:Islam and most of them must go there. This is the main article and it should discuss generalities. -- Szvest 14:56, 17 September 2006 (UTC) User:FayssalF/Sign

If we add the above external links, it is only fair that we add links to critics of islam too. (for example Daniel Pipes, Ali Sina, etc. We need to keep this article unbaised, meaning we should not have links to pages inviting people jo convert to islam, unless we also have links to pages written to tell people to leave islam.--Sefringle 21:18, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I changed freedom of speech to "The censorship of criticism of Islam". Free speech covers criticism of gov't and censorship of the press. "The censorship of criticism of Islam" is better because it has a narrower scope.--Dr.Worm 06:27, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Important Information

Due to the lack of attention, I decided to bring this up in a seperate heading:

FACT: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the World according to Guinness World Records 2006 Edition. This is indeed a very credible and reliable source. What do you people think?

(216.99.56.61 23:55, 15 September 2006 (UTC))

I'm inclined to agree, but then we get into the realms of debating whether it is due to the rate of converts/reverts OR, a higher birth rate in muslim populations, OR something else. Then we can ask at what point does the Guinness book of records consider a person to be muslim. Could be interesting. 86.133.72.79 00:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

"FACT: Islam is the fastest growing religion" - Perhaps, but so is Buddhism, Falun Gong, Atheism and Wikka (see Fastest growing religion). So, by which method did Guinnes determine who's fastest? And do you have a quote/link? --Frescard 04:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Whether it is due to the rate of reverts, etc OR a higher birth rate, the fact does not change: Islam is recognized as the fastest growing religion under the Guinness World Records (216.99.58.51 16:24, 16 September 2006 (UTC))

That statement (Islam is recognized as the fastest growing religion under the Guinness World Records) would be true and verifiable. 86.133.72.79 22:30, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll try it once more: How does Guinness define "fastest growing"? As you can see in the Fastest growing religion article there are all kinds of definitions. And how did they come to that conclusion? While I may trust Guinness with personally verifying how long someone's fingernails are, or how far somebody can spit, I have my doubts that they went and established these kinds of population statistics themselves; so those numbers must've come from somewhere. But where? What is the original source? --Frescard 22:58, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

OK here is entry from the Guiness World Records 2005: Special Anniversary Edition

"Fastest growing religion: Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. In 1990, 935 million of the world's population were Muslims; however, the estimate for January 2004 is 1.4 billion or 23% of the world's population. Although the religion originated in Arabia, in 2002 around 80% of all believers lived outside the Arab world." Page 97.

Guiness World Records is indeed a reliable source.. lol (206.126.82.232 01:15, 17 September 2006 (UTC))

...For 2004, maybe. Homestarmy 01:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What is that supposed to mean, please elaborate.. (206.126.82.232 01:43, 17 September 2006 (UTC))

The entry lists a time peroid between 1990 and 2004, therefore, the maximum range where Guiness claims that Islam is the fastest growing religion stops around january of 2004. It's 2006 now and in the fall, the entry is about 2 and a half years out of date, and when it comes to numbers concerning members of a religion, alot can change in that amount of time. Homestarmy 01:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

The entry might be 2.5 years old in the text book, but trust me, the fact still remains unchanged. Muslim population numbers are still growing :) (206.126.82.232 02:12, 17 September 2006 (UTC))

Unfortunently for you, "Trust me" is OR. From what I have read of Muslim culture, I have little doubt that the population is indeed growing, but if some reports i've read are true, some imam-type people are starting to become worried about how Christianity is moving upwards through Africa, and a population can switch religions after all.... Homestarmy 02:21, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Christian people will be 0 at the end.. so that doesn not matter :) (216.99.61.54 19:34, 17 September 2006 (UTC))

That doesn't make much sense, wherever people go in the afterlife, they don't just stop existing. Homestarmy 01:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

But why, will Islam be number one religion? Think, reasons are first always what Allah wants, also because: a Muslim has a truth (Qur'an) so is certain, unbelief does not have truth as definition and is NOT certain of any own ideas only to attacking the Muslims. Not only this means,using words and ALSO pictures. Because the Qur'an Surah al Fath ayat 29, tells Allah made Muslims to be strong crops at bothering the nonmuslims. Also this says, Muslims, be good kind to one other Muslim and bad kind to an unbeliver, but non-Islam does NOT have this rule. This wants to help Islam in the long run.LionofTruth 05:11, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

For instance, specialists think that Islam will be the dominante religion in Netherland after 20 years.

