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Wikipedia:Village pump archive 2004-09-26

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GNU Free Documentation License Project Management Standard

I'm looking for volunteers to develop a GNU Free Documentation License Project Management Standard (just like the PMBOK, but possibly better). Mkoval

What efforts do you know of which may be currently being made to allow anybody and everybody with a basic web design program to easily create and share their own sites which could allow Wiki features of being able to edit a page, discuss a page, browse all recent contributions, etc. (preferably with the option in one's web/file browser/writer to just begin typing on any page one is browsing)? (I use a mac, but I'm also interested if this would be possible for others as well.) -Brett

There are many different types of wiki software you can use. If you can administer your own web server, you should be able to set them up. I recommend UseModWiki, which is one of the easiest wikis to set up. -- Stephen Gilbert

Is this the best place to ask for help with translation? I've got a few snippets of French from a 1911 EB entry that I'd like to get a proper translation for... Is there a central/standard place I can go to ask native speakers of a given language for help with small translations like this?

For my current question, see Talk:Michel de l'Hôpital.

I don't think we have a specific place to request translations, although we probably should. For your particular problem, I suggest asking Anthere, Brion VIBBER or Tarquin. -- Stephen Gilbert 12:55 Apr 9, 2003 (UTC)

Feelgood factor: the page was a single paragraph split from jumper this morning. Look at it now... http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Jumper_(computing)&diff=0&oldid=816672 -- Tarquin 10:32 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

But I created Jumper (computing) before there was any mention of them on the jumper page :) Maybe it should be renamed to Jumper (electronics).
Since both are just as relevant, it is probably easiest to use a "first served" appraoch, and create redirects as required. -- Egil 11:21 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

Concerning the above discussion about headlines: the Wikipedia:Manual of style also says that there should be no empty line between the headline and the following paragraph ("Note that with the == brackets used, no space under the headline is needed. The space should be removed."). I have seen many cases where an additional line was added, probably because the wiki text looks more organized and the headlines are easier to indentify (at least me thinks so). The above discussed United Airlines flight 93 contains a mixture at the moment ("Internal links" has an additional empty line, "External links" has not). Now my actual question :-)

Isn't it possible to remove empty lines after a headline automatically? I see two advantages: the headlines are IMHO easier to identify with the additional empty line, and we get a consistent layout for free. Are there any disadvantages I am not aware of? The only thing I see is that the code has to written and that it costs a bit CPU time (which should be neglectable). Is this the right place to discuss this, or should I better post it to one of the wikipedia mailing lists? -- mkrohn 11:39 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)


Changing_of_the_Guard is less than a stubb and rather silly. Should it be removed? Cgs 17:01 Apr 10, 2003 (BST)

Please unprotect the following pages: 

 GNU FDL
 Wikipedia:Copyrights
 Wikipedia:Naming conventions
 Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines
 Wikipedia:Policy on permanent deletion of pages

