Talk:Jack the Ripper/Archive 1

An event mentioned in this article is an August 31 selected anniversary.

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Since the suspect page now is separate, I moved most discussion relating specifically to them to that page. If that's in error someone can move them back. I left the first Sickert one because it seems more historical than current, and if they want to debate him over there there was another topic already available to use.

DreamGuy 22:49, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Cornwell's Sickert theory taking over the article

Dang it, somebody beat me to the Patricia Cornwell blurb! Anyway, if our edit conflict caused some of your new entry not to get posted, my apologies. -- Storm

I'm really not sure about the Sickert pic being on this page - it does rather give the impression that he was Jack the Ripper, and my understanding is that that's a very long way from certain.

The Sickert picture is already in the Sickert article and shouldn't be here for the reasons adduced. And, no, I don't think there should be a picture of the Duke of Clarence, either, particularly since that theory (as with many, many, others) isn't even mentioned. Ortolan88

Also:

Other evidence cites Sickert's artistic genius in crafting the Ripper's letters, in disguised handwriting, and varied sketch styles. The letters often contained specific information related to crimes, and as such are unlikely to be from any other than the Ripper.

What does "crafting the Ripper's letters" mean? --Camembert

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There have been so many theories about the Ripper that to put only Cornwall's derivative theories (see updated Walter Sickert article) is really poor encyclopediaism. This article needs a huge amount of beefing up, stuff about how the murderer apparently knew anatomy, thought to be a doctor or med student, the Duke of Clarence connection, etc. Ortolan88

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Why were the other suspects removed from this article? Mintguy

I can't find them in the history. Were they ever here? In any case, they belong here. -- Someone else 04:52 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

They are in the history, removed by User:Stevertigo. I'll restore them. also Sickert picture should go!

Is there a way to convey that some of these are clearly less credible than others? Lewis Carroll, for example? Without getting too POV-ey. -- Someone else 05:04 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

Someone else, are those entries you just removed at all true, and therefore encyclopedic? perhaps they might fit with a different rank on the page.

-Sv

I didn't remove any suspects, just a nickname for some other murderer. -- Someone else 05:19 Jan 17, 2003 (UTC)

There seems to be very little on the murders themselves, and much more on the Sickert theory. Questions: 1) Second to last paragraph: Why is genius necessary to "craft the ripper's letters" and 2) Do we need to know in this entry that Sickert's art is 'much admired in the British art world?' Atorpen

If anywhere, the Sickert stuff should be under Walter Sickert. He really was a very famous artist, you know, not even counting this pop-novelist theory that so seems to fascinate some people, including the pop novelist herself.Ortolan88

In answer to 1): it's not even clear which if any letters were from the "Ripper", so it can hardly be clear that genius was needed in crafting them; in answer to 2) it's probably good to know that Cornwell has not chosen a completely obscure painter. Maybe the "Sickert is Ripper" stuff belongs under Cornwell rather than under Ripper or Sickert? -- Someone else 01:06 Jan 18, 2003 (UTC)

We all gather this.... as for his "genius in crafting letters" - this needs explanation- that the "Ripper letters" sent by X to scotland yard - bragging and taunting basically, are completely inconsistent in style, writing and drawing... Scotland Yard had thought some of these were fakes, and some remain in question, while othere are clearly done with knowlege of the crime in question, (such as a drawing of how a body was mutilated and where it was...) Cornwell claims to have made links to Sickert - firstly, (and recently) the kind of paper- small press, same cutting marks indicating the same batch of 24... second .. some mitochondrial dna evidence (not clear on) and third - what she claims as the skill by which sickert disguised the sickert letters from bearing any traces of his handwriting or drawing.... and they differ from each other... Scotland yards best were led to believe that these were done by different people altogether. So... thats all folks... -Stevert

It's always amazed me how people can come up so many theories that Jack the Ripper must be someone who was a well known personage and not some previously nameless figure within the community, like most serial killers. Mintguy

Also this article needs a hell of a lot of work .. The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing Anon

I looked at the record, to see if the accusation above , about me removing some relevant material... i looked in there and found this claim false.. thought it very well could have been true.. only its unlike me... i havent been watching this page - so i just became aware of it... Im not going to quote the ten commandments here... but im glad to see the interest in this, and the article reads pretty succinctly. as for the notion that JTR has to be a famous person... I see no reason why it couldnt have been the queen herself... though, we can deduce it the be unlikely... and the Cornwell evidence , all told is fairly damning... im not doing it justice, by rehashing out what little I caught from booktv,