Yes, I have heard that too which apparently has turned the Dutch people's dreams into nightmares.. . lol (216.99.61.54 21:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC))

I want to say that I am Muslim, but I'm not terrorist and I don't want you to chage your religion to mine. Why when people think about Islam they always think only about Saddam or others terrorists? Why don't they think about great boxer of all the times Muhamed Ali? Everyone only talking about 11 september, but not about Nagasaki or Hirosima? Our religion always respected Jesus, and didn't draw offending comics about him. That's hurts a lot. Aishe

Wait, what hurts who now? Homestarmy 12:22, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

About islamic conquest

The Historians like Massignon and others has made some statistics about christian and islamic conquest:

islamic conquest has engendered about 392 victims in the two camps.

croisad and Religion's war engendered 10 M victims in central Europe.

thanks

What camps, and how did they possibly break down all the hundreds of years of the expansion of the Islamic world, Darfur, Mogadishu, and who knows what else down to exactly 392 people? Homestarmy 15:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello Homestarmy, the 2 camps mean both muslims and non-muslims, while the banner of croisad was (christianization or slaughtering) the banner of muslims was (no coercion to the religion), for this reason islam was accepted largely in asia (india-Indonesia-Malaysia..) without blood. thanks

Oh. Well then why is Hinduism still in India, and what about the Judea area, and northern Africa? And I'd still like to know how exactly 392 people on the dot were recorded as being "endangered" (I assume that's what you mean.) by Islam, was there some running tally? Homestarmy 17:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

AS OF SEPTEMBER 19, 2006, THE PAGE IS CURRENTLY VANDALIZED; it is locked and no one can alter it. The main page has deleted ALL previous information and instead has a hate-filled message of bigotry which the owners of Wikipedia have allowed to remain up. This situation *MUST* be resolved as long as Wikipedia does not wish to offend Muslims with this blatantly vandalous bigotry. - EDIT: It now seems to be fixed, thank you. Blacksun1942 18:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Hold on a second here, let me get this straight, if we hadn't of fixed the vandalism, than rather it being the vandal's fault, it's Wikipedia's fault? Homestarmy 18:18, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

We can't blame Wikipedia for locking people out. It may be the vandal's fault for the info being there, but it's still Wikipedia's fault for leaving it on their webstie. Therefore, they are culpable and likewise justifided.

Well forgive me but the page is locked; My understanding is that it cannot be edited by users (I've been a user for many months now and I don't have access to edit locked pages); my understanding is that only Wikipedia can edit those pages. Is that correct? If that is the case, then yes I blame Wikipedia since they are the only ones who can edit the page (again, that's my understanding) Blacksun1942 19:46, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

That's odd, it's only semi-protected, you should be able to edit it, the new user lockout I think should go to like only a week or two. Maybe they changed S-protect policy? When a page is Semi-protected like this one, only "established" editors can edit it, generally because a page has had a problem with anonymous users vandalizing. Very new users are also not allowed to edit, since they might just be new creations by anon's to get around the semi-protect. Homestarmy 20:57, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

A lot of people should be aware of anti-Muslim bigots as well. BhaiSaab ^talk 17:29, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, that was an oddly gross hasty generalization there anon.... Homestarmy 17:35, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean, please elaborate (216.99.61.54 00:45, 18 September 2006 (UTC))