Thank you. -◈¡◈

The first two can't be -- in fact they should be locked to all edits, even sysops. Please sign with a name composed of letters that can be read and pronounced. -- Tarquin 16:35 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)
When you say that the first two "can't", what do you mean? Are you saying that there is some sort of technical bug in the wikisoftware that prevents these two from being unprotected, or are you just expressing your opinion? My request for all five of the above to be unprotected still stands. Regarding my signature, I have already changed it once specifically at your request, and I am happy with it as is. -◈¡◈
It can't be edited because unlike most articles in Wiki it is imported from an existing work (the GNU project), not created by Wikis. And if it could be edited a user could change the license for the entire site - not good. User:Cgs 21:34, April 10 2003, BST
The text of the GDFL can't be edited. That's why can't. -- Tarquin 19:56 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)
Those are nice factoids, Cgs and Tarquin, but they are irrelevant to my request. You seem to be assuming that one of the above links contains the GFDL when in fact none of them do. Since that is not an issue, will someone kindly unprotect them? -◈¡◈
GNU FDL should go to the article on that rather than our policy page -- I've done that. I'll leave the other matters for the other sysops to deal with. I don't like talking to squiggles. tarquin out. -- Tarquin 22:07 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)
Well, gee, thanks I guess. That was the exact edit I was going to make to that page had you unprotected it as I requested. God forbid a mere mortal should deign to improve a page watched over by the almighty Tarquin. I'll post the rest of my request again below. -◈¡◈
I believe that the GNU FDL redirect page was protected because the "please note" section underneath the edit box linked to GNU FDL., so if someone changed the redirect it could have legal consequences. The text under the edit box now links directly to Wikipedia:Copyrights, so I think it can now be unprotected. Have I missed something? Martin
The link at the bottom of every page goes to GNU FDL. Should it go to Wikipedia:Copyrights as well? --Brion 23:30 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)
sounds like a good idea. We could linkify the "GFDL" text at the foot of the edit box too. -- Tarquin 09:50 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC) (thanks for the sarcasm, squiggle.)

It would be good if the wikipedia namespace would be included:

Even when Wikipedia's internal full-text search facility is on, a title search option would be useful (faster if here are many hits in the full text).

Patrick 17:10 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

I have been trying to change the title of existing articles "comparative" and "superlative" to "grammatical comparative" and "grammatical superlative" by wikifying them to that effect as I feel that the names are too ambiguous. Is there a quicker way than changing all links the new versions? Can I have some ideas on this from the experts?Dieter Simon

What other meanings of "comparative" and "superlative" are there? what other pages will want those titles? -- Tarquin 21:14 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

I thought it would look more relevant to the subject of grammar than a referenc to a thing itself that is judged by comparison or is relative to other things as being better or the best. I do see your point though. ==Dieter Simon 22:18 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

I propose to use Xvid with Ogg/Vorbis sound as the standard video format for Wikipedia. Any advice ?

http://www.xvid.org/

Ericd 21:43 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

Tarquin has addressed one of my issues, but the remaining still exist. Will someone please unprotect the following pages: 

 Wikipedia:Copyrights
   (See below)
 Wikipedia:Naming conventions
   done
 Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines
   done
 Wikipedia:Policy on permanent deletion of pages
   done

Thank you. -◈¡◈

Wikipedia:Copyrights sets out the legal terms of use for this site. As such, we're a little finicky about it. ;) That one stays protected. --Brion 23:04 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)
Thanks for those three. -◈¡◈

Changing GNU FDL to version 1.2

This reminds me. A while back I suggested we change Wikipedia:Text of the GNU Free Documentation License to be version 1.2 rather than 1.1 (and appropriately modify wikipedia:copyrights, of course. Nobody commented on this, negatively or positively, so I'm going to be bold and just do it if I don't get any responses this time round. Consider yourselves warned! :) Martin

What would the consequences of that be? Would it no longer be possible to distribute pages edited after the change under version 1.1 of the GFDL? --Brion 23:30 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)

Suppose we make the change on May 1.

  • It would be possible to distribute versions prior to May 1 under version 1.1 or version 1.2 or any later version. This is because when you grant a license under the GFDL you can't take it back again.
  • It would be possible to distribute versions after May 1 under version 1.2 or any later version, but not under version 1.1.

The changes are minor fixes and clarifications - closing a few loopholes here and there.

