Talk:Red Ensign

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Talk:Red Ensign/Archive 1

Appeal to AndyL to delete the "disputed" Red Ensign linkage

AndyL,

I am sincerely asking, will you please delete(in its entirity) your Facist links to the Red Ensign?

Please.

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 19:57, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, your attempt at intimidation via personal attacks has not changed my mind. And yes, it is a personal attack because you are not criticising my arguments but bringing my person into the argument. You have consistently failed to name any non-nazi organzations that advocate the restoration of the Canadian Red Ensign as the national flag. Instead you have resorted to trolling and posting irrelevent snippets from various things on the internet that have come up via google. If you like we can ask Snowspinner who resolved the LaRouche impasse to intervene here. As for your pesonal behaviour I am taking that to the Arbitration Committee. AndyL 23:45, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I have said earlier that I have no problem qualifying the remarks regarding fascist groups by adding something like "Most supporters of the red ensign are individual monarchists and traditionalists, including some branches of the Royal Canadian Legion, who do not support the attempts by fascist groups to appropriate the banner," however as the advocacy of the red ensign by fascist groups is a) factual and well documented and b) of interest, I see no reason to censor that information in order to protect the sensibilities of other red ensign advocates. AndyL 01:45, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Talk page

I would like anybody new to the wikipedia here to read this over, it would probably help alot. [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Wants you to vote!]] 01:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What a stupid reference

This passage from the article:

In recent years many far-right and neo-Nazi groups in Canada, particularly those affiliated to Paul Fromm, have adopted the Canadian Red Ensign as a symbol of their movement meant to emphasise what they assert is their adherence to traditional Canadian values.

Um, OK. So my cousins are fascists? They fly the Red Ensign outside their house. I see them in lots o' places when I've driven around southern Ontario. (Yes, I can tell the difference between the Red Ensign and the Ontario provincial flag.)

My point is that this sentence should not exist in isolation. It is common in Canada to see the Red Ensign, just as it is common in America to see non-50 star US flags (I see 13, 48, and 45-star ones routinely, and the occasional 15-star 15-stripe one). This should be mentioned somehow. The way the article is written now is to imply that the Red Ensign is the Canadian equivalent of the Confederate flag, which is wildly unfair. A2Kafir 02:02, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As I said above I have no problem with qualifying the reference in order to make it clear that many individual Canadians fly the red ensign for traditional or historical reasons or out of monarchist sentiment and that most would oppose the attempt by fascist groups to appropriate the symbol. However, I think the attempt by fascist groups to appropriate the symbol merits a mention particularly as people start wondering why photos of skinheads carrying a red ensign are popping up around the internet and on tvAndyL 02:21, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Interesting: http://www.ghostofaflea.com/archives/002405.html It seems the fellow who runs this blog tried to have the Red Ensign on his web blog, along with others, but he had to discontinue it because "bigoted morons are linking to this piece as part of a crusade to link the Red Ensign to a racist agenda." Hmmm. Definitey worth a mention and a link. BTW, Canada has a monarch, so isn't being a Canadian monarchist redundant? And what about Canadian military veterans? My cousin was captured at the Dieppe Raid when he fought under the Red Ensign. Many veterans' parades use it. Isn't that quite a bit more notable as a few nutcase racists using it? A2Kafir 02:33, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Another interesting post: http://fim.ondragonswing.com/archives/006595.html A2Kafir 02:37, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would read "many far-right and neo-Nazi groups in Canada have adopted the Canadian Red Ensign as a symbol" as meaning that everyone who flies the Red Ensign is a fascist. Also many other Wikipedia articles on symbols make note of their co-option by the far right e.g. celtic cross, sun cross. - SimonP 02:32, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Heads up

OK, it turns out there is a concerted leftist effort to call the Red Ensign racist. It is the lead link on: http://againstallflags.blogspot.com/ at the moment. THIS definitely merits mention. A2Kafir 02:48, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Cause and effect. The use of the Canadian Red Ensign by far right and neo-nazi groups in Canada over the past few years has led to the response you cite. If they weren't using it there wouldn't be a "concerted effort", leftist or otherwise, to call the red ensign anything other than an historical banner. As for the query on monarchists, living in a monarchy does not automatically make you a monarchist. In fact, the number of Canadians who are either strongly monarchist or strongly anti-monarchist is relatively small. Most people are passive on the question but yes, those who are passionately monarchist (eg members of the Monarchist League of Canada), are more likely to support the Red Ensign a traditional emblem but not even the MLC or the Royal Canadian Legion call for the Canadian Red Ensign to be restored as Canada's national flag, only the aforementioned far right neo-nazi groups do that at present. AndyL 03:01, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Flying or displaying the flag is a bit different than saying it should supplant the Maple Leaf. The page, as written, implys that many people flying the flag are racists. It should, at a minimum, mention veterans etc. as discussed above, AND the leftist backlash against the Red Ensign prompted by a few, very small racist groups. A2Kafir 03:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