A Hasty Generalization is a logical fallacy, it essentially is when one presumes that because something is true of a certain (usually small, but in this case arguably large) part of a group, the same thing is true of all members of that group. For instance, "All the trees near my home have squirrels living in them and pestering me, therefore, all trees in the entire world have squirrels, which annoy people to no end. Therefore, we must destroy all trees!" would be a hasty generalization, coupled with a bad concluding idea because of it. Homestarmy 00:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Also, why did you delete that anon's post, that's generally not a good thing. Homestarmy 00:58, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Who keeps deleting all previous discussions

I know it is someone who recently visited this site. Whoever is doing this needs to stop. It is wrong.--Sefringle 21:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read about the archiving process. No one is deleting material; it's still accessible. BhaiSaab ^talk 21:40, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh. My mistake. I didn't realize that.--Sefringle 03:49, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Ismailis

I read this article and read nothing about Ismaili Muslims who follow the Aga Khan, in the context of Islam. There are a lot of them and I think they should be mentioned under Islamic denominations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Studge (talk • contribs) .

In the Islam Info-Box, click on 'Branches of Islam', then go to Shi'a Sects & Ismailiyah, which then brings you to the Ismaili page --Frescard 04:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Although their status is quite contentious, Ismaili's are considered by many to be Shi'a. I was careful in writing the Shi'a section on this page so that everything written in that section would apply to twelvers, fivers, and Ismailis. So no, they are not being ignored. BhaiSaab ^talk 05:38, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok well, Ismailis, alévis, Druz and other groups are not muslims at all, it's totally another faith, and they don't consider themselves muslims.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.52.163.3 (talk • contribs) .

I'm not sure about Alevis and Druze, but I know the Ismailis consider themselves Muslim. BhaiSaab ^talk 22:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Denominations

I think the section on denominations needs to be rewritten. There are really only two major denominations in Islam and they are Sunni and Shia. Salafis or Wahabbis are just Sunnis who have rather more strict interpretations of Sunna. I must also say that the word "Wahhabi" is a word that is mostly used in the western media. The word is hardly heard in the Arab world and I'm sure people who are categorized as Wahhabis would rather refer to themselves as Salafis. "Wahhabiya" or Wahhabism is indeed a movement

Ijtihadists are another demontaion that I don't think exsist. A Sunni and a Shia maybe an Ijtihadist but he too would not refer to himself as such. The word that is more commonly used for Ijtihadists is "Ahlu Al-Ra'i" which litterally means "the people of opinion" Marwan123 05:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC)Marwan123

I agree. BhaiSaab ^talk 02:34, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Ismalis are not considered apart of Islam by majority of mainstream muslims.

Source on that? Because I don't believe that at all. Zazaban 22:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Keeping Criticism of Islam

This section has recently been deleted. It is important that we keep it to keep this article unbiased. I am going to restore it.--Sefringle 22:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Most other religion articles lack "Criticism of" sections. I think this is more of a problem with the other articles than the secton in our article. ----Dr.Worm 06:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a problem with Christianity and Islam articles. The criticism of a religion is not so much as important as the religion itself. Criticism sections should be linked under "See also", and thats it. BhaiSaab ^talk 15:42, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The criticism section in this article is actually rather low-key.

If you look at the Roman_Catholic page, their criticism section is HUGE. With several paragraphs about the sexual scandals alone.

Christianity too, has a sizable Criticism section, so it's not quite true that only the Islam page features criticism on the main page. --Frescard 16:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

in all fairness, criticism of Islam, and problems of all sorts within the Islamic community couldn't have much higher profile or notability these days. The section is hardly of 'not so much' importance to Islam. dab (ᛏ) 17:46, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where my originial comments are archived but the criticism section on Christianity is an orange to Islam's apple. Comparing the two is absurd because the nature of "criticism" in the Christianity section is tame and theological, while the nature of criticism in the Islam seciton is controversial, political, and not even mostly of the religion itself but of quite specific elements, people, or movements therein. So justifying this section vis-a-vis the Christianity one is pretty bad form.PelleSmith 03:50, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree that there should be a criticism section, but it should never get larger than one paragraph. the criticism of Islam page os already large enough on its own. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 19:50, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

All about Islam

the most interesting website on islam[1]—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.52.163.3 (talk • contribs) .