Re removing relevant material and "I didn't do it" - what about this (05:11 Jan 2, 2003, marked as a minor edit) --Camembert

Well Sv, if you call PCs evidence damning I hope to not ever find myself in a position where you're on my jury. As for the accusation made against you, the evidence for this IS indeed damning as Camembert has shown. Although I suspect what happened was that you accidentally edited a previous version, thereby restoring the Sickert picture and removing the usual suspects. Mintguy

yeah... well i apologise for that... must have had in in the clipboard for pasting lower... or something like you say Mint .. distracted . As for the nature of the evidence, what I heard and read is, I admit flavored like a crime novel, (which she is) but its also sound. She began her career as a medical examiner, (and by the way I didnt know who she was before her lecture) and she connects the dots pretty logically. I'd be deferential to someone whos actually read her whole book. ( and not just scanned the sample pages on amazon, like I did. .) So, the book what I read, like a lot of works, strikes a funy balance between research and historical novel. A lot of speculation fills in the gaps between her evidence. Which is pretty damning, not unlike that link...-Stevert

PCs book is a court with a prosecution but and without a defence. See http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-pamandsickert.html Mintguy

I'd like to go on board with PC's evidence belonging somewhere else (Under her or her book), as it seems less than damning. At least someone with more skill should add that the DNA PC used - as I think one of the links points out - could match with between 1/10 and 1/100th of the world's population.

Stevert, I agree that the article reads well and succintly, and I congratulate you for your part. However, I am having trouble following your explanation of the genius of Sickert's (the Rippers?) letters, in this talk page. That the quire is from the same batch is quite possible - but considering S. was in France during at least some of the murders, I think there's more than a reasonable doubt. Why, by the way, isn't more discussion given to more traditional suspects?

Last - and more personally - I'm troubled by that PC's assertion that she first thought Sickert was JTR after seeing one of his paintings and subsequent horror at the artist's depiction of women, as if he's another male that hates women. His paintings are works of _art_. If this is the starting point for any hypothesis, we could damn just about any artist/author we choose. Atorpen

One of the links at Walter Sickert makes the argument that Cornwall ignores the fact that Sickert was a protege of Cezanne and Degas and that manyof their paintings depicted women in perilous situations.

Unnoticed and unmentioned by the eye of Cornwell, these works show the continuing influence of Degas (and of early Cezanne paintings such as The Murder and The Abduction as well). In a painting alternatively called Interior and The Rape, Degas painted a giant menacing man barring the door of a small room while a woman sits cowering on the other side of the room. This is one of Degas' strongest paintings, as anyone who has seen it in Philadelphia or on tour will know. The suitcase in the middle of the picture glooms with an unearthly light. You wonder why Cornwell doesn't accuse Degas or Cezanne of being the Ripper. The reason is simple. These artists are as invulnerable to Cornwell's investigations as Cornwell is invulnerable to my criticism. Poor Walter Sickert is not.

I forget which logical fallacy this is, but it must be one of them, confusing the artist with his work. This Sickert stuff is taking over this article and should be moved out, either into the Sickert article, or my preference, to an article of its own. Ortolan88

Understood, and agreed: atorpen, and ortolan. Im really not 100 percent clear on her case for associating artistic genius with the ripper letters. And yes, it does seem distressing that someone with a hunch goes and spends several million dollars of her own money, allegedly destroying one or more sickert paintings... and to somehow, after all this seemingly "unscientific" process, come up vindicated, and with a well-selling book, some notoriety for herself, and the claim to have solved a mystery which has baffled the best for over a century... I agree its all very Texas ( apparently where shes from ) and smells a lot like yesterdays sushi to the habitual skeptic... All this I understand...

as for the similarity of the paintings... she talks about how sickert never painted anything he never saw, and some of the poses appear near identical to murder scences, though this is subjective. I wont estimate the veracity of either of these... And Im not going to run out and buy a copy... though I just may... why not... I dont want to make this just a book report...