One blog entry does not a "leftist backlash" make. The number of fascist websites displaying the red ensign are far greater than the number (one) of leftist websites that decry this practice. As I've said, though, I agree that the attempted appropriation of the Canadian Red Ensign by fascists should be placed in context and that it should be made clear that most people who display the red ensign are not fascists. However, this should not preclude mentioning tha there *is* an attempt by fascists to appropriate the symbol. AndyL 03:10, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

By a small group of them, maybe. Is there a citation you can find where they openly proclaim themselves and say "and the Red Ensign is our symbol!"? One snapshot of a few nutters isn't enough. For all I know, that was staged for the cameraman to smear the image of the flag. A2Kafir 03:16, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Flying or displaying the flag is a bit different than saying it should supplant the Maple Leaf. " This is true. AFAIK the only groups that advocate the replacement of the maple leaf with the red ensign are neo-nazi and fascist groups. This should be mentioned along with the fact that many other people who are not fascist display the red ensign for reasons of tradition and history while accepting the maple leaf as the national flag. AndyL 03:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

In my POV, AndyL is attempting to label the Red Ensign Facist Symbol

AndyL,

I openly accuse you AndyL of POV-pushing, with the intent to label the old Canadian Red Ensign a Facist Symbol. I will fight your attempt tooth-and-nail.

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 03:03, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Make sure you are well aware of the Three revert rule. - SimonP 03:18, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

Specifics

File:Fromm paul ensign.jpg

Paul Fromm features this photograph at the beginning of his videos and in many of his publications

File:Scummarch.jpg

March in London, Ontario, April 2003 by neo-fascists protesting Canada's new hate crimes law

File:Scumlogo.jpg

logo of the anti-immigrant, nativist Canada First Immigration Reform Committee featuring the Canadian Red Ensign

See this blog entry Red Ensign: Flag of Cranks and this one While this website does have a definite "leftist" POV the citations it lists are correct.I don't think the blog merits mentioning in the article but it could be listed as an external link and described as a "left wing anti-Red Ensign" site. The following far-right nativist and neo-nazi groups now advocate the adoption of the red ensign and Canada's national flag:

• Autonomous Citizens of Canada - Niagara a "European heritage" anti-multiculturalism group.
• Canadian Confederate Friendship Society a white supremacist outfit

These groups are in addition to the aforementioned Canadian Heritage Alliance (neo-Nazi group) which offers Red Ensigns for sale, Canada First Immigration Committee/Canadians for Foreign Aid Reform/Canadian Association for Free Expression (Paul Fromm) and the Northern Alliance (neo-Nazi). AndyL 18:37, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

See also this interview carried on the white supremacist webcast American Dissident Voices hosted by Kevin Strom of the National Alliance. AndyL 03:21, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

---

Hello SimonP,

Thank you very much for bringing that to my attention. I appreciate that alot.

Make sure you are well aware of the Three revert rule. - SimonP 03:18, Dec 14, 2004 (UTC)

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 03:28, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Don, if we lift page protection do you agree not to revert the page so we can modify the article as described above or are you completely unwilling to compromise?AndyL 03:34, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

AndyL,

Why would ordinary Canadians NOT want the Red Ensign re-instated? I do. The present Canadian Maple Leaf Flag is a Canada French Republican Tri-colour.The Dominion of Canada is not a Republic. It is a Constitutional-Monarchy, and a member of the British Commonwealth. Canada's present Maple Leaf Flag is French Republican. It does not represent English-Canadians. Not at all.

No. I will NOT agree to any linkage of the Red Ensign to Facist groups. It is my opinion that your basis for advocating that observation is biased, heavily slanted, and not significant.

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 03:54, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This isn't relevant to the main point of discussion, but wouldn't a flag have to have three colours to be a tricolour? CJCurrie 04:14, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A2kafir asks: "Is there a citation you can find where they openly proclaim themselves and say "and the Red Ensign is our symbol!"? One snapshot of a few nutters isn't enough. For all I know, that was staged for the cameraman to smear the image of the flag. A2Kafir 03:16, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Melissa Guille, leader of the white supremacist Canadian Heritage Alliance writes: Fellow Nationalists! Canadian Heritage Alliance would like to wish you a happy Dominion Day! May your celebrations be joyous and remind people this is the day we honour the Red Ensign and the Canada our ancestors built.