Consequences: if Fred's Document has been released under the GFDL and he specified version 1.1 and he didn't specify "or any later version" (which is the standard) then we can't add it to wikipedia. However, we couldn't add it before either, because it would invalidate our own "or any later version" text. For material that says it is licensed under the GFDL without specifying a version, the license says "If the Document does not specify a version number of this License, you may choose any version ever published (not as a draft) by the Free Software Foundation." - so we can happilly use it under version 1.2 or later. Martin


Number pages

It's great to see these... but how far are you guys planning on going? You do know that there is no smallest unintersting number, right? ;-) -- Tarquin 09:50 Apr 11, 2003 (UTC)

Yes, see Talk:Sixteen. I put a note at twenty suggesting we do increments of ten from there on (up to one hundred, presumably). Since interesting numbers appear all over the place, one idea is to collect (and redirect as necessary) all numbers from 20 to 29 in the twenty article, 30-39 in the thirty, and so on. Which means that "twenty" really means "twenty-something", although I would suggest still calling it "twenty". This should be extended so that over hundred it would be by the hundreds, then by the thousands etc. -- Egil 06:01 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

I agree. Susan Mason

Maybe the answer to my question is explained somewhere, but I haven't found it. Here's my situation...I want to create a wiki-style music almanac for the punk scene in my town. It would allow local musicians to post their band's history and their upcoming and past shows, etc. Such information wouldn't really fit into the wikipedia scheme, therefore I want to make a separate almanac. I have a web host to place such an environment. But how do I create the environment. I assume I have to install software. Where do I get the software? How do I install it? I have plenty of experience using windows, but very limited experience using unix. But I could get help from a friend if the directions were user-friendly. Thanks, Kingturtle 01:52 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

I recommend you check out Wiki:WikiFarms for some sites that provide wiki and wiki-like hosting. If you've got the machine and the time to spend on setting up your own wiki server, I personally recommend UseModWiki, which runs in Perl and can be run on Windows as well as Unix. It's easy to set up and the syntax will be familiar, as Wikipedia used to run on UseMod. It's also possible to set up your own wiki using our software, but it's quite finicky and requires more additional stuff (mysql, php with certain configuration options; a lot of Wikipedia-specific text hardcoded into the interface you'd have to get rid of, etc). --Brion 03:06 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
Tsk, tsk, Kingturtle. I answer this exact question higher up on this very page! :) I recommend UseModWiki as well. Your web host must provide cgi for you. -- Stephen Gilbert
Thanks. Although reading through all different wiki options is quite overwhelming. Which software would be most like the wikipedia software? And what exactly would be entailed in the setup? Truth is, I really don't know squat when it comes to installing and running such things. But I am willing to learn. Kingturtle 07:00 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

Is there a way to force the TeX interpreter to make nice large images instead of small ones? A page I recently created is an aesthetic mess due to the inconsistency. Cyan 06:07 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

You can set how TeX is shown on your prefs page (you're wanting "Always render PNG" under "Rendering math"). --Camembert
Ah, I understand now. -- Cyan
I've found that you can force an individual <math> formula to be a PNG (for people with default preferences) by putting \, at the end. --Zundark 11:33 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

Of course it's an aesthetic mess. I tried to tell you people,<math> is ugly. -- Tim Starling 06:02 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

a point raised in that email: "As for other improvements: perhaps you could find some way to convert most formulas to ASCII art and use that for the ALT text." -- an important aspect of ALT text is that is accessible to those who cannot see the images. I don't think ASCII art would satisfy that requirement. -- Tarquin 17:24 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)
That idea of mine is long since dead and buried -- it's technically impossible anyway since ALT text cannot be multi-line. Why are you digging it up? This is why I gave up on that discussion: so much unconstructive argument. -- Tim Starling 01:04 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
Sorry. -- Tarquin 09:16 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

How do you put a caption on a picture? -- Zoe

On or under? Can you point to an example of the effect you want? -- Infrogmation 04:47 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)
Joseph Stalin, for example. -- Zoe
This is how I would do it: click on the link to edit Joseph Stalin, copy the relevant source code, paste it into the article where I wanted a picture with a caption, and change the appropriate bits of the code.
--Paul A 09:14 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

Next question: How can a sysop delete an image? For example, [:Image:Ulmo001.gif], which appears to be someone's copy of a background tile. -- Zoe