Im not going to repeat my self and my opinion of her credibility, I will say that If she 'turns out' to be correct - meaning, over decades, the naysayers quietly go away and her evidence is scrutinized and accepted; than this might be a clue as to what was missing in the original investigation and those since: The unwillingness to believe in the guilt of X, in itself can incapacitate an investigation... She did say, on TV, that Scotland Yard was (paraphrasing ) A hundred years away from the technology needed to solve these murders" ...and she added something as to how fortunate she had been in making any headway at all... she was near giving up and cutting her losses more than one point... when some minor success persuaded her to continue... yadda...

A final thought, and then I will abandon this topic altoghether or until I have something new to add... Is that the unwillingness of people to believe in Sickerts guilt, or anyone's for that matter, is the fact that the solving of a mystery (its no longer just a "crime" - nobody cares about pursuing justice ) - the solving of a mystery kills something: something that was, in fact the embodiment of a cultural icon - and an urban myth. The 'mysterious Mr. Hyde -like monster that they say killed some ladies...' etc... JTR was a symbol, with much greater meaning in the whole world than just a serial killer with a name. By tying the Ripper to a name, she commits the unforgivable crime of killing a modern mystery, as well as all the wonderful speculations on said mystery the culture had produced for over a hundred years. - Stevert

I think the whole thing belongs in the article on Cornwall, not on Sickert or Ripper, which should simply cross-reference Cornwall. I am delighted at the solution of long-standing historical mysteries myself, but I don't see that Cornwall has solved one. She's just one more in a long list of writers who have trotted out their theories on Jack the Ripper, a perennial topic for writers like the Loch Ness Monster or Napoleon. I don't see where she is "vindicated" at all.Ortolan88 PS - As for painting only what he saw (a dubious proposition), I'm pretty sure Sickert saw some naked women lying in bed. The number of artists, indeed men of all kinds, who are repulsed by their sexual attraction to women is very great indeed. They can't all be the Ripper, even though the Ripper too was (probably, presumably) repulsed by his attraction to women.

I've made a home for her theories at Patricia CornwEll (not Patricia CornwAll). (Do we need a redirect at the bad spelling? Couldn't hurt.) -- Someone else 02:58 Jan 19, 2003 (UTC)

Done, Ortolan88

Story on the BBC news website today [1] suggests that PC's theory is widely dismissed by leading experts. Another reason why we should definatly not bias her ideas! Grunners 15:11, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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This article is very, very badly structured. I suggest at least

1. moving the massive amount of other victim candidates to a separate article
2. moving the massive amount of suspects to a separate article and
3. listing the known facts here in an easy-to-read way (the m.o. of the Ripper, factors affecting the police work, mistakes they made etc.) -- Card 10:31, 6 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Texts

Could you deal with the letters and the "the Juwes..." writing? Describe them and point if some of the hypotheses describe them.

Please also explain why this and not other murders are so popular, and how the media reported it, political reactions, press theories at the time, crime gazettes,...

Can you say something about foggy nights of London?

-- what do you want to say about foggy nights? the nights of the Ripper murders weren't foggy, actually... -DN, Oct. 7, 2004

Restructuring?

This is a very interesting article (yes, I'm also interested in the Ripper) although the structure can do for a change. At any rate 21 suspects is really too many in one section. What I suggest is that certain of the least likely suspects, like Lewis Carroll, be moved to another section (presumably under "Less Likely Suspects") so that we at least halve the section. I don't believe every suspect merit a serious thought, and to weed the less likely ones out will possibly make better reading. Mandel 20:34, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

I agree that the suspect list is way too long, not only in who it covers but also the depth to which it goes. All of those should probably be moved to pages specifically about that person, like what was done with the Sickert piece. -DN, Oct. 7, 2004

And, while I'm thinking about it, it's bizarre that the "other possible victims" section has about ten times as much information on each of those people and crimes as the information the article has about the canonical victims. Essentially, the vast majority of this article is about bizarre theories claiming everyone and their dog could have been a serial killer, people who probably weren't killed by the Ripper, and fictional references. The facts about the most likely Ripper crimes and investigation are sorely lacking. -DN, Oct. 7, 2004

Controversy and Revert Battles

Mandel recently entered changes to the lead, which I reverted. He/she put them back, claiming that they were not controversial. I just removed them again, as they definitely are. Let me explain why:

First up, you can't just toss the word East End in front of Whitechapel and have it make sense. "East End" isn't part of Whitechapel, in fact it's the opposite. And cramming the extra phrase in there is redundant, as East End is already mentioned a few sentences later and has a link to the entry for that. We don't need to toss everything into the lead paragraph, and especially not when it makes the reading clumsy.