The Canadian Heritage Alliance sells the red ensign online here

And check out this page form their site: [1] from Paul Fromm

“Fly the Red Ensign for Freedom”

…and that is what several groups did who came together peacefully to march on Sunday April 27.03, demonstrating their disapproval of the proposed Hate-Free Policy threatening the basic rights of freedom for Londoners.

The Canadian Association for Free Expression, Northern Alliance, Canadian Heritage Alliance, and supporters marched proudly beneath the Red Ensign to peacefully protest Debbie Lee’s discriminatory and fanatical “Hate Free Policy” that aims to limit the activities and maintain a database on citizens who do not fit the political agenda of the day.

As the groups marched, they were closely monitored by the London Youth and Hate Crimes Unit. 

Sgt. Don McKinnon and Const. Christine Weston (possibly Terry Wilson’s replacement) spent their Sunday afternoon taking pictures of the citizens who had gathered for the march. 

Why would a free speech march agitate the London police enough to send out and pay two officers to document the activities and the people present? Free speech is a basic right for ALL citizens in a Western country.

When did free speech become criminal? Political police?

 

The fanatical Const. Christine Weston has decided that she should investigate Melissa Guille of the Canadian Heritage Alliance further, which included contacting clients of her freelance web host/design business. 

Guille is a mother and respectable citizen.  She has no criminal record.  So, why would Weston want to use her badge to arouse suspicion in Guille’s clients?  Is there a shortage of violent criminal activity?  The impression Sgt. McKinnon and Const. Weston are making is that violent crime is not a threat to the community (of course they can keep weapons)...but god forbid should you dissent from political correctness.     

It’s obvious the goal is no longer serving and protecting the community, instead it’s watching for dissent.  Doesn’t that make you feel safer?

Check out this photo the rally also made the local newspaper AndyL 03:57, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

news report

File:Ensignlfp.JPG

Click here to enlarge

April 28, 2003 Marchers protest hate-free proposal By Joe Belanger, Free Press reporter

A former Toronto teacher fired for associating with white supremacists marched through downtown London yesterday to protest the city's proposal for a hate-free community. Paul Fromm, director of the Canadian Association for Free Expression joined seven other people, including representatives of two white supremacist grouops - Northern Alliance and Canadian Heritage Alliance - in the march from the cenotaph at Victoria park (click photo of newspaper article to read more)

File:Ensignmarch.JPG

Another photo from the march

AndyL 04:04, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Amusing to me to see the signs. They just say "Free speech for all." What's wrong with that? In the States, nothing. But I remember when Detroit newspapers were treated as contraband at the Canadian border because they reported on some trial in Canada that some judge said the people were verboten to know about. Sounded a bit, well, fascist to me. But I guess I'm just a dumb American. :) A2Kafir 04:28, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

A Possible Solution

My thoughts:

(i) The fact that far-right and neo-nazi groups in Canada have attempted to adopt (or co-opt) the Red Ensign as "their" symbol is indisputable, and has been documented in several sources. This information is historically significant, both as regards the evolving "cultural significance" of the flag, and as an insight into the propaganda methods of Canada's far-right networks. It is, therefore, worthy of inclusion on Wikipedia.

(ii) Obviously, the Red Ensign is not used *exclusively* by far-right and neo-nazi groups in Canada. I gather from the above discussion that no-one is opposed to qualifying the current passage so as indicate that many individuals outside the political fringe have a personal connection to the flag, and are willing display it on regular occasions.

(iii) My solution would be to create a sub-section of the article entitled "The Red Ensign in Recent Decades" (or "The Red Ensign since 1960", or "The Red Ensign as a Political Symbol", or other words to that effect). This sub-section could include (i) John Diefenbaker's attempts to establish/retain the RE as Canada's national flag, (ii) efforts by conservative-but-not-far-right groups like the Orange Order to mobilize support for the RE in the 1960s, (iii) the continuing use of the flag by monarchists and others in the political "mainstream", and (iv) the recent use of the flag by far-right groups (+ whatever else may be appropriate).

This approach would allow all relevant information to be covered, while also ensuring that no sensible reader would come away from the article thinking that *only* fringe groups in Canada, and their supporters, still display the RE.