Split infinitives and the like

We find again that some authors in the Wikipedia cannot write English properly. This article contains split infinitives ('to privately practise their religion' which should read 'to practise their religion privately'). In addition we find strange words such as 'societal'. The adjective derived from 'society' is actually 'social'. T A F—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.108.162.190 (talk • contribs) .

Thank you for your suggestion! When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the Edit this page link at the top. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. BhaiSaab ^talk 22:34, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

"We" find??? Is that the "Royal We"? Or just simple MPD?

And, yes, there exists something called "Split infinitive", but for the last 100 years or so pretty much every authority accepted it as valid grammar.[2]

And while you may find societal a "strange word", that says more about your usual reading matter than it does about the correctness of this article... --Frescard 00:24, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are snarky!!!!--Dr.Worm 06:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Muslims believe this , Muslims believe that

The use of the construct , "Muslims believe this ....", "Muslims believe that ...." is misleading and unsubstantiatable . Why? Because the infinitive word "Muslims" represents a large statistical population that has not been surveyed for their beliefs in such a way that the results could be presented as 100% belief on anything. Unless someone can show a survey whose result says that 100% of the Muslims surveyed show that they espouse a certain view , then we should not say "Muslims believe this ..." or "believe that..." because that is another way of saying 100% of Muslims have this view. Thus I recommend that rather than stating what is unproveable , we say rather , the Qu'ran says this , the Hadiths say that. --CltFn 19:29, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem with that is that primary sources will be over all the article. There's nothing wrong with using the "Muslims believe that" construction, that is exactly what the books about general Islam do. BhaiSaab ^talk 19:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

There is a potential alternative. As with any religion, you have the theory and you have the practice. CltFn has a legit point: we cannot assume every Muslim (Christian, Jew, Hindu, etc.) adheres to the law, as its written. What could be substituted is something to the effect of "Islamic law teaches/dictates/says...". Of course, that leaves open the issue of interpretation. Also, it's a bit more anthropomorphic than I like. That being said, there can be general consensus re: the 'big-picture' teaching of any religion, as per written laws. This clarifies the difference between what is written and what is enacted: a most important distinction. I can tell you this from the perspective of someone who teaches about religion: generalization are a must in order to cover lots of information. However, when introducing an audience to a new concept (i.e., religion), I am very careful in making sure students don't think that because the Bible says this, or the Qur'an that, people of those faith do exactly those things. Just as not all good Catholics go to church every week, not all Muslims spend Friday with their umma. What is extremely important to avoid in all this is to give people a reason to think "well, you say you're part of ______-faith and you're not doing what your rules/laws say, so you're really not part of ______-faith." By making what is a very academic distinction between theory and practice, such problems can be avoided.

It may seem elementary, but these things matter in the long run.

My $.02.--Jonashart 19:44, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

That construction has the same problem. Who's "Islamic law" teaches so and so? An Ismaili's Islamic law will be different from a Sunni's Islamic law, for example. BhaiSaab ^talk 05:02, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

How Many?

How many muslims are there really? Encarta says "about 1 billion" but this article says 1.4 billion. That's a big difference!

As with every statistic, the answer always depends on who you ask... --Frescard 20:43, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

we have everything you ever wanted to know about that question, and more, see Demographics of Islam, Islam by country. Until Islamic nations get their act together and do proper censuses, you won't get any more defninite answer. dab (ᛏ) 20:21, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! That page was very helpful.

About the separation of Islamic Extremism

I believe that there is enough information to make a separate article out of Islamic extremism. After all, they've been the ones always getting highlighted in the media. This post is in response to a message I received.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Diez2 (talk • contribs) .