Second, the line about having killed at least five prostitutes and horribly mutilating them is outright wrong in the sense that the five that are called the "canonical" ones weren't all mutilated and weren't all necessarily prostitutes (Eddowes may not have been, according to some authors). Reading the actual Wikipedia article would have shown that. And the phrase "at least five" is quite controversial, as many experts think that one killer only murdered four, and some go as low as three. Stride, for example, didn't have mutilations and probably wouldn't have been thought of as a canonical victim if she hadn't been killed on the same night as Eddowes, along with a (now largely believed to be hoax) message being delivered to the Central News Agency claiming credit for both murders and using the "Jack the Ripper" name. Some people think Kelly was killed by a copycat trying to get away with murder by making it look like Ripper death. Putting "At least five" is taking a definitive conclusion, loses the neutral point of view, and can't be proven. It's not something that should be there.

I find it bizarre that someone who just showed up on this entry relatively recently to try to tell us that the Ripper killed *seven people* (??!?!? Where on Earth did that screwed up number ever come from?) and then changed it to five after bothering to read the article can now be claiming what is and is not controversial about the case... especially when the article already explains why it *IS* controversial. If someone can't be bothered to read the Wikipedia article or the books on the case, they shouldn't be changing the lead to the article.

Oh, and I also removed the recently added mention of From Hell, as that was already discussed later in the same section. Another case of someone not reading the thing before making changes.

-DN, Oct. 7, 2004

First of all, tone down your language. Since you claimed to be a Wikipedian, you should know the no personal attack nature of the community. One revert does not constitute a revert battle. I'll explain why my reverts are justified, at least from my perspective:

I did not claim to be a Wikipedian. That's an amusing but bizarre term which I would not use. What I do claim is to be a Ripperologist, and one of minor but growing reknown. I don't have the time to rewrite this entire article, but when I see the chance to correct errors, I do. If you look back through the history, you'll see similar IP addresses making substantive changes all the way through. I did not in any way intend to personally attack you, but you have to realize that someone coming out of nowhere who by his or her actions has not read recent books or websites about the topic or even the article itself and then makes changes to the lead, and then just changes them back after it was pointed out that they were controversial... come on, get real... That's irresponsible behavior. That's not a personal attack, that's a reasonable and fair description of someone trying to rewrite something without taking basic steps to make sure they understood what they were doing. - DN Oct. 15, 2004

Whitechapel is part of East End, true. My whole point is that it is committed in a larger vicinity. Put East End later if you would, but adding East End is more accurate in the area and scope of the killer's killing.

I don't think that's quite right. I see no problem linking to East End to put it in a larger context, but all the canonical victims were found either in Whitechapel proper, on its boundary (in the case of Chapman) or within 150 m of the boundary(Stride). In fact all the canonical victims and several non-canonical ones were killed within at most three blocks either side of Whitechapel Road, roughly running SW along it with the progression of time. Stride, incidentally, was the only canonical victim found South of Whitechapel Road, was by far the furthest from it, and the only one not actually within the district. Securiger

As for the number of 7, it was mentioned by a good number of authoritative sources, including 2 Encyclopedias: Britannica "ebi" (though the article was changed a few days ago and now the victim count reads 5) and Columbia [2]. A number of other sites also mentioned that number eg [3]. After realizing that 7 is not that uncontroversial from the article's perspective, I changed it to 5 (if 5 if not acceptable largely, then I would question why the word "canonical" is used).

The number of victims has been a matter of furious dispute, even within the original police investigation. Surprisingly there are only three victims who are universally accepted by all Ripperologists; the canonical five were those accepted by pretty well all the original investigating officers. However it is to be noted that Whitechapel was a pretty violent place at the time, and quite a few other woman were found murdered over the relevant period; some officers believed certain of these victims to also be the handiwork of the Ripper. (Some Ripperologists accept three of the Police's canonical victims, then add a couple more the Police did not include!) The Press at the time, and some pulp authors since, have claimed as many as twenty victims. This is generally seen by serious students as nothing but a grotesque form of sensationalism. In consequence, any attempt to raise the number, without careful explanation, is likely to be seen in a bad light. Securiger