Does this seem reasonable? CJCurrie 04:06, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Much better than what's there now. A2Kafir 04:16, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

This would seem to require an article on the Canadian ensign in and of itself. I've created a Canadian Red Ensign as the beginning for such an article though I haven't yet sectioned it. Feel free to develop as necessary but I'd appreciate if, in the spirit of compromise, editors refrain from removing material they disagree with. It would make more sense to contextualize than to censor. Let's try to avoid the need for article protection. AndyL 04:57, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Addendum: Now that a separate page for Canada has been created, I don't think it's necessary to include the Fromm reference on the main RE page. CJCurrie 05:34, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

News Flash: Aryan Nations Fly the USA Flag

Aryan Nations Fly USA Flag

http://images.google.com/images?q=naziandoldglory.jpg&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi

By AndyL's absurdly low bench-mark, the USA Flag page here on Wikipedia, should have the USA Flag linked to the Aryan Nations.

Sieg Heil.

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 04:09, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Point well taken. Nutters in the US use the present and past US flags in their parades. Yet no one but the whacko leftists in the USA consider the flag a symbol of fascists.A2Kafir 04:15, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The stars and stripes is the national flag of the US and is thus used by literally hundreds of thousands of groups and hundreds of millions of people therefore use by one particular group is not significant. The Canadian Red Ensign is not a national flag and is not widely used thus those groups that do use it are worth noting, particularly those groups that advocate it as Canada's national flag. Don is using a false analogy by comparing use of the red ensign by neo-nazis with use of the stars and stripes. AndyL 04:25, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Evolving Cultural Significance?

CJCurie,

Two "r"s, that should be. As in Arthur Currie, not as in Marie Curie. CJCurrie 04:42, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What cultural significance? Would you advocate linking the USA Flag page to its USAGE by the ARYAN NATIONS?

The difference is that the US flag is currently used as a national flag, and is regularly displayed in public by a large percentage of the American population. Although the Red Ensign is hardly obscure in Canada, it is *not* displayed by the majority of the population on a regular basis. (I suspect that the vast majority of Canadians have no strong opinions about the RE one way or the other).

When far-right groups co-opt a cultural symbol like the Red Ensign for their own purposes, it becomes notable. The intent of Fromm's group is to use the RE as a tool of cultural exclusivity -- and this *is* significant to the evolving cultural meaning of the symbol.

Look ... I wouldn't argue for a moment that *everyone* who displays the Red Ensign is a fascist, or entertains far-right tendencies. My family used to have a Red Ensign on display, beside a Canadian flag, at our summer camp area (the flags might still be there; I haven't visited in a while). I always took this as a display of the evolving history of the nation, not as indicating any far-right tendencies. While I don't personally have any strong feelings toward the RE, I'll admit to being somewhat irritated that a far-right group would co-opt an historical symbol from Canada's past (even an exclusively "British" one) for their own purposes. All the same, the fact that they've done so strikes me as noteworthy.

My suggestion for a compromise solution still stands. CJCurrie 04:42, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Aryan Nations USAGE of USA Flag

http://images.google.com/images?q=naziandoldglory.jpg&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wi

Well, would you?

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 04:16, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Also check out this interview with the white supremacist magazine National Vanguard. KAS is US Neo-Nazi leader Kevin Strom of the National Alliance, PF is Paul Fromm:

KAS: Another thing I remember from our trips across Canada was the red ensign flag of Canada, flying everywhere; the flag with the Canadian shield in the main red section, and the British Union Jack in the upper left. That flag symbolized a connection, a common heritage of our two countries, the Anglo-Saxon heritage which is still commemorated in Hawaii's flag and which was also used in the American 'Grand Union' flag as well. Now that red ensign has been replaced by the maple leaf flag in Canada, yet you, at your protests and at your meetings, still use the red ensign. What's the reason for that? Can you explain the symbolism of that flag?

PF: That flag, as far as we are concerned, is the flag of the real Canada. And as a technical point, it was never actually delisted as Canada's flag. They added the maple leaf flag, and most people consider that the new flag of Canada, but the old red ensign was never decommissioned or delisted -- so it is also an official flag. This change was made in 1965 -- isn't that coincidental? -- the year they changed the immigration policy.

My analysis of that is that when you're about to utterly change a country, you don't want the old symbols around, because the symbols will clash with the new order you're trying to create. Their criticism of the old red ensign was that it stressed our European heritage -- you've got the Union Jack in the top left, which correctly emphasized the fact that our legal system and our political system derives from Britain. Of course, multiculturalism is very uncomfortable with that: We're supposed to believe that everybody contributed equally; the natives of the Congo, the denizens of Samoa, all contributed every bit as much to Canada as the founding European people. So the old symbolism was inconvenient.

Also the crest was filled with reminders of our European heritage -- it contained the crests of the French, the Irish, and the Scots; and then the three maple leaves joined together at the bottom of the crest, which were originally green maple leaves, symbolized the founding European peoples. This can be read a number of ways, but the founding European peoples -- the French, the English, and then the others who came later, all united to create the one.