There is already Islamic extremist terrorism. BhaiSaab ^talk 05:13, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

i dont know if i missed it, but the article doesnt say about Indonesia as the world's largest muslim populated country. correct me if im wrong. Widi r 02:56, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

You didn't look hard enough. Its there, under Demographics of Islam Today.PelleSmith 19:55, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

oh youre right, i guess i missed that line. thanks Widi r 04:27, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Related religions. to homestary.

I was going to explain this in my edit sumary but accidentally pressed enter. all the pages on the mentioned religions say they are extinct. this is a message to homestary. Zazaban 16:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, it's just I didn't see how you can say a religion has "gone extinct", I mean, how can you fact check whether their truly all gone? But I wouldn't want to edit war over it or anything. Homestarmy 19:14, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ahmadis

This is the Islam article, and thus should present mainstream views of Islam. The mainstream view of Islam is that Ahmadis are a heretical cult that violate the most basic of premises in Islam, that Muhammad (pbuh) was the final Messenger of God. Also, they say that Jesus traveled to India. I attempted to portray this in that section on Ahmadis in this article, but I was reverted. Here is my edit, followed by what it was changed to[3].

Patstuart claims "last comments are POV - the job of wikipedia is not to "isolate" groups". However, isolation is a descriptive term, not a judgmental one. The fact is, Ahmadis are isolated in that region, just like how the Falun Gong are isolated within China. And also, my comment on why Ahmadis are considered a separate group was removed. I added that so that it would fall in line with the other groups which explain how they are different from mainstream (Sunni, 90%) Islam. Finally, I also added that they are going against the wishes of mainstream Muslims by claiming that they are Muslim, which is also entirely relevant to this article on Islam. So I have reverted back to my edit, and if you disagree please tell me why. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 04:26, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Part of the problem was the wording, and the specific changes. By adding changing the words from "small" to "very small and isolated", it appears to be an attempt to marginalize the group Perhaps if you could state it more kindly, like "located exclusively in". Or in other parts, like the majority of mainstream Islam does not consider this to be an Islamic group rather than against the desire of mainstream Islam (which makes it sound like mainstream Muslims have been somehow wronged). My comments might not sound right here, but if you objectively sit down and read the wording, you will see it is biased. Look at Christianity, for example; it treads very carefully on ground when dealing with modern-day organizations like Mormons and Jehovah's Witness, considered by nearly all mainstream Christians to be a cult. As an objective (non-Muslim) reader, I found the changes to be POV. -Patstuart 04:45, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm simply trying to show that they are a fringe group. And I'm not sure what you mean by "stating it more kindly". Is it WP policy to do such a thing? Wikipedia is not written in a sympathetic point of view, that's another wiki project. Also, I say that they go against the desire of mainstream Muslims because that's what they are doing; they are illegitimately calling themselves Muslims. This is a very important fact that they call themselves Muslims. The Nation of Islam considers its members Muslims too, but this self-description is rejected by mainstream Muslims as well. I have looked over Christianity, and in fact, I think that it is too extreme. Mormons are delegated to a single sentence in that article, while Ahmadis have a full paragraph describing them. I think that's more than enough. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 04:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Section on the strong connection between Islam and terrorism

Surely a large discussion of this should be present, especially regarding recent comments made by Muslim clerics in the UK. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CarlosPauloEthetheth (talk • contribs) .

It is: see the section Political and Islamic extremism. --Patstuart 11:19, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but this section is rather poor. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by CarlosPauloEthetheth (talk • contribs) .

I agree. I would add in a sentence or two about how Islamic terrorism is the most prevalent form of 21st century terrorism, but it was more your idea. I don't think it would be unencyclopedic, so I'll support you if anyone disagrees. -Patstuart 11:56, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah no, go for it. I don't really claim to have any knowledge on the subject, the page just came up by random and I read it!—The preceding unsigned comment was added by CarlosPauloEthetheth (talk • contribs) .