Regardless of whether some horribly outdated general encyclopedias (and an occult website...?) used to say seven, if you had read the article before you (Mandel) changed the lead you'd see the "canonical" list is five, and that it's controversial. It's also a matter of being familiar with modern resources of the topic. Have you read the books referenced at the end? Looked through the websites cited in the article? HAve you done anything to give yourself any reason to be able to logically think you can claim what is or is not controversial in this case? If not, why would you just change it back without explanation? 3-7 is a more generally accepted range, with some serious theories up to 12 (including the torso murders in the count, among others). Saying "at least 5" is taking a definite opinion on it, violates NPOV, and contradicts many leading scholars in the field. - DN Oct. 15, 2004

As for the mutilation parts, I agree Stride was not mutilated, but mutilations is a feature of all Ripper murders, and most think that he was interrupted in his killing of Stride before he can do any mutilations. My reason is that in the lead paragraphs, some points about the Ripper being a mutilationist ought to be mentioned, which was what makes the murders featureful (how else do they know it is by the same person, BTW?).

There is a minority of Ripperologists who do not believe Stride was a Ripper victim. I am one of those disbelievers. I am a little baffled why so many accept Stride as a Ripper victim, because the evidence for it is all but nonexistent. Originally it was simply assumed that she was, due to the "double event" letter - but that letter is now generally regarded as a hoax. The only other point in arguing that she was a Ripper victim was that her throat was cut. However throat-cutting was a common mechanism of murder at the time, and the way her throat was cut was not similar to the Ripper's technique. In every other respect of the Ripper's MO, this crime fails to match. Still, that's my opinion, and she is widely accepted as a Ripper victim. Securiger

"Stride was not mutilated" and "mutilations is a feature of all Ripper murders" while including Stride as a Ripper victim means you are contradicting yourself, Mandel. That's one reason why you can't just say he mutilated all five victims. And with some of the other possible victims there was no other mutilations either. You can't just make a blanket statement about what the connecting feature of the murders were, when experts don't agree either. The main link seems to be location, dates and general approach to the killings, but then that still means individual ones need to de included or excluded on a case by cases basis. And the very real possibility of copycats (after the Whitechapel murders got int the news, there was a marked increase in knife and mutilation attacks around the world, some of which are clearly copycats based upon dates and convictions) means that even similar killings in the same area could possibly be by someone else. - DN Oct. 15, 2004

The whole point of making a lead is to draw attention to what goes on later in article. It does not matter if it repeats some materials from later parts of the entry; its purpose is to draw the reader to have some prior knowledge so that he / she can go on reading the article without being stupefied by the wealth of facts. What I find is the lead is generally missing in information to take people through the article (which is very long), which was why I added in those (you claimed, not so accurate) guiding info.

I agree, the lead needs some work (but then, so does a lot of the rest!) I would suggest the current information is kept (even if reworded), and that we add: the uncertainty in number of victims (perhaps with a range); refer to the large number of proposed suspects of varying quality; refer to the cultural impact; and maybe put in a little teaser by referring to the recent declassification of the Scotland Yard case archives? Securiger 15:34, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If the whole point of a lead is to draw what goes on later in the article, at the very least we need to make sure the lead doesn't contradict the article, Mandel. That's my major point. I agree the lead could be rewqorked, but, honestly, there are much more important areas to concentrate on, like the lack of info about the main killings, the apron, graffito, police investigation, newspaper coverage, etc. At the very least, if the lead gets made worse, I'll change it back. If it actually improves in some way, of course it should remain. - DN Oct. 15, 2004

What I felt was you did that make a good enough explanation for reverting my changes, and I was not fully convinced then. Had you had make your explanation in a sensible and reasoned manner, I might not have reverted the changes. Some ways of changing, (like adding, "believed by most" etc) would be probably more helpful than excising the entire segment, and than ranting very unkindly about another Wikipedian who merely don't see eye to eye concerning an entry.

Sorry you didn't feel my explanation was sufficient, but its seems extremely "sensible and reasoned" to say that it's controversial when the article itself already explained why it was controversial. It's pretty reasonable to think that someone would at least read the article before making changes to the lead, or reverting back changes that had already been edited out for being incorrect. "Believed by most" probably isn't even a NPOV statement for the number of victims, as I don't think there is general agreement on it.. DN Oct. 15, 2004

BTW I have removed the neutrality notice. The neutrality of the article is not questioned. This is just a minor dispute. Mandel 03:39, Oct 8, 2004 (UTC)