It was a very powerful and very dramatic flag. I believe that the real reason it was changed in favor of the new one was not to have a reminder there of what Canada was.

KAS: Does the red ensign still fly anywhere in Canada?

PF: Oh, yes. We fly it at all our protests, we fly it at meetings, and a lot of our members wear it as a cap badge or a jacket badge. We've got a lot of young people, and it's become the symbol you'll see from coast to coast. And other young people who look at it know what it means. And it's interesting that it is most popular among people who were born long after it had stopped being used as Canada's flag.

KAS: So, in a way, it's a symbol of both tradition and rebellion.

PF: Yes, exactly. A symbol of tradition and rebellion. A little bit like the battle flag of the Confederacy is in your country.

Summation of ArmChairVexillologistsDon POV

(1). AndyL is a left-wing crank.

(2). AndyL views the Red Ensign as a symbol of Hate.

(3). AndyL wants to use Wikipedia's high profile, and respected creditibilty, to spread his "Hate Label" across the planet.

I will not sit by passively, and allow AndyL to use Wikipedia as his "personal Pulpit."

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 04:29, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hello CJCurrie,

I'm very sorry that I mispelled your name. It is Currie with "rr", got it man. My spelling is not best at times. Sorry.

Next up,

The difference is that the US flag is currently used as a national flag, and is regularly displayed in public by a large percentage of the American population. Although the Red Ensign is hardly obscure in Canada, it is *not* displayed by the majority of the population on a regular basis. (I suspect that the vast majority of Canadians have no strong opinions about the RE one way or the other).

I personally do not fly the Canadian Maple Leaf Flag. I view it as a "French Republican Tri-colour" that was froced upon the Canadian Nation as the result of the political dirty tricks of the Liberal Pearson Goverment. I'm only in my 30s, the Maple Leaf Flag is older than me. But I know my Flags, and I've done extensive research on this.

What AndyL is trying to do is to build up the Canadian Maple Leaf Flag as he terms it as the Multi-culturalist Flag of Canada. I view it as the French Rag that Pearson snookered us into buying (the lying SOB). AndyL wants to hurt the old Red Ensign by labeling it a symbol of Hate. If AndyL hurts the Red Ensign, he then indirectly builds up the Canadian Maple Leaf.

That is my opinion, on the present state of the dispute, between AndyL and I.

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 04:58, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think you've misinterpreted at least one or two points on this issue.

I won't go into your comments on the origins of the Canadian flag, though suffice it to say that I have some difficulties with your analysis.

What's more important to the present discussion is your apparent belief that AndyL is attempting to "hurt" the Red Ensign so as to "build up" the Maple Leaf. While I can't speak for his intentions, I can find two basic problems with your logic.

First, I'm not at all convinced that it "hurts" the RE in a broader, cultural sense to point out that it's currently being co-opted by the far-right. The cultural meaning of the flag has changed over time, and I suspect that it means rather different things to rather different people these days -- at best, it's a glimpse into a shared national past; at worst, a sign of cultural belligerence. Pointing out the use of the RE by groups like Fromm's does *not* nullify other possible meanings of the flag. I've heard non-white monarchists such as Anne Cools argue that the RE should be taken as a symbol of cultural diversity and toleration (she specifically referenced the British Empire's more enlightened policy on the slave trade than that of the US in the 19C, when I spoke with her on this matter a few years ago). I'm certain that she'd consider Fromm's use of the flag to be near-blasphemy. If you or others want to create (or promote) a more "culturally open" meaning of the RE to combat Fromm and his lot, go ahead. But this doesn't mean that the use of the symbol by Fromm and others should go *unreported*.

Second, I think you're making a serious logical error by assuming that anything which "hurts" the Red Ensign is meant to promote the Red Maple Leaf. The current discussion has *absolutely, postively nothing* to do with the present Canadian Flag. I mean nothing. At all. To assume that there is such a connection is to indulge in a false dichotomy on the situation. CJCurrie 05:28, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The Red Ensign, The Grand Union, The Hawaii Flag, and The Blue Ensign=

They are all Flags of the British Navy Jack Design. Canada, USA, Australia, New Zealand, and Hawaii (the Sandwich Islands) where all British Colonies. We all share a common culture, the English-Speaking Culture.

the flag with the Canadian shield in the main red section, and the British Union Jack in the upper left. That flag symbolized a connection, a common heritage of our two countries, the Anglo-Saxon heritage which is still commemorated in Hawaii's flag and which was also used in the American 'Grand Union' flag as well.

The above Flag observations are correct.

ArmChairVexillologistDonArmchairVexillologistDon 05:34, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)