"Democracy" and the Caliphate

Two reverts have already happened over the deletion of "democratic" as a description of the Caliphate. I would like to propose that people discuss the issue here and not start an edit war. My own opinion is that the removal was a good edit because even at times when the Caliph was chosen he was never chosen "democratically" by the members of the ummah. Just take a look at the entry democracy and the entry Caliph if you have doubts. Therefore the differences between the two systems are actually obscured by the use of "democractic". It may be or seem more democratic, in other words more like democracy, than the Shia system, but it isn't "democratic" strictly speaking. The end result is simply making the Sunni system seem better by associating it with a term like democracy instead of accurately describing the difference between the two, which I'm assuming is the "good faith" intention of the adjective "democratic" in the first place. My vote is for removing "democratic". What are the objections?PelleSmith 19:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, and thank you. My removal doesn't have to do with the beliefs of either Shi'a or Sunni, but simply the description of the caliphate, which was certainly not always democratic. BhaiSaab ^talk 19:42, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

For anyone that would like to know, "democratic" was inserted on September 17th, 2006. It's not always been there. [4] BhaiSaab ^talk 19:58, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Is Islam the fastest growing religion?

In the article, it said "Islam is growing faster numerically than any of the other major world religions." However, this is not true. Islam has the fastest percentage growth rate, but it isn't the fastest growing religion in terms of number of converts.

According to this article:

There are 1.4 billion muslims.

The growth rate of Islam is 2.9% annually.

(1,400,000,000)(2.9%)=40,600,000 people annually

According to the Christianity article:

There are 2.1 billion Christians

The growth rate of Christianity is 2.3%

(2,100,000,000)(2.3%)=48,300,000 people annually

Conclusion: Christianity is growing faster than Islam and Islam is NOT the fastest growing religion. Sefringle 22:34, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

nice research, though original. ITAQALLAH 02:30, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry. I didn't realize that policy--Sefringle 03:11, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps there ought to be some latitude to the WP:NOR policy to allow for mathematically accurate and self evident extrapolations from sourced references. If a reference states that there are 2 men and 2 women in a room , we should be able to say that there are a total of 4 people in the room. In any case there must be some reliable source out there that makes the point presented by sefringe.--CltFn 06:17, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Even beyond the issue of original research your conclusion is problematic. When you say that a religion is growing "faster" this means it is in terms of a "growth rate". A growth rate is a factor of percentage growth--in other words it is only relative to the base population. Go to population growth if you have any doubts about this. You can say that Christianity has a larger annual growth, but not that it is growing "faster". Of course the religions that are actually growing "fastest" are very small ones like Wicca. However of the larger "world religions" by any statistics I've seen Islam is growing "fastest" while Christianity has the greatest total gains.PelleSmith 15:25, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh no, not the "fastest growing" topic again! The problem here is not NOR. Sefringle's numbers are referenced as well as they can be in their respective articles. With "fastest growing" we naturally (per Pelle) mean 'growth rate', even if it is correct that Christianity at present still has the larger net growth. (naive, 1st order) projections would predict that Islam overtakes Christianity in terms of adherents some time in the 2070s. But since population growth will change significantly, one way or the other, before then, that is meaningless. The bottom line is that Islam may have the highest growth rate, but since Muslim countries as a rule don't do decent censuses there is no way to be positively sure. dab (ᛏ) 16:27, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Something rather fundamental missing...

Why on Earth is there not a section on the Six Beliefs? Dev920 (Tory?) 15:33, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

If you're bored and want to make it to FA...