On the image page [1], there's a (del) link. -- Notheruser 06:35 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)
Oy. Thanks. I was looking at the hot links with all of the other ones. -- Zoe
Yeah, the interface for working with image pages is pretty uglified. :) Do not use the "delete this page" button for images, as that only deletes the page. The (del) link for the most recent revision should delete the image file and the page. However note that images deleted in this way are gone, and can't be restored unless someone kept a backup. If you delete an image, please save a copy to your computer first just in case. --Brion 07:22 Apr 13, 2003 (UTC)

Who pays for wikipedia and why? I mean, I know that it's Bomis, but why does Bomis do it? Does Bomis make money from wikipedia either directly or indirectly, or is the cost of the server incidental to Bomis, or what? Also, could this answered on some FAQ such as wikipedia:overview FAQ, since I doubt that I am the only one curious about this. -- AdamRaizen

Jimbo Wales, the majority owner of Bomis, pays for Wikipedia out of the kindness of his heart. Bomis makes no money from it, and Jimbo has promised never to run ads here. See Wikipedia and Bomis for more information. There has been talk from time to time of starting a non-profit organisation. -- Tim Starling 00:51 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)


After adding ru: (Russian) and la: (Latin) links here (Wikipedia:Recentchanges, from whose Talk page this is copied), I've thought about it a bit more, and think both of them having a link would be rather unjustified. But then, I started trying to figure out which one (if not both) should go, and I found a little dilemma. Should "popularity" for the purpose of which languages get links on major pages be based on how many people speak the language, or how active its Wikipedia is? Russia (obviously!) has more speakers, but the Latin Wikipedia (much to my surprise) is several times more active (mostly with German people, oddly enough). So, in a case like that, which one, if either, should stay? And even if it's the general consensus both ought to go, we should still work out which way to figure "popularity" anyway, for future clarity, if it hasn't already been worked out. And if it has been worked out, could I get a pointer to it? -- John Owens 04:35 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

I've just read User talk:J.J. where it says that use of Tables in pic coding dispays the pic totally incorrectly in some browsers. If this is so, why have I had no complaints about my pic coding, which uses Tables? I've used it on approx 120 articles so far, mostly France, gemstones and aircraft. For an example, look at CH-46 Sea Knight.

If my coding is unacceptable I need to know real soon so that I can slowly change to the new coding. Comments, please. (I have IE5 with Windows).
For other examples, all my pics are listed on User:Arpingstone
-- Adrian Pingstone 08:42 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

I think a preferred way of displaying the image+caption is to use div+CSS like this (in the example of CH-46 Sea Knight):

<div style="float:right;width:270px;text-align:center;margin:5px">
[[image:sea.knight.cv-46.250pix.jpg]]<br>
''October 20th 2002: members of the 22nd Marine Expeditionary Unit board a CH-46 Sea Knight helicopter on USS Saipan, during beach-landing training.''<br>
[[media:sea.knight.cv-46.750pix.jpg|Click here for larger version]]
</div>
It definitely makes the code smaller and neater, and should display the same in any browser that supports CSS. --Minesweeper 09:32 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
see m:Image pages for a proposal to make this all a whole dang lot simpler -- Tarquin 09:40 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)

Either my brain is malfunctioning, or something bizarre is occurring. Go to hip hop and click on the link to It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (right above the rise of gangsta rap and below the Run-D.M.C. cover). I just wrote the article on ITaNoMtHUB and clicked what links here. The only one listed was hip hop, so I went to Public Enemy to link. Public Enemy already linked to It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back, which was a redirect I apparently made a few days ago (presumably, I thought there was already an article to redirect to). After following the redirect to make sure it worked, I was confused because what links here had only listed hip hop and no other pages. Further experimentation has revealed that going to It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back from hip hop reveals only one what links here, while going there via the redirect lists several (only one of which uses the redirect in question). Tuf-Kat

P.S. going to It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back from the Village Pump gives you the same results as using the redirect from Public Enemy.
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