Move all of the inline citations to the end of sentences, after the full stop/period. It's one of the first things any Peer Reviewer or FA reviewer will pick up on. Dev920 (Tory?) 15:54, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

"founder" of Christianity?

no, Christianity doesn't have a single founder. That's because it is much more fragmented than Islam, but individual churches do have individual founders. Being more monolithic is something Muslims are as a rule proud of, I don't see why that pride doesn't hold in the "founder" case. The single most prominent "founder" of Christianity is Saint Paul. But the "founder" of the Roman Catholic Church would be Saint Peter. The "founder" that got Christianity underway as a political power the way Muhammad did with Islam would be Saint Constantine. The founder of the Lutheran church is obviously Luther, that of the Calvinist one Calvin, etc.. dab (ᛏ) 19:56, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually Zwingli. A.J.A. 03:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the above analysis. In the Christianity article, it makes little sense to talk about a founder - the closest would probably be Jesus, but it so was heavily influenced by Paul that this distinction shouldn't be made. The same could be said about Judaism, or even non-monotheist religions like Hindu. However, with Islam, it makes sense to talk about Mohammed as founder. I think that wording should be left in (though I haven't reviewed the history to see how it was opposed). -Patstuart 03:27, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

There you are, if Jesus is the founder of Christianity, Archangel Gabriel is the founder of Islam :) -- seriously, historical Jesus didn't "found" anything, he got himself killed for trying, but that so inspired his followers that they made a real effort. But the theological haggling began as early as at the Council of Jerusalem, so that the Christian church has various founders from there. The problem is really the lack of a term parallel to ecclesia (church) in Islam. We could uncontroversially say that Muhammad was the founder of that. There is Ummah, and I have repeatedly suggested that we could say Muhammad is the founder of that, but the term isn't really parallel because it is much more political than religious, as it were just parallel to Ecclesia Militans, not to Ecclesia altogether. dab (ᛏ) 07:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It remains that all the people named above as potential 'founders', had they been asked "Who founded Christianity?", would have pointed to their traditions, which took written form as their scriptures, which claim that the religion was "built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone", and that report Jesus saying "I will build my Church." (Ephesians 2:19-20 and Matthew 16:18.)

A martial arts teacher of mine started a dojo in my home town from scratch, and built the business up until there were five locations. He had a picture on the wall of the Founder of his martial art. It would have been pointless and silly of me to argue with him that he was the real founder in our town, because he didn't see his labours as being separate from those of the Founder, but a continuation of them.

After all, who is the founder, the one who says, "Go, and teach all nations" (Matthew 28:19), or the ones who go and teach? The latter would obviously point to the former. Otherwise they would have stayed home. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plain jack (talk • contribs)

Criticism of Islam vs. Islamophobia

I propose a split between these two topics, as they are quite different.--Sefringle 03:35, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Islamophobia warrants its own section in this article. BhaiSaab ^talk 03:43, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Gotta agree here. Islmophobia isn't really a global issue. Dev920 (Tory?) 18:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

What I meant is I don't think they should be under the same category. The Islamophobia imformation should be under a different category than the criticism of Islam imformation. Do you disagree with that?--Sefringle 04:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Not necessarily. They're closely related - a lot of the critics are just plain Islamophobes. BhaiSaab ^talk 09:40, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

You can't just assume all critics of Islam are islamophobes though. They are different topics.--Sefringle 01:43, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Speaking of Islamophobia, there is evidently even a wiki run by Islamophobes under the pretense of uncensored dialogue about Islam. The wiki is WikiIslam.org. Also, Islamophobia may not be "a global issue", in Dev's words, but it certainly is an important one within countries that have a large impact on world affairs (US and Western Europe). This makes it a "globally significant" issue nonetheless.PelleSmith 13:03, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Mission of Islam

I added a section on the Mission of Islam (81192607, 2006-10-13, 11:42), which has since been deleted. I would like to propose for discussion that some such section be added, since something is clearly missing from the article: Islam has a very particular world view that originates from its conception of the Dar al Islam vs. the Dar al Harb and Islam's mission to the world. How can the main article on Islam leave out these two critical concepts? Not every religion has such a mission: Christinity has an explicit mission to all people (albeit not in the secular/political order); Judaism and others do not. Islam's approach is distinctive and should be described, in neutral terms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Plain Jack (talk • contribs)